Hi fellas. I have a problem. I have a Walthers 6.5 right curved turnout and when my steam loco goes over it in reverse, at VERY slow speeds, it stops and the headlight goes out. If I press on the tender where the pickups are it will start moving. It seems as if the plastic is too high inside the frog not allowing it to make electrical contact. Is there a way to fix this on the layout? It works fine at speeds greater than 3. I have checked the electrical workings of the wheels and they all pick up electrically. I also checked the distance between the flange ways and guardrails with an NMRA gauge and it's fine.
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Paul
If it really is a problem with high plastic fill in the frog, a thin needle file or a Dremel cut-off disk might do the trick. It is just as likely, though, that when you press on the tender you are improving contact at points higher than the tires of the tender. Or, maybe pressing on the tender, if it is light (Bachmann's are bad for that), causes the points to sit better if the points do not get good contact, or maybe the closure rail jumpers under the turnout make better contact.
Remember that the plastic liner in the frog acts as a ramp for the flanges so that they wheels don't drop and bounce, maybe causing a deraiment. So, if you figure you have nothing to lose by gouging out some plastic in the frog, you may end up trading it for another form of grief. And, even if it doesn't change a thing, and the problems are elsewhere, you will still have those other places to seek.
Paul,
Is the loco in question and older one with deep flanges? Many older Rivarossi-built and other HO locos will not operate well on track smaller than code 100. If that's the problem, you may wish to evaluate your options.
If flange depth is not the issue, perhaps the frog area wasn't molded properly? I'm not sure how much would need to be removed, but a small file is one way.
Before modifying the track, though, make sure it's not the loco that's is the problem. Because you risk ending up creating new issues in trying to modify the track to accommodate a single loco with a problem.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Thanks for your fast answers. It's a Bachman 2-8-0. I am 100% certain it's not the loco. I bought it a few months ago. It runs fine and only gets hung up right at that particular frog, nowhere else.
This is why I asked, I figured that it might need to be gently filed but that's an awfully narrow area to file and I have small files too. It's code 83 track by the way.
What type of steam loco?
The problem may be the radius of the curved turnout which is 20" on the inside track and 24" on the outside track.
Why don't you add some weight to the tender and see what happens?
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi Rich!
It's a Bachman 2-8-0. I did add some weight and it works okay. Like I said, if I press down on the tender RIGHT at that spot the light will come on and it will start moving. So I think the plastic inside the frog is a tiny bit too high. Sound right?
BTW: Layout coming along fine but slowly. I have a tunnel built, have to finish it and then make a mountain. This hobby, man everything happens so slowly.
Well, it's intermittent. I tried placing a bottle of paint on the tender and it worked but then it hesitated. Ditto with a small flashlight. I get the feeling by moving it by hand that it's binding through the frog. This is the straight part of the track too. Something like this could drive me nuts. Especially when I checked everything with a gauge.
If it is binding through the frog, I don't see where a light filing of the sides and the bed of the frog would hurt anything. A light filing.
And, I would keep some additional weight in the tender.
richhotrain If it is binding through the frog, I don't see where a light filing of the sides and the bed of the frog would hurt anything. A light filing. And, I would keep some additional weight in the tender. Rich
Thanks Rich. I can probably get a needle file in there. I'll give it a shot after I do about fifty million things for the wife.
Paul_in_GA Hi Rich! It's a Bachman 2-8-0. I did add some weight and it works okay. Like I said, if I press down on the tender RIGHT at that spot the light will come on and it will start moving. So I think the plastic inside the frog is a tiny bit too high. Sound right? BTW: Layout coming along fine but slowly. I have a tunnel built, have to finish it and then make a mountain. This hobby, man everything happens so slowly.
Good to hear that you are making progress on the layout.
We will want to see photos of that tunnel and mountain when you are ready.
It definitely sounds like the frog is lifting the power pickup wheels off the rails.
Before you start cutting up the frog, make sure you have power at all ends of the turout. I have had a few Atlas turnouts that would do the same thing, the switch was not making contact at times. So having power via feeders at all sides fixed that problem. So when I built my current layout or add a new siding I make sure I have feeders going to all the sides of the turnout. No problems since!
The first thing I'd try would be to slide a straight edge across the rails and see if the straight edge hits the frog.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
Eric97123 Before you start cutting up the frog, make sure you have power at all ends of the turout. I have had a few Atlas turnouts that would do the same thing, the switch was not making contact at times. So having power via feeders at all sides fixed that problem. So when I built my current layout or add a new siding I make sure I have feeders going to all the sides of the turnout. No problems since!
Thanks Eric, but this is a DCC friendly insulfrog. I can power all sides, not a problem, but since the points are not powered does this make a difference?
superbe The first thing I'd try would be to slide a straight edge across the rails and see if the straight edge hits the frog. Bob
Already did that Bob and it's a good idea. Thats was the FIRST thing I tried. LOL!
Good one though!
Thanks.
