blownout cylinder IRONROOSTER I agree that there will always be kit builders, just like there will always be scratch builders. Question is: how big is the market for kits? That is, not just how many actually buy them, but, also, how many do they buy Look. Let us suggest that the market is big enough to talk about it as a cottage industry--enough to maybe give someone enough pin money to get a few extra xmas presents at the end of the year---that market will still exist. And yet--it will live
IRONROOSTER I agree that there will always be kit builders, just like there will always be scratch builders. Question is: how big is the market for kits? That is, not just how many actually buy them, but, also, how many do they buy
I agree that there will always be kit builders, just like there will always be scratch builders. Question is: how big is the market for kits? That is, not just how many actually buy them, but, also, how many do they buy
Look. Let us suggest that the market is big enough to talk about it as a cottage industry--enough to maybe give someone enough pin money to get a few extra xmas presents at the end of the year---that market will still exist.
And yet--it will live
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
dm9538Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China.
dm9538Question 2 Would you still pay the same $25 to $35 for the same car produced in the US but with less detail. how much less detail I'm not really sure.
blownout cylinder...Hence we are only speculating about this whole trend, but, the nature of the forums that I've been on is still indicating that a LOT of modellers are not happy about the loss of all these kits and such. That is a segment that is seeing losses-- Look--even if it is a niche market--that market segment will still exist
Hence we are only speculating about this whole trend, but, the nature of the forums that I've been on is still indicating that a LOT of modellers are not happy about the loss of all these kits and such. That is a segment that is seeing losses--
Look--even if it is a niche market--that market segment will still exist
I understand that it's tough seeing old favorites get dropped. But while everybody moaned about the end of Bowser locomotive kits, how many went and bought some?
I agree that there will always be kit builders, just like there will always be scratch builders. Question is: how big is the market for kits? That is, not just how many actually buy them, but, also, how many do they buy?
Paul
IRONROOSTER All of this says to me the market wants RTR more than kits. I'm not sure this forum is representative of the marketplace, but I sense that much of the concern is over price - the loss of low cost rolling stock. I admit it's all anecdotal, but no one's releasing sales figures for kits and RTR.
All of this says to me the market wants RTR more than kits.
I'm not sure this forum is representative of the marketplace, but I sense that much of the concern is over price - the loss of low cost rolling stock.
I admit it's all anecdotal, but no one's releasing sales figures for kits and RTR.
I'm not really sure the data we are looking for will be forthcoming either.
CNJ831IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget. Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR. CNJ831
IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget.
Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread.
My observations are:
Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget.
Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR.
CNJ831
My observations at hobby stores, train shows, and new product announcements. Fewer kits are in evidence and the ratio has been shifting toward RTR. The hobby store nearest to me stopped carrying Athearn kits a few years ago (the others were already gone). Kits are still available, but it is becoming a niche market and dealers stock fewer of them if they have them at all. OTOH, everyone seems to carry RTR.
And manufacturers are dropping kits - Athearn is just the latest one - in favor of RTR.
Look at On30, it took off with Bachmann's RTR line.
The great popularity of hirail where it's all RTR. And N which has been mostly RTR for years.
andrechapelonYou've indicated an interest in becoming a manufacturer. OK, fine. You make something I want badly enough, I'll figure out a way to buy it. What I won't do is snivel and whine about your pricing. And if you don't make something I really want, hey, I'm no worse off than before and you can join the thousands of of other manufacturers of all types who will never see one red cent from me. You'll be in good company, Gucci, Ferragamo, BMW, Division Point (OK, I'd like some of their stuff, just not enough to be willing to cough up the asking price).
MY--you got quite piculous about this particular topic didn't you? I thought I'd get you out of the woodwork---You see, the thing is that there is still an idea about growing a market---at some point--we want people to buy at some point right? Can't do it if the price is so high that the only one who can is a guy who is buying McClaren Supercars---Or the new Bugatti's---
----but then again-----
Profits in the train business?
