I shoped that shop back in the early 80's and that got me back into the hobby, still buy from them on occasion at their new location via online. Still the best place to buy from Intermountain that I have found, almost like buying direct only at discount but you have to be fast as they sell out quick.
Howard ZaneAt a good train show, one does not deal with just the above idiot as mentioned, but sometimes over a hundred dealers and individuals with all kinds of products and people skills.
As you know its usually the same dealers at each show and even if there are 150 or more most train show attendees have their favorite dealers due to many things a good prices,willing to work with their customers and he always has fresh stock unlike some that lugs the same goodies in worn boxes to every show.
I usually look up my two favorite dealers first before looking over the other dealers tables simply because they are solid dealers with quality used cars and locomotives as well as newer fresh stock with attractive prices.
There was one dealer I always went to his tables first because he always had quality custom painted Athearn and Atlas cars and locomotives as well as custom made freight car loads at reasonable prices. He retired and closed his business. IMHO that was a great lost.
I walk by the junk dealers(you know the type) without a glance and breeze by the higher price dealers like they're not even there. I do look for clubs and modelers selling their excess models.
BTW.Some of the best deals is found under the front of the dealer's tables.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The hobby itself is its own worst enemy. There are millions of items available and most in the hobby are looking for one specific engine with a particular road number without an antennae. When this is the case the hobby shop would have to order it anyway, you can look thru 50 tables with boxes stacked to the cieling at a show to find one, or just google it and get the best price.
I do like to go to the shows here and look around for deals on buildings or random freight cars. Sad that the brass sellers do not show up anymore.
Steve
ChoopsSad that the brass sellers do not show up anymore. Steve
Many of the brass dealers reached a certain age and retired or passed away...some like Mountaineer Brass (Thomas Cornwall), both husband and wife passed away due to cancer. Also Balls of Brass (Jon Winston) passed away due to cancer. Peach Creek Hobbies (John Glaab) simply retired. Then the internet made it somewhat easier for some brass owners to cut out the dealer and sell directly to other prospective buyers via Ebay...the long and the short of it is there are just less brass dealers of all persuasions, basement or otherwise, around today.
I can name maybe 4 brass dealers whom I would trust to do business with that are still around, and even they are capable of making an honest mistake and possibly representing something as being more "mint" than it actually is. Some things are difficult to see.
John
I might be right up there with you as to hobby shops visited. I traveled extensively in the 80s and 90s doing tech service at customers all over the US. Most of the trips involved overnight stays. After visiting the customer, rather than just hanging around the hotel room, I would get out the Yellow Pages (remember them) and find the local hobby shops. Most of the people behind the counter were very nice, but growing discouraged. As one guy told me, "You know how to make a small fortune with a hobby store? Start with a large fortune."
John,
Only 4 reputable dealers? I hope I'm on your list. In the brass field as in several others, an excellent reputation based on honesty, service, knowledge, and ethics is a must. Without this or a negative word about a dealer or individual could ruin him or her overnight in the age of cyber space.
Brass is still heavily traded, just not in train stores or at shows as in days of yore. During the heyday of brass which I have traced to March of 1997, on line auctions were in its infancy. These new venues have drastically changed not only the brass hobby, but just look around. Still the big show in Timonium has several legitimate brass vendors and individuals selling off excess (my personal favorite). FYI during the heyday, Timonium had between 30 and 35 brass folks always with tables. Winston (Balls of Brass) by far was the leader as rarely did he sell under $40,000 per show. Remember the huge pile of empty boxes he's always leave at show's end. Some referred to him as the south end of a north bound horse, but he had the fore mentioned qualities which guaranteed his tremendous success. Dan Glasure of Brasstrains.com is such a person, but without the [attitude].
More rambling.......
HZ
[Edited by admin. Please keep your language kid-friendly, folks.]
Hi Howard--
I was only responding to that one comment about brass dealers not coming to shows anymore.
