doctorwayne Sorry, but I'm not familiar with that loco. Your reference to rubber had me confused, but I see that the loco has traction tires on the rear driver set. According to the site I looked at, your loco picks up current on all drivers (except those with the traction tires), so there's a problem within the wiring from the locomotive to the decoder, I'd guess. As I mentioned in my previous post, it's likely that the pick-up is working only on the tender, and when it hits that turnout and quits, it's because the contact between the turnout and the tender wheels, for whatever reason, has been broken. Touching the tender restores contact, but the loco itself should be part of the power supply too. I'd check that wiring. Wayne
Sorry, but I'm not familiar with that loco. Your reference to rubber had me confused, but I see that the loco has traction tires on the rear driver set.
According to the site I looked at, your loco picks up current on all drivers (except those with the traction tires), so there's a problem within the wiring from the locomotive to the decoder, I'd guess. As I mentioned in my previous post, it's likely that the pick-up is working only on the tender, and when it hits that turnout and quits, it's because the contact between the turnout and the tender wheels, for whatever reason, has been broken. Touching the tender restores contact, but the loco itself should be part of the power supply too. I'd check that wiring.
Wayne
Thanks Wayne, a LOT! Now the big hassle begins as I have never disassembled a loco down to that level. I guess tomorrow I go hunting for wires that are not connected. On this one all I did was take apart the tender to install the decoder and it was a female dog. I have no idea what I'll find when I open the loco. I WISH there were either better disassembly instructions rather than an exploded drawing or a book on disassembling them. Every other hobby I have been involved in from building PC's, to wood working, to making balsa planes had detailed instructions. But this hobby assumes a body of knowledge that is difficult to aquire. Unless one has enough money to make mistakes and can toss locos he messes up.
Oh well. Such is life eh?
Paul, while I know little of decoder installation, the site where I learned a little more about that loco can be viewed HERE
I haven't read through it, but there's a specific admonishment to "avoid damage to the wiring", so it might be worth reading.
doctorwayne Paul, while I know little of decoder installation, the site where I learned a little more about that loco can be viewed HERE I haven't read through it, but there's a specific admonishment to "avoid damage to the wiring", so it might be worth reading. Wayne
I KNEW I shouldn't have messed with it because now it's ALL messed up. I opened up the tender and reset the plug and then the mains picked up power. However, I really messed up SO badly that it's now unusable. I took apart the loco not knowing what to expect. Now I can't get it back together properly. I got it back together once and when I tried to run it it was binding. Now it's all in pieces and I'm pretty angry at myself because I have NO idea how to fix it and I had NO idea how to take one apart. This is disappointing because at least it was working before I ruined it. I'm beginning to hate this hobby.
Wow, we all go to bed and wake up to this?
Wayne, wake up! Are you there?
I think that the reason this thread grew to nine pages is that it became a working session on line with Paul going back and forth to and from the computer to the layout and back again.
No one bothered to ask about the drivers because we were all under the impression that the problem was focused on the frog or the slow speed performance of the loco or both. All pickups, wherever they were located, were working, or so we were told.
I don't blame Paul, but an inexperienced model railroader often has difficulty with describing the problem and reducing it to its root causes.
In this case, it started out quite simply with the understanding that the loco only failed at the slowest speed step in reverse to get past the frog. Turned out, it worked fine in reverse.
Then, it was only on this turnout. Later, we find out that it is happening on more than one turnout.
The frog is raised. Later, no it is not.
The tender wheels bind in the frog area. No they don't.
it only stalls at speed step one. Oops, it fails at higher speed steps, say 10.
It's a Bachmann, no it is a Roundhouse.
As I say, I don't blame Paul, he is a newbie to the hobby.
But, he will need to improve his investigative skills when seeking online help.
Anyway, back to the issue at hand.
From what I just read when I woke up and came online is that the Roundhouse 2-8-0 is an all wheel pickup, 8 driver wheels and 8 tender wheels. Assuming that the wiring harness was somehow defective and power was only being picked up by the tender, we were told that both trucks had power. Assuming that was true, the loco should be able to pass over the frogs of the various turnouts on Paul's layout without stalling.