I have no idea what the actual profits are. I know the English's lived cheap all those years.
I know that famous train dealers like John Glaab are fond of saying "Wanna make a small fortune in the train business--then start with a large fortune".
Sure there is profit, but if you think only in terms of profit you will not last. The manufacturers generally do this because they love trains more than money--because there's way better ways to make money.
I have no idea of the actual profit in the train business, but I don't know anybody who lives other than a middle class existence.
My 2c.
John
Sir Madog Jobless people don´t buy trains.
Jobless people don´t buy trains.
Actually, I believed that to be true in the past, and Lewis K. English, Sr., the long-time owner of Bowser, now about 93 years old, set me straight on this issue.
Actually, jobless people do buy trains! Unemployed men attempt to forget about their problems through various means--which usually does involve their favorite hobby--and even spending more time/money on it than when they are working.
Now, since right after 9/11, the train business has suffered and has not fully recovered, and perhaps this "recession" or more appropriately, depression, is a bit different than others, but Lew English made it crystal clear to me on more than one occasion that, historically, when the economy was bad their business actually picked up!
Nowadays, with the internet, and people shopping for the lowest possible price everywhere, it's more a case of "holding your own"--holding the market you have.
The really good train dealers are basically trying to hold their own and maintain what they have--but sales aren't really down significantly if you average them out over the course of a whole year. It's hard to know for sure, because there were down years in the past, too.
Sir MadogI wish Bowser would still make those PRR loco kits, I´d pay a good price for it, because I know the care that went into this product. Call me old-fashioned, if you like.
I'm not here to call people names. Maybe my opinions will not agree with others, but I'm likely nearly as "old fashioned" as you.
An unofficial source told me they did an accounting and realized the yearly sales of Bowser kits were down to less than 1/3 of the employee payroll. Now, maybe a little bit of that time was also connected to the internet/mail order business (selling other people's products) but the stark reality was that production of the kits could not continue.
They were losing money on the kits, period, no matter how you'd do the accounting. Unfortunately, real American jobs were lost. People that knew me years ago and were still there...
I work in civil engineering consulting--which quite frankly is a bad business right now with work dried up. If I could figure out a way to make an honest living in the model train business, which I do love, don't you think I'd do it in a minute?
Even as a sales manager of a fine train store, I could not support my family on the income they pay for the 50 to 60 hours per week they have to work. That's even if I was a good enough sales person to be the manager. (I have a friend who is--and I'm just not that good with people--though I loved retail train sales and miss it).
YoHo1975I wonder if this conversation would take a different tack if the economy and people's paychecks and retirement accounts were in a different place right now?
The Blue Box kits are interesting, because you're right, inevitably, the Pennsy, ATSF, UP stuff would sell and the rest would sit there. But if they didn't make the stuff then people would complain.
It's less of a problem if you model 1960s onwards. As you're as likely to see any roadname on the train. And a TTX well car will work on any line. But again, BB kits were never made for those modern prototypes, so how they would sell is nothing but a guess.
I model from roughly the late 70s through current, and my big issue is locomotives. I see lots of people at train shows running a single very fancy Diesel engine on the point of a train. That's great, that DCC+Sound engine probably cost north of $200. good for you, but I'd like my SP freight to look realistic.
That means 5 or more units probably 3 tunnel motors, an SD45R and an SD40R and if it's really a big consist, maybe a 4 axle unit in there 2. 5 of those units, even at the $80 DC base price for Athearn RTR is $400 once you start talking DCC, you're looking at close to $600 and if you're talking Sound, it could easily exceed $1000. For just 1 train's loco consist.
If you've got a small layout with a handful of units, it's not so bad, but if you're interested in big time modern operations on a club or big home layout, it WILL be a problem.
With Blue Box, that cost was less. Maybe not much less, but every penny saved is a penny to use on something else.
That's my problem. And I'm thinking mainly of in a club setting for me personally.
