jwhittenWith so many factors to consider, technical details, utilitarian preferences, and plain serendipity to consider, how does a modeler pick and choose and make any kind of informed selection? Where does one begin? What details are important to consider? Which are less important? How important is a "family look"? How important is a "plausible selection"? How many locomotives should a railroad own? Are locomotives bound to a particular district or region? Or do they (all or some) travel all over the extent of the railroad? How does one best select models to represent their railroad's choices?
To begin, pick an era/date, a location, and a railroad.
Details, details, details...
Family look is very important (unless chosen railroad acquired a hodge podge of locomotives).
Plausibility is very important.
Acquire as many locomotives as it pleases (they don't all need to be on the layout at the same time).
The "stiff" and heavy locomotives don't venture on the branchline.
Best to select locomotives as said at the beginning.
That's all there is to it.
Mark
jwhitten What's a poor modeler to do...?
Whatever you like - on your layout, you get to make the decisions
Here is an old thread about what some people's engine rosters are like: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/151763/1678908.aspxThe thread mentioned above contains references to two previous "what's in your roster" threads:
Thread from 2007 with 166 answers: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/10254.aspx
Thread from November 2008 with 78 replies: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/142253/1583513.aspx
Have a look at the old threads, and see if you can work out how people have built their rosters :-)
Smile,Stein
John, why don't you write a book or something?
During my 36 years in this hobby, I have at times attempted to emulate prototypical practice regarding motive power selections--even attempted to keep to "just one railroad" or "just one era".
All it ever did was make me unhappy and frustrated.
I now buy what I like, which includes big time mainline power only. I don't care much for switchers or branch line motive power. It has its place--just not on my layout.
I'm way too young, but the ultimate monsters of steam rule my rails...and a professionally weathered Stewart PC Alco C-628 just because I had to have one for old times' sake.
John
tstagejwhittenI'm not asking so much about literally purchasing the models as much as I am the philosophical and technical considerations involved in making the selections with respect to a "real" railroad.You asked for my opinion, John...From your above opening statement, this type of thread and discussion really belongs in (and is more appropriate for) the Prototype information to the modeler forum rather than the General Discussion forum. I'm going to move it there.Tom
jwhittenI'm not asking so much about literally purchasing the models as much as I am the philosophical and technical considerations involved in making the selections with respect to a "real" railroad.
You asked for my opinion, John...From your above opening statement, this type of thread and discussion really belongs in (and is more appropriate for) the Prototype information to the modeler forum rather than the General Discussion forum. I'm going to move it there.
Tom
It is *not* simply a "prototype" question at all. There is quite a bit more to the issue than what would the prototype do?
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I'm not very scientific about it. If I see a locomotive i like, I buy it and then I figure out how it fits into my layout and its story.
The things I like are slide-valve steam and shays (small ones - class A - 25T or less). I like them to have character and that's hard to describe, but I know it when I see it. I also have a "thing" for rail busses, especially ones that look like back-shop projects (lots of character). Finally, I prefer brass, so I buy mine used and fix them up.
I also like to buy distressed brass models and breath new life into them. These also end up on my layout.
I also have a low bridge that all locos must pass below, so there are some that I decide against just because they are too tall.
I have one loco that is sort of out of character for me: An NWSL 0-6-0. It's more modern than I usually go for, but it was once owned by Lynn Westcott. As editor of Model Railroader, Westcott had a huge influence on me and the joy I find in the hobby. I bought this loco just because of the connection to him.
For me, I use my heart more than my head when I pick out locomotives.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
I suspect I am about to as a very under-stated question with lots of side-issues and subjective answers.... but here goes anyway...
How does one develop a locomotive roster?
I'm not asking so much about literally purchasing the models as much as I am the philosophical and technical considerations involved in making the selections with respect to a "real" railroad. And I'm certain there are about as many approaches to this as there are railroads. And I'm pretty sure that there is at least some measure of serendipity at play as well.
So how does a novice Model Railroader know which locomotives to select? What features to look for-- or add-on later? What details are specific to a single locomotive versus typically added to all/most locomotives of a class or a fleet, versus what all/most railroads did? How do you go about selecting specific locomotives for the roster?
How does one know, for instance, that a 2-6-4 Pacific is not generally a good choice for hauling long coal drags through the mountains of West Virginia? Or conversely that a 2-8-8-8-2 Triplex is probably not the best lineup for the top-of-the-line premier passenger service...?
The Devil's Always in the Details...
