Richs track diagram would also make the caption for this photo wrong, (The freight house on the right is the C&EI outbound freight house. The building dead ahead center is the C&EI inbound freight house.”), as the freight house on the right would be the C&EI inbound freight house. http://monon.monon.org/chicago2/10-04MononDearborn-southbound.jpg
This is the correct photo link for that caption, and the outbound freight house is, indeed, on the right, and the infound freight house (the subject of this thread) is dead ahead.
http://monon.monon.org/chicago/MESYDChicag901.jpg
Rich
P.S. Frank includes this same photo in his most recent reply.
Alton Junction
As you might imagine, with Dearborn Station serving six railroads, the competition for freight storage space was at a premium. Each railroad had one or more freight houses (inbound, outbound, storage) of its own. I highlighted these facilities on the attached track diagram.
Since there have been several photo links to Monon in the replies, I highlighted the old Monon lead and its former freight house. By the 1950's, Monon moved over the Annex, just east of Dearborn Station.
Rich,
As You are well aware....some I guess don't realize, the diagram You provided is a gigantic railroad/truck shipping/unloading facility, that is only half of what is there. On the other side of the river, is another facility with a similar diagram and just as large as the one You provided, but with different railroads. Erie,PRR,etc. In the 20's/30's, 40's/50's, LTL (Less Truck Load), LCL (Less Car Load) was in it's hey day. Thousands of jobs in that area, after the war.
Btw: I glad I found that other pic, cause I wanted to show what the truck docks looked like, so if You decide to make Your Dream freight house free standing You'll need to see what it looked like. Back then the Railroads/Trucks worked hand in hand in the LTL,LCL,freight business. Like You already know from our conversations....I was there, My memory may be a little cloudy....but not by much.
Take Care!
Frank
Frank, that photo of the west side of the C&EI inbound freight house was invaluable, because the window and door arrangement was different than on the more commonly viewed east side of the freight house.
Regarding the other freight house complexes, you are correct. My track diagram for Dearborn Station only covers the six railroads that it served. To the west of Dearborn Station was LaSalle Station and its freight houses, then Grand Central Station and its freight houses, then Union Station and its freight houses. To the east of Dearborn Station was Central Station and its freight houses.
I need to rent a warehouse to build my Dream layout so that I can include all six Downtown Chicago passenger stations (including Northwestern Station). LOL
richhotrainI need to rent a warehouse to build my Dream layout so that I can include all six Downtown Chicago passenger stations (including Northwestern Station). LOL
See, I knew this discussion might bring you out of the modeling doldrums. That should keep you busy until 2025 or so...
BTW, nice annotated map.
My main interest in the Monon is far to the south in the limestone quarry lines and the old Bedford & Bloomfield (originally 3', then widened into a rather rambling standard gauge branch that lasted in shrinking form almost to the end of the Monon as a quarry branch on the northwest side of Bedford.) I deeply regret finances have led me to temporarily drop my Monon RR Historical & Technical Society membership, but highly recommend them for anyone interested in the Monon. Their website is well worth some quality time, too.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Rich:
Sorry for not giving you proper credit for posting the track drawing.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Rich: Sorry for not giving you proper credit for posting the track drawing. Dave
Oh, the humanity !
I'm not letting You sneak away from this thread.
We got all the where's and shots of the building.....now whatcha' going do? Inquiring minds want to know?
I took the plunge today and removed my whole grain elevator complex, started on repositioning the three tracks that are there. Gonna have to break down and buy two sticks of flex track. Also had to redesign the three open air Transload buildings. Three to gether will be 36'' long, will have to make it 28''. That will be 5 1/2 wide and 28'' long. Should have taken pic's of it before I took it down, but didn't think of it until I removed it and packed it away. The grain elevator complex that is.
So are You going do it? Or do You need more research? LOL.
Long before this thread was started, my mind has raced back and forth between kitbashing, using Walthers or DPM modulars, or an outright scratch build of this freight house.
The Walthers modulars more closely reflects the look of the freight house than the DPM modulars, but the Walthers modulars have been discontinued for some time now.
If I take on this project, I really do want it to closely resembles the prototype because it will be so prominent on my layout, measuring around 52" in length. So, I think the only proper way to do this is to scratch build it. Tichy doors and windows most closely capture the look and the dimension of the prototype. I would cut out the openings in styrene brick sheet. The Tichy windows and doors have trim that overlaps the edge of the openings, so imperfections in the cutting process could be concealed. The Tichy windows and doors are pictured below.
52'' Sure is a lot of window's and doors, not to mention, cutting them out. Just remember, the other side will be very similar to the flat roof building with the truck dock. Some of those truck dock doors, could be double wide, instead of all single. Without transom's, if You can find them. Those docks were mighty cold to work on in the winter time. Not all doors were open then and they were not heated, how well I know that.
Well, back to bashing.
Have Fun!
BTW: Hope You can find 50's scale trucks/trailers. I about cleaned everyone out, in the past two months. Especially the International R190 1953 Tractors and 32ft Trailers by CMW, That I have been stripping the paint from and repainting. LOL.
