zstripe Rich, It's very hard to tell someone how to build a house, that has not built a wall before. Almost exactly how You would scratch build a miniature building....but you start from the outside in, not inside out like a house. What I mean by that. A flat embossed brick styrene sheet, you would cut all the windows/door openings first, then add framing to the inside, butt the sections together and continue your framing on the inside, throughout its length a width. The base should be one solid piece that fits inside your building that you add your walls to. Like example, 1x6 #1 grade Pine the length and width of your model and build your building around it. Your dock doors, some open will look like you have a concrete foundation inside and will match the height of boxcar doors and trailer doors. I know because that's how I do it. You can use a good piece of plywood for that also. Very solid support that way, when I put my on the layout, I screw them to it, just a couple of small wood screws. If I want to move it, just take the screws out, disconnect the light plug and take it to the work bench, if You want. I suggested using the Walthers freight house, because it's in scale, windows are similar and can be used as a template for the freight side for the windows and doors and just keep making the sections along the length. Like I said, a lot of cutting of doors a windows. Browse Micromark scratch building styrene/wood cutting tools,inside corner punches, for windows and doors. Will be much faster/easier with them. When I get a chance today, I'll find them. But nothing stopping You from looking. Also take a look at all the scratch building supplies that Hobbylinc carry's, brick sheets, some up to 24'' in length 6'' wide .020'' different sizes/thickness's, plastruct shapes/evergreen. That is one of the best places I have found for many things, a lot cheaper than a lot of on line stores. I use them a lot: http://www.hobbylinc.com/model-railroad-scratch-supplies Take Care! Frank
Rich,
It's very hard to tell someone how to build a house, that has not built a wall before. Almost exactly how You would scratch build a miniature building....but you start from the outside in, not inside out like a house. What I mean by that. A flat embossed brick styrene sheet, you would cut all the windows/door openings first, then add framing to the inside, butt the sections together and continue your framing on the inside, throughout its length a width. The base should be one solid piece that fits inside your building that you add your walls to. Like example, 1x6 #1 grade Pine the length and width of your model and build your building around it. Your dock doors, some open will look like you have a concrete foundation inside and will match the height of boxcar doors and trailer doors. I know because that's how I do it. You can use a good piece of plywood for that also. Very solid support that way, when I put my on the layout, I screw them to it, just a couple of small wood screws. If I want to move it, just take the screws out, disconnect the light plug and take it to the work bench, if You want. I suggested using the Walthers freight house, because it's in scale, windows are similar and can be used as a template for the freight side for the windows and doors and just keep making the sections along the length. Like I said, a lot of cutting of doors a windows. Browse Micromark scratch building styrene/wood cutting tools,inside corner punches, for windows and doors. Will be much faster/easier with them. When I get a chance today, I'll find them. But nothing stopping You from looking. Also take a look at all the scratch building supplies that Hobbylinc carry's, brick sheets, some up to 24'' in length 6'' wide .020'' different sizes/thickness's, plastruct shapes/evergreen. That is one of the best places I have found for many things, a lot cheaper than a lot of on line stores. I use them a lot:
http://www.hobbylinc.com/model-railroad-scratch-supplies
Take Care!
Frank
I have been spending the morning researching the subject of scratch building, and there is certainly a lot more to it than first meets the eye.
Here is just a sample of what I am talking about. Let's say that I use a styrene sheet for my walls. I cut out the openings for the doors and windows and then insert Tichy or Grandt Line windows and doors. But, I still need to add brick work and pillasters. I still need to add concrete window sills and brick arches over the windows. Whew! Scratch building a detailed structure such as I am contemplating would require a lot of parts and a lot of skill to complete a creditable prototypical building.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainIf I were to scratch build this structure using brick sheets and Tichy windows and doors, as suggested by JaBear, does anyone have some specific suggestions on the tools needed to do this project cleanly and efficiently? Rich
Can you get access to a CNC machine. That would be perfect for cutting out all those doors and windows with the precision needed to accept the premade ones by Tichy or Grandt line. You could use a program link Inkscape to draw out the plan to scale. You only need to draw a window or door once, then Copy/Paste it numerous times. Save it as a DXF file. Most CAM programs should be able to read it.
Are you in Chicago? If so, it looks like you've got quite a few makerspaces in your area. Find out if any of them have a CNC machine. Many of those places let you become a member for just a day or week so that you won't have to pay full memebership price.
http://makerspaces.meetup.com/cities/us/il/chicago/
As to the custom brick work, someone at the ModelRailroadForums made a brick tunnel portal by putting a drag knife in his CNC machine. He had some problems with getting a uniform cutting depth, but that could be solved with a spring-loaded knife.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?30297-Scratch-built-tunnel-portal
Steve S
Unless you're trying to exactly replicate that structure and enjoy scratchbuilding, I'd suggest DPM modular wall sections. When I saw the photo of the prototype, I thought that it might have been the inspiration for their wall sections.