At one time or another I personally bought brass from as many as 50 different dealers, some good, and a few rather disreputable souls whose names I won't mention on here. They may even be deceased.
Most of those 50 or so have passed on or otherwise left active dealing; one or two of the large online brass shops are not as customer service oriented as perhaps they once were; day-to-day floor personnel have changed, and I'm not the only one who would say that.
Yes, Howard, of course you are one of my "4 or so" that I feel I can trust to provide a good value and an honest transaction. The others are John Gurdak (Uncle Dave's Brass), and Dan Glasure (www.brasstrains.com). However, I have not ever completed a brass purchase from Dan yet (OMI caboose was cancelled on their end) and although I had wonderful experiences in the past with The Caboose, in Wolcott, CT, I have not bought anything from those folks lately...
There may be other great dealers out there that I have not had the privilege of interacting with anytime lately, but I just don't know who they are.
I go to shows hoping to find those few particular items I can't get at my local train store, that may also be gone from the internet, and perhaps once in awhile a bargain on a brass model (should've kept the $600 N&W Z1a...).
Mr. Zane you are entirely correct. Those of us who are new to the hobby need the opportunity to see what is out there for us to use. I started a layout 3 years ago without knowing anyone in the hobby. I have met several valuable resource people over the last 3 years and gone to Timonium twice and would love to start at the beginning with everything I have learned in that time.
This year I have done the following shows:
1. Great Train Show Costa Mesa (Jan 30-31)
2. Great Train Show Del Mar, CA (Feb 13-14)
3. Fullerton Railroad Days (May 30-1)
4. Great Train Show Pomona (July 30-31)
Last year our club set up a massive 40X60 layout at the Anaheim Convention Center before we got moved to Costa Mesa Fairgrounds because the Anaheim Center was being remodeled.
The big layouts so far have been 30X54, 36X40, and 38X42.
I am still hoping next January the layout size will be 40X60.
Well, my friend, my son, and I were at Timonium today. There were lots of deals to be had. I found a nearly unobtanium BLMA ATSF BX-166 boxcar for $25 and couldn't pass that up. There were plenty of other deals...I'm just saving my money toward a big ticket purchase...
PRR8259 I found a nearly unobtanium BLMA ATSF BX-166 boxcar for $25 and couldn't pass that up.
Drat! I was there also looking for one of them and didn't see it. Where did you find it?
Sorry, don't know name of dealer. It was the last one he had. My buddy picked up a few at the spring Timonium show, too.
P.S. there are some on Evilbay now!
Howard Zane It is possible that I may hold a record in visiting hobby shops. During the 70's I drove corporate airplanes for a living. I worked for a company that had business in many states, so on my layovers I'd always visit the local LHS and there were many then. It could have been well over 100 shops or even considerably more, but I was rarely impressed....sometimes rather bewildered at the lack of decent service. At times I'd be the only visitor in the shop. The guy behind the counter had absolutely no interest in me and the prevailing attitute was....."what the hell is he doing here?" Then there were the good train stores and that was my driving force to open my own shop during the period, and of course the train show. Also there were the hundreds of mental notes on what not to do. At a good train show, one does not deal with just the above idiot as mentioned, but sometimes over a hundred dealers and individuals with all kinds of products and people skills. Had I been a possible newbie wandering into a poorly run store, there would be a good chance that I'd never enter the hobby. To date I have not yet heard of a model railroad prospect being turned off from a DECENT train show. Saying for the day..........."You do not stop playing with your trains because you grow old......You grow old because you stop playing with your trains!" HZ
It is possible that I may hold a record in visiting hobby shops. During the 70's I drove corporate airplanes for a living. I worked for a company that had business in many states, so on my layovers I'd always visit the local LHS and there were many then. It could have been well over 100 shops or even considerably more, but I was rarely impressed....sometimes rather bewildered at the lack of decent service. At times I'd be the only visitor in the shop. The guy behind the counter had absolutely no interest in me and the prevailing attitute was....."what the hell is he doing here?"