I was just checking on a order from Walthers and I run across these. I don't usually do Adv. Res.,but I gotta have these.Sure would look great at Your dream freight house, correct road also:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/949-2358
richhotrain...The Tichy windows and doors have trim that overlaps the edge of the openings, so imperfections in the cutting process could be concealed....
The Tichy windows for non-masonry structures have overlapping trim, but windows in brick, stone, or concrete buildings don't. There's generally a brick moulding to which the brick is layed, but it's inset to the face of the wall.If the windows illustrated are intended for wooden structures, you may be able to install them from the inside of the walls, and if the fit in the wall opening is a bit "loose", add brick moulding using strip styrene. However, if those windows represent ones which open, the lower sash will be protruding rather than recessed, which would not be prototypical.Tichy does offer some windows for masonry structures, and that will be noted in the part's description.
Time to strap on the skis, Rich.....welcome to the slippery slope.
Wayne
Wayne,
Good point....that totally slipped My mind, about the windows/doors.
Should be evident in these photos, as to what Wayne means:
Btw: Sorry about the added info....would not let me copy just the window's.
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The Tichy catalogue shows windows and doors as either "framed" or "masonry". It's a PDF and takes ages to load on my steam-era computer, but it does show photos of everything which they offer. Here's a link:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tichytraingroup.com%2FPortals%2F0%2FInstructions%2FHOcatalog.pdf&ei=-i5ZVNCVNsaAygTzg4CIDA&usg=AFQjCNHMfr13wyTZSeqmRXpoUgYP6Goltw&sig2=H5evWufigI1KUuk1CdRdCQ&bvm=bv.78677474,d.aWw
doctorwayne richhotrain ...The Tichy windows and doors have trim that overlaps the edge of the openings, so imperfections in the cutting process could be concealed....
richhotrain ...The Tichy windows and doors have trim that overlaps the edge of the openings, so imperfections in the cutting process could be concealed....
I don't see anywhere on the Tichy site where they mention brick wall thickness, but most styrene brick walls seem to be 0.020" thickness. Does that sound about right?
Besides those exact cuts, my other two concerns about scratch building are the brick arches over the windows and the concrete sills below the windows. The sills don't seem like a big deal, but the brick arches concern me.
The thickness of the Tichy masonry windows is about .040", but the ones I have appear to be made to fit into an exact opening - there's no room for error, as there's nothing to overlap the interior edges of the opening. If I were using them, I'd add an overlapping strip of styrene around the inside face of the window - that would minimise the appearance of any gaps and provide a better gluing surface and would also keep the window at a constant depth from the visible face of the wall.The Walthers brick sheets are about .050" thick - too thin, I think, to represent an industrial-type wall, which would have been double or triple brick, or brick over concrete blocks. I think that makes the DPM wall sections more suitable overall, although cutting openings in either type will be onerous.Concrete sills can be done as a simple overlay of .010" or .015" styrene strip, but brick arches may require individual pieces or the creation of thin one-piece resin castings.While I've built a couple of fairly accurate copies of particular prototypes, this is one of the reasons I prefer to freelance. Otherwise, I tend to let myself slide way too far down the slope, with the result that a project takes far too long to complete. That's not a concern if you have only a couple of such projects, but when you're trying to build an operating model railroad with a reasonably "finished" appearance, it may not be the best use of one's time.
Were I to do that warehouse, I'd use DPM walls and not likely modify them much, if at all. I think that you can capture the essence of most structures without having to copy them exactly. That's not saying that you should do the same, but it could be a viable option. Wayne
Wayne, thanks for those comments.
I would make good politician because I keep on flip-flopping.
I will use modulars, No, I will scratch build, No, I will use modulars.
This is why, so far, I have not started the project.
doctorwayne Were I to do that warehouse, I'd use DPM walls and not likely modify them much, if at all. I think that you can capture the essence of most structures without having to copy them exactly. That's not saying that you should do the same, but it could be a viable option.
Were I to do that warehouse, I'd use DPM walls and not likely modify them much, if at all. I think that you can capture the essence of most structures without having to copy them exactly. That's not saying that you should do the same, but it could be a viable option.
Call it wishful thinking.
doctorwayne Concrete sills can be done as a simple overlay of .010" or .015" styrene strip, but brick arches may require individual pieces or the creation of thin one-piece resin castings. Were I to do that warehouse, I'd use DPM walls and not likely modify them much, if at all. I think that you can capture the essence of most structures without having to copy them exactly. That's not saying that you should do the same, but it could be a viable option. Wayne
Concrete sills can be done as a simple overlay of .010" or .015" styrene strip, but brick arches may require individual pieces or the creation of thin one-piece resin castings.
I always enjoy reading your contributions to the forum. You've mentioned something that I could never really figure out in my years in the hobby, since I'm more of a kitbasher than a scratchbuilder:
I can't figure out how to represent the arched brick lintils that older buildings have, or even the brick sills, if I were to cut window and door openings into brick sheet styrene.
