How do you decide how long your average trains should be?
On my layout, this is decided by several factors.
1. One is the size of the layout. I can't see running a train that takes up a lot of mainline. (This is only a personal preference for me because I don't think really long trains look right on my layout.)
2. Grades play a small role in that I try to use one locomotive per train. If the train won't make it up the hill with one loco, it may be too long.
3. The biggest factor is the length of the passing sidings. I want an average train to fit in a passing siding so another one can pass it without having to resort to a saw-by.
I will also say that all of these factors played a role in designing my layout and it's track plan, as did the time frame I model and the equipment used.
So, how do you determine the average length of the trains that you run on your layout?
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
My decision was made for me by my prototype. When I finally got title to the `last in this lifetime' layour space I adjusted the master plan to fit. Through freights are 20 cars and a 2-8-2 (changing to a 6-axle catenary motor, or vice-versa.) Locals run 12 cars and either a six-coupled steamer (2-6-0, 2-6-2 or possibly 2-6-4T) or a four (driving) axle motor. A few freights may be powered by brand-new diesel-hydraulics - either 1200 hp DD13 class B-B or 2000 hp DD51 class B-2-B. A high-tonnage train that has to stop at Haruyama will get a pusher for the 25/1000 upgrade to Tomikawa - either a C12 class 2-6-2 or a DD13.
Staging tracks, passing sidings, yard tracks - all were sized to fit that observed prototype train length. In operation, trains may be shorter - but they will never be longer.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
There was a very good article on that question in the 2008 Model Railroad Planning. It might still be available through the website, and you could probably get it through CS.
Hope this helps,
sfb
I didn't think that a train longer than 9 cars would look good on my layout. But 9 cars was even too long for the length of runaround I wanted to have, which was a function of the space in between the towns. So 7 cars was decided as the limit. Its a good looking length for a single GP38, MP15, or a 1st generation 4-axle diesel to pull. I use 4-5 cars for the SW9's and S-4's.
Since my layout was large enough to accommodate my desire, I didn't have to compromise. I was able to design my plan as I wanted.
- Douglas
I like to sit back with two trains plying their way around the layout. Right now I have a 2-10-4 pulling 24 freight cars. It pulls them up my long climb without too much trouble. The other is 11 Rapido coaches being pulled by two Trainmasters.
If I use more than one engine on a freight train, it is 30 cars at most usually. That way I can find a parking space to accommodate it.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Train length really depends on what you model and how the size of the layout. I belong to a small operating group. One layout is based on the Rio Grande in the 80's and is housed in a mobile home. Mainline trains are normally 40 + cars in HO. Another layout is HUGE, with double track main over 600 feet long. Once again 40+ car trains are the norm. A 3rd is only 20 x 20 and features more switching and shorter trains. Long trains in HO are very impressive, especially when the track work is good enough to push that 40 car train around the pike!
As far as passing sidings, I think many folks would work backwards - that is, determine what size trains they wanted to operate, and design passing sidings accordingly. You could also look at like a maximum wayfreight size - that is, if you were to run a wayfreight that switched every industry on your railroad, how many cars would it be?? If you build the layout to accomodate that size train - given that unless you have a small layout, you probably wouldn't be switching every industry with one train - you'll have built the layout with long enough sidings to work and look right without seeming unrealistically "packed" with trains just barely clearing the mainline.
I designed my mainline sidings to accommodate trains of 30 cars, three locomotives and a caboose. (On my layout, all trains are properly punctuated...) My A/D tracks in the yard can hold up to around 25 cars, so I know right away when I'm putting a train together whether it will "fit".
The other limiting factor is the helix into west staging, which can be run successfully with about 25 cars pulled by 2-3 locos. If something goes down in the hole longer than that, I've got a helper stationed below decks to render a little assistance as needed.
Working in N scale, I've got some nice long runs of main that look 'right' with a 25 car train. Certainly not the 100 car trains of the prototype, but I don't have 180 miles of track, either. Apart from the purely operational aspects of siding length and grades, train length should be nominally proportional to the scenery. There's lot's of tricks like view blocks, hidden trackage and levels that can make the eye believe the train is longer than it actually is.
