Running / Operations: Train Length?

[sandusky]

Oh, intercourse the layout!!!!

[sandusky]

With (limited) apologies to Monty P.

MS

[Texas Zepher]

tatans

Short trains are not prototypical, if they are too short , your layout is too small,  the first item in staging a layout is size of the layout to train size.

Huh?  There is a daily train here in Denver over to the industries along the west side of the Platte river.  It is at MOST 12 cars.  Often only 6.  The UP Sunday Brighton train runs 8-20 cars.  The Santa Fe daily  trains #67 & #68 were often only two cars, one freight and the combine.  The Wichita Frisco tri-weekly.  The N&W virginia creeper (Abingdon branch).  The Santa Fe every other day Bristol branch train.  Those are just what I can cite.  I've seen hundreds of "short" real trains that I don't know the ID of.

[wm3798]

Gold Star, Sandusky... I'm glad someone around here is paying attention!

Now it's time to end this thread, as it's become unnecessarily silly!

Lee

[Flashwave]

wm3798

sandusky:

 

BATMAN:

 

 

sandusky:

I decided one day that I didn't think you could really get the feel of mainline operations with trains of less than 16 feet in length (loco/locos and caboose not included). I use this for both HO and O scale 2r. As I don't have a layout up yet, I've yet to test this theory out.

Mike

 

 

Okay I'll bite. What's the thinking behind the theory?

 I think that it's long enough to have sense of beginning, middle and end; that is, the entire train can't be seen at once. Of course, having a bunch of visual barriers would help, but I think I want to have a similar experience to watching a train pass at a grade crossing. It's also a reaction to all the Lionel sets that came with 4-5 cars.

MS

                                       Brent

 

 

 

Really?  Train length of 16 feet?  And you don't have a layout yet?  Good luck with that.  I agree that longer trains are fun to watch, but the practical reality most of us face is that there's only so much space to work with.

I could theoretically run a train of 16' on my N scale layout, but it would look stupid doing it.  It would also quickly succumb to the laws of gravity and other physics, string-lining and dumping cars all over the ground.

Rather than assign an arbitrary train length, I think it's important to work with the idea of proportion.

But then again, since I'm working in N scale, I can easily run a train that's about 8 feet long, about the same number of cars as your 16' long HO train... so really, it's another clear demonstration that N scale is superior when it comes to showing a train in a more realistic setting, even in a limited layout space! 

There, I've run circles round you logically!

Lee

Lee, you're right in N regarding train lengths vs actual feet, but in HO, 16ft is only 15 coaches (one Walthers/Rapido car being 83ft, rounded up to 1 ft long, plus a locomotive), or in the neighborhood of 25-thirty cars, which is not THAT unreasonable for a larger but fairly achieveable layout. Now the $64 question, is a thirty car freight train  accurate for your setting. A 15car passenger train seems like it could be large, but I can kill ten cars with an NYC train that never went beyond Indiana borders except to hit CHI and Cinncy Union Stations, on it's OFF season.

And you wanna talk logic? Okay, in HO, I can put more weight and your model into my trains to reduce stringlining, plus a larger motor that can overcome drag more effectively. Also, HO feels more right to me. One objective, and one subjective argument make me winner.

 

[richhotrain]

The length of my freight trains is dictated by the length of my sidings.

The length of my passenger trains is dictated by the length of my station platforms.

Rich

[shayfan84325]

Wouldn’t it be most logical to establish train length like the 1:1 railroads do?  In Cache Valley, Utah there is a UP branch that serves about 20 (estimated) industrial facilities.  The daily local freight is usually about 5 cars pulled by a small (8 wheel) diesel.  The train is made up of the right number of cars to satisfy the orders for that day; they don’t add extra cars just to make it look better

 

On my layout the railroad has 5 customers; to me it makes sense to assemble a train that has a few empty cars of the types that each customer requires, and a few that are loaded with materials that those plants have ordered, then venture around the layout spotting cars and picking up the loaded ones.  At the end of the run, the entire train is different from the one that departed, and it is probably slightly longer or shorter.

 

I also run a few log-laden cars - those are more like unit trains; they run from the logging camp to the sawmill, carrying nothing but logs.  The length of these is determined by the amount of weight that a small shay can pull up a grade.  My passenger trains are determined by ticket sales (when ticket sales are really slow I run the railbus).

