That's a pretty broad topic. Since at least the 1950's, there have been thousands of imported brass models with some degree of handwork. Some are true works of art; some aren't worth the powder to blow them off the face of the earth. Some are fine representations of their ostensible prototype; others not so much. Some run like Swiss watches; others like Swiss cheese.
When I consider buying a brass model, I determine whether it's an item that fits my needs and represents a prototype I want. Then I consider the reputation of the builder. I inspect it thoroughly and judge its operating quality. If it looks like it fits my criteria and is worth the money, I may buy it. An item that doesn't fit, or which doesn't operate properly (or can't be made to operate properly), isn't worth bothering with, whether made of brass or any other material.
Over the years I've owned fine brass engines and I've owned clunkers.
Now that I've said all that, we don't know enough about your needs, wants, budget, etc. to give much of an answer. The answer will have to be tailored to you. What do you want to know, and what do you want to get out of the model in question?
Tom
I have had many brass engines thru the years and to be honest most were Not worth the price I paid for them. Most had good detail and most were lousy runners without allot of tweaking and even then they were still bad.
Todays brass is much better but not worth the money the mfgs. are asking.
There is just too many non-brass mfgs. Making and importing great products for me to consider brass ever again.
All the brass I ever had is now gone.
Brass has seen its day come and go. Good riddance.
Most of my motive power roster is brass - proving that brass is nice to work with if a manufacturer doesn't have industrial plastic or pot metal molding capability. I know that many of my models were built as low production rate items by people operating out of storefronts or spare bedrooms. AFAIK, only one was ever shipped to the United States for commercial sale. Max Gray picked up on the Toby model of the Imperial Government Railways 4020 class 0-8-0T - Baldwin, class of 1897. His 1974 asking price was three times what I had paid in Yokohama, and nowhere did his ads mention that the model was a 3' 6" gauge prototype built to 1:80 scale and fitted to run on HO track (aka HOj.) Tenshodo produced a Baldwin 0-6-0 in pot metal that had a remarkable visual resemblance to the 4020, also in HOj. (Tenshodo was and is a manufacturing jeweler with a fancy Ginza address, not the typical storefront operation.)
Since all of my brass models are Japanese prototype and of Japanese manufacture, they hardly form a representative sample. Also, I built most of them from kits, and did considerably more tweaking and minor modification than the assemblers who turned out the same models ready to run. Their performance reflects that. Of course, I dealt off my canines a long time ago.
I bought brass locomotives because the locomotives I wanted were only available as brass kits or RTR. I didn't buy them as an investment in anything but future fun. Well, the future is now, and I'm having fun.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
JimT It's a bit discouraging to spend a lot of time writing up a post for the forum only to see the whole thread disappear an hour later. Jim
It's a bit discouraging to spend a lot of time writing up a post for the forum only to see the whole thread disappear an hour later.
Jim
Jim,
Discussing brass trains is perfectly fine on the forum. The original post was deleted because the person posting the link to a certain brass show was also listed on the vendor's page. (A roundabout way of advertising and promoting, which is a no-no according the forum policy.) The majority of the original post would have had to be deleted, which didn't leave a whole lot left to discuss.
Sorry it affected your lengthy reply.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I think brass has it's place. It's usually a limited run of a specific model. If you want that particular model great, if not well then it's too expensive for close.
I have a brass locomotive that's for a very small limited market - Sn2, WWF Forney. It's doubtful that market will ever support anything else in the way of locomotives or even a rerun of this model. For close enough, I have some MDC HOn3 kits which I plan to convert (also no longer available with no rerun in sight).
Enjoy
Paul
I have been tempted many times to bid on a brass engine, but each time I am stopped by my perceived negative aspects of such a purchase.
The cost itself is hard to justify when I can get excellent quality 'plastic' models for the same price or less. I would be much happier with an Intermountain F series locomotive which I can put on the track and run than a brass engine that will require hours of work to make it presentable and reliable.
Brass locomotives lack details. OK ok, settle down, most brass has great detail but they don't go the whole nine yards. I like lighting. Most brass lacks lighting. I like illuminated number boards. I don't like holes where the number boards are supposed to be and I don't like number boards that can't be easily illuminated. Granted, all that stuff can be added but so far I'm not interested in the challenge. (I hate drilling into brass!).
When I spend $300+ I expect the cab windows will be glazed. I can't recall any brass models with window glazing and I really suck at installing it myself.
According to what I have read, the running qualities of brass engines are all over the board. Again, if I'm going to spend the money I don't want to have to spend a bunch more to get the thing to run reliably.
They rarely come painted, and if they do come painted the price is usually way too high for me to even think about.
Finally, the biggest obstacle to making the investment is my own ignorance. I am pretty much clueless when it comes to accurate detailing, particularly on steam locomotives. I can identify the basics but I have a hard time getting a locomotive on the tracks let alone knowing which pipes and widgets are in the right place, and quite frankly I don't care. I do admire the dedication of those who do model accurately very much, but for me the hobby is a way to de-stress, not add to it if I am worrying about getting something wrong.
However, having said all of that, I love scratch building with brass. The locomotive in my avatar is scratch built. The detailing is nowhere near what most brass models offer but the price was right and it runs decently right from the start. Oh, and it has working lights too.
Oh dear, I seem to have been ranting! My bad!
Please don't think that I am criticising anyone in any way. I'm just expressing my own preferences.
All the best to everyone!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I purchase brass locomotives because i know of no realistic plastic versions of the locomotives I'm interested in (Reading camelbacks).
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
greg:
I admire your dedication to accuracy. Brass locomotives clearly fill a need for you which I don't have.
Each to his own.
So Tom, why was my post/thread deleted????????????????????????
Personally, while I have every respect for the quality and craftsmanship of brass, I only own a very few pieces.
Because I have been in the hobby a long time, and worked in this industry at one time, I thought I might share my views on why brass has never been a big part of my modeling.
First, I have never seen where a brass diesel, or piece of rolling stock was anymore detailed than what I could build or super detail myself in other materials.
Cost is one factor - look at it this way - I will explain using my personal choices.
I'm building a layout that fills a 900 sq ft room, designed for both good scenery and good operation. I combine my freelance ATLANTIC CENTRAL with modeling of the B&O, C&O and WM. I model 1956.
My operational plan calls for about 30 staged trains, typically powered by 3-4 diesels or two steamers - about 90 powered units. Add in some locos in the shop for power changes, switching, etc, and you need about 130 locos - that is about the size of my current roster.
Add to that 800 freight cars, 200 passenger cars, 1000 feet of track, turnouts, signaling & CTC, wireless throttles, etc.
Point? I have spent some money on model trains - I could have bought more brass - but brass, in and of itself would not have added much to my modeling goals.
DISCLAIMER - I'm not a collector. I don't own a bunch of locos from railroads I don't model or eras I don't model. I really don't have any interest in owning a bunch of shelf queens - brass or plastic.
So as a freelancer first, I have built my roster around the available mass produced offerings over the last 20 years or so. I have been in the hobby over 40 years, but I did retire most of my early loco fleet.
DICLAIMER #2 - I have never considered ANY model train an investment, and have never bought a train thinking I would sell it at some point in the future. In 40 years I have only later sold off a few pieces I changed my mind about. I only buy what fits the layout theme.
So for me, $1000 brass loco always looked like money that would buy 5 $200 locos, especially in the age of Spectrum and Proto2000.
I am a model builder, and I kitbash a lot of my locos - a fact that would likely have a negative effect on the value of a piece of brass........
So while they are very nice examples of fine craftsmanship, they just don't fit into my view of the hobby in most cases.
But interestingly enough, I am considering two/three brass loco purchases. I would like to pick up a WM 4-6-2, and maybe a couple B&O B18 4-6-0's. Short of that, the two PFM USRA 4-6-2's I already have are about all I need in the way of brass. Maybe I should not tell you this - but those two PFM Pacifics now sport Bachmann long haul tenders lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL........
One more point, to give my freelanced line a strong family look I have done two things:
I kitbash locos to give them similar "family line" features.
And rather than have 40 different steam locos, I have multiples of each type/class. I have anywhere from two or three of each to as many as nine of the same loco to create that prototype roster feel - something also not as easily done buying used brass.....
Again brass is very nice, I would never downplay its role or value to the hobby, but it is not for everyone, at least not as large percentage of a roster for many.
Also, agreed as to the durablity of brass - but to be honest, in 43 years I have never worn out any reasonable quality locomotive.....
But as soon as I find a good deal on a WM K-2, I'm all in for at least one more.....
Sheldon
hon30critterI admire your dedication to accuracy.
not accuracy. Nothing in plastic comes close. Mantua seems to have one camelback shell they put on all their models: consolidated or pacific. So brass is my only option and I assume true for others.
Tom, thanks, I appreciate the reply--but I had responded in Sheldon's second thread, which was also deleted in addition to the first HZ thread. That's what didn't make any sense to me.
I will try it again here, and hopefully my reference to a certain brass show will be indirect enough to be okay this time around.
quote user About a year and a half ago, I wrote a thread about if a brass show again would work. I received 26 replies which were all very negative. Since there was so much passion against brass or at least on this forum, I proceeded with the show which was held in Maryland exactly a year ago. . . . This is not an ad for the show as I am no longer involved (I will be there), but this thread is about brass models and where they can be seen and purchased . . . and mostly learn about.
About a year and a half ago, I wrote a thread about if a brass show again would work. I received 26 replies which were all very negative. Since there was so much passion against brass or at least on this forum, I proceeded with the show which was held in Maryland exactly a year ago. . . . This is not an ad for the show as I am no longer involved (I will be there), but this thread is about brass models and where they can be seen and purchased . . . and mostly learn about.
Hi,
This is a subject I am very much interested in, and I looked up your thread from a year ago. I would (respectfully) disagree with your claim that the 26 replies you received "were all very negative." Perhaps some replies were, but most were simply pragmatic about the multiple values at stake for modelers who weigh pros and cons of brass versus whatever-else-competes-with-brass. So I think characterizing those replies in that thread as "all negative," either toward brass itself or to the idea of a brass expo, is at best simply inaccurate and needlessly adversarial at worst.
Second, as your intent in "this thread is about brass models and where they can be seen and purchased....and mostly learn about," I'd like to comment on places where people like me can "mostly learn about brass." I've been a model railroader since I was ten years old (five years old if you count Lionel trains), and I've had a relatively small number of brass locos for the last 35 years.
We truly live in the Golden Age of Technology today, and in particular, we enjoy a Golden Age of Information Technology. I agree with you that one can learn a lot in face-to-face interactions at either a Brass Expo or with direct, in-person interactions with brass experts such as you. But I also believe I can learn as much if not more through long-term participation in online forums dedicated to brass collecting and brass repair than from a brief weekend's interaction at a show or a weekend visit with you at your home (which I would truly love to do someday if the opportunity presents itself).
The ability to share information online, and especially for brass repair purposes the ability to share photo and video information online, is what separates today from the Golden Age of Brass Collecting. I am slowly acquiring some of the basic skills necessary to remotor, regear, and repair some of that poorly running brass that I seem to be attracted to. Whether it’s here, on the yahoo brass forum, social media brass backshop groups, online video tutorials, or wherever, it is possible today to acquire information through a remote access connection on a computer that was virtually impossible to get a generation ago without a personal mentor. (And I had one of those as well, when I was a member of a club.)
Just this week I’ve been working on a NJCB Lehigh Valley T-2. The motor was fine, but so far I've done a complete replacement of the gearbox, driveline, and a new torque arm installed. Two years ago I had none of the knowledge how to do these things, if I needed such work done I just paid others to do it. I’ll include a video of where this most recent project stands as of yesterday.
So unlike other posters, I actually have a fairly keen interest in brass, I am just not sure that the “trade show” model of spreading the word about brass is the only way to accomplish the goal of helping people learn about brass. Brass can be seen and purchased online as well as in person. People can learn about brass online as well as in person. The fact that others might actually prefer to get their information online and/or make purchases online should not necessarily be interpreted as a “negative” response to your advocacy of face-to-face dealings. There’s actually room in the hobby for both approaches.
Hopefully nothing I’ve said here will be interpreted as negative. I love the hobby, I enjoy working with brass locomotives, I’m not necessarily a collector but I have a number of different brass locos that I enjoy tinkering with. It’s all good.
Sheldon/Jim,
Your posts were fine in and of itself. What made it strange was that they addressed the previous post/poster and made it somewhat awkward as a stand alone thread because the original was deleted.
So, again, your post was fine. It was just a casualty of the original thread. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.
I have two brass steam locos, converted to dcc with current keepers and add'l contacts, that run very well. Price of brass, plus painting and dcc conversion is not cheap. I also operate on a layout with just about every piece of Erie brass that has been produced. My experience with the ones that I have run has been good. Problems include mixing brass cars with plastic. Brass being much heavier can produce derailments and or shorts, an occasional but not frequent problem.
If you find a piece of brass that you are interested in do a search, you may be able to find a review. I was in some cases able to.
Good luck,
Mark
When I first got back into model railroading back in the late 1970s, brass locos were considered the Cadillacs of model railroading. Typical price for a steamer was $600 and would be about 3 times as much in today's dollars. They just weren't in my budget back then. Most of the brass I saw was unpainted and that just didn't appeal to me. I was interested in accumulating equipment to put on my layout, not collectibles. If I was going to run it on my layout, I would have to go to the trouble of painting it which I had no interest in doing. Instead, I built my fleet with Athearn BB diesels and Rivarossi steamers.
Later on a I did pick up some brass as part of an estate sale, a 2-8-8-2 logger and three Tenshado shorty Pennsy passenger cars which are still in the box I bought them over 30 years ago. I have no idea what the passenger cars are worth. I did check with my LHS as to the value of the logger. It seems that a lot of them were built so they have limited value as collector's items. Since mine isn't even in a box, I doubt I could get $200 for it. It has no place on my layout even if I wanted to go to the trouble of painting and decorating it. I haven't decided what I want to do with any of it.
In short, brass costs way more than it would be worth to me. You can get so much more for less money going with high end sound and DCC equipped locos than you get with traditional brass. I see them more as collectibles than working locos.
When I started in the "serious" side of the model train hobby, so let's say early 1960s, it seemed to my perhaps immature mind that brass marked one of several dividing lines between what anybody (including me and my friends) could do and what the real "adult" modelers could or would want to do (the others being scratchbuilt or craftsman built rolling stock and structures, hand-laid track, airbrushing, and signal systems). Thus obtaining a brass engine seemed like one of the genuine rites of passage for the modeler, and while I never focused on this aspect at the time, it is the only one from my list that can be accomplished purely with money, not talent or dedication. I do not want to use the phrase "snob appeal" because that is not what I mean at all, but I can understand those who view the desire to acquire brass as snob appeal. Rather it was clear to me as a youth that the acquisition of brass was something that had to await being an adult with an adult's income.
