Howard,My first Train Show was a show in Cincinnati back in '69. There was no dealers just guys selling their excess goods and there was a slide show-cost free..Then after a Army hitch and railroadin' my next show was in Huntington WVa..I displayed a N Scale door layout at several shows between 85-87. I attend a lot of shows and talked to a lot of dealers and as a club member I worked our local show.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Observations about train shows...then and now!
I arrived in Maryland in 1963, TDY.....Army from Ft. Monmouth, NJ. I had just got back into model railroading the year before....and man, was I ever eager to learn and acquire as much as I could about the hobby. There were literally no shows except for the very few tinplate collector's swap meets...and later on the TCA and TTOS tinplate events. I seem to remember around the late 60's and early 70's several firehouse and Moose lodge shows beginning, but they were mostly about toy trains and usually were breaking up around the time that I arrived. (I'm not an early riser). By the mid 70's, there were so many shows in the mid-atlantic area that one could attend one each weekend and then some. But still they were mostly about tinplate and still wore the badge of "swap' meet. I'm only speaking of my area, as I'm sure the midwest and west coast must have had some kind of model railroad shows.
During this time there were excellent train shops both here and in NJ. Mail order houses were just beginnnig and the internet was still in Al Gore's head. In 1973, I was so impressed with the retail model train business, that I began my own shop also in 1973. (for the record, it was doing great, but when one receives an offer to earn around 5-6 times what the shop pays and there is a buyer waiting in the wings...you sell!).
During these times I met Bruce Greenberg as he also then lived in Columbia. Bruce was a rather avid tinplate collector, but loved anything to do with the hobby. At the time he began producing B/W copies of old Lionel and AF catologs, and asked if he could display and sell them in my shop. Wow, they caught on immediately and withn a short time he sold his huge tinplate collection to purchase color printing equipment to now print catalog reproductions in full color. They became even more successful, and I think at that time Bruce (has a Phd.) resigned from academia to pursue this new line full time. His wife. Linda as I recall, was fully supportive. During this period, he began to talk about his ideas of starting a really super model train show, and did so, but unfortunately the year after I sold the shop in 1975. If at the time I still owned the shop I would have been the first to rent tables and probably tucked him in bed and made him breakfast for a month just to get in... assuming there was a waiting period.
The then Greenberg shows in this area were great as there was a large selection of individuals selling really good scale models in HO and other scales. Bruce's senior assistant was Ralph Barger was an HO modeler and the driving force behind serious scale modelers becoming vendors at Greenberg's shows. Within a few years Ralph retired and Linda had the idea of bringing doll houses into the event. Within a very short time, the shows became around 35% doll houses, then other assorted stuff like cabbage patch dolls, hot wheels and similar toys with still the emphasis on tinplate . Most of the scale dealers did not want to be in show that is only partly about scale model railroading, so it became what it is today except for the doll house minitures which were eventually dropped.
This was 1982 and the beginning of the scale only model rairoad show in Ellicott City which became the Great Scale Model Railroad show aka the Timonium show as it moved to Timonium, MD in 1985. Until my sale of the show, there were over 2400 vendors who participated over the decades. Many are now in the afterlife, many retired, and many decided on just internet sales and eBay...mainly due to age and ever increasing travel expenses. The show has attracted new vendors...and some quite good with interesting products, but still attrition has become the major battle. Unless more folks enter the hobby and with some becoming vendors....now we get back to the point of the original message.
There is still quite bit more to say on this topic, but something about whipping a dead horse comes to mind. If interest still prevails, I'm certainly for continuing as there is so much to tell.
HZ
PRR8259I would hope that new folks to the hobby would not be relying on internet forums for "accurate" information. Although the dcc and electronics related technical information on the internet forums can be very good, the modeling information is sometimes questionnable at best.
There lies another issue a newb asks about a MRC power pack and is told he needs DCC. Ask about laying track and he is to buy,that and this tool.
Thankfully there is some good tutorials on You Tube covering a lot of the basics from track laying to installing DCC decoders.Woodland Scenics has several scenery and a ballasting videos on You Tube.