 

When it comes to things like passing sidings, aren’t their lengths determined more by terrain and easements than by length of train?  It seems to me that a 1:1 railroad would make them as long as possible and then limit the length of trains to fit.  On my layout, that’s the approach that I’ve taken – my sidings are as long as I can make fit in the space, then I limit my trains to that length.  Interestingly, they are just right, considering the small number of customers that my railroad serves.

[Mike Kieran]

Train length is determined by the needs of the customer and the railroads.

On my layout, the customers receive between 2-6 cars inbound and 1-3 cars outbound on a bi-weekly schedule (The railroad operates on Monday and Thursday).That means 1-3 cars inbound and 1-2 cars outbound for the day that it's operated.

It's a former branch line with interchange only on one end. That said, It's a ludicrous statement to say that a train with less than 16 cars is not prototypical. The Baltimore and Annapolis Railroad often ran their trains with just an engine and a box car (a box car load of paper for a newspaper plant) on an as needed basis.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1967702

The beauty of railroading, both real and model is the rainbow of operations and equipment. That said, if you don't like short trains, don't run them or look at them. If you don't like long trains, don't run them or look at them. Freedom is beautiful baby.

[wm3798]

But Flashwave, if you're working in a fairly typical model railroad environment, say a 12 x 14 room (which is pretty generous if you live with other human beings) your 16' long train would never have the opportunity to stretch out on a tangent, nor would it ever be able to reach track speed owing to the fact that the engine is passing one town while the rear end is still in the yard.  And God forbid you are one of those poor souls struggling to express yourself on a 4x8...

There's no question that train length in the real world is predicated on the business of the thing, but us modelers are generally striving for a less literal interpretation.  Just as our yards have to be smaller, our industries more compact, and our towns closer together, it's no crime to abbreviate the length of your trains.

Lee

 

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

I have either "operating sessions" or "running sessions". 

Running sessions allow a variety of train lengths and various equipment. 

Operating sessions are intended to simulate a real railroad transportation company. Freight moving from industries in city A must be delivered to other industries in City B.

A road train stops in CIty A and sets off cars for its industries and picks up cars for City B and beyond. Prior to arrival in CIty A, a local train has switched cars at industries in town. After the road train departs City A, the local train is busy delivering inbound cars.

As the road train moves into City B, similar work is performed with its local train.

My branch line has short trains which typically have only two boxcars. 

The local trains are small trains, and the road train is much longer. The actual length depends on the work to be performed. However, this is a model railroad, and train sizes are restricted to manageable sizes.

My passenger trains tend to be longer in my running sessions than in the operating sessions. I will run a transcontinental train during a running session. I will run a smaller local passenger train in operating session, and I will assume it connects with transcontinental trains in the terminating city.  

 

[Proto87 2011]

Personally, I think that the Length of the train should be somewhere near half the average length of all the passing spurs. Hope it helps!

[riogrande5761]

wm3798

But Flashwave, if you're working in a fairly typical model railroad environment, say a 12 x 14 room (which is pretty generous if you live with other human beings) your 16' long train would never have the opportunity to stretch out on a tangent, nor would it ever be able to reach track speed owing to the fact that the engine is passing one town while the rear end is still in the yard.  7

.....

 it's no crime to abbreviate the length of your trains.

Lee

My last layout was 14 x 24' and it had minimum passing length of 18' feet long trains designed in.  That included a hidden 10 track staging yard with storage capacity between 18-24', one siding of 18' and a yard with 18-20' passing capacity.  There wasn't a lot of open single track line but one stretch between the yard and the siding, and a small stretch after.  Not necessarly a lot of room to stretch legs but certainly capacity to run stage and run 8 to 10 long trains.

No one has to be ashamed of a short train. Whatever you like to run, and if you enjoy it, great!

[Flashwave]

wm3798

But Flashwave, if you're working in a fairly typical model railroad environment, say a 12 x 14 room (which is pretty generous if you live with other human beings) your 16' long train would never have the opportunity to stretch out on a tangent, nor would it ever be able to reach track speed owing to the fact that the engine is passing one town while the rear end is still in the yard.  And God forbid you are one of those poor souls struggling to express yourself on a 4x8... 