Even if you want to copy the prototype, the DPM walls would be a good starting point. Some appear to be a very close match to the real ones closest to the camera, while the distant ones with the high-positioned small windows could be made from DPM blank (no windows) wall sections.
Scratchbuilding in plaster could be a good option, but it looks like you'd need at least 6 or 7 different scratchbuilt masters to make the necessary moulds for the visible walls. You may be able to use the aforementioned blank sections to make the masters, though.
An important advantage of the DPM sections is that you could use .060" sheet styrene for the roofs and unseen sides and for all interior bracing, yielding an extremely strong, stable, and lightweight structure. The same structure in plaster would not only be quite heavy, but combining such walls with the dissimilar materials needed for the roof, unseen walls, window glazing, and bracing leaves the structural integrity of the finished model questionable, as many of the required adhesives available can deteriorate over time, unlike solvent-type cements used on styrene, which appear to be impervious to the passage of time.
Anyway, Rich, enough chit-chat....get goin', eh?
Wayne
Wayne, great reply, you really got me thinking.
Geez, I hadn't thought about using the DPM blank wall sections for some off those windows.
Steve, lots of good ideas in your reply, thanks. I want to think about that. And, yes, I do live in the Chicago area.
I have to agree with Dr Wayne and use DPM sections if money permits. I have used them before and they really work well. For a large building such as this you WILL need to brace it from the back because the DPM wall sections do not remain flat when glued together. They want to bend at the glue joints over time. The best type of bracing to use is wood. Perhaps 1x1 wood strips. With proper painting the DPM modules will look fine. If you don't have too many other buildings on your layout made this way, they will not look out of place.
If DPM wall sections don't apeal to you, start looking for a company that makes 0.060 thick plastic sheets that are brick embossed. Otherwise you will have to laminate brick embossed sheets onto plastic or wood panels.
I have this Nibbling Cutter from Micro mark and it works well for cutting out windows and doors.
http://www.micromark.com/nibbling-cutter,7761.html
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Elmer, thanks for all those thoughts and ideas. I did not know that there is brick embossed 0.060 plastic sheet. I have only seen thinnerbrick sheets, And, I do not want to laminate brick sheets onto smooth sheets. I have been looking at the nibbler tool as well as the square punch. Lots to consider.
The inside corner punch. Being used in a drill press, but you also can use a wammer...I do. You may not like the price, but can be gotten cheaper. The one's I got 15yrs ago, are still sharp:
http://www.micromark.com/5and16-inch-corner-punch,7805.html
zstripe Rich, The inside corner punch. Being used in a drill press, but you also can use a wammer...I do. You may not like the price, but can be gotten cheaper. The one's I got 15yrs ago, are still sharp: http://www.micromark.com/5and16-inch-corner-punch,7805.html Take Care! Frank
Rich:
The Walthers brick sheets that I mentioned earlier are close to .050" which is plenty stiff enough to stay straight, with proper bracing of course.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3524
Also, they are the same brick pattern as the freight house which Frank suggested you could use as a source for upper wall sections.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2953
The freight house walls and the DPM walls look to be pretty close in pattern so you might be able to go either way depending on cost. The best way to compare would be to buy a package of DPM wall sections and a package of the Walthers brick and compare.
Making the pilasters on the Walthers sheets would be as simple as overlaying a vertical piece of brick sheet the width of the pilaster on to the wall. You might need a shim to give the pilaster proper depth.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
However, do not use the wammer on Walthers styrene brick sheets (and perhaps DPM's, too)...they have a tendency to shatter.
The nibblers that Elmer mentioned work great on styrene.
I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but I made a paper mockup of a section of the freight house, using paper representations of the selected parts.
I started by selecting those DPM modular parts that most closely reflect the actual prototype building. The prototype is actually a 2-story building, but to capture the vertical separations of windows and doors, I selected 1-story and 2-story parts, creating a 3-story building on paper.
The window/door pattern repeats itself every six sections, so I have only shown one 6-section portion of the building. If I make this model, I will construct four sections, two sections will be 3-story and two sections will be 1-story.
Although there are three freight doors in a row, I alternated the doors and windows because I felt that it looked better that way. Also, I created the second story out of 2-story parts to give the vertical impression of space that you see in the prototype between the first and second story windows. Incidentally, those second story windows are taller than the first story windows on the prototype but the DPM modulars wouldn't accommodate me.
Tell me what you think, as crude as the paper mockup appears to be. Is it close enough to be worth the time and money to build it? Be criticlal.