So, aren't we back where we started?
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Wow, we all go to bed and wake up to this? Wayne, wake up! Are you there? I think that the reason this thread grew to nine pages is that it became a working session on line with Paul going back and forth to and from the computer to the layout and back again. No one bothered to ask about the drivers because we were all under the impression that the problem was focused on the frog or the slow speed performance of the loco or both. All pickups, wherever they were located, were working, or so we were told. I don't blame Paul, but an inexperienced model railroader often has difficulty with describing the problem and reducing it to its root causes. In this case, it started out quite simply with the understanding that the loco only failed at the slowest speed step in reverse to get past the frog. Turned out, it worked fine in reverse. Then, it was only on this turnout. Later, we find out that it is happening on more than one turnout. The frog is raised. Later, no it is not. The tender wheels bind in the frog area. No they don't. it only stalls at speed step one. Oops, it fails at higher speed steps, say 10. It's a Bachmann, no it is a Roundhouse. As I say, I don't blame Paul, he is a newbie to the hobby. But, he will need to improve his investigative skills when seeking online help. Anyway, back to the issue at hand. From what I just read when I woke up and came online is that the Roundhouse 2-8-0 is an all wheel pickup, 8 driver wheels and 8 tender wheels. Assuming that the wiring harness was somehow defective and power was only being picked up by the tender, we were told that both trucks had power. Assuming that was true, the loco should be able to pass over the frogs of the various turnouts on Paul's layout without stalling. So, aren't we back where we started? Rich
Rich, this is what I get when I don't have experenice. This infuriates me because all they give you is an exploded drawing. That's ridiculous. They don't even show the wires on it. I paid a lot for this loco and all I get is a crappy exploded view. I guess they assume a body of knowledge but how do you ge it?
This is where I am now.
I took apart the tender and reset the plug for the wheels on the main loco and they worked. But I STUPIDLY took apart the loco and it fell apart in my hands. It took me THREE HOURS to get the articulating rods and those little pins to get back together again and THEN when I ran it it was bound up so badly it wouldn't budge.
So I took it apart again and electrified the wheels and it ran smooth as silk but when I put it back toegther again biinding, took it apart again and it fell apart. That's when it came THIS close to an encounter with a sledgehammer.
Now it sits, maybe my LHS guy can put it all back together.
I leaened one thing. Don't EVER *%#* with locos. I JUST don't have the experience. I WISH to GOD they came with better manuals they SHOULD for all the money you pay for them.
I can't tell you how frustrated I am now.
By the way, I was describing everything exactly as I saw it at the time.
Paul_in_GA Rich, this is what I get when I don't have experenice. This infuriates me because all they give you is an exploded drawing. That's ridiculous. They don't even show the wires on it. I paid a lot for this loco and all I get is a crappy exploded view. I guess they assume a body of knowledge but how do you ge it? By the way, I was describing everything exactly as I saw it at the time.
That's why I don't blame you. As a newbie, that is all you have to go on.
But, it can be a valuable learning experience.
Whenever I purchase a new loco, the first thing that I do is to run it on a straight section of track. Does it move forward? Does it move backward? Do the lights work? Do they flicker? If all is well, then I run it around the layout in forward. Then, all the way around in reverse. Then I repeat the process at the highest speed. Then I repeat the process at the lowest speed. Forward and reverse.
Now let's say what happened to you, happens to me. I am running a Bachmann 2-8-0 in reverse at speed step 1 and it stops running on the curved turnout frog. It doesn't derail. It doesn't short. It stalls.
Why did it stall in reverse at slow speed? To me, whatever impeded the movement is either electrical or physical. It is either the turnout or the loco. But which is it?
I always start with the turnout. I need to be sure that it has electrical current flowing through it on every rail. Yeah, I have a couple of voltmeters and even a RRampMeter, but I go more primitive. I have a small 12 volt incandescent bulb with two wires attached to it. I place th exposed ends of the wires on the opposing rails on every section of that turnout, stock rails, point rails, every section. If the bulb continually lights up, the electrical conductivity is good. If the bulb fails to light at any point, I find out why. I add feeders to the end of every rail on the turnout. If one of the underside jumpers is loose, I fix it.