Sir Madog Jobless people don´t buy trains. Remember the heydays of the hobby? Those glorious 1950´s and 1960´s? Trains were expensive, much more expensive than today, but people had jobs, an income and a perspective. That´s why they also spent money on trains - for their children (that´s us now) and for themselves. I agree, it may be too late already, as most of the "toy" (no offense meant, but that´s what it is) production has moved to China and the price level is rock bottom. If China gets too expensive, moving on may not be an option - too few modelers left. But I just don´t believe in this "Move to China or bust" - argument any longer. So if those importers/manufacturers are not making any money, why stay in business at all? I guess we all would be surprised, when some of those companies would have to publish their financial results. Only few are in the business just for the love of model railroading. I wish Bowser would still make those PRR loco kits, I´d pay a good price for it, because I know the care that went into this product. Call me old-fashioned, if you like.
Remember the heydays of the hobby? Those glorious 1950´s and 1960´s? Trains were expensive, much more expensive than today, but people had jobs, an income and a perspective. That´s why they also spent money on trains - for their children (that´s us now) and for themselves.
I agree, it may be too late already, as most of the "toy" (no offense meant, but that´s what it is) production has moved to China and the price level is rock bottom. If China gets too expensive, moving on may not be an option - too few modelers left.
But I just don´t believe in this "Move to China or bust" - argument any longer.
So if those importers/manufacturers are not making any money, why stay in business at all? I guess we all would be surprised, when some of those companies would have to publish their financial results. Only few are in the business just for the love of model railroading.
I wish Bowser would still make those PRR loco kits, I´d pay a good price for it, because I know the care that went into this product. Call me old-fashioned, if you like.
blownout cylinder CAUTION: Use of Hyperbole very extensive in this post---used to emphasize a point--- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK---time for a different tack--what about AFFORDABILITY? Do we even think of this now? HELLO!! What do you think the kid who is not wealthy going to do huh? He's going to stay out of the hobby! So much for growing a market------ How about the ones who do want to build kits---regardless of how out of date/time they be? They can get other kits yes but Athearns were in point of fact AFFORDABLE!! Huh---obviously we are more interested in what is convenient----grumble growl mumble snort
CAUTION: Use of Hyperbole very extensive in this post---used to emphasize a point---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK---time for a different tack--what about AFFORDABILITY? Do we even think of this now?
HELLO!!
What do you think the kid who is not wealthy going to do huh? He's going to stay out of the hobby!
So much for growing a market------
How about the ones who do want to build kits---regardless of how out of date/time they be? They can get other kits yes but Athearns were in point of fact AFFORDABLE!!
Huh---obviously we are more interested in what is convenient----grumble growl mumble snort
First off, affordability's a relative term. Seocndly, I wouldn't feel all that sorry for those "poor" kids who go around with cell phones, lap tops and iPods while wearing designer label clothes. And these aren't the "wealthy" ones.
When I bought my first Athearn kit in 1957, a D&LW 40's box car, it was $1.29. My allowance at the time was 50 cents/week, so that car cost the better part of 3 weeks allowance. $1.29 may sound affordable, but if you're only getting 50 cents a week, trust me, it's expensive.
Fast forward to today. I'm retired and on essentially a fixed income. However, my wife and I were very conservative financially. We never had any credit card debt, never used our house as an ATM, never bought a car than we could not afford to pay off in 3 years or less and certainly never lived in the type of house that goes by the term "McMansion". We managed to put 4 kids through college and acquire vacation real estate. Everything we own is paid for and we have no debt.
Our annual income is about 10% above the US median income, so we're not multiple standard deviations above the median. Still, we're probably considerably better off than a family with mortgage debt, car payments and 2 or 3 kids still at home. OTOH, we were in that situation at one time and somehow managed our finances so that the situation was temporary, which is the way it should be. Neither I nor Athearn (nor any model railroad manufacturer) is responsible for how other people manage their money regardless of their ages.