But even back then it seemed to my young eyes that brass diesels didn't look nearly as good or as accurate as what I could see in plastic in terms of detail. The nose contours on brass F units for example made even the most marginal of the plastic HO lines (Marx) look good. But brass steam I could see far exceeded in detail and completeness just about anything the mass produced firms could create, or that even a super detailer could add to them.
Eventually I bought some brass steam locomotives, seemingly more to say that I finally had a brass engine than to fill a gap in my planned roster. It was then that I learned that all the skills that made them look so exquisite did not carry over into the motors and drive trains. True I was buying lower end brass, and my first ever was a genuine disaster that even the North West Short Line advertisement warned about: the Cotton Belt 4-4-2 (NWSL called it the "Rotten Belt"). NWSL also offered to sell a 'MIM kit" -- that stood for "Make It Move." It had a Tyco motor -- not a Tyco quality motor, but a genuine Tyco motor, and this from the dreck years of Tyco not the decent motors they used in 1960.
Other brass, from Alco, Overland, and such lines, looked great and ran much better. A USRA 0-6-0 runs very well last time I checked. But with the larger steam (4-8-2, 2-10-2) then I experienced the problem that with each trip around the layout, the valve gear would all become unscrewed and would be just flapping uselessly, after running just a few feet. I got adept at replacing the tiny screws, but I never became adept at keeping the screws tightened enough to let me run the engines. So all my brass sits in the boxes.
A brass high cube auto parts boxcar was purchased because it was only $20 but it is so absurdly heavy that it will never run on my layout, even if I cleaned it up enough to paint and letter it. I will however likely run my Overland C&NW brass cabooses which were NOT bargains but which are truly accurate models for what I want, nice though the Walthers ones may be. I hate to think of weathering the beautiful paint jobs but it has to be done.
I do see that the prototype modeler who wants accurate models of particular engines almost has to seek out brass, often very old and abused brass, unless they are lucky enough to model a road that has been well treated by one of the premium non-brass makers. But even if the new Broadway Limited Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 is a perfect model, the modeler who models the Milwaukee Road in steam days still needs steam switchers, Mikados, Pacifics, Praries, and so on -- and that means brass. I now see that I was perhaps in error -- brass does not take just money. If you really intend to paint, letter, and operate the stuff it calls for skills. Sort of like owning a Model T Ford - ya gotta get out and get under.
Dave Nelson
I look at brass as a way to acquire models of locomotives, and rolling stock, especially passenger cars, that are not available otherwise, except for scratch building or heavily modifying other models out there.
I own only one brass loco, a Sunset Prestige Modern K4s just as a parts loco for my 1361 project. I'd like more brass models over time, especially if I don't like the alternatives. As to whether or not brass is "worthwhile", depends on the piece, and depends on the individual. For me, a brass model is worthwhile if the price does not seem out of line, and I want to neither scratch build, kitbash, or do without. Plus, the amount of work to get a model looking good and running well will determine whether I think the piece will be a worthwhile investment.
Shortly before returning home to Germany at the end of a year as an exchange student to the US, I had the chance to ride the narrow gauge steam train from Durango to Silverton. That moment, the narrow gauge bug had infested me and I never gor rid of it since. A year after my return, I ordered a Westside Model Company D & RGW T-12, a brass model, made in Japan, which sold for a little over $ 100 in those days - a fortune with the exchange rate to Deutschmark being close to 4 to 1! You yould buy two Marklin Swiss Crocodiles for that money!
About half a year after I had ordered it, the loco arrived, but what a disappointment! While the detail was fine (a lot less detailed than those Blackstone HOn3 beauties of today), the loco had a hitch in the git-along and hardly pulled its weight. I painted it, lettered it, put it back in its box and forget about it - for over 38 years! It´s my only brass loco and one of these days I will have some sort of a layout for it to run - never mind the hitch.
Looking at the quality and detail of today´s Blackstone loco, I am inclined to say that brass locos are beyond their prime these days!
The price of brass models on the second-hand market has been coming down. Some very good items are available at very reasonable prices today.
Many comments here reaffirm my original contention that there was a broad spectrum as far as the quality, accuracy, reliability, and general value of brass items vs. those made of other materials. It's true that some brass importers sold items that never were much good, even when new. Most of my brass models came from reputable importers such as PFM, Max Gray, Akane, Westside, Overland, and Key. I'm also fortunate to have a couple real prizes from W&R and Challenger Imports. Some --- especially the early ones --- have details that can be improved, but the mechanisms are generally solid and square, even if they might be improved with more up-to-date gearboxes and/or motors.
Running quality of some engines --- especially small ones --- was sometimes very poor. Some of those could be turned into fine runners with some tinkering. I suspect Ulrich's narrow gauge Ten Wheeler could have been improved with the addition of a tender drive and as much added weight as possible over the drivers. I have a friend who did that to a Westside PRR D16sb 4-4-0 (a notoriously poor runner) and turned it into a little jewel.
It's possible to form brass into complex shapes, but many early brass diesels were inaccurate in comparison with much less expensive plastic products. This was evident in the noses of a lot of early models of EMD E and F units. Dave Nelson's comments in this regard are spot on.
Current models frequently use a lot of engineering plastic, which is fine as long as it doesn't fail. Once it does fail, repair of the part is just about impossible, and replacements are often unavailable. Sometimes it's possible to fabricate a replacement from plastic or --- guess what --- BRASS!
A lot of early brass freight and passenger cars had trucks that were absolutely horrible. I've turned some real dogs into fine pieces by changing out trucks.
In many cases, a brass piece is the only model ever produced for a specific prototype. If that's the item you want, then that's the item you'll look for. If it's one of the many high quality brass models, then you're in luck (assuming the price is right). If it's a dog, then you can either pass on it or do what you need to do to improve it.
So it all depends.
One has to remember that the golden age of brass was when the modeler was expected to have to do some "tuning" to get the best running from a model, where as today we have come to expect near perfect running right out of the box. I got into brass steam in my teens, because it was much easier to work on, and geared engines ran so much better. I have stuck with mostly PFM/United, Tenshodo and Akane models. Pretty bullet proof drive trains, easily remotored or sometimes just replacing the magnet with ones from Micromark takes care of the issue. Most of the PFM motors ran really smooth and quiet, as long as the magnet is strong. Isolation of the two brushes is all that is required to isolate a open frame motor for DCC. I have large Pittman motors that draw under 1 amp under anything but a full stall and I have to manualy stall the drivers, on the rails they will slip before a full stall happens. Also remember that these models are very old now, a full tear down, cleaning dried up and congelled grease out of gearboxs and gear teeth is required to get a model running correctly. The old magnet at the rear of the motor will not be up to full strength after all these years, I usualy try a stacking some of the new Neo-magnets from Micromark or whoever has them at the shows before I go the more expensive route of a can motor, also more labor intensive than just stacking magnets in the motor frame. To me reworking a brass model to where it will run as smooth and quiet as a Kato diesel is very rewarding and enjoyable. I do this for several members of the local club and have had gentlemen send me models to rework. Right now I am dealing with an abandoned project of putting NWSL gear boxes in a NJ Custom Brass by GOM, N&W Y3 mallet. I almost have it done, motor is a nice little Sagami that came in the box of parts I got with the model. This one is for my good friend Steve. For idea on how good prices can be. I scored a late run PFM/United B&O 2-8-0, pro painted and weathered(but in a home road name), PFM sound installed, micro lighting and a really nice box for $100 at a show a week ago. I got the almost new in the box PFM sound/throtte console for under 10 bucks. Why, nobody wants the older technology and he was tired of lugging the heavy thing around. Same goes for older brass, the market is way down on common models from what it was just a few years ago. Great time to be looking to buy. A local dealer has a PFM Southern Pacific, no box and an early run, but a steal at $125. Or a HOn3 PFM K27 for $175 with the box. I can remember when that K27 would be nearly $300 or even more. Brass isnt for everybody, some get a bad taste buy jumping in to quickly and buying a poor model. I had a friend that was also a dealer and he made sure I got a good model for my first one and didnt get into the so/so models that need work till I was ready and able to do the needed tuning to make it run well. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I still have a few brass, A Katsumi two cylinder shay and two other shays by others. The Katsumi runs great, always have, the other two, think one is a United and the other KTM won't run properly, might want to put in the work eventually to get them to work right but they won't be an easy fix. I have lots of chances to buy brass now for cheap but I just pass them up. The one brass I would consider (a shop engine), have not gone down in price, still selling for $400 plus.
I bought, sold, traded and played with brass models during the 1990's and 2000's, and then focused on house and family for several years.
BLI and others have made remarkable advancements in die-casting and modeling HO steam power. The latest BLI PRR H10s 2-8-0 features tremendously clean metal castings and truly exceptional factory painting. Yet at the same time the brass hybrids coming in, essentially "low cost" brass models rivaling some Sunset imports, are at still another level of detailing, fit, and finish above the more typical BLI and competitors' offerings.
There is a place on my layout for both. I play with both. Now 47, I'm just buying the steam power that I like without regard for whether it's Paragon2, or 3, or MTH or Genesis or brass. There are no shelf queens; everything I have gets run.
According to noted collectors like Howard Zane, properly maintained brass models will actually generally outlast the BLI, MTH, etc. offerings...I haven't run any enough yet to know for sure. I think the very latest BLI offerings might give brass a run for their money, though earlier ones were not perhaps quite as durable.
I can say that some of the finest HO brass models do actually have stainless steel driver tires and valve gear, such that you can run and run and run them without any apparent wear. I have no qualms about buying brass models today but am just more selective now that I have a better idea of what I like and want than years ago.
John
PRR8259 the brass hybrids coming in, essentially "low cost" brass models rivaling some Sunset imports, are at still another level of detailing, fit, and finish above the more typical BLI and competitors' offerings.
Several of the BLI locomotives ARE brass hybrids:
http://www.broadway-limited.com/brass-hybridseries.aspx
I have several of the streamlined Hudsons and the NYC Mohawks and they are indeed a great value.
PRR8259According to noted collectors like Howard Zane, properly maintained brass models will actually generally outlast the BLI, MTH, etc. offerings...
"Properly maintained..." there's the rub! I have maybe 2 dozen brass models from Overland, Sunset, Key, LMB, NJ Custom and W&R. Every one has had to have some kind of repair—often minor, sometimes major—usually with drive-line components.
On the other hand, many of my "mass-produced" Athearn, Atlas, Kato and even BLI locomotives probably belong to the "million-mile club".
I'm pretty sure most of the models that I have in brass will probably never (in my lifetime, anyway) be produced for the mass market... but 'ya never know!
Baldwin Centipedes? PRR Turbine? Commodore Vanderbilt? The Canadian steam from Rapido!
Never say never
Ed
When the model railroad bug hit me again I was nearing retirement. I had started a few layout previoulsy, but never a substantial layout.
This time I careflully planed my layout and thanks to a few pc programs was able to map out a very detailed layout in advance, before even starting construction.
I had opted for a few new engines, mainly Spectrum steam engines as they were by far the most detailed and are quite good runners.
As I progressed with the contstruction of my layout I had hoped to eventually have accurate models of both CPR and CNR as well as GN equiipment as those were the rail lines I opted to model.
Reality being that there were few models of Canadian steamers avaiilable to me and I wanted to model the time frame from the 1930's to the 1950's.
As luck would have it, I came across a couple of auctions of rather large layouts of mainly Canadian brass engines in HO scale.
A few years ago, not sure If it still holds true but on line Canadian model train auctions seems to go almost unnoticed by American model railroad hobbiests, or there was just very little interest in Canadian Steam at that time. For a while there were very few serious bidders.
End result I was qute fortunate to be able to obtain Canadian steam engines for a fraction of their retail value as posted in various publications that valued brass model railroad equipment.
I have found that even the older open frame motors were qute easy to modify with new rare earth magnets and that conversion to DCC was actually quite easy. As far as running charactreristics, I found it only necessary to regear a few of my brass locomotives in order to obtain engines with quite accepatable running characteristics.
A few years later I have a few dozen ho steam engines in each of my prefereed railroads, the CPR, the CNR and the Great Northern.
All of these engines run fine, have great detail and are excellent copies of their real counterparts. Also, if I wanted detailed models of real steam engines I had no option but to obtain brass models.
emdmike One has to remember that the golden age of brass was when the modeler was expected to have to do some "tuning" to get the best running from a model, where as today we have come to expect near perfect running right out of the box.
One has to remember that the golden age of brass was when the modeler was expected to have to do some "tuning" to get the best running from a model, where as today we have come to expect near perfect running right out of the box.
This points out one of my gripes about this hobby. With just about any other product we buy, if it doesn't work perfectly right out of the box, we take it back to the store for replacement or refund. That is how it should be. But for some reason in this hobby we have come to accept that even brand new equipment might have to be tweaked to get it to operate properly. That is true of locos, rolling, stock, turnouts, etc. I think that attitude persists to this day. Since we are so accepting of this, many manufacturers are lax on quality control.
jecorbett emdmike One has to remember that the golden age of brass was when the modeler was expected to have to do some "tuning" to get the best running from a model, where as today we have come to expect near perfect running right out of the box. This points out one of my gripes about this hobby. With just about any other product we buy, if it doesn't work perfectly right out of the box, we take it back to the store for replacement or refund. That is how it should be. But for some reason in this hobby we have come to accept that even brand new equipment might have to be tweaked to get it to operate properly. That is true of locos, rolling, stock, turnouts, etc. I think that attitude persists to this day. Since we are so accepting of this, many manufacturers are lax on quality control.
Well, it is a carryover from the days when EVERYTHING was a kit to some degree or another. Even an Athearn Blue Box loco needed the handrails installed, etc.
The problem is that even with NMRA/industry standards, manufacturers cannot anticipate every variation of user conditions - so often they don't try to........
Try as we might, in my view, this will never be a "plug and play" hobby. Actually I think it would be a sad day if it ever was. Marklin likely is the closest we would ever get to that - but being one brand they can control how everything interacts - and the prices relect that effort.
At the prices it would take to get perfect out of the box performance, I would get out of this hobby fast.
I'm very happy to buy a $100-$200 Bachmann loco and do a little tweeking rather than pay $500 or $1000.
Respectfully, I have said this before, maybe this is not really the hobby for you? Or, as I have also said to others before, I guess your not really in the same hobby as me.
I like my version of the hobby, and I have very few problems or complaints with the products I buy for this hobby. But then again, I like to build things..........