I was thinking that maybe Tichy would sell these trim parts as part of their window and door offerings but it seems like you're saying that casting them out of resin may be the only way.
I agree with your opinion about using the DPM modulars. I think Rich's mock up shown on a previous page would look great.
- Douglas
I came across this HO scale brickwork from The N Scale Architect.
http://thenarch.com/products/brick-windows-arches-details-ho
Has anyone had any experience with this product?
It could be useful for adding those brick arches over the windows.
Do you like either one or neither one?
richhotrain I came across this HO scale brickwork from The N Scale Architect. http://thenarch.com/products/brick-windows-arches-details-ho Has anyone had any experience with this product? It could be useful for adding those brick arches over the windows. Rich
Another issue would be if the arches are the same radius as the Tichy windows. I can't figure why Tichy wouldn't make something to go with their windows, but I guess not.
richhotrain Do you like either one or neither one?
They both look great, especially if they were painted the grey color of the prototype.
You could make the bottom windows smaller by cutting up an extra brick wall into small shapes that would fill in the bottoms of the windows. Sure you would see the lines and it would look like bricked in windows if you looked closely, but it might pass the three foot test.
Doughless richhotrain I came across this HO scale brickwork from The N Scale Architect. http://thenarch.com/products/brick-windows-arches-details-ho Has anyone had any experience with this product? It could be useful for adding those brick arches over the windows. Rich Another issue would be if the arches are the same radius as the Tichy windows. I can't figure why Tichy wouldn't make something to go with their windows, but I guess not.
I think the second one with the doors in the center further apart, would match better for the boxcars spotted at the dock. I also think that You are over thinking the arches above the window, but a concrete sill at the bottom of the window, cut from Evergreen stock would look good. They already make the size, just cut the length.
When You put them on, file a little off each end, so they fit inside the opening of the window and meet flush with the bottom of the window. That will give it more character, as if the window was sitting on the sill.
Better yet, use a Evergreen right angle shape for the sill and file the ends to fit inside.
zstripe I think the second one with the doors in the center further apart, would match better for the boxcars spotted at the dock.
I think the second one with the doors in the center further apart, would match better for the boxcars spotted at the dock.
I've got to throw my in here.
I think you are using the wrong style windows. The windows in your lay up have fully rounded tops and lintels (part #243-30109 I believe). The windows in the prototype have partially rounded tops and lintels, which DPM offers. Those would be closer to the prototype IMHO.
If you were to use parts #243-30130 - one story wall section with partially rounded windows, #243-30115 - dock riser, and #243-30117 - cornice together, I think you could get a second story wall with better proportions and with a closer resemblance to the prototype. No cutting required!
The lower story could be done with part #243-30136 - dock level single man door with a partially rounded top/lintel window. The freight doors would remain the same.
hon30critter Rich: I've got to throw my in here. I think you are using the wrong style windows. The windows in your lay up have fully rounded tops and lintels (part #243-30109 I believe). The windows in the prototype have partially rounded tops and lintels, which DPM offers. Those would be closer to the prototype IMHO.
I'm not sure that I agree with you. To me, the windows in the photo seem to be more rounded at the top. What do others think?
Originally, I would have opted for the fully-rounded tops, but on closer inspection of the prototype photo, the windows appear to be about halfway between fully-rounded and partially-rounded. Whichever you choose, Rich, will have to be modified accordingly.
Personally, I'd stick with the fully-rounded ones - they look less incorrect than the partially-rounded ones.
As for the window sills, I'd go with flat pieces of strip material cemented to the face of the brick,then paint them and the moulded-in sill the same colour - less work for a similar effect.
First, I think it will look good regardless of which window style you choose. You are not likely going to have a picture of the prototype stuck on the background to compare it to so knowbody except you (and me) will know the difference.
Your revised lay up isn't quite what I had in mind, but the window style is correct IMHO.
What I was suggesting is that instead of using the two story wall panels as you have shown, use a one story wall panel but add a dock riser section to the bottom of the wall and a cornice section to the top. That will give you approximately the same height for the second story wall but it will place the windows lower in the wall. To me, that will more accurately model the prototype. It will eliminate the appearance of the second story windows being too high in the wall, which is how I see your current lay up looking.
As for the window style - I have to disagree with Doctor Wayne on this one (I will probably burn in someplace very hot for disagreeing with him). Here is my reasoning: The fully rounded top windows appear to the naked eye to be narrower than the partially rounded ones. The fully rounded top draws your eye to the center of the window. The partially rounded window tops allow your eye to move easily from one to the next. (Has anybody had any art lessons here?) The goal is to make the structure appear to be as long as possible so I suggest using windows which do not draw your eye into the center of each window. IMHO less curve equals wider appearance. Yes, I have had art lessons, and architectural drawing lessons, and I was in the window business for the better part of my career so I have a biased opinion.
Rich: Always remember that it is your railroad and you can do whatever the heck you want!