Then there were the good train stores and that was my driving force to open my own shop during the period, and of course the train show. Also there were the hundreds of mental notes on what not to do.
At a good train show, one does not deal with just the above idiot as mentioned, but sometimes over a hundred dealers and individuals with all kinds of products and people skills. Had I been a possible newbie wandering into a poorly run store, there would be a good chance that I'd never enter the hobby. To date I have not yet heard of a model railroad prospect being turned off from a DECENT train show.
Saying for the day..........."You do not stop playing with your trains because you grow old......You grow old because you stop playing with your trains!"
You might be surprised how many people have done the same thing as you, and there could easily be someone who has you beat in terms of train shops visited. While I was not nearly as well paid, or had as impressive (to some) as job, I did travel a good deal by car and plane to many other states and cities and also made it point to visit a least 2 or 3 shops at each destination. I expect there have been quite a few train fans who did the same thing!
Predictably, I saw mostly the same things; a lot of so so shops, some with proprietors who appeared to hate their lives and made you want to leave as soon as you were done scanning the shelves, and a small percentage which were impressive for one reason or anothers, such as size or much better than average selection. One thing that was pretty consistant was the most prices were near MSRP and I didn't have a pilot's salary so only bought occasionally.
Because I was a bit more of an "average" sch muck, and had to live with in my modest means, I tended to look for discount prices to help me afford my toys, so I was never a shop owners best friend, so train shows and mail order have been a very good thing to help me enjoy the hobby better. We've discussed train shows quite a bit here and it does seem we are going over the same ol ground each time, but perhaps there are a few newer folks who find the discussion of more interest.
Since my late twenties I've made it a point to attend usually one or more big train shows a year and mostly have found them to be a positive, enjoyable and beneficial experience. There have been a few here and there which are for me, "duds" but I take that as a given it will happen.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
PRR8259 Well, my friend, my son, and I were at Timonium today. There were lots of deals to be had. I found a nearly unobtanium BLMA ATSF BX-166 boxcar for $25 and couldn't pass that up. There were plenty of other deals...I'm just saving my money toward a big ticket purchase...
The summer T show is one I sometimes go and sometimes miss, being that it is a smaller show and a 90 minute drive. My wife's brother and two older kids are visiting from England so that is totally taking up our time. I did find out that another of her relatives, her aunt's husband (an England ex pat) who lived in Salt Lake City was an avid model train nut - he passed away last year but his widow said he build a layout in the basement of everyhouse the lived. I sure wish I could have met him while he was alive! But I digress.
Are the BLMA ATSF BX-166 box cars that rare now. MBK had them actually for a long time, including both red versions. It may be because many were expecting them to be a brighter shade of red, and they turned out to be much darker, that sales were slow. Of course eventually all the red 1970's and 1980's versions did finally sell out but they had them IIRC for several months if not longer - which is a l-o-n-g time if an item is supposed to be popular or in-demand. I only bought one of the 1970's version during the first week they were in stock but as I said, they seemed to linger for a number of weeks after. I think they still have some HO brown versions that were a later paint scheme.