When I was a kid, my mom used to tell me that if I wanted something badly enough, I'd figure out a way to come by it honestly. Amazingly what I found out along the way is that there is a lot of stuff I can easily do without (McMansions, BMW's, 60" plasma TV's, designer label clothes, expensive watches to name a few). Some of my jeans have patches just like they did as a kid when I'd wear a hole in the knee and my mom would patch them (people did that to make things last 50 years ago, some still do).
I just have no sympathy whatsoever with the affordability argument when it comes to discretionary spending on railroad models. You don't need 'em. You can't eat, wear, live in or drive them. If you want a model that badly, find places where you can save enough money to buy it.. Otherwise, do without.
You've indicated an interest in becoming a manufacturer. OK, fine. You make something I want badly enough, I'll figure out a way to buy it. What I won't do is snivel and whine about your pricing. And if you don't make something I really want, hey, I'm no worse off than before and you can join the thousands of of other manufacturers of all types who will never see one red cent from me. You'll be in good company, Gucci, Ferragamo, BMW, Division Point (OK, I'd like some of their stuff, just not enough to be willing to cough up the asking price).
Andre
Lee English is my former boss, actually my first boss ever, and I consider him a friend, though I'm not a "close" friend (I'm closer to the store sales manager). Lee and his (now retired) parents have known me since I was about 5 years old.
Quite frankly, he's often quite busy, with his hands very full, just trying to run his company to be able to come on here, follow discussions, and post.
I also have absolutely no right to speak on Lee or Bowser's behalf--but I very much believe he would say he is trying "to provide a quality product at a good price". That's all they've ever tried to do in the 36 years I've known them, whether it be made here or somewhere else. I'm proud to be able to say I once made the stuff, too. It was indeed challenging work.
Bowser is not a large company--but anyone who wishes may contact them through their website. They have some real modelers working there who will either forward questions on to Lee or answer them directly. People have provided them useful information through email that has resulted in new products. This is actually ongoing. They are becoming more responsive to their prospective customers than ever before.
UP 4-12-2 Sir Madog Without the intention to start a flame war - we have to remember, that the only reason, why a company is moving their production to China is to reap extra $$$ and improve the bottom line, and not necessarily to provide good products at an affordable price. Yes, we are all racing for bargains, to get the best value for our money. There is nothing wrong on that, unless it starts to kill an economy. For an economy to be able to survive, we need to have a balanced mix of the agricultural sector (feeding us), industrial production (creating marketable values) and the service sector (supporting the first two). Globalization has led to cannibalization of the production sector in most western countries, effecting, that our money is not backed by the necessary amount of values, making it fodder for speculation and inflation. We have been there before... Globalization is not a one-way street. If moving the production to China means providing them with income they can use to buy in the US, or Germany - any where in the western world, then this will provide the necessary balance. I am afraid, that this is currently not the situation. Back to the original question. It is my feeling, that the low price situation will end sooner than we expect it to happen. The Chinese are learning fast and the RMB will appreciate quite a lot vs. the USD and the EUR in the long run. We have been there before, when Japan took over the camera market, the car market and the home electronics market. Given the cost of shipping and quality control (quality is still an issue, and will remain so for a long time), there are some industries, which are now looking to in-sourcing strategies. Would I pay a premium for domestic products? Yes, within the means I can afford. I see this as an investment into the nation I am a member of - be it for R-T-R or kits, that is not an issue Sorry, but you are dead wrong on your first paragraph. Companies are moving production to China because the competition already forced them to--not out of pure greed, as some of the folks on these forums want to believe. You cannot make the $20 (or higher priced, now) can motor in the U.S. when your competition is getting the exact same quality at $4 from China. You WILL NOT REMAIN IN BUSINESS. The choice faced by many manufacturers is either make the stuff in China, and be able to compete with Atlas, Walthers, etc. on price/quality OR Close your doors. It's not about greed. People don't make trains out of greed--there are way better ways of making money than producing and selling toy, ahem "model", trains. A friend of mine, actually the current boss of Bowser, had to take a 50% personal pay cut after 9/11 to stay in business. He is not getting rich on Chinese labor--he's just trying to stay in business. Lee English would say directly to your face he is trying to provide a quality product at an affordable price. At my job, which isn't so great either, I'm likely making more money than Lee, especially per hour of time spent at work. John