I only have some brass rolling stock, such as a couple of passenger cars and some brass cabooses; no engines - which were always out of my budget.
Even to this day, the only way to have correct cabooses for standard gauge D&RGW is brass. As is true with many railroads, correct passenger cars were only obtainable by brass or very talented scratchbuilding or kitbashing.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Respectfully, I have said this before, maybe this is not really the hobby for you? Or, as I have also said to others before, I guess your not really in the same hobby as me.
Amazing that you would preface such a condescending remark with the work "Respectfully".
A few more thoughts about "out of the box perfect".
First off, perfect on one layout may not run perfect on another............
Unrealistic expectations related to the comment above - Big Boys on 18" radius.....etc.
It is interesting that every $200 Bachmann loco I have ever had a problem with was quickly replaced by them.
But every $300 to $500 BLI loco I have had problems with was struggle to get good service from them........
Back to brass - some was/is darn good out ofthe box, some were never good - no different than their die cast/plastic counterparts......
If I have still not made it clear, even "perfect" is subjective. One guy buys a loco, and has no problems - he is pulling 20 car trains on level track around 36" radius curves and #8 turnouts. Another guy buys the loco and calls it a piece of junk - he tries to pull 40 cars up 3% grades around 20" radius curves and thru #4 turnouts.......it derails constantly........
But what do I know, I once worked in several hobby shops and have been doing this for 40 years......
jecorbett One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout.
In the early days of the hobby, a much greater number of modelers were freelancers, so they might want that loco, but not lettered for the prototype.......
And of course it would have cost even more painted - it is/was a hobby of craftsmanship.....
jecorbett ATLANTIC CENTRAL Respectfully, I have said this before, maybe this is not really the hobby for you? Or, as I have also said to others before, I guess your not really in the same hobby as me. Amazing that you would preface such a condescending remark with the work "Respectfully".
You are the one with all the "gripes", I think the hobby, and its products are great?
The ones that don't suit my needs, skills or budget, I simply don't buy.......
ATLANTIC CENTRAL jecorbett ATLANTIC CENTRAL Respectfully, I have said this before, maybe this is not really the hobby for you? Or, as I have also said to others before, I guess your not really in the same hobby as me. Amazing that you would preface such a condescending remark with the work "Respectfully". You are the one with all the "gripes", I think the hobby, and its products are great? The ones that don't suit my needs, skills or budget, I simply don't buy....... Sheldon
I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. We're all entitled to our opinions and all have a right to express them. Where do you get off telling me this isn't the hobby for me? That's the second time you have said that to me and I let it slide the first time but if you are going keep repeating it, it's coming back at you.
I've been in this hobby as long as you, longer if you count the few years I was in it as a kid in the early 1960s. I've seen a lot of changes in this hobby and much of it has been for the better. If you want to continue to do things the way they were done back in the 1970s, that's your privilage. I don't think it is at all unreasonable to expect that manufacturers give us better products today than we got 40 years ago. Progress is about making things simpler and easier to use and of better quality. We get that in just about every other phase of our lives. Why shouldn't we expect the same from the model railroading industry.
jecorbettOne thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. ... Progress is about making things simpler and easier to use and of better quality. We get that in just about every other phase of our lives. Why shouldn't we expect the same from the model railroading industry.
...
Progress is about making things simpler and easier to use and of better quality. We get that in just about every other phase of our lives. Why shouldn't we expect the same from the model railroading industry.
I don't always agree with Sheldon but I do have to agree with him in respect to the "quality of time" spent fixing up/tweaking a model or locomotive to one's liking. It doesn't mean you have to start with a "box of sticks" or an unpainted piece of rolling stock. It's the creating, nurturing, embellishing aspect that some folks really enjoy and others don't care at all for.
I don't do it often but I enjoy working with wood. I don't have a fancy table saw or drive press to work with. All I have is a good-quality circular saw and hand drill and various home-made jigs to make the cuts and drill the holes that I need. Yea, it may take me a bit of time to create an accurate jig for making a consistent 45-degree cut at the same place on all for four sides of a post. When I do it right though, it's VERY gratifying.
A project could take me weeks-to-months to accomplish; primarily because my workshop has to be the garage. Could I pay someone to make the cuts or build the project for me? Sure...but it would take the personal enjoyment out of gluing it all together (w/o screws), sanding, and staining & finishing it. I personally find that enjoyable. The only "better quality" I'm concerned about is the quality of the carbide blade, drill bits, or wood I'm using.
Buy what appeals to you; ignore or don't patronize product lines that don't fit into your philosphy for MRRing.
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ATLANTIC CENTRALBut what do I know, I once worked in several hobby shops and have been doing this for 40 years...
I've worked in a couple of hobby shops too but really don't think it makes me anymore an expert than anyone else, nor is a credential. It's like saying I worked in a Taco Bell and a Wendy's so I can be an expert on food.
You are the one with all the "gripes", I think the hobby, and its products are great? The ones that don't suit my needs, skills or budget, I simply don't buy.......
I agree with this. Yes.
Painting of brass models is very subjective in nature: One person's "beautiful" paint finish might be "way too thick" to someone else, or way too heavily weathered, etc. etc.
Yes, at least for a time there were many purists who wanted brass models to be unpainted, who even ran them that way on layouts so they could show them off and so that all the visitors knew they were high priced brass imports.
BLI is even now offering brass hybrids, painted gold over the brass, with lacquer applied to appeal to those who like them that way.
I would not do that; I tended to buy factory painted whenever possible, and I generally would not buy anything unpainted anymore, as my painters are now deceased or otherwise out of the hobby, but I'm only one person...
tstage jecorbett Progress is about making things simpler and easier to use and of better quality. We get that in just about every other phase of our lives. Why shouldn't we expect the same from the model railroading industry. I don't always agree with Sheldon but I do have to agree with him in respect to the "quality of time" spent fixing up/tweaking a model or locomotive to one's liking. It doesn't mean you have to start with a "box of sticks" or an unpainted piece of rolling stock. It's the creating, nurturing, embellishing aspect that some folks really enjoy and others don't care at all for. I don't do it often but I enjoy working with wood. I don't have a fancy table saw or drive press to work with. All I have is a good-quality circular saw and hand drill and various home-made jigs to make the cuts and drill the holes that I need. Yea, it may take me a bit of time to create an accurate jig for making a consistent 45-degree cut at the same place on all for four sides of a post. When I do it right though, it's very gratifying. A project could take me weeks to accomplish. Could I pay someone to make the cuts or build the project for me? Yea...but it would take the personal enjoyment out of putting it all together, sanding, and staining & finishing it. I find that enjoyable. The ony "better quality" I'm concerned about is the carbide blade, drill bit, or wood I'm using. Buy what appeals to you; ignore or don't patronize product lines that don't fit into your philosphy for mrring. Tom
jecorbett Progress is about making things simpler and easier to use and of better quality. We get that in just about every other phase of our lives. Why shouldn't we expect the same from the model railroading industry.
I don't do it often but I enjoy working with wood. I don't have a fancy table saw or drive press to work with. All I have is a good-quality circular saw and hand drill and various home-made jigs to make the cuts and drill the holes that I need. Yea, it may take me a bit of time to create an accurate jig for making a consistent 45-degree cut at the same place on all for four sides of a post. When I do it right though, it's very gratifying.
A project could take me weeks to accomplish. Could I pay someone to make the cuts or build the project for me? Yea...but it would take the personal enjoyment out of putting it all together, sanding, and staining & finishing it. I find that enjoyable. The ony "better quality" I'm concerned about is the carbide blade, drill bit, or wood I'm using.
Buy what appeals to you; ignore or don't patronize product lines that don't fit into your philosphy for mrring.
If others want to do things the old fashioned way and that gives them satisfaction, I'm the last one who would want to rain on their parade. If people enjoy the process of cutting raw lumber into fitted pieces there are plenty of kit manufacturers that still allow them to do that and they have the option of scratchbuilding as well. I just won't be one of the customers of companies that sell those kind of products because there are simpler and faster ways to accomplish the same thing.
Quality is a seperate issue altogether. I don't think we should be expected to tweak brand new merchandise right out of the box. We can paint and weather RTR rolling stock and built-up structures as we choose but anything mechanical should operate correctly right out of the box. As an example, a number of years ago I bought a curved #8 Walthers turnout and I also had a number of Walthers RTR passenger cars. I had nothing but problems with those cars negotioting that turnout. Neither of these were low end products. When a brand new Walthers passenger car can't negotiate a brand new turnout there is something wrong with either or both. I know Walthers is a distributor, not a manufacturer, but they put their name on it and should be held accountable for the quality of it.
Since you seem to be experienced with kit building and/or scratch building, I'd like to ask you a question. Quite a few years ago I bought a large craftsman kit and am just now getting around to building it. I bought it at the NMRA convention when it was held in Columbus, OH whatever year that was. The framing portion of it is nothing more than a box of sticks that need to be cut to fit. From past experience with several South River kits that required the same thing, I have had difficulty making perfectly square cuts. I used a razor saw and a miter box to do the cutting but the slots it the miter box had enough space to allow the saw to twist slightly as I cut the piece preventing a perfect perpendicular cut. Since everything is butt jointed, it is imperative that the wood be cut perfectly perpindicular to get a tight joint. What method do you use to cut raw lumber so you get a good clean and square cut?
Jecorbett,
There are lots of us out there that still build board by board and do lots of stuff the way they did in the old days… Not because we are frozen in the past but because it gives us the results that we want and there isn’t a “modern” way to get there.
The modelers I know that use the old school techniques are also into laser cut kits, shapeways fabricating and other modern modelling techniques. We choose to combine the best of the old school with the better results achieved by modern techniques and processes. The hobby has made great strides in the last 40 years, but there are some things like grab irons that still are done the same way they were many years ago…
I hear you on some of the things you are saying – doing stuff the difficult way for nostalgia sake is not something I enjoy. For this reason I will often scratch build something rather than deal with older kits where I have to wrestle old technology into a passable but not great model when compared to today’s standards. I avoid many of the older brands of kits for this reason.
As for wood cuts – if the stock is small, the NWSL chopper gets close enough, if the stock it large – I use a sander to true up the cuts. The most important part is making sure that you glue up the parts square. There will always be slop when you are gluing scale stock together – I use fixtures and 1,2,3, blocks as well as gluing templates to keep things square.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Brass – If you want accurate steam engines, cabooses or passenger cars, most of the time you are talking brass. Pre Blackstone, all narrow gauge locos were/are brass (I don’t count MDC). Most of the local layouts that hold ops sessions are all brass rosters. I own 15 brass steam locos – they are some of my best detailed and smoothest running locos. They are also some of my biggest headaches as well. I also have a significant roster of brass cabooses and passenger cars. I have painted a fair number of the locos and other equipment myself as well as re motoring and fixing.
Since I model West Coast short lines (HHRR, YV, SERA) and SP (1935-50ish), there is very little proto specific for those lines outside of brass. Even in brass there wouldn’t be a whole lot if it weren’t for a few makers (Beaver Creek, Westside, Sunset and PFM). I have found a lucky niche in that regard but every brass piece requires the work or the bucks to bring it up to running level. I have lots of $$$ tied up in locos that are unpainted. That is soon to change but not without lots of time and effort on my part.
I started out by buying Spectrum plastic stand – ins. They run great and look good – even if they aren’t road specific. I have since re-lettered and modified a few to get them to be close enough for the road. After I had a good running roster, I branched out into brass. I cut my modeling teeth with a bunch of hard core, Ops based narrow gauge’rs and that makes all the brass stuff seem normal…I have to remind myself that I am in a bit of a bubble in that regard.
Where the rub comes in - So many people overlook the amount of effort to get a brass loco up to the level of a Spectrum or any of the current plastic hybrids that run great out of the box, need no painting and often come with sound/DCC installed. If you don’t enjoy this type of modeling, brass will drive you crazy – Finishing, Fixing and maintaining brass can become a hobby within a hobby. I try to be a well- rounded modeler so I do a little of everything if possible. My brass experience has been overall very rewarding and enjoyable (although frustrating at times).
If your goal is a large, fully scenicked operations based railroad, you might come to resent the time you have to spend on fixing brass and decide to model lines that well represented with modern plastic or go the stand- in route. So much to do on the layout, so little time…
jecorbett Since you seem to be experienced with kit building and/or scratch building, I'd like to ask you a question. Quite a few years ago I bought a large craftsman kit and am just now getting around to building it. I bought it at the NMRA convention when it was held in Columbus, OH whatever year that was. The framing portion of it is nothing more than a box of sticks that need to be cut to fit. From past experience with several South River kits that required the same thing, I have had difficulty making perfectly square cuts. I used a razor saw and a miter box to do the cutting but the slots it the miter box had enough space to allow the saw to twist slightly as I cut the piece preventing a perfect perpendicular cut. Since everything is butt jointed, it is imperative that the wood be cut perfectly perpindicular to get a tight joint. What method do you use to cut raw lumber so you get a good clean and square cut?
I bought my first brass loco, a B&M B-15 Mogul, from the collection of the owner of my LHS. It ran almost not at all, but it was brass and was less than a hundred bucks.
I re-motored it, changed a couple of minor details, then painted it for my freelanced road:
Later on, I gave it a more thorough makeover, using both brass and styrene to make it into a more modern-looking locomotive:
During that time I was painting for the same hobbyshop, and eventually became good friends with a couple of customers there. One was strictly a brass collector, while the other expected his brass to run as well as the state-of-the-art plastic diesels which he also used on his large layout.For these two, especially, I learned to do mechanical work to ensure that all of their locos ran well and that they all looked good, too. The collector wanted his locos to match specific CNR prototypes, and, in most cases, that meant altering brass (and later, plastic diesels, too). For the one who wanted them to run well, I was kept busy re-motoring, re-gearing, and also altering them for better performance.While both were able to afford extensive collections, neither was concerned about the market value of their collection, only that it met their particular requirements.Through this work, I got to see a lot of brass and came to admire certain ones, prompting me to buy another myself. It came with a so-so paint job and needed some mechanical work, but also didn't have its original box (a must for most collectors). I got it at a good price, repaired it and modified it a bit, then gave it a new paint job. Here it is with my friend's similar loco:
My latest brass loco came from another friend. I had done some mechanical work on it, including all-wheel pick-up, but he was concerned because it wouldn't pull as much as a much larger brass 0-8-0 on which I had done similar modifications. He mentioned that he was going to sell it, and I asked about the price. "Do you want it?", he asked. "Maybe", I replied, "....depending on the price." "If you want it, it's yours."We bantered back and forth for a bit, as I was quite willing to pay a reasonable amount for it, but he refused to sell it to me, insisting that I take it or he would sell it elsewhere.I did manage to do a bunch of work for him on other locos, so he felt that fair (even though I do the work for free anyway).Once I had the loco in-hand, I managed to find a few places to add weight, and offered it back to him, but he wouldn't take it, despite the fact that it'll now move an 18 car drag. I also added a few details and repainted it, too:
I have another nine locomotives of my own, non-brass, that need to be re-worked in various ways, so I don't need any more locos. However, there are four CNR locos, available in brass, in which I might be interested, but only if they were at really bargain basement prices.