Once the electrical conductivity of the turnout is proven good, I test the power pickups on the loco. That is a little easier to do on a diesel than a steamer, but it can be done. Are the drivers powered and are they picking up power? Are the tender wheels powered and are they picking up power? Do any of the wheels fail to pick up power? If so, why? Loose harness? Loose pick up wire? Missing driver wiper?
Once all of the electrical issues are resolved, I consider physical issues that impede movement.
First, the turnout. Is the frog raised? A straight edge will answer that question. Is the frog too tight? Roll a box car through slowly by hand and see if it binds. Are the rails level and even? Make sure you have a stable base for the turnout. Are the guard rails too high? Are the edges of the guard rails too sharp instead of rounded? If so, file them.
Last, I check the loco for physical impediments. Are the wheels out of gauge? Are the flanges too deep? Do the coupler pins hang too low? Are the trucks too tight, especially on the tender? Are the trucks bent out of square shape? Does the loco and/or tender need weight?
So, in summary, a stall on a turnout is either electrical or physical. It is either the turnout or the loco.
You have to perform due diligence. Which is it? Electrical or physical? Turnout or loco?
Until you get that resolved, you will be all over the place looking for the problem.
Rich, I did all that, step-by-step. I ruled out everything on your list yesterday.
Where the problem lies is in the F&*%$^G exploded view. NO OTHER INFORMATION, NOT EVEN A WIRING DIAGRAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So without experience or knowledge or factory provided INFORMATION how was I supposed to know the main part of the loco had pickups on the wheels? I know now but it's a HELL of a way to learn.
I blame the manufacturers FIRST AND FOREMOST for the extremely limited information they give you.
I mean are you guys on this forum BORN with the knowledge on how to do all this?
I have no one to help, no one to teach, no one to guide, not one person near me to help me learn. I have to struggle every step of the way. How is this fun?
Paul_in_GA Rich, I did all that, step-by-step. I ruled out everything on your list yesterday.
But, you didn't.
You did not confirm with certainty that each section of the turnout had uninterrupted current. We still don't know that for sure.
You did not fully test the loco to confirm that all of the power pickups were working correctly and drawing current. We still are not sure if the drivers are powered and picking up power.
We still don't know why the loco stalls in reverse at the frog.
We don't know if both the forward and rear tender trucks rest on the dead frog.
You cannot blame the manufacturer or the hobby for inadequate instructions or diagrams.
If I had visited your layout yesterday, without any written materials, I could test the turnout and the loco for electrical impediments and for physicial impediments.
As I previously said, you have to be be able to hone in on the problem and only after it is identified can you begin to solve it.
Even now, when you hopefully get that loco put back together, you cannot be sure that it will back through the turnout at speed step 1 without stalling even if the driver wheels are powered.
Right now, we don't know if the problem is electrical or physical and we don't know if the problem is the turnout or the loco.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA Rich, I did all that, step-by-step. I ruled out everything on your list yesterday. But, you didn't. You did not confirm with certainty that each section of the turnout had uninterrupted current. We still don't know that for sure. You did not fully test the loco to confirm that all of the power pickups were working correctly and drawing current. We still are not sure if the drivers are powered and picking up power. We still don't know why the loco stalls in reverse at the frog. We don't know if both the forward and rear tender trucks rest on the dead frog. You cannot blame the manufacturer or the hobby for inadequate instructions or diagrams. If I had visited your layout yesterday, without any written materials, I could test the turnout and the loco for electrical impediments and for physicial impediments. As I previously said, you have to be be able to hone in on the problem and only after it is identified can you begin to solve it. Even now, when you hopefully get that loco put back together, you cannot be sure that it will back through the turnout at speed step 1 without stalling even if the driver wheels are powered. Right now, we don't know if the problem is electrical or physical and we don't know if the problem is the turnout or the loco. Rich
Rich, let me spell it out for you as clearly as I can.
1. When I used the alligator clips on the wheels BEFORE I opened the loco ONLY the tender truck wheels provided power. I touched the clips to ALL wheels in ALL combinations so I KNOW the loco's wheels were not powered.