It seems to me, pursuant to answering this question for my own model railroads, that there are a number of factors that are relevant:
And then there are the specific technical / engineering considerations that I personally have little or no knowledge of, or even much clue how to obtain the requisite information, aside from simply asking.
I think its a safe bet that, generally speaking, pretty much everybody's railroad, whether real or in model form, consists of some subset of the above factors. Thus it is likely that these factors provide, at least, a pretty good starting point and basis for locomotive selection. Therefore I think its a reasonable assumption to state that most real locomotive selections can ultimately be whittled down further into a few generalized observations along the following lines:
Location, Location, Location!
Another primary consideration that would greatly influence the selection is the type of terrain and service the locomotive would experience in its regular operation. Railroads operating in eastern mountainous territories needed different types of locomotives than did railroads operating on the western plains. Likewise a railroad operating in a major metropolitan city will have different considerations than a lightweight belt line. Railroads with lots of tight curves and track grades need locomotives with smaller wheelbases, or else articulated frames, in order to negotiate the curves. At the same time however, those locomotives would need to develop a larger amount of tractive effort in order to haul cars up and down the grades. That would in turn influence the size of the driving wheels and pistons, along with the size and shape of the boiler and associated boiler pressure.
Whereas in contrast, railroads operating in flatter, more "open" terrain with broader curves, could choose pretty much any locomotive style they wanted-- and could afford-- including locomotives with longer wheelbases that could offer more power at the railhead-- whether delivered as speed or improved tractive effort-- which meant for the railroad gains in either overall travel time, good for passenger service, or else longer / higher-tonnage freight trains and a better competitive profile.
Researching Online...
While researching this question, I ran across the following site which offered some useful opinions and insights into the question:
I thought it was a pretty good read recommend it to anyone considering building up their roster. But in my reading, it seemed more of a starting point, generating more questions than answers, though it does give general advice which seems helpful.
That was the only web site with good solid information that I was able to find right off. I'm sure there are probably others and I'd sure like to know about them if anybody has links they could supply. I'll edit this article and insert them here if I receive any.
EDIT: Steinjr has helpfully contributed these links to previous threads, here on the MRR web site, that ennumerate some of the choices that other people have made.
"Here is an old thread about what some people's engine rosters are like: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/151763/1678908.aspxThe thread mentioned above contains references to two previous "what's in your roster" threads:Thread from 2007 with 166 answers: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/10254.aspxThread from November 2008 with 78 replies: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/142253/1583513.aspxHave a look at the old threads, and see if you can work out how people have built their rosters :-)Smile,Stein"
"Here is an old thread about what some people's engine rosters are like: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/p/151763/1678908.aspxThe thread mentioned above contains references to two previous "what's in your roster" threads:
Smile,Stein"
The Class-I Railroads
Most Class-I railroads, and apparently many Class-II's as well, manufactured, or caused to be manufactured, their "own" locomotives, or else used generic designs-- the USRA designs for instance-- and then customized with their own features and specifications which tended to create a "family look" across large portions of the railroad's fleet of locomotives. Thus for knowledgeable observers, it was often fairly easy to tell which locomotive belonged to which railroad even without seeing the name just by recognizing elements and features that were common to a particular road.
Typical items that a railroad might change could be the headlight and bell placement, the pilot style or the type of boiler or firebox used. The Pennsylvania Railroad, for example, was well-known for using Belpaire type fireboxes which gave their locomotives a very distinctive hump on top of the boiler near the cab.
The only other major railroad to use Belpaire fireboxes was the Great Northern. So it was a pretty safe bet-- depending on your locale-- if you saw a locomotive sporting a Belpaire firebox, you knew which railroad it belonged to.
Other items that were commonly switched around include the generator placement, different types of tenders: local, long-haul, etc., and the fuel type: coal, oil, etc. Then these specifications would have been applied throughout the extent of the railroad to all, or most, locomotives of similar class.
When you have a lot of locomotives to service and keep track of, its important to minimize the number of conditional factors that add expense, can cause problems, or introduce delays or errors into the workflow.
While there were still exceptions based on engineering considerations, or market forces, or government interference, the railroads were keen on standardization wherever possible as a way of trimming costs and simplifying maintenance to the greatest extent possible. The Pennsylvania Railroad in particular took the concept of "standardization" to new heights and formed laboratories that were unprecedented for their time to test all manner of things and generate "standardized preferences" based on the results.