Wayne
dknelson jecorbett One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout. Well I suspect at least some purchasers/collectors wanted to keep it unpainted for its jewel-like prettiness. Ironically the importers eventually started to have the engines PAINTED a brass color to look even nicer (and to prevent the tarnish which raw unpainted brass was subject to). Supposedly the brass colored paint made a good primer, but most guys I know stripped it off and started over if they wanted to paint their engines. You can really appreciate the skilled soldering involved when it is unpainted. Also since purchasers of brass were often more advanced, they would often unsolder and move the details around to match a particular example of the engine in question since, as is discussed in another thread on the Forums, there was great variety within a class of engines even within the same time frame. And some guys were more fussy about detail parts and made changes to their engines so again, they would prefer it not be painted. As noted earlier back in the prime brass years lots of guys had their own railroad name and numbers for engines so again, a painted version would not be what they'd want. (And often "their" railroad had different standards for where the headlight was placed, the generator, and so on, so again they'd be moving stuff around. Or they'd be swapping out tenders. Note also that when brass was sold unpainted, a lot of guys were also buying undecorated plastic models for a variety of reasons - they felt they could do a better or more accurate job, or had their own ideas about things. If you have copies of Railroad Model Craftsman from the 1960s, the late Bill Schopp would tear brass locomotives apart and use them as parts for kitbashing. So again there was a part of the market for which painted brass would have not been desired. But there WERE painted brass engines, from PFM and others. I think it is fair to say they were in the minority. Dave Nelson
Lots of interesting information above. I don't doubt any of it. It does amaze me that guys would shell out what brass engines cost in those days just to tear it apart and rebuild to their liking. I guess I've never been that fussy about that level of detail. I would never consider paying the asking price for brass, painted or unpainted, then or now, but apparently it was worth it to some. I do have one brass loco which I picked up for a song at an estate sale. Really nice detail. I ran it a few times on my old DC layout and it ran really smoothly. I think I said earlier it was a 2-8-8-2 logger. Actually it is a 2-6-6-2. It's been a while since I last looked at it and even longer since I ran it. I wish I could find a use for it on my current layout but it just doesn't belong. If I was going to put it to use, I'd find somebody to paint it and install a sound decoder. That would probably cost more than the finished product would be worth.
jecorbett dknelson jecorbett One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout. Well I suspect at least some purchasers/collectors wanted to keep it unpainted for its jewel-like prettiness. Ironically the importers eventually started to have the engines PAINTED a brass color to look even nicer (and to prevent the tarnish which raw unpainted brass was subject to). Supposedly the brass colored paint made a good primer, but most guys I know stripped it off and started over if they wanted to paint their engines. You can really appreciate the skilled soldering involved when it is unpainted. Also since purchasers of brass were often more advanced, they would often unsolder and move the details around to match a particular example of the engine in question since, as is discussed in another thread on the Forums, there was great variety within a class of engines even within the same time frame. And some guys were more fussy about detail parts and made changes to their engines so again, they would prefer it not be painted. As noted earlier back in the prime brass years lots of guys had their own railroad name and numbers for engines so again, a painted version would not be what they'd want. (And often "their" railroad had different standards for where the headlight was placed, the generator, and so on, so again they'd be moving stuff around. Or they'd be swapping out tenders. Note also that when brass was sold unpainted, a lot of guys were also buying undecorated plastic models for a variety of reasons - they felt they could do a better or more accurate job, or had their own ideas about things. If you have copies of Railroad Model Craftsman from the 1960s, the late Bill Schopp would tear brass locomotives apart and use them as parts for kitbashing. So again there was a part of the market for which painted brass would have not been desired. But there WERE painted brass engines, from PFM and others. I think it is fair to say they were in the minority. Dave Nelson Lots of interesting information above. I don't doubt any of it. It does amaze me that guys would shell out what brass engines cost in those days just to tear it apart and rebuild to their liking. I guess I've never been that fussy about that level of detail. I would never consider paying the asking price for brass, painted or unpainted, then or now, but apparently it was worth it to some. I do have one brass loco which I picked up for a song at an estate sale. Really nice detail. I ran it a few times on my old DC layout and it ran really smoothly. I think I said earlier it was a 2-8-8-2 logger. Actually it is a 2-6-6-2. It's been a while since I last looked at it and even longer since I ran it. I wish I could find a use for it on my current layout but it just doesn't belong. If I was going to put it to use, I'd find somebody to paint it and install a sound decoder. That would probably cost more than the finished product would be worth.
About being fussy and/or spending money:
I have about 800 freight cars. They range from Athearn Blue Box kits, and 50 year old Varney and Athern metal side kits, resin kits, advanced plastic kits, old wood and metal kits, to some of the latest high end products, and some of the latest mid range RTR.
But 90% of them have two things in common - genuine Kadee couplers (100% on this item) and my special truck set up. I take Kadee sprung metal freight trucks and replace the wheel sets with Intermountain metal wheel/metal axle wheel sets.
So nearly every freight car has about $10 worth of trucks and couplers no mater the cost of the car in the first place - the performance is worth the money and the time to change them over.
My two brass locos have been modified, tuned, tenders replaced, made to fit into my freelanced fleet. Neither was real expensive, but not yard sale steals either......
I'm not always real fussy about level of detail, but I am very concerned with creating a family look to my freelanced loco fleet. Nearly all my locos have been modified in some way to that end.
I find the O.P.'s attitude toward modifications interesting, and maybe that's the subject of an entirely new thread. I don't want to send this one off on a tangent, but it's interesting that there is so much reluctance to modify models, especially steam locos. I witnessed steam in its final years, and have collected hundreds of photos since. I like the idea of running models of engines that actually operated in my target time and location, and I'd rather have them look like the prototype. That's where the photo collection comes in. On the same class of engine, you could find a New York air pump, or a Westinghouse cross-compound, or two single pumps. Similarly, I have seen at least three different types of tender on B&O E-24a 2-8-0's, and I like the idea of modifying my E-24a's to suit specific prototypes. Brass engines allow this, and many more recent plastic ones can also be modified similarly. To me, I consider myself a modeler --- not just a purchaser. I may buy the model off the shelf, but the modeler in me wants it to represent something specific, and I'll change it in whatever way I need to. Currently I'm modifying a brass Sunset PRR H8/9 2-8-0 to represent a specific H10s engine as it appeared in 1949. I've had to modify the valve chests, cab, and running boards, and am now doing some extensive reworking on the tender. To me, that's what it is to be a modeler. YMMV.
Now back to the subject at hand.
ACY I find the O.P.'s attitude toward modifications interesting, and maybe that's the subject of an entirely new thread. I don't want to send this one off on a tangent, but it's interesting that there is so much reluctance to modify models, especially steam locos. I witnessed steam in its final years, and have collected hundreds of photos since. I like the idea of running models of engines that actually operated in my target time and location, and I'd rather have them look like the prototype. That's where the photo collection comes in. On the same class of engine, you could find a New York air pump, or a Westinghouse cross-compound, or two single pumps. Similarly, I have seen at least three different types of tender on B&O E-24a 2-8-0's, and I like the idea of modifying my E-24a's to suit specific prototypes. Brass engines allow this, and many more recent plastic ones can also be modified similarly. To me, I consider myself a modeler --- not just a purchaser. I may buy the model off the shelf, but the modeler in me wants it to represent something specific, and I'll change it in whatever way I need to. Currently I'm modifying a brass Sunset PRR H8/9 2-8-0 to represent a specific H10s engine as it appeared in 1949. I've had to modify the valve chests, cab, and running boards, and am now doing some extensive reworking on the tender. To me, that's what it is to be a modeler. YMMV. Now back to the subject at hand. Tom
By that narrow definition of a modeler, freelancers aren't modelers since we aren't modeling something that ever existed. One thing about being a freelancer is the freedom it allows me. I don't have to any need to be a rivet counter. I don't have to worry that the pilot is wrong for a particular road number. My whole layout is "wrong".
Just so I don't start a flame war, I am not knocking rivet counters. If modeling a specific prototype as precisely as is possible is what gives them satisifaction, that's a matter of choice. It's just not something that appeals to me. That's why RTR equipment works just fine for me whether it is prototypically accurate or not. It also gives me license to include other things as well. If I can invented a fictional railroad serving fictional towns, does it really matter that my jade green NYC boxcars were not around in the year I am modeling (1956).
Prototype modelers have the challenge of modeling something that existed as faithfully as possible. Freelancers have the challenge of modeling something that looks like it could have existed.
dknelson jecorbett Since you seem to be experienced with kit building and/or scratch building, I'd like to ask you a question. Quite a few years ago I bought a large craftsman kit and am just now getting around to building it. I bought it at the NMRA convention when it was held in Columbus, OH whatever year that was. The framing portion of it is nothing more than a box of sticks that need to be cut to fit. From past experience with several South River kits that required the same thing, I have had difficulty making perfectly square cuts. I used a razor saw and a miter box to do the cutting but the slots it the miter box had enough space to allow the saw to twist slightly as I cut the piece preventing a perfect perpendicular cut. Since everything is butt jointed, it is imperative that the wood be cut perfectly perpindicular to get a tight joint. What method do you use to cut raw lumber so you get a good clean and square cut? If Tom cares to answer I'll be interested to see it since it is a real challenge to do this with the usual hobbyist miter box, and good alternative ideas are always worth hearing and trying. I would merely mention that new and really narrow miter box that MicroMark is selling these days, and the very thin blades to go with it (the slots in their small miter box are too narrow for the usual saw blade, so I advise also getting their blades when you get the miter box). That might be one way to give you the accuracy you seek. Dave Nelson
Thanks. I'll look into that. I don't have a current MicroMark catalog but I seem to remember seeing mini-power saws but I have no idea what the price is. I'll have to go online to check what they have.
Folks, there's nothing wrong with discussing brass locomotives, but when people start impugning how others choose to enjoy their hobby, my antenna goes up. Let's all get along and play nice. Because I really don't care about brass as a topic, and if I have to actually read this whole thread to pick out what's on topic and what's a veiled slam against someone else, I may just decide it's easier to lock it. So... play nice.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
dknelson jecorbett Since you seem to be experienced with kit building and/or scratch building, I'd like to ask you a question. Quite a few years ago I bought a large craftsman kit and am just now getting around to building it. I bought it at the NMRA convention when it was held in Columbus, OH whatever year that was. The framing portion of it is nothing more than a box of sticks that need to be cut to fit. From past experience with several South River kits that required the same thing, I have had difficulty making perfectly square cuts. I used a razor saw and a miter box to do the cutting but the slots it the miter box had enough space to allow the saw to twist slightly as I cut the piece preventing a perfect perpendicular cut. Since everything is butt jointed, it is imperative that the wood be cut perfectly perpindicular to get a tight joint. What method do you use to cut raw lumber so you get a good clean and square cut? If Tom cares to answer I'll be interested to see it since it is a real challenge to do this with the usual hobbyist miter box, and good alternative ideas are always worth hearing and trying. Dave Nelson
Dave & jecorbett,
I've used both the X-acto aluminum miter box with their precision razor saw blade and the NWSL Chopper II to make precision cuts:
The Chopper II seems to work best on thinner stock 1/8" or <. Otherwise, the single-edge blade seems to deflect as you cut the piece. And, you are correct - the slot in the X-acto miter box allows for some slop. I find if I gently press the side of the razor saw blade against the left side of the slot so that it's flush and make cuts in the material by only drawing the blade towards me (rather than in a back-and-forth sawing motion), the blade is less likely to twist and I achieve a straighter cut. It takes practice. Even then - I sometime have to file the end slightly to square it up.
Hopefully the above explanation makes sense...
I model in N scale. I have a few brass engines representing models that are not availabele in plastic RTR versions (e.g. a Samhongsa GE U33C). Today there are very few brass engines that I would like to purchase that are not made in RTR that are of good quality and are good runners. There is a site that reviews all of the N scale locomotives ever made and he is pretty thorugh and honest about them. A lot of the N scalers use his site as a reference guide for both brass and RTR locomotives.
As I mentioned before I obtained most of my brass locomotives at auctions. I found that very few bidders were interested in the poorly painted locomotives, or those that would take some TLC to get running again.
Those were mainly the locomotives that interested in me. The unpainted brass in excellent condition as I remember usually went for a premium, while those poorly painted and scraped usually went for a bargain price. Also, is a detail piece or two was missing, once again very little interest. There is still an excellent supply of detail parts available so while they might be missing a bell or whistle replacements were readily available. Especially misc piping and valves.
As I have a sand blasting cabinet, note that baking soda is now used primarily to remove paint form brass models. It was very easy to remove all of the paint off those brass engines that required repainting.
Not only was the paint removed, sand blasting left a great finish on the brass for paint and/or primer to adhere to. I also became somewhat practiced at using a compressor and paint gun as well.
Most of the brass engines I have on my layout are not available in model form from any manufacturer as they are Canadian railway engines.
tstage Dave & jecorbett, I've used both the X-acto aluminum miter box with their precision razor saw blade and the NWSL Chopper II to make precision cuts: Tom
Tom,
I have the same Exacto miter box and razor saw that you have pictured. I must have NWSL Chopper I because mine looks like a clipboard with a chopping arm and blade attached to it. I used that building the timber framing from the South River 5 stall Roundhouse. That was about 10 years ago and my memory is that I didn't get the nice square cuts I needed. It seemed to give me a little twist as well when I cut the 1/8" sticks. I'm wondering if the Chopper II is a significant improvement as far as making straight cuts.
I was on MicroMark's web page yesterday and they have a power mini-chopsaw for $73 and changed. That seems a lot for something that I don't know how much I will use after this one project but it might be the best bet for making square cuts.