That's a darn good start. I'd personally leave more doors and blank walls in the first floor if you are modeling from the picture above, i.e. in more recent years. If earlier, then the more regular doors and spacing on the first floor you depict in your mock-up likely resemble it more before thinsg got bricked-up and moved around. Maybe you have some earlier pics to guide you here?
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I'm a bit late to the party. But, when I saw the picture my first thought was Hydrocal castings. I saw a picture recently, maybe in MR, of a building that I thought was just outstanding. It was a Downtown Deco model. Their structures are Hydrocal castings. There is just something about Hydrocal walls that looks more like brick and stonework than plastic walls.
When I got back into model railroading, my first scenery was the subway stations. I needed platforms and tile walls. Knowing very little about this, I did some research and decided to cast my own. I bought one sheet of Evergreen styrene sheet for the tile, and another for the platforms. From these, I made a mold with Woodland Scenics latex rubber, and then poured Hydrocal castings until I had enough. It somehow brought out my "inner artist."
So, I would definitely try making up that multi-panel section with DPM modules, making a mold with it and trying your hand at casting. The texture of a Hydrocal surface and the way it takes paint will be very different from a plastic DPM wall. Instead of the DPM windows, I would find a close fit with Grandt Line or Tichy windows. They are finer than DPM, and will once again distinguish your model from a DPM buildup.
Making molds is a mess. Mixing and casting Hydrocal is a mess. Cutting (razor saw) and sanding (sanding screen) Hydrocal castings is a mess, too. I love every minute of it.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
doctorwayne zstripe Rich, The inside corner punch. Being used in a drill press, but you also can use a wammer...I do. You may not like the price, but can be gotten cheaper. The one's I got 15yrs ago, are still sharp: http://www.micromark.com/5and16-inch-corner-punch,7805.html Take Care! Frank However, do not use the wammer on Walthers styrene brick sheets (and perhaps DPM's, too)...they have a tendency to shatter. Wayne
I have not had any problem's, with cracking or the like yet. I use a wood drafting board, that will not give when wamming, (actually, I think that should be whamming, yeah that's it) well anyway, two wacks with a small ball peen whammer does it. The one's I have are extremely sharp. I guess it is possible to crack, if you were trying to cut a raised section that was not laying completely flat.
mlehman Rich, That's a darn good start. I'd personally leave more doors and blank walls in the first floor if you are modeling from the picture above, i.e. in more recent years. If earlier, then the more regular doors and spacing on the first floor you depict in your mock-up likely resemble it more before thinsg got bricked-up and moved around. Maybe you have some earlier pics to guide you here?
http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/30105/page/1
Were it me, I would continue on the rail side just like You have the bottom of the mock -up. Because the rail side has boxcars with more space between the doors. The truck side, if You are going to model it, the doors should be closer together, so trucks trailers part side by side. The freight that comes out of the rail cars, crosses the dock and goes into all different destinations that have little signs above the interior dock door where the vehicle is parked and loading. That's the idea behind cross-dock. Not a lot of freight is stored in the freight house. Immediately loaded.
zstripeI have not had any problem's, with cracking or the like yet. I use a wood drafting board, that will not give when wamming, (actually, I think that should be whamming, yeah that's it) well anyway, two wacks with a small ball peen whammer does it. The one's I have are extremely sharp. I guess it is possible to crack, if you were trying to cut a raised section that was not laying completely flat.
I agree with you regarding the spelling of whammer, but didn't want to appear to be proofreading your post. That said, I believe the result of whammering is whacks.
My corner punch, purpose-bought for the Walthers brick sheets, is from Veritas, about ten bucks more than the MicroMark one. The Walthers brick sheet is only about .045" thick, but seems to be quite hard and, apparently, quite brittle, too. I did the whammering on a sheet of 3/4" plywood atop the workbench, and one blow blew the sheet into several fair-size pieces. Luckily, I was able to cement them all back together, but window-cutting in that stuff will revert to a drill/saw/file procedure.
Wayne,
It appear's my fingers and brain, aren't playing well together. I missed that one. Whacks and kwacks.
Maybe I watched too many Elmer Fudd cartoon's as a kid.
richhotrainMike, tell me more. How would you configure the first floor? Describe how you woud place the door panels, the window panels and the blank panels. One other DPM panel not shown in my paper plan would be a regular door and single window. I hadn't selected that panel in my mockup. http://woodlandscenics.woodlandscenics.com/show/Item/30105/page/1
Sounds like you want to go with a somewhat more original look than in the pic, maybe 1950s?
The Single window/walk-out door combination would be a good substitute for one of the lower section doors. I'm not sure you want it repeated as often as every casting. In fact, I was going to suggest two molds, as that would give you more variants. This might be one reason to do that.