That was a 20 some odd car train passing along about 8' of track.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
We like to keep 4 trains, 2 eastbound and 2 westbound, with 20 to 30 cars each running constantly on our 26'x26' layout. We can run our locals in between these trains when road switching. The 3 yards have long enough leads that we can avoid interference with the mainline trains. We used to run single trains with more cars on each mainline, but with DCC, we can regulate the individual speed of the trains and rarely have a mishap. We actually have a chart giving a throttle speed number for each loco or lashup to keep things balanced. My 11 year old son and I know without looking, but when we have guests, we can easily get them running without too much trouble. We actually have only 2 passing sidings one of which is part of our coal mine branch, and the other is part of the yard lead for Bradford yard. you can duck into these temporarily, but they must generally remain clear for the switching crews. the mine lead can also be used as a pusher siding when we have a train that requires help up the hill. That's mostly when we have just one steam locomotive on the head end.
I didn't decide on how long an "average" train is because average doesn't matter.
I set a maximum train length at 8 ft due to siding length.
Each class of engine has a maximum number of cars it can haul (currently set at 10 cars).
Train length is however many the yard has switched up to the maximum engine rating.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
For now I'm planning around 2 -2.5 feet including locomotive and caboose. I'm starting of small in N scale, mainly branchline traffic..
I am in the beginning stages of building "the layout". So, I am giving a lot of thought to train length. I agree that your longest train should fit into the passing siding. Which still brings up the question of how long should that be. I am modeling the N&W in the 1955-57 era and am paying particular attention to the Pocahantos Division. So, my motive power will by Class A, Class Y, and Class J locomotives. I am looking at about 15-17 cars as my maximum number. Also, since I will have the Powhattan Arrow and Pocahantos passenger trains with about 5-6 cars, I looked at there length, too.
Craig North Carolina
Short trains are not prototypical, if they are too short , your layout is too small, the first item in staging a layout is size of the layout to train size.
tatans Short trains are not prototypical, if they are too short , your layout is too small, the first item in staging a layout is size of the layout to train size.
Short train can be prototypical - but they may not be typical :-)
Smile,Stein
I typically run on my layout about 2 to 4 engines and 20 to 30 cars on a train to run on the mainline. When I am doing local deliveries/ switching, 5 to 10 cars- depends on the industry.
My trains are usually 3 to 5 cars plus caboose. Yes, that's a little short, but I have a long curved 2% grade and that's all my 18 T and 20T shays can pull up the grade before losing traction. My trains are logging trains and freight trains and the cars are 36 and 40 footers. It makes the train about 2 feet long. My whole layout is 15 feet long, so a 2 foot train actually seems about right.
I also run a passenger train that consists of 4 pikers and an oscar. When I use my geared-down mogul, I can pull the whole thing up the grade. When I use my 2-4-4 Forney, I have to leave one Piker out of the train.
One thing I like about modeling the steam slide-valve era is that it's OK if trains are short - pound for pound old slide valve locos just don't have that much umph as compared to the piston-valve type. Because the locos and rolling stock are small and short, it makes for a better look on tighter-than-prototype-radius curves and it makes a small layout seem larger.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Of course it depends on the size of the layout. In my case, the sidings I could design into the layout determined the average train length. My first layout had a siding or passing track lenth of about 13' so that was the maximum length of most mainline trains. My second layout had a minium capacity of 18' storage tracks or passing siding so I could up my train length there.
I have found that for a home layout, HO train lengths of about 15 to 18 feet look pretty decent and you can run a fairly long passenger train like a full length CZ and still fit it in that length of siding. That would also allow you to run coal trains of about 25 cars, give or take. You can get away with the occasinal really long train as long as you can stuff most of your trains into a siding if you have a single track mainline. So 18' trains are kind of what I'm shooting for next time around, or close to that.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out.
Mike
sandusky I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out. Mike
Okay I'll bite. What's the thinking behind the theory?
tatans Short trains are not prototypical
Short trains are not prototypical
You can't really just drop statements like this and expect them to be completely right. There are numerous, non-irregular times that railroads would have very short trains. Even in the current day.
For example, this: http://www.lundsten.dk/railfan_pa/ble/pe04-32.html
There are specific reasons its like that, but its not actually that unusual. It wouldn't make sense to drag the 130 empties with them the 20 odd miles up that branch. And I'm pretty sure there's not anywhere to stash them while they exchange those cars.
I'm not sure of the frequency, but the Washington Post's paper comes into Alexandria on a barge. It gets transloaded to some captive boxcars to be taken a few miles to the printing plant. Between five and eight boxcars (and a caboose!) trundle along all the time.