If its an Atlas switch the problem is the switch, some are warped from the factory if you didnt put a track nail in the center hole in the tie by the frog the wheels will lift off and lose contact with the rail. Gently push down by the frog if it drops down to your road bed or table that is your culprit, been there and I have about 75 of them on my layout, got to be troublesome after a while but I read somewhere on here they had the same problem, Jim.
gondola1988 If its an Atlas switch the problem is the switch, some are warped from the factory if you didnt put a track nail in the center hole in the tie by the frog the wheels will lift off and lose contact with the rail. Gently push down by the frog if it drops down to your road bed or table that is your culprit, been there and I have about 75 of them on my layout, got to be troublesome after a while but I read somewhere on here they had the same problem, Jim.
Thanks but it's a Walthers insulfrog, not an Atlas electrofrog. I think it needs some gentle filing because it binds only at the frog on the "straight" part of the curve, not the turnout section.
It seems as if the frog plastic base is lifting one or more of the wheel off the track and then it loses power. So I will have to somehow file the base of the frog plastic.
Eric, is your system DCC?
This is what I've discovered so far through troubleshooting. First it works fine at speeds above 2.
I used a bright flashlight and a magnifying lens to look at the wheels when it happens. This is a Bachmann 2-8-0 and it gets its power from the tender wheels (you probably already know this), so what I did was set the NCE controller to 1 and let it move ever so slowly through the frog area till it stops.
Then I turn the knob on the CAB to zero but leave the loco's headlight on as this ONLY happens going forward, not reverse.
It will stop every time. So I took my needle file and moved the forward truck around till the headlight would come on and go off.
It looks like when the rear set of tender wheels are between the insulated part of the frog the forward set somehow doesn't make good enough contact. If I wiggle them slightly the light goes on and off.
Two other locos are fine at the same speed, a Baldwin VO-1000 and a U23B. It's just this Bachman and only at this one turnout, the non-diverging part.
I was thinking about adding feeder wires to the turnout but I don't want a short. But then again if I add feeder wires to the track what difference would it make because it WILL pick up electrical power when wiggled.
I filed down the frog base but that didn't help. I made SURE everything was spotless so nothing would impede current flow.
Anyway, just curious, IF you have a DCC system could you tell me exactly what rails to add feeders to so I don't short out the system? I am really good with electrical stuff but railroads are entirely different than what I'm used to because of this insulated frog and I know there's hidden wires underneath built in. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that concept.
First thing I would do is to take a VOM meter, and check to see if there is a circuit here when the probes of the meter is barely touching the rails. If not, then I suspect that the metal jumpers underneath the rails have become unattached to the rails on one or both of the jumpers.
The solution then is to either temporarily remove the turnout, turn it over and determine which jumper is loose and repair it. If it can't be removed, then just run some feeders to the rails. Your problem sounds just like there is a loss of power across the jumpers, but when the rail is pressed down a little, power is restored as the jumpers are now making contact on the underside of the rails again.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
cjcrescent First thing I would do is to take a VOM meter, and check to see if there is voltage here when the probes of the meter is barely touching the rails. You can also check this using the Ohm's setting on the meter. If not, then I suspect that the metal jumpers underneath the rails have become unattached to the rails on one or both of the jumpers. The solution then is to either temporarily remove the turnout, turn it over and determine which jumper is loose and repair it. If it can't be removed, then just run some feeders to the rails. Your problem sounds just like there is a loss of power across the jumpers, but when the rail is pressed down a little, power is restored as the jumpers are now making contact on the underside of the rails again.
First thing I would do is to take a VOM meter, and check to see if there is voltage here when the probes of the meter is barely touching the rails. You can also check this using the Ohm's setting on the meter. If not, then I suspect that the metal jumpers underneath the rails have become unattached to the rails on one or both of the jumpers.
Carey, thanks. That's what I think also. I can't remove it so could you tell me which rails to run feeders to to avoid shorts?
if you can come up with a couple of old dental scrapers, you will find them invaluable for working on switch frogs.
charlie
They say a picture is worth a thousand words. See if this makes it clear enough for you, Paul.
cjcrescent They say a picture is worth a thousand words. See if this makes it clear enough for you, Paul.
Well it kinda makes it clear but what ones are the points and where is the insulation spots between the frog?
Thanks a lot, I appreciate it, heading to bed, maybe it'll make more sense when I'm more alert.
I'll print it out and compare it to the turnout, I also need to look at a diagram I have in a book about definitions, like stock rails. I'm a newbie at this, I can do it I just don't want to mess it up.
Paul_in_GA Well it kinda makes it clear but what ones are the points and where is the insulation spots between the frog? I'll print it out and compare it to the turnout, I also need to look at a diagram I have in a book about definitions, like stock rails. I'm a newbie at this, I can do it I just don't want to mess it up.
Here's another drawing, with the parts labeled. I have this time included the approximate location of the gaps that make the frog a non-powered one. The rest of the parts are also labeled, and just for simplicity, I called one side + and the other -. They are also colored to show the electrical relationship of the parts to each other. You can either "replace" the jumpers as I said in my earlier posts or substitute feeders.