Sir Madog Without the intention to start a flame war - we have to remember, that the only reason, why a company is moving their production to China is to reap extra $$$ and improve the bottom line, and not necessarily to provide good products at an affordable price. Yes, we are all racing for bargains, to get the best value for our money. There is nothing wrong on that, unless it starts to kill an economy. For an economy to be able to survive, we need to have a balanced mix of the agricultural sector (feeding us), industrial production (creating marketable values) and the service sector (supporting the first two). Globalization has led to cannibalization of the production sector in most western countries, effecting, that our money is not backed by the necessary amount of values, making it fodder for speculation and inflation. We have been there before... Globalization is not a one-way street. If moving the production to China means providing them with income they can use to buy in the US, or Germany - any where in the western world, then this will provide the necessary balance. I am afraid, that this is currently not the situation. Back to the original question. It is my feeling, that the low price situation will end sooner than we expect it to happen. The Chinese are learning fast and the RMB will appreciate quite a lot vs. the USD and the EUR in the long run. We have been there before, when Japan took over the camera market, the car market and the home electronics market. Given the cost of shipping and quality control (quality is still an issue, and will remain so for a long time), there are some industries, which are now looking to in-sourcing strategies. Would I pay a premium for domestic products? Yes, within the means I can afford. I see this as an investment into the nation I am a member of - be it for R-T-R or kits, that is not an issue
Without the intention to start a flame war - we have to remember, that the only reason, why a company is moving their production to China is to reap extra $$$ and improve the bottom line, and not necessarily to provide good products at an affordable price. Yes, we are all racing for bargains, to get the best value for our money. There is nothing wrong on that, unless it starts to kill an economy. For an economy to be able to survive, we need to have a balanced mix of the agricultural sector (feeding us), industrial production (creating marketable values) and the service sector (supporting the first two). Globalization has led to cannibalization of the production sector in most western countries, effecting, that our money is not backed by the necessary amount of values, making it fodder for speculation and inflation. We have been there before...
Globalization is not a one-way street. If moving the production to China means providing them with income they can use to buy in the US, or Germany - any where in the western world, then this will provide the necessary balance. I am afraid, that this is currently not the situation.
Back to the original question. It is my feeling, that the low price situation will end sooner than we expect it to happen. The Chinese are learning fast and the RMB will appreciate quite a lot vs. the USD and the EUR in the long run. We have been there before, when Japan took over the camera market, the car market and the home electronics market. Given the cost of shipping and quality control (quality is still an issue, and will remain so for a long time), there are some industries, which are now looking to in-sourcing strategies.
Would I pay a premium for domestic products? Yes, within the means I can afford. I see this as an investment into the nation I am a member of - be it for R-T-R or kits, that is not an issue
Sorry, but you are dead wrong on your first paragraph. Companies are moving production to China because the competition already forced them to--not out of pure greed, as some of the folks on these forums want to believe.
You cannot make the $20 (or higher priced, now) can motor in the U.S. when your competition is getting the exact same quality at $4 from China.
You WILL NOT REMAIN IN BUSINESS. The choice faced by many manufacturers is either make the stuff in China, and be able to compete with Atlas, Walthers, etc. on price/quality
OR
Close your doors.
It's not about greed. People don't make trains out of greed--there are way better ways of making money than producing and selling toy, ahem "model", trains. A friend of mine, actually the current boss of Bowser, had to take a 50% personal pay cut after 9/11 to stay in business. He is not getting rich on Chinese labor--he's just trying to stay in business. Lee English would say directly to your face he is trying to provide a quality product at an affordable price.