As far as clinics at shows I'm sorry to report none of the shows I attend has any, not even the best of the best Berea and that show uses 4 big buildings chuck full of dealer tables and few layouts. For me that is a must attend show followed by the Dalton show.Both shows is 2 1/2 hour drive but,well worth the trip and both has good coffee and apple pie.
Larry--
I would hope that new folks to the hobby would not be relying on internet forums for "accurate" information. Although the dcc and electronics related technical information on the internet forums can be very good, the modeling information is sometimes questionnable at best.
Perfect example: within the last couple weeks, on another forum of which I'm no longer a member and do not post, some folks were extremely critical of Athearn's 65' HO mill gondola, and said it was flat out "wrong" ie too wide, etc. based upon some alleged drawings. The FACT of the matter is that Athearn 65' mill gondola is a dead-on accurate model of a Santa Fe gondola originally constructed during 1937, with subsequent lots during 1941, 1944, and I believe as late as 1955. The actual product reviews by the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society are viewable online by anyone including all non-members, and were very good and informative.
So in that particular case, as in many others, as a result of someone not getting all the facts and assuming that "Athearn screwed up", someone reading an internet forum would receive very inaccurate information that might negatively sway any purchasing decision--and would cost the manufacturer prospective sales. No, they can't make a road-specific gondola for each and every railroad, but when they tool a new car, they usually make it correct for one railroad.
I get that there are train shows out there that might not be that great, but there are excellent ones that remain, and the clinics offered at those shows can be most helpful to newbies.
Respectfully submitted--
John Mock
The last show in June at the Metrolina fair goround in Charlotte NC was good but for next year it has to be at another location because Metrolina is sold.
Russell
The recent Timonium shows may have had a good vendor table count and attendance, but IMO, the "quality" of the vendors, in general, are not as good as they were a few years ago. Even my wife, who is not a train nut, but has regularly attended the T show with me since 2011, has noticed the sharp decline in "better vendors" in the past year or so. Yes, one or two are no longer there because they went out of business but there were definitely some regulars who were vendors I always browsed and had appealing stock to look through. Yes, I have heard that no one was driven away, but I have heard some vendors who were still there telling me that some stopped coming; since I don't remember the particulars I won't state things that may be inaccurate; my wifes memory is much better and she could probably repeat what she remembers.
All that said, things are what they are, and the Timonium show is still good and worth going too and to be fair, there are those who have fond memories of what it used to be like before I moved into the area (2009) and say it before I started going, it used to be much better even then. I do know I don't see some vendors I used to see, and that is a loss to the show; but I don't know if the others who say it was better prior to 2009 are seeing through rose colored glasses or whatever. The summer show is small enough that it is debatable whether it is worth the 90 minute drive, but fall, winter and spring usually are so I do plan on going. There is a Greenberg show coming near where I live late August so I'll still be able to get a show fix this summer. Yes, a fairly small percentage is HO and too darn much O scale and toys but it's close and I often find some things I like.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Howard,What would help the new modelers the most is a good hobby shop-you see lots of R/C shops where the new R/C fan can get tons of information. I know of two R/C shops that has outside race courses.Instant use of your newest R/C car or truck. As far as R/C plane flying there are laws governing where you may fly.
Train shows are good for a day's outing and finding new or used OOP models,modeling supplies,paints,decals etc as you know but,they're that the final solution for the newbie but,can help.Today they have to turn to forums and You Tube to find answers that was once a phone call away.
Of course Columbus has several top model train shops and several clubs that can help the new modeler. In fact I will be making my annual rounds of those shops come fall.
Having read about the Timonium shows I would like to attend one but,going is around 10 hours including rest(coffee) stops from Ohio plus two nights in a motel-I would want to be fresh and well rested for the show and well rested before making the return trip. I'm not as healthy or young as I use to be.