Thanks for the reply.
dknelson tstage Dave & jecorbett, I've used both the X-acto aluminum miter box with their precision razor saw blade and the NWSL Chopper II to make precision cuts: Tom Tom and jec: the Miter Box from Micro Mark I was talking about is their new one, hardly thicker than my little finger:. They called it the world's smallest miter box and just introduced it. Here is their description: Our Micro Miter Box is sized exclusively for model builders working with micro-size materials. Make the finest 30, 45 and 90 degree miter cuts you've ever seen in wood, metal and plastic strips, rods and tubes up to .235 inch wide x any length! Excellent for cutting brass tubing . . . especially very short pieces used for mast bands and other items. Includes adjustable stop for making duplicate cuts quickly and easily. Works best with our Ultra Fine Saw Blades (#85853, sold separately). Approx. 3-9/16 inches long x 5/8 inches wide x 3/16 inch high. But now I see from their website it is sold out and discontinued! Sorry for the dead end recommendation. Dave Nelson
Dave,
I was going to ask if you had actually used it but that seems pointless now. As I was reading the description I thought I was going to have to choose between that set up and their power mini-chopsaw. I guess the decision has been made for me. Although $73 is a lot to pay for something I don't think I will use that much, I think it will be quite a time saver in addition to giving me precision square cuts so that might make it worthwhile. The project I have in mind is a large 12" x 13" hotel with lots of timber framing. It's been quite a while since I've had to cut a lot of 1/8" lumber but my recollection is it takes quite a few passes with the razor saw to cut clean through it. I can see a power saw saving me many hours as well as giving me much cleaner cuts.
My first brass locomotive was a Hallmark CF7; I had it custom painted and constant lighting & a beacon installed. That was 35 years ago. It was a short circuit waiting to happen. Beautiful model, terrible runner. Of course, it has the same number as one of the Athearn RTR CF7s, to add insult to injury.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL jecorbett One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout. In the early days of the hobby, a much greater number of modelers were freelancers, so they might want that loco, but not lettered for the prototype....... And of course it would have cost even more painted - it is/was a hobby of craftsmanship..... Sheldon
I must be one of those rare people that not only has brass, but runs it, too.
I model the New Haven Railroad almost exclusively. I have no set era, just pre-1969, so I have steam, diesels and electrics with my oldest piece dating back to 1907. The newest loco is from 1965. Almost every NH diesel I can get in plastic these days. But steam and electrics? Only a few have been made in plastic: 4-8-2 R-1, 0-8-0 Y-3 (both USRA designs), and the EF-4 electric (also VGN/PC/CR). BLI has made both 4-6-2's and 4-6-4's, but in Brass Hybrid.
So what is a NH steam or electric fan to do in HO scale without brass?
Well, I buy it, paint it, install DCC, and get it running right. There are some tricks of the trade in doing so, from making sure the weight is balanced over the drivers to making sure that the tender trucks sit square. But for me, this is a fun part of the hobby: taking something that doesn't run well and making it right.
Some brass locos are basketcases, but most are not total losses. A little patience, skill, and thought can make most brass locos run very well.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul3 I must be one of those rare people that not only has brass, but runs it, too. I model the New Haven Railroad almost exclusively. Paul A. Cutler III
I model the New Haven Railroad almost exclusively.
Yeah Paul, but look at what RR you model. Probably much of their rolling stock requires brass. If I were modeling steam era D&RGW, I'd be in the same boat. ALL of their main steam is brass only; anything available in plastic are were short lived or leased such as the UP type steam engines or the 2nd hand N&W articulateds. Basically I can't afford it - and even if I did pick up a few old issue D&RGW std gauge steam in the lower price ranges, I'd have to learn how to make it run well and have it painted etc. Ain't gonna happen. An old acquaintence of mine models 1953 D&RGW and well, he once bragged that he was in the top 3% wage category in the US, so he could afford all that brass.
jecorbett dknelson tstage Dave & jecorbett, I've used both the X-acto aluminum miter box with their precision razor saw blade and the NWSL Chopper II to make precision cuts: Tom Tom and jec: the Miter Box from Micro Mark I was talking about is their new one, hardly thicker than my little finger:. They called it the world's smallest miter box and just introduced it. Here is their description: Our Micro Miter Box is sized exclusively for model builders working with micro-size materials. Make the finest 30, 45 and 90 degree miter cuts you've ever seen in wood, metal and plastic strips, rods and tubes up to .235 inch wide x any length! Excellent for cutting brass tubing . . . especially very short pieces used for mast bands and other items. Includes adjustable stop for making duplicate cuts quickly and easily. Works best with our Ultra Fine Saw Blades (#85853, sold separately). Approx. 3-9/16 inches long x 5/8 inches wide x 3/16 inch high. But now I see from their website it is sold out and discontinued! Sorry for the dead end recommendation. Dave Nelson Dave, I was going to ask if you had actually used it but that seems pointless now. As I was reading the description I thought I was going to have to choose between that set up and their power mini-chopsaw. I guess the decision has been made for me. Although $73 is a lot to pay for something I don't think I will use that much, I think it will be quite a time saver in addition to giving me precision square cuts so that might make it worthwhile. The project I have in mind is a large 12" x 13" hotel with lots of timber framing. It's been quite a while since I've had to cut a lot of 1/8" lumber but my recollection is it takes quite a few passes with the razor saw to cut clean through it. I can see a power saw saving me many hours as well as giving me much cleaner cuts.
riogrande5761 Paul3 I must be one of those rare people that not only has brass, but runs it, too. I model the New Haven Railroad almost exclusively. Paul A. Cutler III Yeah Paul, but look at what RR you model. Probably much of their rolling stock requires brass. If I were modeling steam era D&RGW, I'd be in the same boat. ALL of their main steam is brass only; anything available in plastic are were short lived or leased such as the UP type steam engines or the 2nd hand N&W articulateds. Basically I can't afford it - and even if I did pick up a few old issue D&RGW std gauge steam in the lower price ranges, I'd have to learn how to make it run well and have it painted etc. Ain't gonna happen. An old acquaintence of mine models 1953 D&RGW and well, he once bragged that he was in the top 3% wage category in the US, so he could afford all that brass.
Well, I believe this is where clear goal setting and planning--having some kind of plan--comes in, along with smart shopping.
One can occasionally find a good deal on Rio Grande brass standard gauge steamers. They show up at train shows for far less than the currently advertised online prices. There's two words written in invisible ink on every advertised price: "we hope" as in we hope you'll pay that!
I think if one wants to go in a certain model train direction, and has the time and patience to wait rather than obtain instant or short term gratification, one can actually locate some of those rare steamers affordably. At least I have in the past...once picked up a neat Custom Brass N&W Z1a/DRGW L-76 for only $600 at Timonium. It ran great...I just didn't have a painter for it. Should have kept it.
The Rio Grande steamers are out there to be had. I think the Western Pacific steam is a harder find/more expensive purchase. Their articulateds are less common than Rio Grande.
Respectfully submitted--
John Mock
PRR8259 Well, I believe this is where clear goal setting and planning--having some kind of plan--comes in, along with smart shopping. Respectfully submitted-- John Mock
U-3-b PRR8259 Well, I believe this is where clear goal setting and planning--having some kind of plan--comes in, along with smart shopping. Respectfully submitted-- John Mock When I was in my teens I was one of those purchase anything kind of people. As I result I had a lot of stuff and no real plan. After college and the military, I did like John said above and developed a clear vision and narrowed my focus and have stayed on track for the past 30 years. I am not knocking other modelers and their choices, heck the club that I belong to is a mix of all kinds of eras and models and that is fine, but for me personally I have saved a lot of money having a plan and not buying whatever caught my fancy either on the internet or at train shows. Steve
Well, I've come full circle. I started with no plan and bought what appealed to me. Then I developed a plan and only bought what fit the plan. But now that I have everything I need for the plan (at least what's available), I buy things that appeal to me. In the near future I plan to have what appeals to me layout in addition to the one I planned. I have decided that I enjoy collecting as well as building and running trains.
riogrande5761,I am hardly in the top 3% of wages. I worked retail for 25 years, and that's not exactly the path to fame, glory, and riches. More like . But I save my pennies and get a piece when I can get one. Heck, I picked up my first couple of brass steam engines back when I was still in High School.
I won't deny that I've been very lucky to score some deals on brass. I was given a couple pieces as presents, I inherited a few from friends who've passed on (not my preferred method at all), and I received one in exchange for doing R&D work in getting it made in the first place. I go to half a dozen train shows a year as a dealer, and I've occasionally found a gem for good money. But I've been collecting NH brass for over 20 years and not all of them have been lucky finds. You're bound to find some deals as long as you keep trying.
While I do have a lot of capital tied up in brass models, I don't have a layout any more. And even when I did, there wasn't much on it other than plywood and buildings. I also don't have a smart phone, I don't go on long vacations, I only buy a new PC every 5 or 6 years, I only have basic plus cable, and so on. IOW, I limit my expenses and spend my personal money on certain models that are worth it to me. I'd rather have the NH L-1 2-10-2 that I've had for almost 20 years than a week's camping or unlimited data on my cell.Also, by focusing only on the NH, I don't spend money on hobby things that might otherwise attack my wallet. I see those NS heritage units, and I think they're pretty cool, but I don't buy 'em. I like those Walthers name trains because I'm a sucker for a matched set of equipment, but none of them are in my possession. It's kind of weird, but by concentrating on getting only the best NH models, I actually save a lot of money.
Paul3 riogrande5761,I am hardly in the top 3% of wages. I worked retail for 25 years, and that's not exactly the path to fame, glory, and riches. More like . But I save my pennies and get a piece when I can get one. Heck, I picked up my first couple of brass steam engines back when I was still in High School. I won't deny that I've been very lucky to score some deals on brass. I was given a couple pieces as presents, I inherited a few from friends who've passed on (not my preferred method at all), and I received one in exchange for doing R&D work in getting it made in the first place. I go to half a dozen train shows a year as a dealer, and I've occasionally found a gem for good money. But I've been collecting NH brass for over 20 years and not all of them have been lucky finds. You're bound to find some deals as long as you keep trying. While I do have a lot of capital tied up in brass models, I don't have a layout any more. And even when I did, there wasn't much on it other than plywood and buildings. I also don't have a smart phone, I don't go on long vacations, I only buy a new PC every 5 or 6 years, I only have basic plus cable, and so on. IOW, I limit my expenses and spend my personal money on certain models that are worth it to me. I'd rather have the NH L-1 2-10-2 that I've had for almost 20 years than a week's camping or unlimited data on my cell.Also, by focusing only on the NH, I don't spend money on hobby things that might otherwise attack my wallet. I see those NS heritage units, and I think they're pretty cool, but I don't buy 'em. I like those Walthers name trains because I'm a sucker for a matched set of equipment, but none of them are in my possession. It's kind of weird, but by concentrating on getting only the best NH models, I actually save a lot of money. Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,
I only have two pieces of brass, but I agree with every word you said about how you "choose" to aford what you want.
I too only buy what fits the layout theme. Brass or not brass, I have a lot tied up in model train locos, 133 of them at last count. But like you said, its what I don't buy that allows me to do that.
My wife and I "skip" lots of stuff other people consider "necessary" so we can each do and have what we want - not what others think we should want.
I have never gotten less than 6 years out of a computer - when I do buy one, I go big, fast and full featured - and they then last a long time before they become obsolete for my limited needs. Just bought one 2 yeasrs ago, the one it replaced was over 10 years old.....
As I said in my original post to this thread, there are a few brass pieces I'm on the lookout for.
Even my wife understands, when I buy model train stuff - $5 or $500 - it is all part of giant puzzle, not just a random collection......
Ive found that brass is the only way to get a faithful reproduction of B&M steam locomotives (except USRA 0-6-0s and 0-8-0s, and the Bachmann 0-6-0 with slope back tender, close enough after modifications). Things like B&M 4-4-2 Trailers and P-2, P-3, P-4 Pacifics (wish I could afford them), are not available outside brass.
There are enough Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000 and Intermountain Diesels that have sufficient detail to make purchase of most brass B&M diesels not worth the investment in my opinion.
These are my brass purchasing opinions.
PRR8259 Well, I believe this is where clear goal setting and planning--having some kind of plan--comes in, along with smart shopping. One can occasionally find a good deal on Rio Grande brass standard gauge steamers. I think if one wants to go in a certain model train direction, and has the time and patience to wait rather than obtain instant or short term gratification, one can actually locate some of those rare steamers affordably. Respectfully submitted-- John Mock
I think if one wants to go in a certain model train direction, and has the time and patience to wait rather than obtain instant or short term gratification, one can actually locate some of those rare steamers affordably.
John, I am mildly interested in D&RGW "history", I have at various times taken a peek at steam era modeling just out of curiosity. It is evident, as you noted, it would require clear goal setting, smart shopping, learning some new skills and selling off most of my current collection to begin moving into D&RGW steam era modeling. Being mildly intersted has never been enough to make me totally loose my mind and abandon my life long interest in modeling second generation diesel era SP & D&RGW. I do try to use goal setting, smart shopping etc. to achieve my present goals too and it's less complicated and expensive to boot.
During the 1960s I started buying Southern Pacific Brass Locomotives for modeling the early 1950s, had about 10 locomotives. I like to run them in heavy Freight and Passenger trains on a club layout. but not a collector. Some engines would run okay and others not, always tinkering with them, got tired of dealing with poor running gear. I switched to modeling first generation diesel during the 1960s and scraped the steam, sold it off anyway. Athearn went from rubber band drive to a gear running, later added flywheels for smother running. Then Proto 2000 came out with their first diesels, with handrails and grab irons. Nowadays only one brass engine left running on the layout, a diesel Baldwin AS616 modified with a can motor and flywheels, about the best brass runner I ever had for a brass thing. With my layout in full operation the latest diesel I’m enjoying is a Broadway Limited, SW1500 w/sound.
riogrande5761--
I was not trying to say that you don't use goal setting, smart shopping, etc., so I hope you didn't take it that way.
As applied to brass models, I've seen on other forums/topics people discussing buying an entire fleet of say as many as 50 of those new Scale Trains tank cars...then I can't help but wonder if some of them might be among those who say "I can't afford brass"...when in reality they are just buying what they like, period. To me, anybody that can afford 50 or so of a new state-of-the-art freight car really wouldn't have any issue affording the occasional brass model.
It's a question of priorities: Do you need a massive fleet of this, that and the other thing? Or would a few lesser items, but of high value or quality, achieve the same level of enjoyment/bang-for-the-buck?
I think we all answer that question in different ways.
The only thing I'm not happy about with the new brass hybrid is it has a bit of a noisy drivetrain...
John,And yet the BLI I-5 and I-4 brass hybrids are gems right out of the box. They are superb models in both looks and operation.
Don't be so quick to dismiss brass hybrids based on one example. All manufacturers make lemons from time to time. I've had an Atlas H16-44 that buzzed very loudly at low speeds, but every other Atlas I've owned has been a great runner. If I had bought that H16-44 that buzzed first and then sworn off Atlas because of it, I'd of missed out on the couple dozen Atlas engines that I really enjoy.