Right, but even on something pushing 40', there's only a few seconds between stations. Unless you're running a Shay, in which case the Dispatcher will hate you when you hit single track... Not that I've been there...

I;ve posted this before, but I actually prefer the 12" view  of the layout versus the 12' foot.  
Yes, that train is in three towns on the layout. Do you see them in the first picture? The second? Granted, it's on the club layout (45'x60') and not the common size home layout, but the princupal is the same. I see
not the above, and it's acieveable on any layout of any size. Maybe not 16 on a 4x8, but a 10 is comperable. For long trains, the tail only needs to drop out of sight before the engine re-appears. Headlight glow can be cropped out of video, or ignored. I've even put my chin on the layout just to watch a train go by. Not on someone else's mind you, but the club's for sure. If I'm doing an ops session, I suppose I can see where a 16ft train is a pain, but I don't see me operating with a 16ft train on anything.  Trains of those sizes are generally reserved for looks. (See Garry's postabove)

At this point, we enter the "run trains to run trains, or run trains to operate" argument. The coal train above was assembled because a freeind and I wanted to see two Big Boys and a Challenger do what they are meant to do. Not because I needed to move 70 hopper cars from the mine to the powerplant. That job is handled by 10-12 car trains on the club layout, for no other reaosn than that's the maximum accepting capacity of the power plant sidings and too many more begins to be problematic for the grade up into the mine.  Can I do 70 cars with a Mid Train Challenger on a 4x8? No, but I can probably do 30-40 depending on the trackplan. Yes, that's HO. figuring 6" a car, and 18" for a locomotive. Practical for a 4x8 operation? No. Reasonably long enough to actually look like a Cheyanne-bound Big Boy pulling it's weight, not using a lion to hunt a mouse? Sure is. And even a basic oval, I don't see it kissing it's tail. An over-under could even go 45 cars.  

Which is why I want to do the Ringling Circus Train, and the full American Freedom Train. They run for looks, very rarely will I be breaking them down for shows. One, because there isn't a yard local to me big enough to handle it, two because that's just not what they are for.

[Flashwave]

shayfan84325

Wouldn’t it be most logical to establish train length like the 1:1 railroads do?  In Cache Valley, Utah there is a UP branch that serves about 20 (estimated) industrial facilities.  The daily local freight is usually about 5 cars pulled by a small (8 wheel) diesel.  The train is made up of the right number of cars to satisfy the orders for that day; they don’t add extra cars just to make it look better

 

On my layout the railroad has 5 customers; to me it makes sense to assemble a train that has a few empty cars of the types that each customer requires, and a few that are loaded with materials that those plants have ordered, then venture around the layout spotting cars and picking up the loaded ones.  At the end of the run, the entire train is different from the one that departed, and it is probably slightly longer or shorter.

 

I also run a few log-laden cars - those are more like unit trains; they run from the logging camp to the sawmill, carrying nothing but logs.  The length of these is determined by the amount of weight that a small shay can pull up a grade.  My passenger trains are determined by ticket sales (when ticket sales are really slow I run the railbus).

 

When it comes to things like passing sidings, aren’t their lengths determined more by terrain and easements than by length of train?  It seems to me that a 1:1 railroad would make them as long as possible and then limit the length of trains to fit.  On my layout, that’s the approach that I’ve taken – my sidings are as long as I can make fit in the space, then I limit my trains to that length.  Interestingly, they are just right, considering the small number of customers that my railroad serves.

Logical. When I build the Madison Railroad, the "ideal" layout, sidings will be handled ina a similar way, for the local train. Which will usually be the train. However, come time for them to move the stored fleet of Autoracks to Detroit, that train will far and away surpass the passing sidings, because it won't be the one stopping, except to leave one end of the siding open for the switch train. UP does something similar. Not all Transcon trains fit into a passing siding. The ones that don't wait for the ones that do to get into the hole. Is the +6000ft train common? Not yet. But UP is fascinated by the concept. For now, they play with short trains cause that's their Given, and work until the infrastructure will support their Druther: the ever longer train.

[pastorbob]

As a sidenote, my Santa Fe is three decks in a room 29ft by 33ft. A  major part of the line is a branch that was called the Enid dist. between Enid OK and Guthrie.  This line was originally a short line that Santa Fe bought.  I model the area with a date of 1989.  Enid also is/was a major grain terminal port so many unit grain trains go in and out.  The distance of the Enid district then was 45 miles between Guthrie and Enid and had 4 four towns with passing tracks. 