BRAKIE Howard,Maybe.But,the best shows I go to is Berea,Dalton and Bucyrus. When I go to a show its not for watching trains run loops but,to shop.I do enjoy watching a few laps but,that's below enjoying a cup of coffee and a slice of apple pie. My "chicken little" comments is closer then you may want to admit. We modelers can make or break a show. They need us far more then we need them. From the comments I read on other forums the general consensus was the Timonium shows wasn't all that great this year. At any rate unless things changes you should see shows falling from favor in the next few years and seeing some has already fallen into the "there was" book. One can denay that but,it will happen and I based that on attending several shows a year besides my three favorites listed above. BTW..I said on the old Atlas forum way back in 2002 we will the closing of mom and pop hobby shops by the hundreds unless they wise up and get a internet presence.
Howard,Maybe.But,the best shows I go to is Berea,Dalton and Bucyrus.
When I go to a show its not for watching trains run loops but,to shop.I do enjoy watching a few laps but,that's below enjoying a cup of coffee and a slice of apple pie.
My "chicken little" comments is closer then you may want to admit. We modelers can make or break a show. They need us far more then we need them.
From the comments I read on other forums the general consensus was the Timonium shows wasn't all that great this year.
At any rate unless things changes you should see shows falling from favor in the next few years and seeing some has already fallen into the "there was" book. One can denay that but,it will happen and I based that on attending several shows a year besides my three favorites listed above.
BTW..I said on the old Atlas forum way back in 2002 we will the closing of mom and pop hobby shops by the hundreds unless they wise up and get a internet presence.
Actually the past winter and spring Timonium shows were quite good and well attended. Both shows had an excess of 700 tables and over 20 layouts. The recent summer show which is always the smallest was not great.
Weather was and always is a factor, but the new management at the fairgrounds changed the dates from the well established June event to early July and it ran against the National Train show. Not great!!! I do agree with Larry about how marketing is changing to on-line everythngs and progress (yuk) cannot be stopped, but what can be done is to promote our hobby to younger folks and possible newbies....henceforth the shows or good shows. And of course fine stores... what is left of them.
I also concur that no retail train store today can survive without a strong on-line presence.
BRAKIE.I toss my hat into the house and if it came flying back out I vamoose from the area.Smile, Wink & Grin
Nah, no hat tossing. Walk in backwards and if she catches you you can say you were just leaving.
maxman Doughless I go to train shows ....to look at layouts, maybe some clinics, browse around, talk to people; generally for entertainment purposes. You forgot "to get me out of the house" and "for the camaraderie and fellowship"
Doughless I go to train shows ....to look at layouts, maybe some clinics, browse around, talk to people; generally for entertainment purposes.
You forgot "to get me out of the house" and "for the camaraderie and fellowship"
And the frying pan or rolling pin that might be awaiting some modelers when they return from the show with more trains.
I was to smart for that..I toss my hat into the house and if it came flying back out I vamoose from the area.
Seriously my wife spent more at shows on building kits,vehicles,paints and wee people. I just bought odds and ends and quality use freight cars.
DoughlessI go to train shows ....to look at layouts, maybe some clinics, browse around, talk to people; generally for entertainment purposes.
Since we're on the 4th page, I'll give my opinion once more just as a refresher.
I don't go to try shows looking to buy new items from dealers, or as a replacement for a long gone LHS. Anytime I buy any thing at a show, it is from soneone's personal collection where he is selling surplus items. New in the box stuff is usually too expensive at shows, with the exception of a few local dealers.
I go to train shows for the reasons Howard mentioned above. To look at layouts, maybe some clinics, browse around, talk to people; generally for entertainment purposes. All forms of entertainment cost money, so the price of admission and parking is about the same as going to a movie, or dinner, or something similar.
- Douglas
Larry,
Wrong again, but its your opinion just as a model railroad belongs to its owner with its rules. You miss the entire point completely. A good show is way more than a bunch of WW2 retreads selling last year's stock of plastic whatevers. At Timonium, you'll find over 20 operating layouts of all scales (except summer show) with folks welcoming newbies and the young to run and learn about model trains. Then there are the free clinics...many with hands on topics. And then the commraderie. Go find that on the net. This is also true of several other shows I have attended. Have you been to the West Springfield, MA show? Many have and you may find yourself a bit emabarrased at your Chicken Little comments.