As for the freight doors, I don't know the specific history of this building, but my guess is that the square topped doors were later modifications of some of the arched door locations. If I was going earlier, I'd make the freight doors all arched, rather than mixing them up. You may also be able to take a file and turn a couple of the arched door openings into square ones if you want to come up with another variation. Even though I try to stay away from cutting plaster castings, filing will work if done with care.
In any case, the older the building is from the present that you want to depict, the more of those arched doorways are likely to be original. My guess would be that they all matched when new and that the variations were made at later dates. And the more likely the doors were to be hinged eraly on, rather than roll-ups too, which didn't become common until the 1950-60s.
That building is the C&EI freight house at Dearborn Station in Chicago. Unfortunately, it is the only photo that I can find of the freight house. While I suppose that the doors may have been modified over time, is it really likely that so many doors would be modified, and that the modifications would be consistent across the entire first story?
That photo, taken in the mid-70s shows the freight house in serious decline. My objective would be to model it in a better condition during the 1950s.
I'm only guessing at this, but wouldn't the freight house door spacing be designed to line up with all the freight car doors in the cut of cars when the train is parked, or did they position each car separately? Having to position each car individually would seem to be pretty inefficient.
Rich: The mock up looks pretty good. If you wanted to you could shorten the two story wall sections a bit, and you could also make the windows taller. The sills can be replicated with suitably sized pieces of styrene strip. You would need to chisel off the remnants of the original sills and scribe mortar lines where they were. You would also need to build up the window frame profile and lower the sash joint to suit.
Dave, I have a book with a photo of a C&EI loco pulling a string of box cars up to the freight house docks. So, you may well be correct that the freight house door spacing was designed to line up with all of he freight car doors.
It would make sense to lengthen those second story windows, but that would be a lot of work to cut out the unneeded brick work, add sills, etc.
I made an assumption when I did my last post that there were no docks and that the rails ran right beside the building. That may not have been the case with a facility with so many doors because the spacing of the doors would limit the facility to receiving only one size (length) of boxcar if all the car doors and building doors were to line up at the same time. When I think about it, the facilities that I have seen that have the tracks right next to the building (i.e. no outside dock) only have a few doors spaced fairly far apart.
Re lengthening the windows - I agree that it would require a lot of work. I think that taking a bit off of the bottom of the two storey walls will make the existing windows look more in proportion to the height of the wall.
For what its worth, I have a warehouse facility that is quite long. It is a kitbash of the Lifelike (?) Moore and Co. kit:
I have thought about trying to make the building taller using parts from a second kit but the design doesn't lend itself to that very well. It would require a bit more chopping and splicing than I want to get into. Instead I will have much taller backgound buildings behind it.
What is not evident in the pic, with the N&W Engine, that awning and dock went the length of the building. The boxcars did not have to be spotted by a door. The tracks aren't even shown in the pic. A lot of that awning is missing. It looked similar to Dave's building with that kind of dock, but the length of it. That's how it looked in the 50's. You got to remember, most all those buildings were built, some before 1918 and many modifications were done to it over time.
richhotrainIs it close enough to be worth the time and money to build it?
See above.
richhotrain, I alternated the doors and windows because I felt that it looked better that way.
It is your model.
"How would you configure the first floor?"
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
JaBear,
Good points. If Rich really wanted to replicate that structure in it's grand glory....He would have to git rid of all or most all gas powered vehicles and replace them with horse drawn wagons, because that's the time frame. Could have a few chain drive Mack's around.
zstripeHe would have to git rid of all or most all gas powered vehicles and replace them with horse drawn wagons,
Heck Frank, I'm only trying to help Rich to see if he might want to give scratch building a go, not change era as well!!!!
Though that might be better than howlin' at the moon.
Cheers, the Bear.
hon30critter Rich: I made an assumption when I did my last post that there were no docks and that the rails ran right beside the building. That may not have been the case with a facility with so many doors because the spacing of the doors would limit the facility to receiving only one size (length) of boxcar if all the car doors and building doors were to line up at the same time. When I think about it, the facilities that I have seen that have the tracks right next to the building (i.e. no outside dock) only have a few doors spaced fairly far apart. Re lengthening the windows - I agree that it would require a lot of work. I think that taking a bit off of the bottom of the two storey walls will make the existing windows look more in proportion to the height of the wall. For what its worth, I have a warehouse facility that is quite long. It is a kitbash of the Lifelike (?) Moore and Co. kit: I have thought about trying to make the building taller using parts from a second kit but the design doesn't lend itself to that very well. It would require a bit more chopping and splicing than I want to get into. Instead I will have much taller backgound buildings behind it. Dave