Since the problem only seems to be happening when you attempt to go thru the turnout along the "straight" side, I would suggest that you add the feeder approximately where the circle is. You could of course add all new jumpers in the approximate locations shown on the drawing, as I originally suggested in my original answer.
Adding just the one feeder would be easiest.
This whole discussion seems to be getting much more complicated than it needs to be.
The first question that I have about the most recent part of this thread is: what happened Paul when you slid that straight edge along the rails to the frog as superbe suggested? Did it pass easily over the frog or did it get hung up?
Secondly, you can add feeders to the rails on all three ends of the turnout without causing a short unless the turnout leads into or out of a reverse loop. But, if the power pick up wheels are being lifted off the rails by a raised frog, then the feeders aren't going to solve the problem.
Third, Atlas doesn't make electrofrog turnouts. The point rails get their from the jumpers on the underside of the turnout, not from powering the frog.
Fourth, as I recall from your original post at the beginning of the thread, the loss of power only occurs at the slowest speeds as the loco is moving in reverse. So the power pickup wheels on the tender are the affected area as they try to move through the frog. At slow speeds, they bind. At higher speeds, the wheels get through the frog without binding.
One thing you might do is to temporarily replace the offending turnout with a spare or if you don't have a spare, swap the offending turnout with another turnout from your layout. That way, you can eliminate the tender as the problem and focus on the turnout.
I still say that a light filing of the sides and base of the frog ought to solve the problem if, indeed, the frog is the problem.
If the affected loco goes through the turnout in forward and doesn't get hung up, and if other locos all get through the turnout at slow speeds without a problem, forward and reverse, then the problem with the turnout is not the jumpers but the tight frog. You gotta pin that down, close in on the true source of the problem. You are still in the investigative stage.
Since I helped Paul lay the track, I can help offer some insight. He is working with a Walthers RH curved turnout, as stated in the original post. My question is, did Paul check the wheel gauge on the tender? If it's a bit tight or wide, that could cause the wheels to be lifted by the wing or guard rails or frog. Also check the flange depth, but since this is a new model, I doubt this is the issue. Paul said he checked the turnout, I believe, but I don't know if he checked the model. This should have been done first, since his others seem to have no problems.
If the wheelsets check out fine, then it's time to focus on the turnout. Since Paul's trackplan only has one such turnout, swapping it isn't an option. I'd second the suggestion of fully checking the T/O with the VOM, make sure every last inch is getting power. Assuming this has been done and checks out OK, then it's time to check and see why the tender wheels are being lifted. Theoretically, if the T/O and wheels all check out with the NMRA gauge, there shouldn't be a reason for this. I'd check to make sure the trucks turn and swivel freely, and have a little bit of "rock" to them. I'd check the frog and guard rails for plastic flash and remove it if present.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
Oh that's right, Paul is talking about a curved turnout so he only has the one to work with.
If he has other steam locos, can he run those steamers through the turnout in reverse at low speeds?
If he can, then I would rule out the turnout and focus on the loco.
If he can't, then I would rule out the loco and focus on the turnout.
Right now, we just don't know who is the offender.
I'm not aware that he does, unless he has a recent purchase, but I will see if I can arrange another visit to help him troubleshoot - if he doesn't track down the problem before.
richhotrain Oh that's right, Paul is talking about a curved turnout so he only has the one to work with. If he has other steam locos, can he run those steamers through the turnout in reverse at low speeds? If he can, then I would rule out the turnout and focus on the loco. If he can't, then I would rule out the loco and focus on the turnout. Right now, we just don't know who is the offender. Rich
First, thank you all for helping.
Let's get the basics down.
1. It is OK in reverse, I was mistaken.
2. The truck on the tender swivels perfectly.
3. When I run a straightedge along the track all the way past the frog it does not get hung up.
4. It does not bind as I originally thought.
5. It stops right when the rear wheels are on the rail where it is insulated.
6. When it does get stuck I can wiggle the forward truck and it'll get juice.
Conclusion? It appears as if something is lifting the forward truck causing it to lose power. The other locos are fine because they are long enough to pick up power. The tender's wheels are close together.
I have not had a chance to put my VOM on it yet (I will though) but it has to be getting power because if I wiggle that truck or push down on it it moves. This only happens at the absolutely lowest setting of 1.
I removed some flash and filed down the frog base but I get the feeling something is lifting the truck.
One more clue and this is baffling. When it's stuck if I push on the FOAM on the table it'll move. So it seems like flexing the track helps too.
I don't have anything at all to replace it.
Paul - use your NMRA gauge and check the gauge on the wheelsets. I'm suspecting they may be slightly wide or narrow.
One thing that I and others have written about before on this forum is the absolute necessity to build a stable base under a curved turnout. My curved turnouts used to sit on Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed which sits on a 1/2 inch plywood surface. A few years back, I began placing a large thin piece of styrene sheet completely under the entire curved turnout. That ensures that all of the rails on the turnout are level and even. I don't know if that is your problem but from all of the symptoms that you mention, it is something to consider. Stabilize the curved turnout as much as possible.