I think the responses to this thread are interesting in that it gives some insight into some of the ways we approach the hobby in general. Many folks obviously desire what I would call longer trains, whereas I prefer the way shorter trains look on a layout and the sense of distance they provide. And my layout is not small at 13 x 30!
Mainline railroading with 15 foot long trains is obviously very popular.
I need to find a one-horse short line support group somewhere.
- Douglas
BATMAN sandusky: I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out. Mike Okay I'll bite. What's the thinking behind the theory? I think that it's long enough to have sense of beginning, middle and end; that is, the entire train can't be seen at once. Of course, having a bunch of visual barriers would help, but I think I want to have a similar experience to watching a train pass at a grade crossing. It's also a reaction to all the Lionel sets that came with 4-5 cars. MS Brent
sandusky: I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out. Mike
I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out.
Mike
Okay I'll bite. What's the thinking behind the theory?
I think that it's long enough to have sense of beginning, middle and end; that is, the entire train can't be seen at once. Of course, having a bunch of visual barriers would help, but I think I want to have a similar experience to watching a train pass at a grade crossing. It's also a reaction to all the Lionel sets that came with 4-5 cars.
MS
Brent
tatans Short trains are not prototypical
Short trains are not prototypical
You can't really just drop statements like this and expect them to be completely right. There are numerous, non-irregular times that railroads would have very short trains. Even in the current day.
For example, this: http://www.lundsten.dk/railfan_pa/ble/pe04-32.html
There are specific reasons its like that, but its not actually that unusual. It wouldn't make sense to drag the 130 empties with them the 20 odd miles up that branch. And I'm pretty sure there's not anywhere to stash them while they exchange those cars.
I'm not sure of the frequency, but the Washington Post's paper comes into Alexandria on a barge. It gets transloaded to some captive boxcars to be taken a few miles to the printing plant. Between five and eight boxcars (and a caboose!) trundle along all the time.
sandusky I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out. Mike
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Of course it depends on the size of the layout. In my case, the sidings I could design into the layout determined the average train length. My first layout had a siding or passing track lenth of about 13' so that was the maximum length of most mainline trains. My second layout had a minium capacity of 18' storage tracks or passing siding so I could up my train length there.
I have found that for a home layout, HO train lengths of about 15 to 18 feet look pretty decent and you can run a fairly long passenger train like a full length CZ and still fit it in that length of siding. That would also allow you to run coal trains of about 25 cars, give or take. You can get away with the occasinal really long train as long as you can stuff most of your trains into a siding if you have a single track mainline. So 18' trains are kind of what I'm shooting for next time around, or close to that.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
My trains are usually 3 to 5 cars plus caboose. Yes, that's a little short, but I have a long curved 2% grade and that's all my 18 T and 20T shays can pull up the grade before losing traction. My trains are logging trains and freight trains and the cars are 36 and 40 footers. It makes the train about 2 feet long. My whole layout is 15 feet long, so a 2 foot train actually seems about right.
I also run a passenger train that consists of 4 pikers and an oscar. When I use my geared-down mogul, I can pull the whole thing up the grade. When I use my 2-4-4 Forney, I have to leave one Piker out of the train.
One thing I like about modeling the steam slide-valve era is that it's OK if trains are short - pound for pound old slide valve locos just don't have that much umph as compared to the piston-valve type. Because the locos and rolling stock are small and short, it makes for a better look on tighter-than-prototype-radius curves and it makes a small layout seem larger.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
I typically run on my layout about 2 to 4 engines and 20 to 30 cars on a train to run on the mainline. When I am doing local deliveries/ switching, 5 to 10 cars- depends on the industry.
tatans Short trains are not prototypical, if they are too short , your layout is too small, the first item in staging a layout is size of the layout to train size.
Short trains are not prototypical, if they are too short , your layout is too small, the first item in staging a layout is size of the layout to train size.
Short train can be prototypical - but they may not be typical :-)
Smile,Stein
I am in the beginning stages of building "the layout". So, I am giving a lot of thought to train length. I agree that your longest train should fit into the passing siding. Which still brings up the question of how long should that be. I am modeling the N&W in the 1955-57 era and am paying particular attention to the Pocahantos Division. So, my motive power will by Class A, Class Y, and Class J locomotives. I am looking at about 15-17 cars as my maximum number. Also, since I will have the Powhattan Arrow and Pocahantos passenger trains with about 5-6 cars, I looked at there length, too.
Craig North Carolina
For now I'm planning around 2 -2.5 feet including locomotive and caboose. I'm starting of small in N scale, mainly branchline traffic..
I didn't decide on how long an "average" train is because average doesn't matter.
I set a maximum train length at 8 ft due to siding length.
Each class of engine has a maximum number of cars it can haul (currently set at 10 cars).
