Replacement Metal Wheelsets...What to use? Kadee, Proto 2000, Intermountain?

[mondotrains]

Hi Dave,
I really appreciated hearing from you especially because you folks obviously run model trains more than anyone I could possibly think of. When you said you replace plastic wheels with Intermountains, it brought up a question I've had. Have the metal axle points of the Intermountains ever worn through plastic trucks. I don't plan to replace plastic trucks and just wondered if the metal axles with needle-sharp points would be a problem.

Thank you,
Mondo

QUOTE: Originally posted by DHarrison

Great thread, read all three pages...
At MSI-Chicago's Great Train Story our HO scale trains are run more in a week then most run in a year. Any plastic wheel is replaced with InterMountain at the start. OEM metal wheels will be given a trial.

Walthers wheelsets on their passenger and commuter cars wear out the axle ends in three weeks. They're the only places where we use Kadees, besides the 28 in. on the triple level auto carriers.

Some might be aware of the problematic OEM wheels on the Athearn bethgons (2nd run UP) but the first run on the BNSF have just finished four months of nonstop running at MSI. A 24 car MDC train was sidelined as the metal axles have worn through the truck sideframes. We're now experimenting with bearing lube in plastic sideframes. Metal sideframes have always gotten conductive lube.

There's a Metra train running on a visitor controlled loop track almost all of which is a superelevated curve. The streetcrossing simulations even wears the edges of the flanges. These cars now sport IM roller bearing wheels.

Oh, how much running you ask...ten real miles per day.

David Harrison

[Anonymous]

At MSI the metal axles will cut the plastic sideframes...but then, nobody runs 'em like we do LOL!! Each manufacturer's plastic is different. We wore out some Rivarossi sideframes in three weeks....then used the IM rollerbearing sets until that train was stored. Those wheels are now under Metra.

The 24 car MDC train sidelined over the weekend used IM's along with others...if they were already metal, IM's weren't substituted. That led us to lube axle ends.

Some of the original Walthers Superliner trucks are showing wear, so they were lubed as a preventive measure. I'm thinking of a measuring stick to be inserted between the railhead and truck frame to quickly identify worn trucks. And we've placed an order for a couple of hundred trucks of various manufacturers and designs too.

And a note on locos...the three high mileage Kato 70MACs trying to make the 2 thousand miles to Seattle...the copper axle (wheel) wiper had the holes worn into ovals. They were replaced at the last servicing.

I remember a conversation trackside with a modeller who wnted to suggest fancy journals and whatever....I laughed and said its cheaper and less trouble to just buy new plastic sideframes.

David Harrison

[jspinner]

Hi David,
how about some pictures of those 3 Katos SD-70 MACs that's running the 2000 miles marathon.

Thank you
John

[Anonymous]

Very interesting chapter. So far, 24 hard printed copies. Didn't realize that IM made the wheels for Reboxx.

[Don Gibson]

SOME FACT VS. FICTIONS:

1. Contrary to any theories, OIL on your track attracts dust and dirt. ALL OILS.
Transmission fluid is an oil. so are Wahl clipper oil and 'Contact' Cleaners.

2. BLACKENED WHEELSETS have a thin plating . It wears off quickly and your wheels have a realistic shiny tread. Any deposited on your track comes off easily with the dirt.

3. The NMRA was established so one mfgr's wheels would match another's frames. Much of our current products are made overseas and some use N.E.M. (European)standards not NMRA , and surprise! - they don't fit each other. Wheels fall out or don't fit into . REBOXX has different axle lengths, but they can't tell you what is used by who. Their 'cross- reference' is full of errors -example IHC metal passenger trucks: tIf you try to replace the wheels you destroy the truck. Same for Central Valley.

4, PROTO 2000 wheelsets are only popular because they are 'cheap'. They have a 'blob' of slippery plastic on the axle ends to aid rolling that is often off-center. You pays your money and get metal wheels with more 'wobble' than any other brand.
KADEE wheelsets have plastic axles - designed to work in their metal side frames.
INTERMOUNTAIN's wheelsets are superior to both - but require good side frames.
NWSL and JAY BEE produce highly accuratemachined wheels at around $1.00 per... about the same price as KD couplers. Their highly polished brass axles insure good rolling qualities with plastic sideframes, and no attraction for KD magnets. JayBee's offers 33" and 36" in either NMRA or NEM axles. Listed in Walthers' catalog - and at about the same price as the 'TOOL'

[AntonioFP45]

DHarrison,

Thanks for your input. I plan on having a fleet of about 20 Walther's passenger cars. I hope that the wheel sets don't wear out so quickly.

Based on all of the input I've been reading, I'm going to give Intermountains a try. I've been using P2K's on my freight cars and like the performance.