2. When I opened the tender the loco's power plug was attached so I removed it and re-plugged and when I used the alligator clip routine ALL wheels, tender AND loco now had power.
3. I used a DVM to not only check voltage ALL around that turnout, the frog, the rails etc., I ALSO OHMED it out as I wiggled the track because it is not glued down but it IS soldered to a piece of flextrack so I can't remove it easily. It tested fine. Not ONE open on the meter.
4. I did not KNOW the loco had powered wheels on the loco itself. THAT is where the problem was.
5. The binding is the pickup power wire with the heat shrink on top of the flywheel, it needs to be on the side when I put it back together as I think it was binding because that heatshrink covered wire was hitting the flywheel. Because with it laying on its side with the shell off it had power on ALL wheels.
So the original problem was that plug not connected all the way and NOT KNOWING this loco was SUPPOSED to have powered pickups on the wheels of the loco itself.
If and when I get it back together I will bet anything it will be fine on that turnout. The loco's wheels were not getting power.
Is THAT clear enough for you or do we have to call each on the phone to make it clearer?
Sorry about the hostility but presently I am tired from being up all night screwing with this thing and frustrated at having to learn by the school of hard knocks.
Paul_in_GA And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this: First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels.
And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this:
First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels.
Paul, the drivers and rods have to go back into their bearing slots a certain way. You may have to find photos of the locomotive and match the orientation of all the rods and levers to the photo. Otherwise, you will get all sorts of problems, including binding. You can assemble a toy locomotive perfectly, gears nicely meshed, everything nice and tidy, but one lever angled the wrong way and the whole thing will lock up. Trust me, anyone who has ever taken out his steamer's drive to see what's going on has had to learn that it doesn't just cram back into position. Those pins mean a lever can sag past its resting point and want to behave in reverse.
Be patient. This is classroom time. You'll never forget what you learn here, even if it doesn't come naturally or quickly. Look at your exploded diagramme....the rods are probably shown as they should be. Or, find a photo on the web and fix it.
Crandell
richhotrain Paul_in_GA And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this: First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels. Based upon your statement above, Paul, with the loco off the track and power applied to the tender's pickup wheels, the driver wheels turned. So, something doesn't add up here. Rich
ARGH!!!
When I wrote that I was ONLY talking about the tender's wheels as I did not KNOW the loco's wheels were supposed to be powered. When I lifted the wheels I lifted just the front two of the tender then set all the tender's wheels down and then lifted the rear wheels of the tender and set the rear wheels of the tender back down. When I said I used the clips I touched ONLY the tender's wheels because I ASSUMED the main loco's wheels did not get power. I was under the impression that this loco was powered ONLY by the tender's wheels.
.
selector Paul, the drivers and rods have to go back into their bearing slots a certain way. You may have to find photos of the locomotive and match the orientation of all the rods and levers to the photo. Otherwise, you will get all sorts of problems, including binding. You can assemble a toy locomotive perfectly, gears nicely meshed, everything nice and tidy, but one lever angled the wrong way and the whole thing will lock up. Trust me, anyone who has ever taken out his steamer's drive to see what's going on has had to learn that it doesn't just cram back into position. Those pins mean a lever can sag past its resting point and want to behave in reverse. Be patient. This is classroom time. You'll never forget what you learn here, even if it doesn't come naturally or quickly. Look at your exploded diagramme....the rods are probably shown as they should be. Or, find a photo on the web and fix it. Crandell
Thanks. If that's the case it goes to my LHS for him to fix as he has decades of experience building brass locos from scratch. Thanks because that saves me an enormous amount of potential frustration today.
But it's odd that when I had it all back together after putting the rods back and all and laying it on it's side with the shell off it ran fine. It only binds when the shell was tightened to the chassis. I thought it was the heat shrinked wire binding against the flywheel.