Yes John... I do get it. Really it depends - even goal setting and prioritizing would not have allowed me to model steam era D&RGW in past years; I wouldn't have been able to afford it - trust me - it would have taken several years of saving all of my modeling budget just to get one older issue brass steam engine and then it ain't no good it there is no rolling stock or track or anything else. Any way you roll it, brass does require some scratch. My budget is a little better in the past ten years so probably, if I sold most of my fleet and got educated and a new set of skills, I might be able to manage something now, but I don't have an interest in modeling steam era so it's moot.
Well, born during 1968, I have always been primarily a "diesel guy", but have at times dabbled in steam. To make the story short: there were recent Athearn Genesis and also rtr diesels that I really really wanted to buy, but their absolutely deplorable QA/QC resulted in my saying "you know, I might as well just do steam and buy what I like/can actually get in brass". I know there's engines I can't get or the layout won't accommodate, but, why not?
Funny thing is, the Athearn Genesis steam is actually better on the QA/QC end than the diesels--generally much much better. Perhaps it's the complex paint jobs and masking on the diesels that get them, I don't fully understand (that and the sloppy glue issues).
In any case, I'm 47 and trying to make the switch to a mostly brass steam-oriented railroad. I've been on the diesel "wagon" for about 8 months now, and even my son is down to just one ACL purple/silver E8A. It's the last diesel we have, and will stay to pull an ACL consist...
Paul--thank you, your comments about the fine New Haven hybrids are duly noted.
I have two brass steam locos that require disassembly, testing and repair. A Key ACL P5 Pacific and an Overland SR 2-8-0. They have not been run or disassembled since my acquisition years ago. Where can I view/acquire an exploded schematic of these models before I tackle this task. There's no hobby shop nearby. Thanks for any help.
Since most brass locomotives arrived here already built, it's unlikely that you'll find any drawings or service instructions. Each model would have been handcrafted.
Basic disassembly of most of them is pretty simple. usually two machine screws at the rear plate beneath the cab, and one up through the frame and cylinders and into the smokebox. If there's a lead truck, it will probably need to be removed to gain access to the latter screw. Make sketches as you take it apart and keep track of where each screw is supposed to go - this will aid in re-assembly.
doctorwayne Since most brass locomotives arrived here already built, it's unlikely that you'll find any drawings or service instructions. Each model would have been handcrafted. Basic disassembly of most of them is pretty simple. usually two machine screws at the rear plate beneath the cab, and one up through the frame and cylinders and into the smokebox. If there's a lead truck, it will probably need to be removed to gain access to the latter screw. Make sketches as you take it apart and keep track of where each screw is supposed to go - this will aid in re-assembly. Wayne
Thanks for the timely response Wayne, ...and the good advice.
I can echo the sentiments about being focused in one's model railroading goals. Though I've had many dreams of basement empires, I elected to stick to a narrow and tight focus concerning prototypes. I love Pennsy steam in the early '50s and passenger train operations so I'm sticking with that and not much else. I've found it helpful in many ways to be so tightly focused and create a quality collection vs. A large one without much focus. That's just what works for me personally. Aside the trains I love collecting miniature autos, and Preiser figure sets. Though both would fit in with the train models of course.
Alvie
PRR8259 riogrande5761-- I was not trying to say that you don't use goal setting, smart shopping, etc., so I hope you didn't take it that way. As applied to brass models, I've seen on other forums/topics people discussing buying an entire fleet of say as many as 50 of those new Scale Trains tank cars...then I can't help but wonder if some of them might be among those who say "I can't afford brass"...when in reality they are just buying what they like, period. To me, anybody that can afford 50 or so of a new state-of-the-art freight car really wouldn't have any issue affording the occasional brass model. It's a question of priorities: Do you need a massive fleet of this, that and the other thing? Or would a few lesser items, but of high value or quality, achieve the same level of enjoyment/bang-for-the-buck? I think we all answer that question in different ways. Personally, I'm now very disappointed in a brand new BLI Brass Hybrid GN 4-8-4. It looks amazing but runs poorly in comparison to my other BLI engines that cost half as much. The motor noise is so loud in both DCC and DC that it drowns out the sound system. The model surges as the throttle is advanced in either DC or DCC mode--the speed curve is not what I would call "smooth". There seem to be issues with either the chuff sensor or the calibration of it, as the sound appears to be erratic. The BLI brass hybrid simply does not run as well as their heavier diecast offerings like the 2-8-0. Clean track, clean wheels and copious amounts of electrically conductive lubricant on the track, combined with checking the plug, did not result in an improvement of the performance of the brass hybrid. As I sit here tonight, I may never try another "brass hybrid" after being so disgusted with this one. It's making the full out all-brass models appear to be a generally better value! John
Personally, I'm now very disappointed in a brand new BLI Brass Hybrid GN 4-8-4. It looks amazing but runs poorly in comparison to my other BLI engines that cost half as much. The motor noise is so loud in both DCC and DC that it drowns out the sound system. The model surges as the throttle is advanced in either DC or DCC mode--the speed curve is not what I would call "smooth". There seem to be issues with either the chuff sensor or the calibration of it, as the sound appears to be erratic. The BLI brass hybrid simply does not run as well as their heavier diecast offerings like the 2-8-0. Clean track, clean wheels and copious amounts of electrically conductive lubricant on the track, combined with checking the plug, did not result in an improvement of the performance of the brass hybrid.
As I sit here tonight, I may never try another "brass hybrid" after being so disgusted with this one. It's making the full out all-brass models appear to be a generally better value!
I bought a couple of the new Hybride S2 BLI Great Northern engines and have had no problems with mine.
After a initial breakin period I cleaned all of the lubricants from the drivers and then applied a small amount of Nano Oil to the axles and also to the rod assemblies.
As far as the motor itself, it is almost silent with the sound turned off, I can barely hear the motor. Perhaps this is your problem. In regard to the sound I have no complaints at all, in fact I am very impressed with the quality of the sound in my two engines. I really think that you should be getting in touch with BLI.
These locomotives in my opinion have as good running characteristics as my other steam BLI locomotives.
Perhaps there is something wrong with your locomotive. Check with BLI. I have no complaints at all with my S2 hybrids. If BLI produces any more that would suite my layout roster I would buy them immediately.
I cleaned the tender wheels to remove any grime whatsoever and ran the GN S-2 4-8-4 some more last night. The motor and drivetrain are indeed "noisy". As speed is increased, the noise becomes more noticeable. The engine may be "running in". However, at passenger train speeds of say 70 or 80 smph, whether in DC or DCC, the gear noise is sufficient to drown out the sound.
I do not have a decibel meter, but this S-2's drivetrain seems to be very nearly twice as loud with extraneous noise as the two new BLI H10s 2-8-0's on hand, which are indeed quiet.
My son wants it to stay, so we'll see if it runs better after it gets more time on it.
Hopefully, BLI will send one of the new GN S-2 hybrides to Model Railroader for their review and we can tell if if excess noise is typical or limited to a few of these models.
You comments that while hauling a few cars the noise drowns out the sound sure is not representitive of my locomotives, good sound, minimum electric motor noise.
Have you checked your gears, I remember a few years ago Bachmann was having problems, they used way too much gear lube on a few of their engines, this resulted in excess noise as well.
As far as the sound quality, my sound is every bit as good as the promo video from BLI on the S2 engine.
https://www.facebook.com/BroadwayLimited/videos
FYI, I was very recently in contact with BLI and after talking to the rep, your sound problem is not typical of that model. Give BLI a call or fill out one of their service requests. They will help you sort out the sound problem you are experiencing.
Hello don7 and others--
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll only send something back if there's real problems, as this looks like an easily damaged model, cosmetically speaking. Sometimes it's better to try to run them in.
We'll see what happens after more running time...it's still a noisy drivetrain for me, but is running more smoothly than it was before.
Well, I told myself that I could never afford brass and I didn't want to deal with getting them to run properly. Then up comes an eBay listing for a beautifully painted Dominion Atlantic 4-6-0, and it is named 'Dave'. According to the seller it runs very well.
I put in a bid in the vain hope that it might go cheap, but alas the highest bid is now twice what I offered.
Oh well, that's life. I'm disappointed but not heartbroken.
PRR8259 Hello don7 and others-- Thanks for the suggestion. I'll only send something back if there's real problems, as this looks like an easily damaged model, cosmetically speaking. Sometimes it's better to try to run them in. We'll see what happens after more running time...it's still a noisy drivetrain for me, but is running more smoothly than it was before. John
John,
FWIW, I would contact BLI via e-mail and describe to them your problem(s) and what you've tried so far. They may have some additional suggestions for you to try, or may tell you to box it up and send it into them for repair. I prefer the e-mail approach because it then documents the issues for them in writting (paper trail) vs. describing it over the phone, which can easily be forgotten.
I've sent 2 or 3 BLI steamers back to BLI for repair (because they arrived with either a decoder or machanical problem) and they have repaired each of them to my satisfaction. You may have to wait a few weeks before it returns but it's worth a better operating steamer. Sending it back also helps BLI know what QA issues need to be tightened up for future runs.
On the bright side, the difference between even the brass hybrids and the regular diecast/plastic models is truly huge...night and day.
My 9 year old son just loves the brass hybrid with its outstanding glacier green paint scheme. The soldering, while a couple out of the way imperfections are there, is much cleaner than even what Ajin Precision was doing on steam power for Overland Models and others a decade or so ago, and this is delivered at a great price.
So having one brass hybrid on hand, from a detail perspective, does actually make me desire to have all my steam power looking that good.
Best Regards--
I forgot to mention that all of the repairs were FREE of charge.
Hello tstage--
Yes, thank you, I have sent engines back to BLI before...removed bottom cover plate (only 5 screws). Lubrication appears to be adequate though only some kind of clear (colorless) oil. Metal gears look to be ok. Added Labelle 106 grease with teflon. I think these just are very noisy gears - metal on metal. They are relatively quiet at low speed (for instance at the speeds used in Youtube video reviews) but at higher speeds there appears to be considerable noise.
Absolutely gorgeous model in appearance. I think I'd still buy it and just live with the noise. Wish they didn't bother with the sound though. My Kato track tends to amplify any drivetrain noises, but...
If I had the cash I'd probably buy another one anyway.
March, 2017 Update:
After much running, and a second application by myself of lubricant to the gearbox, the BLI GN S-2 4-8-4 hybrid runs much better than I previously reported. It is still not quiet, at least not compared to the recent (full brass) models from Boo Rim, and the gear noise can still drown out the sound, but it is much improved from what it was. There was no evidence of any unusual gear wear patterns. Also, my son wanted it and asked me to keep it and sell plastic steamers instead, so how could I not let him have it? I just learned today that the prototype was capable of above 100 mph running, and the BLI model certainly does not disappoint in the speed end--especially compared to the other brass models out there, which generally, for new stuff, are geared to run s-l-o-w-ly. For those who want to run alot, the BLI engines can be a good value for the money.
I have spent the last year diligently researching what is out there on the market in ho brass or hybrid steam, frequently checking brasstrains website, and the evil auction sites. I have a pretty good idea, now, of exactly what I want to buy and what they are allegedly worth, but there are surprises like the Boo Rim steamer just listed on Ebay for $650 less than what both myself and another buyer just paid to buy the same engine from brasstrains...can't let that one get away.
So I guess I have to be more selective in buying, and troll Ebay more as there can be good value on there.
In the last year I have thinned my HO plastic down to just 10 freight cars and a Proto ATSF GP-7 "beater engine". Sheldon can laugh all he wants, but selling little used plastic Rapido (rare) passenger cars (no longer needed by my son) and all kinds of other stuff netted me over $1600 and paid for a really nice Boo Rim steamer. I'd sell the stuff again, too. I'm just happier running my admittedly small but growing roster of (hybrid and brass) steam. I have a mint, little used pro trumpet that will also convert nicely to brass steam, as I no longer play...
Now, are there any online forums or websites just for HO brass train aficionados? I found one but it appears to be very little patronized, if at all. Are there any others? Where online do the real collectors hang out? Or do they just not bother online, and prefer to remain anonymous?
Open to learning more,
PRR8259Open to learning more,
If you cant find it, have you considered building it yourself? I've found that the particular things I am looking for are probably not going to ever be made in plastic or brass, so I will have to make them myself.
John, buying and selling "used", or previously owned NIB stuff is a hobby all of its own that does not interest me. I know what I like and want, so I don't have anything I "don't need anymore" or are "bored with".
Maybe you did OK, good for you, but simply keeping your money in your pocket for what you "really" want seems so much easier to me.
I don't own any Rapido passenger cars, likely never will, not on my want list. I don't need to own a few to know that, rare or not.....
Don't need any Boo Rim steamers either.......
But, I don't "collect" model trains, I'm building a model railroad..........
And, respectfully, I likely have a different view of children and model trains than you do. My 5 year old grandson has his own seperate Bachmann Thomas and Chuggington, my son, now 32, had his own LIONEL layout in his room starting at age 5, seperate from my trains. He had bunk beds, slept on the top, trains on the bottom.
Never worried about the value of a train after I bought it, never lost money on any, because I never really sold off any........never changed scale, era, roadname, so nothing has ever become "obsolete". One goal, one focus.......
I still have structures and rolling stock on my layout that my father bought when I was a child.....and that I bought as a teen......and I will leave it all to my son.......
PRR8259 riogrande5761-- I was not trying to say that you don't use goal setting, smart shopping, etc., so I hope you didn't take it that way. As applied to brass models, I've seen on other forums/topics people discussing buying an entire fleet of say as many as 50 of those new Scale Trains tank cars...then I can't help but wonder if some of them might be among those who say "I can't afford brass"...when in reality they are just buying what they like, period. To me, anybody that can afford 50 or so of a new state-of-the-art freight car really wouldn't have any issue affording the occasional brass model. It's a question of priorities: Do you need a massive fleet of this, that and the other thing? Or would a few lesser items, but of high value or quality, achieve the same level of enjoyment/bang-for-the-buck? I think we all answer that question in different ways. The only thing I'm not happy about with the new brass hybrid is it has a bit of a noisy drivetrain... John
So 10 months ago you posed a question. Well in my case running my 40 car trains is what makes me happy. So one loco and 10 freight cars, no matter how nice, is simply not going to do it for me.
Those 40 car freight trains need power, lots of it. Most steam trains on my layout are pulled by double headers, most diesel trains by 3-4 unit lashups.