[jwmurrayjr]

Just an FYI,

Tom's Trains of Connecticut (www.tomstrains.com) sells Intermountain metal wheels for $42.95 per box of 100.

Love those metal wheels!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DHarrison

Great thread, read all three pages...
At MSI-Chicago's Great Train Story our HO scale trains are run more in a week the. Any plastic wheel is replaced with InterMountain at the start. OEM metal wheels will be given a trial.



There's a Metra train running on a visitor controlled loop track almost all of which is a superelevated curve. The streetcrossing simulations even wears the edges of the flanges. These cars now sport IM roller bearing wheels.

Oh, how much running you ask...ten real miles per day.

David Harrison

Obviously IM is a winner. What a testimonial and to know Reboxx gets their wheels from IM.
You can't get better recommendations.

[AntonioFP45]

JWMurray Jr.

For those 100 wheels at $42.95

Is that for a box of all the same size wheels, or can it be mixed?

Still, a very good price!

[jwmurrayjr]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

JWMurray Jr.

For those 100 wheels at $42.95

Is that for a box of all the same size wheels, or can it be mixed?

Still, a very good price!

My order was for 2 boxes (200) of 33" wheels. Just email Tom Bryant at [e-mail] and ask. He's very good to deal with and sells anything in the Walthers catalog at a good discount.[^]

[michealfarley]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

SOME FACT VS. FICTIONS:
4, PROTO 2000 wheelsets are only popular because they are 'cheap'. They have a 'blob' of slippery plastic on the axle ends to aid rolling that is often off-center.

Umm................I use Proto 2000 wheelsets because I like them best, not cause their cheap, although it's a benefit. I have on my layout: Kadee, Intermountain, LBF, Athearn, Walthers, Atlas, and Proto 2000 metal wheelsets. The Proto 2000 and the Atlas are the best by far. It's not cost, it's my personal preference. As far as a "blob" of plastic? Not if you take them out of the package right. It's easy to nick or cut the axle end when opening the package.

Another thing about P2K is customer service. If you get a bad set, send them back. You'll get replacements!

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by michealfarley

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

SOME FACT VS. FICTIONS:
4, PROTO 2000 wheelsets are only popular because they are 'cheap'. They have a 'blob' of slippery plastic on the axle ends to aid rolling that is often off-center.

Umm................I use Proto 2000 wheelsets because I like them best, not cause their cheap, although it's a benefit. I have on my layout: Kadee, Intermountain, LBF, Athearn, Walthers, Atlas, and Proto 2000 metal wheelsets. The Proto 2000 and the Atlas are the best by far. It's not cost, it's my personal preference. As far as a "blob" of plastic? Not if you take them out of the package right. It's easy to nick or cut the axle end when opening the package.

Another thing about P2K is customer service. If you get a bad set, send them back. You'll get replacements!

I'll second that, Micheal. I've found that P2K wheelsets have better quality control than Branchline or Intermountain wheelsets, which is one reason I settled on them. And Kadee wheelsets roll badly, and their plating wears off quickly. P2K axles are not covered by a "blob of plastic" on the ends; they're cast engineering nylon.

[twhite]

I began replacing with Kadee wheels about ten years ago, since I have a garage railroad (the California Basement) and no matter how much you try, you can't fully insulate the room against dust and gunk. Lately, I've been replacing everything with proto 2000 and have had very good luck fitting almost every car I buy. I did find out that I had to end up replacing wheelsets on the Intermountain freight cars with the Protos, for some strange reason. I don't know if it's my track, or my grades (2.4 max) or what, but the Intermountains would derail coming down the grade, even on a straight stretch. but I find that whatever brand of wheelset you use, the main thing is to keep the track clean, and the best way i've found out how to do this is to run at least one train a day. As for the ribbed vs. non-ribbed debate, I know they aren't prototypical for any cars after the 1930's, but they really look COOL when you're up close and watching. Besides, what the heck, it's YOUR model railroad anyway, isn't it?

[Don Gibson]

WORDS OF WISDOM from the Museum Of Science & Industry' (Worlds largest continuos running layout).

QUOTE: Originally posted by DHarrison

At MSI the metal axles will cut the plastic sideframes......Each manufacturer's plastic is different. ......if they (sideframes) were already metal, ...That led us to lube the axle ends.
...we've placed an order for a couple of hundred trucks of various manufacturers and designs too.
David Harrison

Rolling qualities depend on the friction between the sideframes and the axle:
We expect wheelsets to be in-gauge, concentric, and to be reasonably accurate in size, but tend to ignore the other side (more than half) of the equasion.. The composition of the side frame..