riogrande5761 Howard Zane It is possible that I may hold a record in visiting hobby shops. During the 70's I drove corporate airplanes for a living. I worked for a company that had business in many states, so on my layovers I'd always visit the local LHS and there were many then. It could have been well over 100 shops or even considerably more, but I was rarely impressed....sometimes rather bewildered at the lack of decent service. At times I'd be the only visitor in the shop. The guy behind the counter had absolutely no interest in me and the prevailing attitute was....."what the hell is he doing here?" Then there were the good train stores and that was my driving force to open my own shop during the period, and of course the train show. Also there were the hundreds of mental notes on what not to do. At a good train show, one does not deal with just the above idiot as mentioned, but sometimes over a hundred dealers and individuals with all kinds of products and people skills. Had I been a possible newbie wandering into a poorly run store, there would be a good chance that I'd never enter the hobby. To date I have not yet heard of a model railroad prospect being turned off from a DECENT train show. Saying for the day..........."You do not stop playing with your trains because you grow old......You grow old because you stop playing with your trains!" HZ You might be surprised how many people have done the same thing as you, and there could easily be someone who has you beat in terms of train shops visited. While I was not nearly as well paid, or had as impressive (to some) as job, I did travel a good deal by car and plane to many other states and cities and also made it point to visit a least 2 or 3 shops at each destination. I expect there have been quite a few train fans who did the same thing! Predictably, I saw mostly the same things; a lot of so so shops, some with proprietors who appeared to hate their lives and made you want to leave as soon as you were done scanning the shelves, and a small percentage which were impressive for one reason or anothers, such as size or much better than average selection. One thing that was pretty consistant was the most prices were near MSRP and I didn't have a pilot's salary so only bought occasionally. Because I was a bit more of an "average" sch muck, and had to live with in my modest means, I tended to look for discount prices to help me afford my toys, so I was never a shop owners best friend, so train shows and mail order have been a very good thing to help me enjoy the hobby better. We've discussed train shows quite a bit here and it does seem we are going over the same ol ground each time, but perhaps there are a few newer folks who find the discussion of more interest. Since my late twenties I've made it a point to attend usually one or more big train shows a year and mostly have found them to be a positive, enjoyable and beneficial experience. There have been a few here and there which are for me, "duds" but I take that as a given it will happen.
One simple point about prices. Before the mid 70's, discounting of model trains, or hobby goods in general, was pretty rare. So those of us old enough, and/or active in the hobby at a young enough age, remember a day when virtually all prices were MSRP - nobody expected anything different.
The beginning of discounting was the beginning of the end for many of those small shops, and the beginning of many of those bad attitudes you incountered.
There simply is/was not enough markup for local shops to buy ones and twos from distributors and then sell at 20% off.
The whole discount thing cuts out the distributors and gives you their profit, small shops simply don't have the volume.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALOne simple point about prices. Before the mid 70's, discounting of model trains, or hobby goods in general, was pretty rare.
That certainly true for many shops but,many gave a 10% discount and one in Columbus back in the 50/60s gave NMRA members a 15% discount simply because he believed in what the NMRA was doing to help the hobby.Then there was AHC ads in MR every month back in the 60s as well as several others..
In the early 70's when I began my store (Columbia's Hobby and Craft World), I became frustrated with the basic distributor discount policies and soon learned the difference between wholesale, very wholesale, and extreme wholesale...all predicated on the size of the order. I then began a company called Hobby Buyers Coop with a huge warehouse in a low rent area. The idea was to pool major and staple purchases from the area's then around 50 shops. The savings would have been gigantic, but since I was the new kid on the block and had zero credibility in the field, I could not sell the idea. Eventually companies like Ace hardware, VCA, and so many more took this to the extreme and did quite well. I do not at all take any credit for this, because as a youth I learned Harry Truman's words....."The only thing new in life is the history you have not yet learned."
I also learned that it is not what you can sell it for....it is what you can buy it for which many times is the difference between suceess and washing out in retail.
Lewis K. English, Sr. (who assembled what is today Bowser over many years by purchasing that and more than 18 other companies including Cal Scale and Arbor Models, etc.) always said that his little family-owned train store would have been out of business during the 1970's had they not been able to cut a deal with AHM.
You see, just as in Howard's post above, they learned about the wholesale, very wholesale, and extremely wholesale pricing available to the big box retail stores during the 1970's--but those big box retail stores would not and could not service anything. Lewis English, Sr. managed to cut a deal with AHM whereby he would service any of their trains as long as he could buy AHM trains at the extreme wholesale price then available only to the big box retail store chains. That was the beginning of English's becoming a distributor for other manufacturers' trains--without which they likely would not have survived. They were a mom-and-pop store operation just like many who have passed away since.