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Paul_in_GA And I had also did what you mentioned. All the wheels are picking up power. I did this: First I tried your suggestion about lifting the wheels, was OK. Then I removed the loco from the track and clipped alligator clips to the rails then touched every wheel combination and they all make the wheels move so there's no dead wheels. Based upon your statement above, Paul, with the loco off the track and power applied to the tender's pickup wheels, the driver wheels turned. So, something doesn't add up here. Rich ARGH!!! When I wrote that I was ONLY talking about the tender's wheels as I did not KNOW the loco's wheels were supposed to be powered. When I lifted the wheels I lifted just the front two of the tender then set all the tender's wheels down and then lifted the rear wheels of the tender and set the rear wheels of the tender back down. When I said I used the clips I touched ONLY the tender's wheels because I ASSUMED the main loco's wheels did not get power. I was under the impression that this loco was powered ONLY by the tender's wheels.
Look, we can debate this until we are both blue in the face, but when you say that "they all make the wheels move", one can only infer that you are talking about the driver wheels which rotate when powered. The tender wheels only move as the loco pulls the tender down the track. The tender wheels don't "move" when they are powered.
richhotrain Look, we can debate this until we are both blue in the face, but when you say that "they all make the wheels move", one can only infer that you are talking about the driver wheels which rotate when powered. The tender wheels only move as the loco pulls the tender down the track. The tender wheels don't "move" when they are powered. Rich
Let me try to be even clearer.
I take the clips that are clipped to the rails.
I touch the opposing wheels on the tender, ONLY the tender, in every combination and the main loco's wheels moved, the driver wheels. So this means that the tender wheels are picking up power, sending that power to the driver wheels and the driver wheels move. I KNOW the tender's wheels do no move the loco, they are power pickups.
The MAIN wheels, the loco's DRIVER wheels WERE dead when power was applied to them but I thought this was normal. So the driver wheels ONLY moved when the tender's wheels touched the rails.
NOW, after replugging that plug I can get ALL the DRIVER wheels to move when I touch the clips to the DRIVER wheels.
See? I thought it was normal that the drivers didn't pick up power. I thought only the tender's wheels picked up power and sent it to the driver wheels.
Paul_in_GA richhotrain Look, we can debate this until we are both blue in the face, but when you say that "they all make the wheels move", one can only infer that you are talking about the driver wheels which rotate when powered. The tender wheels only move as the loco pulls the tender down the track. The tender wheels don't "move" when they are powered. Rich Let me try to be even clearer. I take the clips that are clipped to the rails. I touch the opposing wheels on the tender, ONLY the tender, in every combination and the main loco's wheels moved, the driver wheels. So this means that the tender wheels are picking up power, sending that power to the driver wheels and the driver wheels move. I KNOW the tender's wheels do no move the loco, they are power pickups. The MAIN wheels, the loco's DRIVER wheels WERE dead when power was applied to them but I thought this was normal. So the driver wheels ONLY moved when the tender's wheels touched the rails. NOW, after replugging that plug I can get ALL the DRIVER wheels to move when I touch the clips to the DRIVER wheels. See? I thought it was normal that the drivers didn't pick up power. I thought only the tender's wheels picked up power and sent it to the driver wheels.
Paul, you wrote that on page 3 of this thread on Saturday morning at 10:17 AM, long before you acted on Wayne's advice and checked the wiring harness and plug.
So, if your test was accurate, the driver wheels were receiving power from the beginning.
I am not trying to rub this in your face. I am trying, along with all of the others, to make you a better modeler and problem solver. You need to learn to test better and to accurately report the results of those tests so we can effectively help you.
Rich, from what I can gather, the drivers were picking up current all through this exercise, but it was not being delivered to the motor because of faulty or partially disconnected wiring. So touching clips to them wouldn't produce any connection because the problem lay beyond them. While most of us would assume that the drivers would be part of the current collection system, an inexperienced modeller might easily conclude, from the tests he performed, that the drivers weren't involved.
Basically, the problem of the stalling locomotive is probably solved. Now the problem is to get the thing back together and running properly. I don't run DCC, but otherwise I would offer to put it back together for Paul. With the shipping charges, though, he's better off going to the local guy - it shouldn't cost much, if anything, to get it reassembled.