As evidenced by the many discussions put forth here, on the MR web site, there are any number of myriad details to consider, even in addition to the various general considerations and factors outlined above! One thing though that stands out as a principle selection criterion-- at least as much as any other, and whether implemented in actual practice or not-- was the goal of minimizing the number of different locomotive types and manufacturers to the whatever extent possible in order to reduce the number of maintenance personnel and spare parts needed to service the fleet.
And this would have been especially true in the steam era as steam engines were notoriously "individual", even when they were supposedly "standardized", due to the large number of "wear items" involved.
The "Other Guys"... But what about smaller railroads? The short lines... the mom & pop railroads barely eking out a living-- what criteria do they use for selection? Money? The "el-cheapness" factor? That'd be my guess-- whatever is available the cheapest at the time of selection that will do the job.
Clinchfield / Haysi Railroad
I read an interesting blurb in a book about the Clinchfield railroad about a creative solution that was employed at one of the mines they serviced-- it needed a shifter / pusher engine for extremely light duty, moving coal hoppers around the two or three tracks they had off the mainline. To meet this need they purchased an old 'F'-style "B" unit from the Clinchfield railroad to do the job. The blurb pointed out that the "B" units had "Hostler" controls in them that were satisfactory for the simple job of shuffling around the cars. I thought it was pretty clever, and it certainly met the requirement of "cheap".
"Clinchfield Country" Web SItehttp://clinchfieldcountry.com/photos/haysi.htm
The Montour Railroad
The Montour railroad, one of the roads I've been researching for my own layout, standardized on small diesel switch engines as it transitioned out of the steam era. SW7's / SW9's and the like were the standard order of the day which proved to be a good selection as it reduced the operating and maintenance costs, maintenance personnel, and the number of in-stock spare parts needed to service the locomotives. They had short wheelbases, 4-wheeled trucks, and could be mixed-and-matched (MU'd) in various combinations to achieve the motive power requirements for any given run. The Montour owed its existance primarily to the coal and mineral customers it served in a very small, but profitable, belt around the outskirts of Pittsburgh PA.
The Sumpter Valley Railroad
One specific type of railroad industry that had lots of "detail" options is the logging and mountain coal / minerals railroad. These railroads often used Shays, Climaxes or other geared locomotives that were as unique as the trainmen who ran them. Operating in remote mountain or back-woods regions (or both!), geared locomotives were often outfitted with spark arrestors, fire-fighting equipment, deer antlers, and an odd assortment of on-board spare parts, tools, and other assorted paraphenalia related to operations or field maintenance. Additionally, their pilots were often replaced with simple wooden beams and their cabs "modified" to suit the climate-- more open in southern climes and closed-off in the colder regions.
The Sumpter Valley Railroad Web Site: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mydickfamily/locomotives_of_the_svrr.htm
Establishing the "Family Look"Getting back to the "Family Look" aspect touched upon above, one of the specific questions I have in developing my own roster, is what details are important? How do I go about deciding what "details" would have been ordered or applied by the specific railroad that would achieve the "look". I realize that the railroads did not ordinarily order or detail locomotives with the specific intent of "creating a look", rather they had a series of "operational preferences" that dictated this detail or that-- in general.
Though once specified, I suspect the railroads wanted to "standardize" on parts and equipment and so ordered the same or similar types of components for their various locomotives, where applicable, which by defacto, created a distinctive "look" for the railroad. So the question really here-- especially for the modeler not connected with the railroad industry-- how do you know what details are available or might have been chosen for your particular railroad?
Any Color You Want as Long as its Black!
But what if you're not modeling the Pennsy or the Southern Pacific, the Santa Fe, or one of the other major railroads that the various model railroading manufacturers have cranked-out model after model for, what do you do? In addition to the design and selection criteria put to the "real" railroads to consider, you also have the practical availability, considerations and / or limitations put forth by the model manufacturers as well-- not to mention your own modeling skills for follow-on details and your budget to consider. As the "Brass Hat" of your own railroad, plus being "Chief Engineer" (plus Cook and Bottle Washer), you have both at the same time a seemingly unending selection of models to choose from, as well as a very constrained selection of models to choose from upon, closer inspection.
My Questions for Today:With so many factors to consider, technical details, utilitarian preferences, and plain serendipity to consider, how does a modeler pick and choose and make any kind of informed selection? Where does one begin? What details are important to consider? Which are less important? How important is a "family look"? How important is a "plausible selection"? How many locomotives should a railroad own? Are locomotives bound to a particular district or region? Or do they (all or some) travel all over the extent of the railroad? How does one best select models to represent their railroad's choices?As usual, I'm looking forward to your opinions...What is the best way to develop a locomotive roster?John