DELRIN is supposed to have the lowest friction of the 'Engineering Plastics'. It also costs more. As far as I know only EB (formerly Lindberg) uses Delrin in their trucks. KATO seems to run a close 2nd. Those always pursuing the 'lowest cost' are far more likely to get a cheaper plastic.

Proto 2000 wheelsets are metal and have their axle ends dipped in a slippery plastic material so they do not depend on anybody's side frames for rolling - hence their popularity.. I suspect these will lose their rolling qualities over time and the 'blobs' are rarely centered. They look like Hershey 'Kisses' under a magnifying glass.

If ones goal is to get 'Metal Wheels' per se, lowest price is understandable. To get the best rolling qualities with Intermountai, NWSL and JayBee, the side frames need to be of equal quality.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by michealfarley
As far as a "blob" of plastic? Not if you take them out of the package right. It's easy to nick or cut the axle end when opening the package.

Another thing about P2K is customer service. If you get a bad set, send them back. You'll get replacements!

It will cost me as much to send them back as I paid for them. With an 85% (off center) rate, I'll just get more of the same - or do you REALLY think they'll hand pick them? Their Q.C. is obviously non existent.. Am I finicky about car wobble? YES!

OrsonRoy and Michael: Borrow a magnifying glass, then get back to me.

[Anonymous]

Note also:

Proto 2000 are plastic axles and
Intermountain are metal with insulated wheel on 1 side

[michealfarley]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

QUOTE: Originally posted by michealfarley
As far as a "blob" of plastic? Not if you take them out of the package right. It's easy to nick or cut the axle end when opening the package.

Another thing about P2K is customer service. If you get a bad set, send them back. You'll get replacements!

It will cost me as much to send them back as I paid for them. With an 85% (off center) rate, I'll just get more of the same - or do you REALLY think they'll hand pick them? Their Q.C. is obviously non existent.. Am I finicky about car wobble? YES!

OrsonRoy and Michael: Borrow a magnifying glass, then get back to me.

Why do you feel the need to be a jerk, just because we don't agree with you? What's in it for you to badmouth forum participants or the products they use? If you don't like the P2K's........fine.......don't buy them. I will continue to do so, and so will a lot of people here. Why? Because we've had good experiences. I'm sorry if for some reason or another you don't like them. My cars don't wobble. I have these wheels underneath over 300 cars. Are you sure that you're not folding the axle ends over on themselves when installing them? I've had that happen, but have not yet found a bad set out of the package. Go ahead and state your opinion, but to arbitrarily slam people with your above quote is uncalled for.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

To answer your question, I just spoke to a fellow at Intermountain and he said they make the wheels for Reboxx. Reboxx, as you probably know, then takes those wheels and attaches them to various axle lengths. I think Reboxx must have about 37 different axle lengths and using the chart they provide, you can buy the precise wheelset you need for just about any manufacturer's car. For example, their chart specifies that for an Athearn passenger car, you need a 36" wheelset in a 1.035 length axle, which they have.

Regards,
Mondo

QUOTE: Originally posted by cjm89

Does ReBoxx make wheelsets for Intermountain, or vice-versa?

It's interesting to note that the Reboxx application chart scores the stock IM 33"with Andrews truck at 22 roll test and Reboxx's replacement scores 24 roll test.

IM 33" in a Bettendorf truck scores 18 on the roll test and the Reboxx replacement scores 22.

Out of the box the stock Atlas Caboose, Bettendorf, & Roller bearing scores lower 20s and the Kato truck 23.

The IM 36" was not yet announced.
Other manufacturers stock out of the box scores in the teens.

Reboxx uses a roller coaster(a ramp in the shape of a Circular arc) $40.00 manual device that they use to count the number of times the wheel set is able to climb/descend(repeat)

[BRAKIE]

Currently I am using Athearn's trucks with P2K wheel sets which turn outs a very smooth rolling car..This combination works very well for me and have had no problems to date.[:D]

However,I am taking a very close look at the Athearn's new truck with metal wheels and may use these on future cars..Of course I do not change out the wheels on my Atlas and other like brand cars..[:D]

[AntonioFP45]

Guys, two questions:

Which companies use "Delrin" sideframes?

Those of you with Proto and IM wheelsets: Is the Labelle 106 a decent product to lubricate the jounals after some wear and tear becomes evident?

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

I get a squeal out of my Budds with the 36" IMs. On occasion I use a product called Conducta Lube.

On my Budd instruction sheet a lube was recommended. As I have said many times before, the
Budd stock wheel set had the worse wheel drag I ever encounted thus the upgrade to IM & IM
Ball Bearing.. I might add here that the IM BB is pricey but the Non-BB is still pretty free rolling.