I'm not at all religious, but I'll say a prayer for you. I hope when the time comes, you'll find a computer beyond the pearly gates. I'll find a train show!!!!
I don't hate train shows and there are bargains to be had but,they are not the answer since the dealers take your money and you may not see them again till next year or maybe until the next closest show. I don't like the price gouging tactics some dealers are using to include the latest "New Old Stock" cry.
When a city the size of Toledo has no model train shops something major happen. At one time Toledo had two good shops now gone.I know of 5 good shops that closed since 2000. One shop lasted around 5 or 6 years before being force to closed..I spent more then my fair share of money there because it was a great shop with a 10% discount at checkout.Saturday was his busiest day. None of those shops was closed due to sickness or the owner retiring.They went belly up.
I see the hand writing on the wall for train shows some has already became a fallen flag. Look at the number of old dealers versus the younger dealers. Not a pretty picture. One of the reasons its a gamble..You enter the show already in the hole from table rent hotel/motel rent gas and food.Until you cover those expenses you're not making money and if you have a bad day or low attendance then you may break even or lose money.
It doesn't matter if the glass is full, half full or near empty the computer age has changed everything.Even big box discount stores sells on line and some times at a cheaper price then the local store with free delivery to that store.
You can even order your weekly groceries on line and then just go and pick them up.In/out less then five minutes.
I stop looking through rose color glasses and pretending the Lone Ranger and Tonto will ride in and save the day..I seen the harsh reality of the computer age.
The hobby and hobbyist in general has change..We as a lot want the best detail cars and locomotives they can make then we find the cheapest prices.
How do we find those prices? At a LHS? Nope..At a Train Show? Nope not there either.. Ah,there they are on www.com
How I miss going to a quality hobby shop on Saturday mornings.A drive in the cool of the mornings with a stop for breakfast at a small mom and pop restaurant where the coffee was fresh and the food delicious and maybe some railfaning on the way-life was good..
richhotrainWhy debate train shows at all? You like them, you go to them. You don't like them, you don't go to them. Seems simple enough to me.
But what would life be if we had nothing to kvetch about?
Why debate train shows at all?
You like them, you go to them. You don't like them, you don't go to them.
Seems simple enough to me.
I started in the HO scale side of the hobby in early 2004. I went to a train show back then, found it boring and a waste of my time, never went back to another one. I survived in the hobby quite nicely without train shows, and the train shows survived quite nicely without me.
Rich
Alton Junction
I don't understand the hate for the train shows.
I will admit the deals aren't like they used to be, but still plenty to be had depending on your tastes. I crack up at the price of gas, food and parking when anyone in this thread that has bought a new locomotive has dropped at least $100 on it
I also am willing to bet 99% of the people here don't make a train show a real road trip or a vacation. It's just one of those things. The way you guys talk about it maybe I need to go to Timonium one year however!
I've mentioned earlier I hit the Great Midwest Train Show as many times as I can. It takes me an hr to hr and a half to get there. I usually meet up with one of my friends out that way. I take my older boy with me and my Dad has come along once or twice to boot. We all get the chance to get together, relax, check out sutff for sale, dig for deals and have some fun. We hit the McD's afterword and talk.
I'm wondering if some people are doing train shows wrong?
First place my boy wants to go, along with every other kid I see is the stage in the main building with the layout of the month that is there. I've seen everything from Lego trains, to multi-gauge layouts and everything in between. Same goes for the other buildings where they have any type of layout. It is where the kids go. They are not exposed to this stuff anymore unless there is something to take them to. That means you and I, we take them, we show them. No show? This hobby will go down the toilet.
A train show is not a life changing event, but it sure as heck should be a fun one.
For awhile, I did not attend too many train shows. The usual arguments about gasoline, parking cost, admission, show food, etc...
But I didn't totally give up, and I found out my preconceived notions were way wrong.
There have been some outrageous bargains at recent shows, that did sell quickly:
PFM Rio Grande L-131 2-8-8-2's, late runs with can motors, painted very nicely, for the unheard of price of less than $600. Those things will run and run. Those prices are virtually half the 1990's price on that particular model...There's folks selling the Proto 2000 2-8-8-2's for well north of $400. It doesn't always cost that much more, nowadays, for something that's honestly a bit better than Proto 2000.