At one time during the '80's they were a distributor for many product lines, but those days, too, have mostly passed, as nationally there are only "a few" big distributors remaining (I think they deal with 7).
Others in other topics or on other forums have postulated we are heading toward a day when there will be maybe only one good train store, with an extensive internet/mail order operation ala M.B. Klein or Toy Train Heaven, remaining in each state.
I hope the shows continue, as they are a good way to find yesterday's new in box items.
John Mock
But the fact remains that the "very wholesale" price requires buying case lots - not ones, twos and sixes to stock a mom and pop hobby shop.
And there in lies the problem for most small shops - back in the day - or today......
While I enjoy going to train shows, I've become a little disappointed as of late.
I run postwar Lionel and have found that the majority of the vendors (my opinion) display HO.
The O stock seems to be over-priced (compared to the internet) and the "under-the-table" quality items are getting harder to locate.
Aside from that, I really enjoy seeing and talking to train people regardless of the gauge.
Wish that the shows would be closer and wish that we had a local hobby shop that didn't focus on airplanes, drones or power boats. Trains, except for the holiday boxed "specials", seem to be on a decline. (Guess it's a sign of the times)
I understand where you are coming from.
For a period of years, I had stopped going to shows because I thought I could just shop online.
However, I have learned there are still real bargains to be had at shows--stuff gets introduced so fast these days that it's easy to miss something, but then I can find it at a show a couple years later.
Actually there are many great deals if you look. It is a mystery why more stores don't sell used trains. By 1974, my shop was over 50% used trains. Not only was this lucrative, but it brought in many due to uniqueness, and great prices. These days were the seeds of my starting the Timonium show in 1982.
I love modeler swap meets, or " flea markets" as they're usually called around here. The area hosts 13 per season thst are definite and usually a couple of the traveling shows. If a person is willing to drive an hour or so there are 3 or 4 others, and 5 or 6 within two hours. I never miss the metro area events if I'm able to go, as I enjoy the wide variety of products to be found. Say what you like about online hobby shops, but very few of them are selling untouched Ambroid, Ulrich or Thomas kits. Or Builtup TM cars with Kadees, CV trucks and weathering for $6. And with so many of us old timers leaving the hobby there's been a deluge of bargain rolling stock, locomotives and books. I often wished I needed more equipment on the layout so I could buy more.
And there are dealers at these meets, including those with shops and online presence. You have to pay sales tax to instate dealers but skip shipping costs.
I do buy at traditional hobby shops as well. One local shop offers discounts and I recently bought two bundles of Microengineering flex track, an optivisor, paint, adhesives, a Railway Cyclopedia and a couple mags one Saturday morning. If I need paint, glue, drill bits, mags, one or two turnouts, sheet plastic or scale lumber, etc it doesn't pay me to mail order. Same with a pack or two of decals or a few sections of flex track or a couple bags of ballast. About all I do buy online are books, engines ( not many) cars and trackage but even then it's more often ebay than retailers.
The one thing I don't like is that
swap meets are seasonal. From May until September there's nary a one in town. Sure would be nice to have one in July, like there used to be.
Howard ZaneActually there are many great deals if you look. It is a mystery why more stores don't sell used trains. By 1974, my shop was over 50% used trains. Not only was this lucrative, but it brought in many due to uniqueness, and great prices. These days were the seeds of my starting the Timonium show in 1982.
A lot of my IPD short line boxcars was bought used at train shows,hobby shops and e-Bay.
About used..I mention on one forum one way to cut cost is to buy quality used locomotives from various sources and the replies made to that was negative along the lines of you're buying other people's junk,they might be stolen and best to by new from a reputable hobby shop..
90% of my locomotives was bought use at train shows,e-bay and hobby shops all was in like new to mint condition. I'm yet to by a lemon.
However,know the going use prices and discount prices before you fork over cash from your capital expense fund. There are dealers overcharging for used equipment some charge more then the going street discount.