With staging for 30 trains, average of three locos per train, 130 powered units is not really all that many locos. And 30 trains times 40 cars........well actually some are passenger trains, so about 800 freight cars and almost 200 passenger cars........
Piggyback flat cars alone, I have enough for an east bound train, a west bound train, and a train worth in the yard......
Truthfully, I'm pretty much done buying locos and rolling stock, there are only a few items left on my rolling stock/loco wish list.
I am with Sheldon except I got rid of a lot of stuff because the new stuff was better than the old and got rid of anything that did not run well out of the box (except for a few brass). Since I ussually bought at a good price, I at least broke even on most stuff (except for some brass that I sold).
BMMECNYC--
With a little help from my dad, I built a Bowser ex-PRR L-1s 2-8-2 which Bowser's in-house painter then painted and lettered Santa Fe for me (ATSF bought 3 during WWII). I am nowhere near the capabilities of the Boo Rim craftsman and would never be happy with something I built that could never approach the quality of what is being built today. You can pick up these exceptionally well detailed models and stuff does not fall off like it did 30 years ago with Korean brass then.
Some of today's brass is being designed specifically so that operation on 24" radii is acceptable. They are smaller more compact engines like the Rock Island 2-8-2. So far it is the only recent run that the instructions say is good for 24", but I am sure the plethora of SP smaller steam will also do 24", which is below my radii.
Unfortunetly, they are not making many Boston and Maine or Maine Central prototypes in todays brass. And if they did, the price point would be extremely high (likely to relatively low volume seller anyway, so limited run with high price). No I am not trying to turn this into "this hobby is so expensive".
Ive decided to build what I cant buy. I think I can reverse engineer the plans in the MR articles (OCT 1997-May 1998), to create something close enough.
Oh by all means if you think you can build it then go ahead and post periodic updates so that others can see and be inspired and maybe try themselves. There is room for all of us.
Perhaps my many posts here are somewhat of a reaction to the perception that brass collectors are somehow not "real" model railroaders, not in your posts, but in others. There are folks like Howard Zane who just love brass and do "collect" it, yet at the same time he has an amazing layout where a hundred or more engines are required just to operate it. Howard's attitude is that everything is for sale if somebody only wants to pony up and pay the right price.
So it is not a crime, and I am not a model railroading heretic for desiring to buy the occasional model with the idea from the beginning being that I will hold it a couple years, play with it a little bit, and make a profit.That just makes me different from some.
PRR8259 Oh by all means if you think you can build it then go ahead and post periodic updates so that others can see and be inspired and maybe try themselves. There is room for all of us. Perhaps my many posts here are somewhat of a reaction to the perception that brass collectors are somehow not "real" model railroaders, not in your posts, but in others. There are folks like Howard Zane who just love brass and do "collect" it, yet at the same time he has an amazing layout where a hundred or more engines are required just to operate it. Howard's attitude is that everything is for sale if somebody only wants to pony up and pay the right price. So it is not a crime, and I am not a model railroading heretic for desiring to buy the occasional model with the idea from the beginning being that I will hold it a couple years, play with it a little bit, and make a profit.That just makes me different from some.
John, you don't have to keep defending your version of this hobby.
But, you are also not likely to sell many people on it either...........
There are great craftsman in this hobby who are also brass collectors.......and then there are those who are only brass collectors........and there are those who are at every possible place in between those two positions.
Personally, I'm not into serial ownership. To take it out of this hobby for a minute, serial ownership is the guy who buys a boat, uses it 3 seasons, looks at it in the yard for two more, sells it and buys a motorcycle, rides it for two seasons, puts it on the front yard and sells it. Uses the cash as a down payment on an RV, buys a 30-6, takes the RV on hunting trips.......for three seasons, sells the RV, lets the 30-6 get rusty in the back of the closet.......and so on.
Admittedly it is a life style choice I simply don't understand, but in the big picture, I don't care what others do with their money, but don't look for my praise or approval for each new purchase and adventure.......
That loco that you will sell off, I will keep and leave to my son, along with model railroad items his grandfather left me. My son was close to his grandfather before he passed away, I think my son will appreciate those things. He is not really a model railroader now, but he does have an interest in trains, hopefully he will be happy to have mine and my fathers stuff and pass it on to his son. If not, that's OK, it's only "stuff" and I have had lots of fun with it.
You have told us you are not really a model builder, that's fine. Others are, and that is their main focus in the hobby, not just what they can buy......
Another example - cars, I like cars, especially old ones, and fast ones. I have restored and built a few in my time. Built a '63 Nova convertible that would go 135 mph and do 14 sec in the 1/4 mile......when I was only 20. I have the skills to rebuild engines, do body work, etc. I will admit it is a hobby I have largely moved on from actual participation.
But, you introduce me to two guys, one has bought himself a brand new Corvette, the other has restored a 1958 Corvette with mostly his own hands......I will have more in common with the guy who restored the '58........even though I drive a new car that is pretty fast.
My fast new car, a 2015 FORD FLEX LIMITED with Eccoboost, 360 HP, twin turbos, 14 sec 1/4 mile, etc - but so what? Anybody with $50,000 can have one. I drive it because its design and comfort fits our personal needs, and because it is fast and fun and I have the money. I understand that most other people don't really care about my expensive high performance station wagon. I don't need or expect them to care.....if they do ask, I will explain my choice and why I like it so much......I don't need them to like it.
And when it comes to this hobby and other people, I am much more interested in the model building others are doing than in what they are buying........
Certainly I would have more respect for the vette restored by owners own hand.
I also appreciate fine models regardless of whose hands built them, even if built by little green aliens, and quite honestly the only scratchbuilt steam power I have ever seen in my entire life...well I can't name very many at all. John Glaab showed some early Japanese brass handbuilts, and they were neat, but usually not engines I had a particular interest in at the time.
Brasstrains has a neat NdeM engine, one of a kind, and the price on it is currently $1795. I think it is the late 4-8-4. It is very well done indeed.
Handbuilt pilot models? I have handled a few.
But truly scratchbuilt steam, has been rare. Kinda hard to appreciate what I can't see. Maybe some folks will post some photos?
Brass models are available not only in model raliroading, but also in ships, planes, automotive, heavy equipment...and have I missed any? Brass trains have never been marketed as mainstream except during the 60's and well into the mid 80's when PFM always had a full page ad on the rear cover of MR along with other importers in other magazines.......but always as an upgrade for afficiandos who appreciated them and who could afford brass. There is really no need to disuss the pros and cons of brass trains. Admittedly they are not for everyone and they were never meant to be.....sort of like anything of extrodinary quality be it housing, yachts, cars, jewelry, etc.
HZ
Howard Zane Brass models are available not only in model raliroading, but also in ships, planes, automotive, heavy equipment...and have I missed any? Brass trains have never been marketed as mainstream except during the 60's and well into the mid 80's when PFM always had a full page ad on the rear cover of MR along with other importers in other magazines.......but always as an upgrade for afficiandos who appreciated them and who could afford brass. There is really no need to disuss the pros and cons of brass trains. Admittedly they are not for everyone and they were never meant to be.....sort of like anything of extrodinary quality be it housing, yachts, cars, jewelry, etc. HZ
Howard, I agree completely. There is however what people can afford, should afford, and what they choose to afford. Clearly, if you saw any of the deleted posts, you know our host does not want us to go down that road.
John spends a lot of time on here "selling" the virtues of brass. I just play devils advocate, because as you say, it's not for everyone.
Being concerned with the future resale value of a model train would spoil that purchase and the hobby for me. The few brass locos I own have been modified, kit bashed, and freelance painted beyond any recognition of their original forms. Most of them now have Bachmann tenders..........
They would be of no value to me otherwise.
Yet in every conversation about some plastic/die cast loco, John reminds us how "cheap" they are and how brass would be a better "investment". At the risk of being censored again, my "investment" money is in real estate......
I live in a quality house built over 100 years ago, I drive nice cars, I own a superior quality garden tractor that still works perfectly after 20 years of service. I don't need any lectures on quality.
But I also understand the theory of deminishing returns as it applies to a lot of products in our culture........
Sometimes, the enemy of good is "better"........
One "inconvenient truth" is that I was pretty much forced into brass by what I perceived as the quality failings of some HO plastic. Without going down the road of singling out and trashing various manufacturers, I was simply not happy with what is readily available in rtr plastic form. Tried lots and lots of it and was unhappy. The reason I have traded so much is not that I like the hunt, as some assume, but that I was unhappy with the quality of plastic. I especially don't care for wavy fall off the body handrails. (Yes I fixed some by custom bending piano wire to replace them, but shouldn't have to do that all the time).
So quality has a price, and it may not be cheap, but I can actually be happy with the brass.
I never said brass was for everyone.
This thread was for thoughts about brass locomotives, right? So anyone who does not care or is otherwise not interested in brass...well nobody is holding a weapon to force them to read or contribute here.
I do wish there was a place for brass fans to hangout, and I would love to see more scratchbuilt or homebuilt brass models, from those who care to share them.
The NdeM handbuilt 4-8-4 over on brasstrains website is a beautiful model and worthy of appreciation.
Brass
Pros:
1. Heavier so will pull a lot of cars
2. Holds it's resale value well
3. Most accurate and usually most detailed for particular roads (Especially steam)
Cons:
1. Cost arm and leg for plastic that gets 95% of the same detail of plastic
2. More finicky with track. Operating radius typically much larger.
3. More delicate4. Typically requires more work to get to run on DCC w/sound
There are of course outliers to the above rules. (There always are.) But this is the general case.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Holds its resale value, not so, just ask anyone who invested in Crown, price dropped in half at one point, made a bit of a comeback since the low though.
Brass...........values? As a brass vendor for over 30 years, I rarely suggested to a client to buy brass as an investment.........only purchase because you want to own it. However, prior to 1997 (peak of brass activity) brass did appreciate including models of questionable quality. There were times I could purchase a large collection through lines of bank credit and pay off the entire amount just from the first two-three months of sales. Collectible and most desireable brass models are of steam prototypes. Each year we grow further away from interests in steam railroad modeling except for a few old dinosaurs such as myself who grew up with steam railroading.
As interests in historical modeling increase and prices of die-cast and plastic counterparts also increase, I predict brass modeling to make sort of a comeback..........but don't go out and purchase a ton of brass hoping it will rise considerably in value.
I was only talking a few pieces...that I plan to enjoy, play with, and maybe sell a few higher end pieces when my boys go to college if the cash is needed then.
I think that one issue with the PFM Crown models is just that as models, regardless of the motor in them, some of them are not nearly as nice as later models that have been done of the same engine. So now, besides the fact that the steam crowd who would or did buy them has diminished, the later models seem to be in more demand.
I am a bit surprised at how the prices of some of the "better" PFM models like L-131 articulateds continue to drop recently, yet there are others that still are holding a better percentage of their "maximum" price. Nobody is giving away PFM Crown Rio Grande 2-10-2's, but the M-75 4-8-2 seems to be a different story, and a noticeably better version of it was done. At one time their prices were more nearly "equal" depending on condition, etc. Now there is quite a difference there between the 2 Rio Grande steamers.
So I think it depends on the model in question and how many times it has been modeled, by what builders and importers--and who has a new version coming.
Brass...........values? As a brass vendor for over 30 years, I rarely suggested to a client to buy brass as an investment.........
Unless, of course, your desire is to end up with a small fortune after expending a big fortune.
I have a Westside GS-8 (ex Cotton Belt L1). Paid $135 for it in 1973. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation Calculator, it would have to sell for $738 just to keep up with inflation. Ain't going to happen. Street price varies between $375 and $450 depending on condition and whether or not painted. Westside only did a single run. It's not a common model. Still, it sells for around 60% or so of inflation adjusted retail. Definitely, not investment grade.
Now what was investment grade (say in 1999, or even better, 1997 when it was even cheaper) was a share of Apple stock. A single share sold for the split adusted amount of $1.38. Fast forward to today and that single share (after splits) is now 28 shares each with a market value as of today's close of $139.20 or a total market value of $5359.20, enough to buy 3 NdeM QR-1 models (if 3 were available) from BrassTrains.Com and still have change left over.
Andre
You'd be much better off buying an S&P 500 index fund like Vanguard's VFINX, or the ETF (Exchange Traded Fund) QQQ that also tracks the S&P 500. If you want to track the Dow, look into the SPDR Dow Jones Industrial Average ETF (DIA). Your money, your choice.
Thank you Andre. I am sure your example is more typical. There have been a few exceptions where for example a number of much newer W&R steamers actually do bring 3 or 4 times the original purchase price, but yes they are outliers.
What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest?
It is a 7 year old, new in box rare model, and you don't know when you might see one pop up again.
PRR8259 Thank you Andre. I am sure your example is more typical. There have been a few exceptions where for example a number of much newer W&R steamers actually do bring 3 or 4 times the original purchase price, but yes they are outliers. What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest? It is a 7 year old, new in box rare model, and you don't know when you might see one pop up again.
Well, for me, it would not matter if the model was brass or plastic or whatever. If it was a model I really wanted, which in my case means it plays an important role in the layout scheme, and if I had the CASH, I would buy it.
I would not buy a model train, or any other luxury of that type on any kind of borrowed money..........
In fact, a great many of my 130 plus loco fleet has been bought at prices well below market value. My dollar cost averaage for 130 powered units over the last 20 years is about $100 each. They include mostly higher end plastic/die cast models, Proto, Intermountain, Genesis, Spectrum, BLI.
And yes, most all my locos are from the last 20-25 years. For many years when I was younger I only had a few locos, a set of Athearn F7's that I remotored and detailed, and a few other pieces. When I could really afford model trains, I bought model trains.
But once I buy it, it is mine for life............in 99.9% of the cases.
In 47 years, I have sold off three locomotives, or locomotive sets.
One because Walthers made the model not to my correct era in the undecorated version - a set of Proto F7's.
One because I later decided to stay with only two brands of F units for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, a set of BLI/PCM undecorated F3's originally purchased on closeout from FDT. They would have also required extensive rewiring.
One because I simply changed my mine about a specific rework/detailing project.
At times when I did not have extra money, I simply did not buy trains.....what a concept.
It can be difficult to budget when I can spend $150 in a weekend on just baseball lessons, or zero if the coaches are busy.
The model would fit my future plans well, or I wouldn't even be bidding (is beyond planned budget for this year, but my cash flow has been improved from what was projected). It actually is a new model specifically designed for 24" radius operation, according to the Importer's literature, which I found to be quite interesting. This would be because it is a relatively compact heavy mike. It also happens to be the most detailed steamer I've personally ever owned, as I have a sister in a coal version, so I'd be able to doublehead in plain DC, or have one front and rear of a train, which, once in awhile, is fun to do.