Paul, you've learned quite a bit here, but an important part of applying that knowledge is patience. When things start to go bad, it's often better to walk away for a while. When you come back, often the situation looks less serious and you'll likely be thinking and seeing more clearly, too.
Paul_in_GA ........I have no one to help, no one to teach, no one to guide, not one person near me to help me learn. I have to struggle every step of the way. How is this fun?
........I have no one to help, no one to teach, no one to guide, not one person near me to help me learn. I have to struggle every step of the way. How is this fun?
doctorwayne Rich, from what I can gather, the drivers were picking up current all through this exercise, but it was not being delivered to the motor because of faulty or partially disconnected wiring. So touching clips to them wouldn't produce any connection because the problem lay beyond them. While most of us would assume that the drivers would be part of the current collection system, an inexperienced modeller might easily conclude, from the tests he performed, that the drivers weren't involved. Basically, the problem of the stalling locomotive is probably solved. Now the problem is to get the thing back together and running properly. I don't run DCC, but otherwise I would offer to put it back together for Paul. With the shipping charges, though, he's better off going to the local guy - it shouldn't cost much, if anything, to get it reassembled. Paul, you've learned quite a bit here, but an important part of applying that knowledge is patience. When things start to go bad, it's often better to walk away for a while. When you come back, often the situation looks less serious and you'll likely be thinking and seeing more clearly, too. Wayne
Thanks Wayne. Your assment is correct. Thanks for your offer. I have learned a lot. You're right, walking away and coming back later helps.
Hi!
As the good Doctor indicated, sometimes the best answer to a problem is to just "walk away".
I've been playing with trains for almost 60 years, and have had my share of problems (more?). Some were really nasty, particularly in getting used to DCC wiring/control/sensitivity, etc.
One thing I have found - and try really hard to keep in mind - is that every problem I've had has been resolved - sooner or later. AND, the really hard ones were resolved with the assistance of the good folks on this forum (you know who you are).
So like the man says, when it really is getting to you, pull the plug, shut the door, and go do something else. Come back in a day or two, do a post on the forum, and keep an open mind to the suggestions you get.
Most of all, be patient - for it is a hobby....................
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
mobilman44 Hi! As the good Doctor indicated, sometimes the best answer to a problem is to just "walk away". I've been playing with trains for almost 60 years, and have had my share of problems (more?). Some were really nasty, particularly in getting used to DCC wiring/control/sensitivity, etc. One thing I have found - and try really hard to keep in mind - is that every problem I've had has been resolved - sooner or later. AND, the really hard ones were resolved with the assistance of the good folks on this forum (you know who you are). So like the man says, when it really is getting to you, pull the plug, shut the door, and go do something else. Come back in a day or two, do a post on the forum, and keep an open mind to the suggestions you get. Most of all, be patient - for it is a hobby....................
Thanks mobilman, and Rich.
Here's where we're at now.
I decided to put it all back together. It was tedius but I did it. I then used the alligator clips and tested all the wheels and they all worked (the DRIVER wheels) usining power provided with the clips and t-pins on the other end. I discovered one main driver wheel was making intermittent contact but still moving. So I bent it a little closer to the wheel, still the same. So I am going to spray contact cleaner on it. ALL driver wheels now move when juice is applied to them. The loco runs perfectly and at a speed of 1 at that frog it just moves right through.
So here's my conclusion. The plug in the tender that provides power to the driver wheels wasn't seated properly. The loco was moving by picking up power from the tender wheels only which also drive the the driver wheels. So since the tender wheels are so close together it got stuck on that insulated part of the frog. When I wiggled the tender forward truck it would get contact and move. So I think also attributable to this was some flashing on the base of the frog that needed to be filed down which I did yesterday. It apparently lifted the forward tender truck JUST enough for it to lose electrical contact.
I tested it many many times on 1 through that frog and it works fine now.
Paul;
A happy wife is a happy world.
Rich C
ef3 yellowjacket Paul; A happy wife is a happy world. Rich C
I don't get it. My wife is happy, she's at the mall right now. I keep her very happy. I do all the cooking, I love to cook. I cook her special diabetic meals because she's a severely type 1 brittle diabetic so I take good care of her. We get along great. She's happy when I'm happy.