BATMAN sandusky: I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out. Mike Okay I'll bite. What's the thinking behind the theory? I think that it's long enough to have sense of beginning, middle and end; that is, the entire train can't be seen at once. Of course, having a bunch of visual barriers would help, but I think I want to have a similar experience to watching a train pass at a grade crossing. It's also a reaction to all the Lionel sets that came with 4-5 cars. MS Brent
sandusky: I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out. Mike
I think that it's long enough to have sense of beginning, middle and end; that is, the entire train can't be seen at once. Of course, having a bunch of visual barriers would help, but I think I want to have a similar experience to watching a train pass at a grade crossing. It's also a reaction to all the Lionel sets that came with 4-5 cars.
MS
I think the responses to this thread are interesting in that it gives some insight into some of the ways we approach the hobby in general. Many folks obviously desire what I would call longer trains, whereas I prefer the way shorter trains look on a layout and the sense of distance they provide. And my layout is not small at 13 x 30!
Mainline railroading with 15 foot long trains is obviously very popular.
I need to find a one-horse short line support group somewhere.
I like to run one of my Articulated's sometimes with a double header, Mike in behind pulling 50-60 empty ore cars.
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5959
If one could roll back the hands of time... They would be waiting for the next train into the future. A. H. Francey 1921-2007
When running ops at the club trains can be anywhere from a few cars long to a couple of dozen. If running a local you really don't want the train too long.
Springfield PA
News flash: Not everyone has a giant basement to fill with trains. We have to live within our means. The size of the space available constrains the length of train. Then operational considerations and visual appeal on that layout constrain it even more. Every layout is different and what looks good on one won't on another.
Doughless I need to find a one-horse short line support group somewhere.
I'll be there as well. My inspiration was the branch where I grew up. Trains were a single switcher (RS-1 typically) with 3-4 cars and caboose. Went through a period when I had the room and was modeling n-scale where I was running 3-4 SD-40s and 30 car trains. Over time I found that boring and after a move switched back to HO, even though I had less room. My current layout can handle about a 5 car train without appearing overloaded.
For the heck of it, I have put a couple of SDs and a 20 car train on the line just to see what happened. Even without considering that it was too large for my sidings, it visually over powered the layout. It actually made the towns and layout look smaller. Partly I think it's a trick of the mind. My little 5 car train leaves point A and goes to point B. In between it covers some distance. When looking you see open country, the train, then more country so it seems like it's going somewhere. But when I put the larger train on there, instead of looking like it was covering some miles between towns, it looked like I was standing in one spot train watching as a long train rolled by. So I do think that is part of what drives our choices in train lenght -- what is the effect we're after?
My trains tend to fall between a protoypical consist, and whether a fair number of engines can pull it. Case in point, I;m modelling the James Whitcomb RIley circe 53, but with only 4 coaches. the RIley can go up to 8, plus a diner, through sleeper from the Southern, a combine, and an observation, as well as a fair mix of Head-end. But, the pics I;ve seen have been a signle Hudson, whixh is happy enough with the train it's got. Now, I know RIley did doublehead with some frequency, so someday I just might.
Otherwise, I tend to veiw my trains from a pictguresque angle. Usually, from a modelled street or overpass, so I cannot see the whole train to realize it fills the entire layout. Rarely do I find myself adiring the layout from an overview. I may see it that way a lot, but then I'm usually not watching the trains themselves.
That being said, most of my modle layout will be shortline trains. I've grown their buisness from one train to up to three, but that's on a good day. Per a 1954 PRR timetable, CMPA trains operating the Madison Incline may be no longer than 12 cars coming UP, or 10 cars coming DOWN. Reasoning, the downhill grade is steep enough that any more is pushing the braking capacity of the lead engine, and besides that, any more cars i just stupid on a 5.89% grade. Ironically, the Madison Hill has another rule. A MINIMUM length of two cars to assure proper braking capability fo the train. Upgrade, train length wil be whatever gets the job done. Most of the time, it won't peak past 15, but CMPA will be doing fleet storage work, so it's possible come New Car season, ~25 cars of Autoracks or Grain Hoppers or what-have you will be snaking their way up to the interchange with Chessie to go to work. I fiigure it should be two to three times the length of a normal CMPA train to give the impression of a monster train, at least for a 20mi shortline.
Yes, I'm also a weirdo who wants a large basement so he doesn't have to selectively compress the CMPA as much, and do a staging loop for Chessie trains to interfere with traffic, and take cars away to staging. Chessie traisn through there will likely be in the 20car range.
-Morgan
I would be willing to bet that my short trains are more prototypical than your long trains.