I found all manner of bargains at the last show. Beautiful (rare roadname) Genesis diesels for $100...
I just tried to stick to my personal theme, but I could easily have spent some serious cash...
John
[quote user="BRAKIE"]course please spend more time on your railroad! HZ Maybe that's because I don't look through rose color classes and live in yesteryear? Mom and Pop hobby shops can't compete neither can train shows and those hobby shops fell like king pins. Take a close look at the close mom and pop stores of all kind. Amazon and e-Bay has put the hurt to them as well as the bigger box stores. On line hobby shops and shops with a on line presence will survive.Train shows and shops clinging to the old business as usual ways will fade away. Walthers,Atlas,Horizon,Scale Trains,Athearn,Exact Rail and all the other manufacturers has direct ordering some with discounts. The next phase will be to eliminate the middleman by the remaining shops ordering direct. As far as driving to a show why should I? I can order my needs at my computer or whip out my smart phone and order and within minutes I can work on the layout,a workbench(desk really) project or switch cars. Sounds like a good way to spend your allotted hobby time since you get more done. I'm not the only that sees that is the best and maybe the safest method since there is no traveling involved
I do agree that marketing is changing....part of the original post question! What you say is most likey going to happen as it already has in many fields if not all. Still with model railroading, on-line ordering works well for those who know what they seek.
Do you honestly feel that a possible newbie will enter this hobby by ordering a model which he or she knows nothing about from an electric menu?? I think not, and it is the train show or LHS that will offer this newbie or possible newbie a first hand look at a wonderful hobby and first hand advise. In my over three decades of co-running the Timonium show, I can speak with some credibility about how "civilians" have come to the shows, not knowing what to expect... except for seeing trains...and have come back purchasing entry level trains and then some.
Again try drinking from a glass that is half full.....it may taste somewhat better than the stuff in the glass which is half empty!
Howard ZaneMany of your comments are negative on several issues. I see zero constructive thinking in your posts. Perhaps you should drink from a glass that is half full, and of course please spend more time on your railroad! HZ
Maybe that's because I don't look through rose color classes and live in yesteryear?
Mom and Pop hobby shops can't compete neither can train shows and those hobby shops fell like king pins. Take a close look at the close mom and pop stores of all kind. Amazon and e-Bay has put the hurt to them as well as the bigger box stores.
On line hobby shops and shops with a on line presence will survive.Train shows and shops clinging to the old business as usual ways will fade away.
Walthers,Atlas,Horizon,Scale Trains,Athearn,Exact Rail and all the other manufacturers has direct ordering some with discounts. The next phase will be to eliminate the middleman by the remaining shops ordering direct.
As far as driving to a show why should I? I can order my needs at my computer or whip out my smart phone and order and within minutes I can work on the layout,a workbench(desk really) project or switch cars. Sounds like a good way to spend your allotted hobby time since you get more done.
I'm not the only that sees that is the best and maybe the safest method since there is no traveling involved and less wear and tear on the vehicle plus the aforementioned expenes...
Look around, shows are still attracting individuals and many estate sales.
Many of your comments are negative on several issues. I see zero constructive thinking in your posts. Perhaps you should drink from a glass that is half full, and of course please spend more time on your railroad!
Howard ZaneThis thread was begun as a discussion about the importance of train shows and how they affect the now and future of our hobby.
They don't. The shows will go by the way of dail phones,transistor radios and 8 track tape players. They will fade into the sunset as prices get higher and the dealers can't compete with on line shopping. Then there's the travel cost, the cost of parking,the admission cost near MSRP and ridiculous prices for older models used or the supposedly "new old stock" that is 20- 30 years old. They are shooting their selves in the foot with these ridiculious prices. You can buy new cheaper on line.
A life line might be to return to the shows of old where hobbyist sold their surplus models and the few dealers sold estates..
I can see it is time for me to go build a few more trains...........
Sheldon
This thread was begun as a discussion about the importance of train shows and how they affect the now and future of our hobby. Please add thoughts and ideas on this subject. I'm always amazed how topics go way off original subject matter.