At my job, which isn't so great either, I'm likely making more money than Lee, especially per hour of time spent at work.
Also, when China becomes expensive, as they surely will, production will move elsewhere. The plastic train manufacturers follow the lead of the brass importers. When Japan became expensive, they moved to Korea. When Korea (think Samhongsa and Ajin Precision) became expensive, they opened factories in China. When China becomes expensive, production will move to some other developing country--but it won't be moving back here.
Fine with me, Larry. Just wanted to point out the risk we may be running with these issues.
Sir Madog Interesting to see, how this thread has changed direction, from a question on how much one would be willing to pay to the R-T-R vs. kit/scratch building issue, only to arrive at the age-old collector vs. true model railroader question. Time to move on?
Interesting to see, how this thread has changed direction, from a question on how much one would be willing to pay to the R-T-R vs. kit/scratch building issue, only to arrive at the age-old collector vs. true model railroader question.
Time to move on?
No,I think its been a rather interesting topic with several excellent view points and so far its been civilized-far more then it would have been 5 years ago and that speaks well for the current membership and how well the moderators have this forum under control...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
As so many others have said, I buy what fits a need. If it's something I want and it cost $XX, I will save up and get it. It doesn't matter if it's RTR or a kit and it doesn't matter where it's made.
A few year's back, people were bemoaning the cost of Kadee RTR cars, trying to apply the made in the USA equated to the "unusually" high price. Now it seems the most RTR offerings are in the same price range. at least those with the same level of detail.
I too cut my teeth on Athearn BB and MDC/Roundhouse kits (I remember the pain of having to paint the floors!). The big problem I saw was the same kits on the shelves, I just didn't need another DD automobile car from the 40s-50s lettered for ATSF. Now does that mean they won't sell, not sure. As my modeling improved and as I refined what I model, I changed to more accurate models, in many cases, it coincided with the change to RTR hobby-wide. The manufacturers are simply following where the money is. As far as them reading this forum and making a decision to lower prices because folks have found bargains, not going to happen. If you got a bargain, I'm happy for you, but that was at the expense of the retailer, not the manufacturer (in most cases).
Furthermore, I have no problems with painting and decalling my own stuff. I have several locos and cars that are waiting for final details and will go in the paint shop. But I won't expend the time and money to convert a BB to the standard I'm looking for today, there are other aspects of the hobby I enjoy and want to devote time to instead.
The other thing I think many forget, is that we collect over our lifetime. I have somewhere around 300 pieces of rolling stock (in boxes until layout early next year), I didn't buy them all at once. The ones I bought as a kid, most under 5 dollars, are what I could afford and I still only bought a few each year. If I average out those 300 over how long I've been in the hobby, it equates to about 10 a year. Then if you take into consideration some were multipacks and passenger trains, there were some years that virtually nothing was bought.
Bottom line is I have no qualms with the cost, it is a hobby after all and not on the bottom rung of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs pyramid. We have more selection of what we see, have seen or have prototype pictures of than ever before and my only real gripe is that I only have so much room!
Sorry if it was disjointed but wanted to address many of the posts I read.
Ricky
I'm afraid that the hobby has become driven by forces very different from what prevailed prior to the turn of the century, becoming increasing about simply acquiring, while at the same time less and less about good modeling and craftsmanship.
------------------------
John,I'm not to sure about that..One thing I have notice is how layouts has improved and some looks far better then they did 10 years ago.Its become obvious that today's modeler can do museum work by using Woodland Scenic material...All my dad had was screen wire,plaster,green paint,twigs and lichen.
Hobby grewup plain and simple and today's modeler is wanting the best and no longer interest in generic..Oddly,I seen this coming years ago and mention it several times and in short many thought that Larry finally lost it.
What give me this hint of things to come? That lowly LL P2K BL2..Our pleas have been heard.