About e-Bay..I only buy from the e-bay stores that is also a B&M hobby shop. I confirm their shop address by looking it up before making a purchase.
I have yet to pick up a lemon at a train show. Somelike the greenberg shows have test tracks.
Joe Staten Island West
I once did pick up a lemon brass articulated at a train show some years ago. A key part, that you would not expect to be missing, was missing. Someone had disassembled the factory painted Precision Scale WP 4-6-6-4, for whatever reason, and left out the special spring-loaded roller part that lifted the boiler up off the front engine to the correct height. With or without good lighting, I never would have expected or looked for that. John Gurdak (uncledavesbrass) helped me out with obtaining a replacement.
The relationships with certain folks in this hobby that I have made at the train shows have been invaluable.
Recently I purchased another brass steamer, and subsequently experienced a problem with it. Howard Zane has now gone the extra mile to make absolutely certain that I am a happy, completely satisfied customer. He got my "dream engine" (a neat green boilered T&P 4-8-2) from another dealer, and is taking the one model back in for a very fair trade, considering the circumstances. At the end of the day, I'm out only a little cash, but am still into the new model at a low enough price point, below what should be its fair market value and well below the MSRP a couple years ago.
Had I not attended several Timonium and Brass Expo shows, and had I not been introduced to Howard, who is quite an original (seriously in a good way), I would have really missed out. Thanks HZ.
When I was younger I made some most unwise purchases, but the friends I have made at the train shows (specifically Timonium and Brass Expo as I don't really attend others) have taught me a lot about the hobby and about what is really worth owning.
PRR8259When I was younger I made some most unwise purchases, but the friends I have made at the train shows (specifically Timonium and Brass Expo as I don't really attend others) have taught me a lot about the hobby and about what is really worth owning.
John,When we modelers was young the majority of us had all the answers and made bad purchases.
Between my dad,the Columbus Model Railroad Club and Hall's hobby shop-in the basement of Hall's hardware (now long gone) I learn the ways of the hobby.
As far as train show dealers and like I mention I have my favorites even though we don't know each other's names. I have had several hobby shop owners that was acquaintances. I did work part time in several hobby shops over the years.
OK, I have been quiet on this but now I have to speak up.
John - "worth owning"? Come on now, there is no more subjective statement about this hobby than that. I would bet that 75% of what you consider "worth owning", I would never part with a dollar for, let alone the high prices you have paid.
You talked about your recent brass purchase - you could not give it to me (assuming I had to keep it and use it), I have zero interest, I don't care how nice a model it is, or how well it runs, or what it is worth now, or what it might be worth later.
On the other hand, I likely value lots of what you consider "junk", low priced platforms I use to build the models I want. I have 130 locos, with a dollar cost average purchase price likely only a little over $100 each.
You know what?, they all run good, pull well, are highly detailed and nearly all have been kit bashed/customized/tuned up in someway by me.
In 130 locos, guess how many different prototype roads are represented? Only three actual roads (B&O, C&O, WM) and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
And, in that 130 locos, only about 4 were bought "used", two of them are brass.....my only two brass. Admittedly, a number of them were bought "NOS" at good prices......
Never owned a Big Boy, K4, etc, etc,..........
NO interest in "collecting", only interested in building my little minature world. I only need the parts and pieces for that. The rest of railroading I can admire from afar without filling up shelves with stuff I won't use/run.
Larry - maybe you and John made a lot of bad purchases back in the day, but I can't say I did - well maybe one or two - but I learned quick and listened close to those older than me.
Still have most all the trains I have bought in 49 years, and a few my father bought before that......not really interested in "already been played with" stuff at train shows, brass or otherwise....
ATLANTIC CENTRALStill have most all the trains I have bought in 49 years, and a few my father bought before that......
I still have all my Dad's locomotives..I never use them but,I do take them out of the old wooden sea chest and look at them from time to time.
My current HO collection was started in 97 after a brief time in O Scale 2 rail.