I tried to put trains in an appropriate, rural context, and tried to achieve the illusion of great distance by having 3 overall "scenes" on the layout. Never got to buildings excepting one barn. Just did pick up the Woodland Scenics LED lighted movie theatre...
Since the new T&P engine might not operate on my current eased curves, I may rebuild part of the layout to accommodate it, but trackwork is cheap. It would give me the chance to "fix" some things. Adding nice bridges is where the real cost might come in.
PRR8259 Yes, indeed, Larry. I would have to agree. I really liked the P2K 0-8-0, even owned one just within the last year (it's a great little engine) but sold it when I bought the first brass steamer in awhile. Sheldon--I attempted to stick to an era, and tried hard (Santa Fe 1970's) but just couldn't. It's my railroad, with mostly southwestern desert scenery, could be west Texas, or parts of Arizona, or Mojave Desert ...and I run what I like, period. I don't care for solid trains of freight car red, blackened freight cars like 1951, but like 1960's/70's freight cars...so for my railroad steam hung on a little longer. Again, it's my railroad. It can be the way some might have wished it would have been, if only steam didn't succomb so soon. John
Yes, indeed, Larry. I would have to agree. I really liked the P2K 0-8-0, even owned one just within the last year (it's a great little engine) but sold it when I bought the first brass steamer in awhile.
Sheldon--I attempted to stick to an era, and tried hard (Santa Fe 1970's) but just couldn't. It's my railroad, with mostly southwestern desert scenery, could be west Texas, or parts of Arizona, or Mojave Desert ...and I run what I like, period.
I don't care for solid trains of freight car red, blackened freight cars like 1951, but like 1960's/70's freight cars...so for my railroad steam hung on a little longer. Again, it's my railroad. It can be the way some might have wished it would have been, if only steam didn't succomb so soon.
Actually, the post war era, and my 1954 time period is full of colorful paint schemes. B&O Sentinel Service, NYC Pacemaker, and many others. And the color photo evidence suggests railroads were generally in good repair and relatively clean in that period. Lots of stuff was brand new, a result of catching up on deferred war maintenence and buying new equipment.
Another area where we differ widely, I have little interest in western roads and no interest in western scenery........
So, while I am a big supporter of doing whatever you like in this hobby, I do find it interesting the number of people who are very particular about the proto specific details of a single loco, or car, but who are not concerned with the overal context of their layout.
I am the exact opposite. I like cars and locos to be accurate, but I'm not obsessed, partly because, in the case of steam locos, changes were made all the time. I don't have photos of every B&O or C&O loco I want to madel that were taken on September 23, 1954, to know what those locos looked like for sure in the time setting of my layout.
So close enough to give the correct "feel" is close enough.......
On the other hand, I want the layout as a whole to convey a sense of that time in history. So things that were generally gone, are gone. And things not yet built or invented are not shown.
The newest diesels I own, a pair of SD9's, fresh from LaGrange.......
I do take a little license with a few small facts, but it takes a real expert on a few obscure facts to notice......
I model lots of early piggyback, I have about 150 piggyback flats alone - three trains worth - I run long trains........
I am more than happy with shorty passenger cars - 9-12 Athearn cars, super detailed, close coupled wth touching/working diaphragms, moving gracefully around my 36" curves, looks way more realistic to me than 6 or 7 85' cars with wide gaps between them looking as if they are in the switching yard at restricted speeds as they go around the curves.
I have kit bashed all manner of passengers cars not made by Athearn or ConCor, plus all the extra detail, so much so, many people ask "what brand of passenger cars are those".
But that is were the fun is for me, building trains, not just the layout and structures, but I like building structures too.
PRR8259I just like steam. John
That United Santa Fe 2-8-0 and 2 Truck Shay I had back in the 60s was far better detailed then any brass diesel back then.
I seen a brass C&O/N&W 0-8-0 at a train show that was beautifully detailed to the max. IIRC it was $275.00 on "Train Show Special" deal...It blew the Walthers P2K 0-8-0 out of the water.