Also, you mentioned dollar cost averaging. At the much lower price point it would reduce the average price paid per steamer, which would be viewed by me as a positive. If someday I don't need it, great I can profit, but the engines I get are being run...maybe they get 8 or 10 hours of run time a month, per engine.
My days of big articulateds and heavy 50 car freights are behind me, though I do want a Rio Grande L-76 2-6-6-2 sometime when a good one is available...just because I always did and miss the Custom Brass one I once owned.
Last note on Brass as an investment. Today with 3-d printing, will come a time in the near future when you can have any model you want in lots of materials. To show you how fast things are moving in teck land, last year it was projected to have driverless cars approved in 5 to 7 years, now it may happen end of this year. A lot of the things we thought were rare will just be another trinket tomarrow. Heck, dimonds are made that are so good you have to laser inscibe real ones to tell the difference and the list of these things is begining to be endless. And Apple watch has 2.7 times the computing power of a Cray-2 super computer, think about that in terms of everything.
PRR8259 What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest?
That would depend on the price, John. Say I really...REALLY wanted a $250K Lamborghini. At 57% that would be $142,500 - plus tax and title. There's NO WAY I'm going to pay that much for a car when my 2008 Honda Civic* (w/188K on it) will still get me from Point A to Point B - just maybe not quite as fast.
*[More than likely I will end up driving my Civic into the ground rather than selling it. In the meantime I can save $$$ for a downpayment on a new or newer car when that time comes.]
In the brass locomotive realm: I would love to have a new DP NYC H-10a 2-8-2 Mike in my roster. Even at 57% ($1,140) I would still have to pass it up. And I'd be just as content without it as with it.
Bottom line: If it ain't in the budget; it ain't gonna happen - no matter what kinda deal I might get.
A few random thoughts:
Baseball lessons? And I thought tap, jazz and ballet was expensive for the daughters and grand daughter.....Either luck and and tallent will take them to the majors, or it won't, lessons won't help.
Our children actually paid their own way through college, and not to go off topic, but I think college should be part of the public education system for anyone who performs well.
Cars - we buy new ones, but tend to keep them a good while. Seldom using financing. Bought a truck in 2000, finally replaced it last year. The old one had 240,000 miles, still ran good.
John, here is the thing I still find most interesting, not just about you, but about any number of people who post on these forums with product complaints.
I know that there are sometimes quality control issues with the mass produced products in this hobby. Again, I started working in the hobby shop and fixing trains in 1969.......I started in the hobby at age 10 with a Varney F3, PennLine GG1 and a Mantua Pacfic and Mikado.
But how is it that thousands of modelers have bought Bachmann Spectrum, BLI, Proto, Atlas, etc, and have generally successful experiances, but you have not had one happy such experiance?
I just don't get that.
Another topic - you mentioned double heading those two brass locos. I have a tripple header on my layout right now. A Proto 2-8-8-2, Spectrum 2-10-2, and a Spectrum 2-8-0, running just fine together on DC, pulling about 60 piggyback cars.
Still happy with all my relatively inexpensive plastic and white metal brainless model trains.
OK, many thoughts to respond to.
First I have a son who is only a B student, has learning disability and reads 2 grade levels below where he should be or more. He may not be college material. But he has baseball talent, and it is becoming clear that the more he works, the better he gets--in a hurry with pro coaching. Former professional baseball players make a huge difference in teaching that the average volunteer cannot match. My son now has excellent skills and technique, and in 9th grade just beat out a bunch of people who have been "above" him for years...He has worked 6 days a week on baseball with me and by himself for months...and I'll stop there.
Other son autistic but smart. Younger and shows undeveloped baseball talent.
The "rule of 10000 hours" states that with good practice, proper technique, and quality coaching, people become very proficient at their "craft" whether that be model making, woodworking, music performance, basketweaving, or baseball. It is essential to have proper mentoring, which costs.
Back to trains:
I had ok experiences with some plastic, but the engineer in me simply appreciates the fine artistry, detail and craftsmanship found in the better brass models.
Some people don't feel comfortable spending a grand on one locomotive or even if they did would be very afraid to just play with it. I was like that once, and was that way for many years too. Also, one can learn how to handle them so as not to even chip the paint when playing with them.
Now, I'm at a point where if I want to have a model of xyz, I want the best darn model I can possibly find, and price, so what, as long as I was able to make it work with the family budget...
Hope he makes it. On another note coaching can only do so much but if he has the drive, he can make it. People who make it ussually have one thing that helps them out and that is they keep at it till they make it, period. If he has that drive it dose not mater if he only has average skills at this point, he will proubly make it and from what you say, he has the drive!
My take on brass as an investment. It has passed its peak, for a variety of reasons - but it all comes out the same net result: demand is down, and will continue to drop. Which is exciting to me as one who could never afford brass at a younger age, and with only a few alternatives in HOn3. I now own 3 brass locos, and the most expensive was a PFM DSP&P Mason recently acquired for $200.
Like Post-War Lionel, the supply is diminishing, not increasing. But demand is dropping even faster. Current brass collectors and operators are dying off; and brass has been out of reach to the younger members of the hobby for so long that they don't even think about brass as an alternative to Blackstone (or similar products in standard gauge).
Making brass run as well as, and be as good as a Blackstone is not trivial, and usually costs $100-$200 in parts, materials, and tools. In that way, Blackstone has created a ceiling price on run-of-the-mill brass locomotives. Only new production that can exceed Blackstone in detail and running qualities can command a higher price (new PSC Shays).
just my thoughts
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
There does seem to be a glut of older, vintage, and middle of the road brass on the market. Some of those engines require TLC to run well, and others are Korean and 30 to 40 years old such that stuff may fall off while they run.
That is not the stuff I'm after. PSC has gone from being a middling quality importer to importing some really really fine steam power--not just Shays--but many of them. Many of their steamers seem to run pretty well out of the box, in very recent years.
Not being a narrow gauge aficionado, I'm after standard gauge PSC/Boo Rim steam that captures the "classic 1930's look" my eye finds appealing. SP 2-10-2's, 4-10-2's are appealing to me, as are UP 4-12-2's, and selected smaller steamers from other southwestern roads.
PRR8259 OK, many thoughts to respond to. First I have a son who is only a B student, has learning disability and reads 2 grade levels below where he should be or more. He may not be college material. But he has baseball talent, and it is becoming clear that the more he works, the better he gets--in a hurry with pro coaching. Former professional baseball players make a huge difference in teaching that the average volunteer cannot match. My son now has excellent skills and technique, and in 9th grade just beat out a bunch of people who have been "above" him for years...He has worked 6 days a week on baseball with me and by himself for months...and I'll stop there. Other son autistic but smart. Younger and shows undeveloped baseball talent. The "rule of 10000 hours" states that with good practice, proper technique, and quality coaching, people become very proficient at their "craft" whether that be model making, woodworking, music performance, basketweaving, or baseball. It is essential to have proper mentoring, which costs. Back to trains: I had ok experiences with some plastic, but the engineer in me simply appreciates the fine artistry, detail and craftsmanship found in the better brass models. Some people don't feel comfortable spending a grand on one locomotive or even if they did would be very afraid to just play with it. I was like that once, and was that way for many years too. Also, one can learn how to handle them so as not to even chip the paint when playing with them. Now, I'm at a point where if I want to have a model of xyz, I want the best darn model I can possibly find, and price, so what, as long as I was able to make it work with the family budget...
Well John, I'm not affraid to play with any of them, $100 or $1,000. I have a few I paid $400-$500 for (or in the case of diesels, $500 for the 4 unit set I use as one locomotive).
And I'm not affraid to take them apart, paint them ATLANTIC CENTRAL, modifiy them to my needs, etc.
BUT, I don't need to spend $1000 per steam loco to meet my goals......so I don't.
I'm an engineering type too, I design houses, heating systems, electrical systems, hifi speakers, invented tractor parts, designed engine mods for hot rods (and then built the engine), restored cars from the ground up.
But in my case, I have the interest and the skills to take that $100 or $200 loco, and fix its weak points, so it runs like $1000......
Again, different goals and needs.
PRR8259I do wish there was a place for brass fans to hangout,
I see there is going to be a Brass Expo in Wheeling, Illinois, November of this year. You can probably find a few like-minded people to hang out with there.
Sheldon,
I rebuilt Rivarossi articulateds years ago, with good success (we had all the parts on hand) and I was trained by a brass collector on how to properly disassemble an Overland Models diesel for tuning and minor adjustments to make them run better. Steam...I dont requarter drivers but leave that to pros and I was not an expert at "find the short".
Rivarossi drivers are notorious for rotating on the axle centers and becoming unquartered. It was easier and cheaper to replace axles back in the day...
But brass diesels just arent my particular need.
PRR8259 Sheldon, I rebuilt Rivarossi articulateds years ago, with good success (we had all the parts on hand) and I was trained by a brass collector on how to properly disassemble an Overland Models diesel for tuning and minor adjustments to make them run better. Steam...I dont requarter drivers but leave that to pros and I was not an expert at "find the short".
John, I understand, and I don't question your skills or knowledge, I know you have a strong background in the hobby like me.
My point is simply that I am willing, and actually take pleasure, in taking, for example, that "nearly perfect" Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountain and doing just a few small tweaks to make it an exceptional running loco.
And it happens to be a protoype for one of my roads of choice, the C&O, and is a logical choice for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
So why would I go searching for brass ones at $300 or $400 each, or more, which will still likely need work and painting, when I can have as many as I want for $100 to $150 each?
And in my opinion, the Spectrum J-2, or its USRA versions, is every bit as well detailed as most of the brass ones out there.
And, yes, the drive in a brass loco is very likely to last longer. But truth is, with 130 locos, I am unlikely to clock enough hours on any one loco to ever be concerned about that.
One more point, I have large curves and big turnouts, but I still like the idea of the split frame electrical design of modern mass produced steam locos over the electrically live frame of most brass - less chance for short circuits.....
The Spectrum model is heavy, smooth, pulls well, well detailed, easy to work on, came in a number of road specific versions and is/was afordable.....
I found them to need only the smallest adjustments to be top performers, extra tender weight and a small modification to the drawbar.
I have nine Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's, several in C&O and fleet for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, for less than $1000 total.
I like the Bachmann EM -1 as the best steamer they have done to date, though can appreciate USRA "classic" appearance of other engines.
A special thank you to Howard and any others who held off bidding against me on a slightly unusual Precision Scale Boo Rim Rock Island 2-8-2. I actually won it for $655 less than the last one that myself and also someone else just bought. It is unusual in being "wrong box". It has an oil tender and box says coal tender, but loco itself is correct version for that particular box, with flashing red mars light.
Thanks to those who have helped me.
I consider it a bargain on something I wanted anyway...is ideal impressively compact engine for modest curves and I wanted oil version anyway.
Maybe Bachmann will improve and release C&O 1309???
PRR8259 Maybe Bachmann will improve and release C&O 1309???
I don't know what there would be to "improve", but they would have to make some detail changes to make an accurate 1309. The previous models are the H5 USRA design and the earlier H4 (with a few very small errors).
You have to give Bachmann credit for their efforts to offer variety, get reasonably close to prototype details, and offer affordable, good running models.
Have there been a few been duds or semi duds? Sure. Some brass are duds........
Is every Bachmann loco spot on for every roadname offered? No.
BUT, at least they can build a USRA Mikado and Pacific and change basic obvious details like trailing trucks, headlights, bells, tenders to get close. Are you listening BLI?
If you look at the Spectrum USRA/H4 2-6-6-2 (4 versions), USRA 4-8-2 Heavy (3 versions + options) and the USRA 2-10-2 Light (7 versions), they went to great lengths to offer a wide selection of proto correct versions, in roadnames seldom modeled at all in mass produced locos.
Similar facts are true of the Russian 2-10-0, 4-6-0, shays, K4's, etc.
But such efforts are ignored by many because it does not happen to be what they want..........
Even the "generic" but well detailed 2-8-0 had a stephenson valve gear version and number of different tenders when it was a Spectrum model.
And for those of us who kit bash or freelance, Bachmann has been a gold mine in the last 20 years.
Seperate tenders that interchange on many of their models, common parts that interchange from model to model, A parts department with well explained pictures and parts list online, and more.
Here is a perfect example, my ATLANTIC CENTRAL 2-6-6-2's (three of them) include Bachmann V16 tenders (offered seperately and on the 4-8-2H) and Delta trailing trucks also offered with later production 4-8-2H locos. Both the tender and the trailing truck transplanted to the 2-6-6-2 without needing any modifications.
Just one of many such projects.
I have used Bachmann tenders behind countless other locos to, in my case, provide a family look to the ATLANTIC CENTRAL fleet, including some brass and a number of BLI locos.
Enough for now,
Beautiful model, Sheldon!
JOHN C TARANTO Beautiful model, Sheldon!
Thank you for the kind words John.
PS - And, the beauty of that locomotive is that I created it for the some total investment of about $175.00 - a result of careful shopping and luck.
...stupid B-units are always brass, grumble, grumble....
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
fieryturbo ...stupid B-units are always brass, grumble, grumble....
Except for Bachmann, BLI, Athearn, Bowser, Intermountain...... so not always.
BMMECNYC fieryturbo ...stupid B-units are always brass, grumble, grumble.... Except for Bachmann, BLI, Athearn, Bowser, Intermountain...... so not always.
Also Rapido, Fox Valley, Walthers (Mainline and Proto).. Okay thats all the non-brass B units I could find in the 2017 Walthers Catalog.
Modeling steam even of such a "common" road like the Santa Fe is difficult if your space is restricted. Compounding the problem is the fact that the Santa Fe did not use the USRA standards; many of the offerings labeled "Santa Fe" are foobies. In "plastic", BLI has produced the 3751 class 4-8-4s and the 3800 class 2-10-2s and 2-10-4s. These are all rather large engines, and (even in "plastic") restricted to radii of 22" or more. The Bachmann Spectrum "Russian Decapod" 2-10-0, which is a beautiful little engine and runs on 18" radii, is a pretty good representation of three locos that the Santa Fe inherited from the KCMO; however, they did not stay on the roster for very long (only until 1936). Now, the Santa Fe community is eagerly awaiting the 4000 class 2-8-2s announced by BLI.
It seems to be counterintuitive, but if you model steam on the Santa Fe and are restricted in space, your best option might be brass. In 2004, Division Point produced 100 class 885 2-8-2s and some more (I tried to get the precise number from Jack Vansworth, the DP owner, but he was evasive) class 900 and 1600 2-10-2s. The 2-8-2s are handling 18" curves easily, the 2-10-2s run well on 22" curves. And of course, they all look gorgeous...