However, the passing tracks were too short for unit grain trains, so trains moving from Guthrie to Enid were held while the trains from Enid to Guthrie ran, then the Guthrie trains were let go to run to Enid.  I built my passing tracks at my models of the towns too short also.  Makes an interesting twist in operating sessions.  The sidings are used then to store grain cars waiting to be used at various places.  Sadly after the BN fiasco, the Enid district was abandoned for the BN line to Tulsa which crosses the old Santa Fe at Perry.

It does make op sessions more interesting.

Bob

[htgguy]

tatans

Short trains are not prototypical, if they are too short , your layout is too small,  the first item in staging a layout is size of the layout to train size.

This is probably most often true, but rules it seems are made to be broken. This is my personal favorite exception to the rule about train length:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/look4trains/3429592333/

Jim

[riogrande5761]

The question is do you want to model the exception or the rule.  I think most of us want to model what is common and what we typically see.  The picture featured is probably at power set either making up a train or a movement between yards or something, perhaps a "long distance local".

I think we all do like to model interesting scenarios based on prototype.  For example, I enjoy late era private passenger trains in the mid-late 1960's and there was often a good deal of varation from the cookie cutter standard consists.  Pool power or power sharing lets you mix in "foreign" road power in trains.  But I digress.

[cmrproducts]

On my current home layout I have 1000' of mainline.

Now I suppose I should be running 100 car trains from my understanding of the previous posts here only because the more mainline the longer the trains should be! ;-)

I run 12 car locals !

It layout is prototypically based on the CR Lowgrade line and it had a lot of towns and curves.

The main industry in the area was coal so the real trains were in the 100 car range.

Unfortunately running trains that long just just looks stupid as the train would be in 3 or 4 towns at once.

I don't have the luxury of stretching out the distance between towns like I would like BUT

There have been Posts on here about layout owners having aircraft hangers they were going to build a layout in and run prototypical distances between town and the responders began to CRY it would be boring!

Yet this thread gives me the impression that everyone wants LONG trains

Having some 300 feet between towns - would give the Dispatcher time to actually get his orders out before the engineer he was talking to reached the next town!

Now as for switching with a long train - one of my regular operators tries this all of the time - running 3 MP15s and trying to switch the local industries - he keeps derailing  the 3 unit engine set and is fustrated that it keeps doing this - YET

He keeps trying each OPs session! - YOU would think he would learn - NOPE !

Or if he is on the mainline with a local - it is a 3 unit set again derailing when backing through complicated turnout arrangements - YET he continues in frustration rerailing the engines - and I come through with a single engine local - switch the industries and am on my way while he is still rerailing his power!

Now if I were modeling a 4 track MAINLINE running instead of a backwoods bridge route and only running from staging to staging then 3 or 4 engines would be no problems as you would never be backing through a bunch of turnouts!

So it is down to what the layout is supposed to represent - a shortline atmosphere or a high speed mainline - would determine the length of trains and the length of the passing sidings.

But only having a few feet between the caboose and the engine - is kind of silly and more on the order of a Christmas Tree layout - why not add a few more cars and have the engine act as its own PUSHER ! ;-)

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[JonMN]

cmrproducts

 why not add a few more cars and have the engine act as its own PUSHER ! ;-)

BOB H - Clarion, PA

Throw mid train helper in there too. Keeps the kids busy trying to figure what is pushing, pulling, front and back of train 

[cmrproducts]

Works for me! ;-)

BOB H - Clarion, PA

 

JonMN

 

cmrproducts:

 

 why not add a few more cars and have the engine act as its own PUSHER ! ;-)

BOB H - Clarion, PA

 

 

Throw mid train helper in there too. Keeps the kids busy trying to figure what is pushing, pulling, front and back of train 

[Fastball]

For my N scale layout, I keep adding cars until I think the train is long enough.   I really don't know how many cars that is however.  It may be six or seven feet long.  Six feet will have more 40 foot box cars in it than cylindrical hoppers.  I've never given it much thought to tell you the truth.  I try to limit the number of locos to two or three.  The only time I run four is an ABBA lash up of F units.  Passenger train length is a different issue where I think seven or eight coaches is long enough.

-Paul