Wow, a lot of post since yesterday! To answer one of the questions on Bachmann as to why the ship new rather than repair. Loco comes in and clerk ships out new one, takes about 5 min. maybe. Loco comes in clerk logs it and sends it over to repair person, by the time it makes it way out maybe an hour has passed. So even at $10.00 an hour (I'm sure a repair person would get more) way one cost .83 cents, way two cost $10.00 or around $9.00 more. Actual cost of item to manufacture including shipping $3.00 to $12.00. Chance of problem with repair 20%, chance of problem with new 5%. It just ends up cheaper to send new! What I want is access to their junk pile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BRAKIE John,That may well be true but,many modelers fail to realize the generic BB car kit era(meaning all shake the box generic car kits) has ended..Take a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX. The hobby has grownup over the past few years and in left the BB kit era behind..A lot of modelers is resenting this fact..Today's hobby is more demanding for correctly done models instead of those old generic models that once prevailed..
John,That may well be true but,many modelers fail to realize the generic BB car kit era(meaning all shake the box generic car kits) has ended..Take a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX.
The hobby has grownup over the past few years and in left the BB kit era behind..A lot of modelers is resenting this fact..Today's hobby is more demanding for correctly done models instead of those old generic models that once prevailed..
Quite honestly, Larry, I see the hobby as having evolved away from actual model railroading in the direction of simply collecting and this whole high-priced, accuracy, issue is a direct reflection of that. That's what diverted brass from its earliest years of being a source of motive power and rollingstock of higher detail for layout use to largely a collectibles sub-culture, which was more-or-less (and has remained so) outside of the real model railroading hobby ever since.
If the level of quality layout modeling had advanced dramatically in recent years, then I could see a real need for ultra-accurate RTR models, at the higher prices, to compliment the situation and to allow the hobbyist additional time to even further improve his layout overall. That was one of the original claims made by the RTR folks of what it would do. However, nothing of the sort is apparent and to judge from what one sees in the photo galleries of various forums, the "average" modeler's layout is of no substantially better quality today than a decade or two ago...long before the RTR take-over.
The true rivet counters, who indeed demand high accuracy, have always been a minute segment of the hobby. To this day, the typical hobbyist is a freelancer who pretty much runs what he likes, rather than matching his layout to some highly specific time, place and prototype equipment roster. To be very frank, I'd venture that 75% of hobbyists today wouldn't have any idea of the true accuracy of any given high-end HO model in their possession without depending on someone else on the Internet, or in the pages of MR, telling them so! That being the case, just what is the motivation for 100% accuracy here?
Barry,This is from my observation and its a scary thought.
My oldest grandson is a modeler and currently in the Air Force.Every month he ships models home for safe keeping..There isn't a generic car kit among the stuff he buys...
Now where did he get these high modeling standards? Not from good enough modeler Grandpa..
I fully believe his generation of modelers will demand cars and locomotives that is highly detail and detailed for a specific road...
What is affordable?
Good question..How about this? Is it possible the future modelers will have less locomotives and cars because they want the RTR highly detailed cars and locomotives?
The popularity growth of ISLs isn't just a anomoly but,a clue of where this hobby could be heading...
BRAKIETake a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX.
The price of all these new RTR kits seems to be getting out of hand, and I think that's a big turnoff for a lot of people who grew up on the BlueBox kits, myself included. But then the cost is relative.
I don't know what the cost of an undec generic tank car would be if it were available today. Let's say $10. A set of Microscale decals is $6.50. A bottle of paint is what, another $4.50? So we're up to $21 already. Then there's the time and money involved with searching for and obtaining any of the details parts you'd need to get the model to approach what the RTR UTLX looks like. And you know what? Once it's all completed, the RTR Athearn car will probably still be better looking.
CNJ831 IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget. Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR. CNJ831
Not so long ago I resisted this move and was slow to realized the hobby has changed leaving me choking in the dust.Sure,they are still unknown thousands of average Joe modelers that has either embrace this new era or choose to remain behind pinning for the "good old days".