Train length is however many the yard has switched up to the maximum engine rating.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
We like to keep 4 trains, 2 eastbound and 2 westbound, with 20 to 30 cars each running constantly on our 26'x26' layout. We can run our locals in between these trains when road switching. The 3 yards have long enough leads that we can avoid interference with the mainline trains. We used to run single trains with more cars on each mainline, but with DCC, we can regulate the individual speed of the trains and rarely have a mishap. We actually have a chart giving a throttle speed number for each loco or lashup to keep things balanced. My 11 year old son and I know without looking, but when we have guests, we can easily get them running without too much trouble. We actually have only 2 passing sidings one of which is part of our coal mine branch, and the other is part of the yard lead for Bradford yard. you can duck into these temporarily, but they must generally remain clear for the switching crews. the mine lead can also be used as a pusher siding when we have a train that requires help up the hill. That's mostly when we have just one steam locomotive on the head end.
I designed my mainline sidings to accommodate trains of 30 cars, three locomotives and a caboose. (On my layout, all trains are properly punctuated...) My A/D tracks in the yard can hold up to around 25 cars, so I know right away when I'm putting a train together whether it will "fit".
The other limiting factor is the helix into west staging, which can be run successfully with about 25 cars pulled by 2-3 locos. If something goes down in the hole longer than that, I've got a helper stationed below decks to render a little assistance as needed.
Working in N scale, I've got some nice long runs of main that look 'right' with a 25 car train. Certainly not the 100 car trains of the prototype, but I don't have 180 miles of track, either. Apart from the purely operational aspects of siding length and grades, train length should be nominally proportional to the scenery. There's lot's of tricks like view blocks, hidden trackage and levels that can make the eye believe the train is longer than it actually is.
That was a 20 some odd car train passing along about 8' of track.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
As far as passing sidings, I think many folks would work backwards - that is, determine what size trains they wanted to operate, and design passing sidings accordingly. You could also look at like a maximum wayfreight size - that is, if you were to run a wayfreight that switched every industry on your railroad, how many cars would it be?? If you build the layout to accomodate that size train - given that unless you have a small layout, you probably wouldn't be switching every industry with one train - you'll have built the layout with long enough sidings to work and look right without seeming unrealistically "packed" with trains just barely clearing the mainline.
Train length really depends on what you model and how the size of the layout. I belong to a small operating group. One layout is based on the Rio Grande in the 80's and is housed in a mobile home. Mainline trains are normally 40 + cars in HO. Another layout is HUGE, with double track main over 600 feet long. Once again 40+ car trains are the norm. A 3rd is only 20 x 20 and features more switching and shorter trains. Long trains in HO are very impressive, especially when the track work is good enough to push that 40 car train around the pike!
I like to sit back with two trains plying their way around the layout. Right now I have a 2-10-4 pulling 24 freight cars. It pulls them up my long climb without too much trouble. The other is 11 Rapido coaches being pulled by two Trainmasters.
If I use more than one engine on a freight train, it is 30 cars at most usually. That way I can find a parking space to accommodate it.
I didn't think that a train longer than 9 cars would look good on my layout. But 9 cars was even too long for the length of runaround I wanted to have, which was a function of the space in between the towns. So 7 cars was decided as the limit. Its a good looking length for a single GP38, MP15, or a 1st generation 4-axle diesel to pull. I use 4-5 cars for the SW9's and S-4's.
Since my layout was large enough to accommodate my desire, I didn't have to compromise. I was able to design my plan as I wanted.
There was a very good article on that question in the 2008 Model Railroad Planning. It might still be available through the website, and you could probably get it through CS.
Hope this helps,
sfb
My decision was made for me by my prototype. When I finally got title to the `last in this lifetime' layour space I adjusted the master plan to fit. Through freights are 20 cars and a 2-8-2 (changing to a 6-axle catenary motor, or vice-versa.) Locals run 12 cars and either a six-coupled steamer (2-6-0, 2-6-2 or possibly 2-6-4T) or a four (driving) axle motor. A few freights may be powered by brand-new diesel-hydraulics - either 1200 hp DD13 class B-B or 2000 hp DD51 class B-2-B. A high-tonnage train that has to stop at Haruyama will get a pusher for the 25/1000 upgrade to Tomikawa - either a C12 class 2-6-2 or a DD13.
Staging tracks, passing sidings, yard tracks - all were sized to fit that observed prototype train length. In operation, trains may be shorter - but they will never be longer.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
How do you decide how long your average trains should be?
On my layout, this is decided by several factors.
1. One is the size of the layout. I can't see running a train that takes up a lot of mainline. (This is only a personal preference for me because I don't think really long trains look right on my layout.)
2. Grades play a small role in that I try to use one locomotive per train. If the train won't make it up the hill with one loco, it may be too long.
3. The biggest factor is the length of the passing sidings. I want an average train to fit in a passing siding so another one can pass it without having to resort to a saw-by.
I will also say that all of these factors played a role in designing my layout and it's track plan, as did the time frame I model and the equipment used.
So, how do you determine the average length of the trains that you run on your layout?
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.