Please tell us what era and train size you are running on your layout.
gandydancer19 How do you decide how long your average trains should be? So, how do you determine the average length of the trains that you run on your layout?
To me, normal longest train length is one of the most important inputs into a layout design. Normal longest train length directly impacts:
In each of these instances, one has to think long and hard about making any of these less than a normal longest train long. There are instances where any of these can be less than the longest train length, but it must be considered whether or not an operational bottleneck has been created by making the track too short. Conversely, the shortest of these in an existing layout is usually going to drive the most common longest train length to avoid bottle-necking operations.
As has been pointed out, planning for longer trains also requires looking at raising the minimum radius to avoid stringlining, and keeping grades reasonable.
As far as prototype goes, I find it very enlightening to study the tonnage ratings for various locomotives, and the normal trains that were operated over segments of the narrow gauge D&RG and Northwest Pacific. Very seldom did I see more than 18 car trains as possible or practical with the locomotives on hand in 1900 - and often trains that long would be double-headed.
In model railroading, switching more than a 10 car train tends to be more time-consuming and less reliable than one might desires. Running around a 20+ car train for a switching move at scale speeds might be prototypical, but can be a little boring operating on a model layout.
With the very small layouts I have been blessed with, there are a couple of other rules of thumbs to apply. On an oval on a rectangular layout, passing sidings and train length generally work best when limited to the remaining long side distance after the turnback curves are subtracted. In other words, on a 4x8 with 18" radius curves, the longest useful train is 96"-40"=56". In transition era HO, that means 7 cars, caboose, and smallish engine. Even then, the train will probably be too big to fit on the passing sidings. But the siding can be used for runaround moves.
Using the turnback curves as passing sidings or runarounds on 4x8s or smaller is problemmatic for switching. Uncoupling and coupling on 18" radius curves with any common method just isn't all that reliable, in my experience. But there are plenty of track plans drawn that way!
On a shelf layout, Iain Rice postulates maximum train length should be between 1/4 and 1/3 the length of the shelf. I find keeping to 1/4 or less of the shelf length to be much more satisfying, visually and operationally. The 1/3 shelf length feels more like a switching puzzle.
These 2 rules of thumb can lead to very short trains. On my HOn3 logging line, which is a U shelf layout (total 20ft of shelf divided into 4 scenes), the switchback tails are 20" long. This is 3 cars plus the engine, as long as the engine is a tank or short geared lokie. Which ties in well with the 6% average grade. The sawmill scene has 2 staging tracks which are 2 cars each, to serve as a staged version of "loads in, empties out". The log landing and log dump are similarly set up for 2 car cuts. The marshalling area and runaround track for the sawmill is also based on handling a train with 2 car cuts. The lumber loading dock can hold 5 cars, but the lumber schooner is only 90ft. Again, a 2 car cut can be handled at the dock and load simultaneously. Result is I get a 5 car train - 2 cuts plus caboose - on the main. This has to be doubled to use the switchback down to or up from the dock.
Bottom line is an operational scheme, train lengths, and track lengths that all work together.
just my thoughts and choices
Fred W
sandusky BATMAN: sandusky: I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out. Mike Okay I'll bite. What's the thinking behind the theory? I think that it's long enough to have sense of beginning, middle and end; that is, the entire train can't be seen at once. Of course, having a bunch of visual barriers would help, but I think I want to have a similar experience to watching a train pass at a grade crossing. It's also a reaction to all the Lionel sets that came with 4-5 cars. MS Brent
BATMAN: sandusky: I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out. Mike Okay I'll bite. What's the thinking behind the theory? I think that it's long enough to have sense of beginning, middle and end; that is, the entire train can't be seen at once. Of course, having a bunch of visual barriers would help, but I think I want to have a similar experience to watching a train pass at a grade crossing. It's also a reaction to all the Lionel sets that came with 4-5 cars. MS Brent
Really? Train length of 16 feet? And you don't have a layout yet? Good luck with that. I agree that longer trains are fun to watch, but the practical reality most of us face is that there's only so much space to work with.
I could theoretically run a train of 16' on my N scale layout, but it would look stupid doing it. It would also quickly succumb to the laws of gravity and other physics, string-lining and dumping cars all over the ground.
Rather than assign an arbitrary train length, I think it's important to work with the idea of proportion.
But then again, since I'm working in N scale, I can easily run a train that's about 8 feet long, about the same number of cars as your 16' long HO train... so really, it's another clear demonstration that N scale is superior when it comes to showing a train in a more realistic setting, even in a limited layout space!
There, I've run circles round you logically!