I don't own any IM 33" so I can't compare but my operating test is an independent roll down a 2.6-8 grade to measure the distance traveled.

The Kato A.S.F ride control truck can almost take off by itself and not far behind is that Atlas ACF
Center Flow Hopper with needlepoint axles in roller bearing trucks.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Those of you with Proto and IM wheelsets: Is the Labelle 106 a decent product to lubricate the jounals after some wear and tear becomes evident?

Try not ot use a wet lubricant, except when absolutely necessary. Use graphite powder instead (Kadee sells some). Eventually, the LaBelle will become a sticky mess, and you'll have to go through the pain of trying to clean it out!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

SOME FACT VS. FICTIONS:

1. Contrary to any theories, OIL on your track attracts dust and dirt. ALL OILS.
Transmission fluid is an oil. so are Wahl clipper oil and 'Contact' Cleaners.

Don's so right!

As an illustration:
use vegetable oil (because it's service life is Very short) and spread a bit on some glass.
come back in a day-- it's sticky.

Same goes with motor oil, or any oil-- as it oxidizes, it gets sticky. That attracts dirt.

Use solvents.. and wipe dry.
Test your rail ties if not wood or a polyolefin -- (MFG's should tell us- are they using a polystyrene or polypropylene - th PP is solvent resistant - as is Delrin - styrene is not.).

I'd suggest alcohol or (if rails are not painted) paint thinner. Always test your setup for durability and results before widespread application.

[Don Gibson]

[

QUOTE: Originally posted by michealfarley
As far as a "blob" of plastic? Not if you take them out of the package right. It's easy to nick or cut the axle end when opening the package.

QUOTE: " Borrow a magnifying glass, then get back to me." - DG

QUOTE: Why do you feel the need to be a jerk, just because we don't agree with you? ...If you don't like the P2K's........fine.......don't buy them. I will continue to do so, Go ahead and state your opinion, but to arbitrarily slam people with your above quote is uncalled for.

I was sincerely trying to offer an comparison. I generally do not offer opinions on things I have not had, tested, or compared. Do YOU have a 1.5% grade test track? IF you have really tried the different wheelsets you say - and select Proto 2000 - because they are 'better' (not cheaper) than the rest - be it factual opinion, or defensive posturing - that's your privilege.

If anyone felt my post was a "Slam", I apologize.
On the other hand, I did not call someone else a "Jerk". (I probably didn't need to).

RE: Proto 2000 Wheelset axle ends...
As my post suggested, Michael : "Borrow a magnifying glass, THEN get back to me".

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Those of you with Proto and IM wheelsets: Is the Labelle 106 a decent product to lubricate the jounals after some wear and tear becomes evident?

Try not ot use a wet lubricant, except when absolutely necessary. Use graphite powder instead (Kadee sells some). Eventually, the LaBelle will become a sticky mess, and you'll have to go through the pain of trying to clean it out!

Ray: In my experience:

Oil eventually migrates out of the journal onto the track.
Graphite powder can migrate and short out the insulation on that wheel.
A Teflon grease offers little, if any rolling resistance, without the above faults.

Regards

[AntonioFP45]

Thank you Don,

I'm saving this thread onto my computer. I'll refer to it when I need to perform wheel maintenance or decide to purchase new axles.

Cheers in Run 8!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Thank you Don,

I'm saving this thread onto my computer.

Cheers in Run 8!

Met too, but in hard copy form, all 33 pages.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson
OrsonRoy and Michael: Borrow a magnifying glass, then get back to me.

Will a 20 power illuminated inspection magnifier do?

I just sacrificed a set of Life Like wheels to the scrapbox gods. The axles are one-piece molded PLASTIC. If there's any metal in them, it's hiding pretty wekk, because I'm looking at a cross-section now (Xurons are handy tools). You can clearly see the molding line running from one end of the axle to the other, point to point. You can't feel the mold like on the needle points, so I suppose it's good enough for our modeling purposes. The axles are of some odd plastic-like material (I'm thinking a nylon-based material). Tenax won't melt them, but Ambroid Proweld will, slightly (Proweld works on styrene and PVC). The metal wheels are press fit onto the axles, and I wasn't able to move them, with two pair of household pliers, leading me to suspect that they're attached while the axles are still warm.

As for the needle ends (or blobs), they don't look very bloblike to me. Are they as precise as machined axle points? Nope, but they're good enough for me. My cars roll freely around my 2.25% test track (my mainline between deck 1 and 2) just fine, as well as my 1% test track (deck 3). In fact, if I'm not careful about how I park cars, they'll make it all the way down on their own just fine! (which can't be said about plastic wheels, which I don't use, Kadee all-metal trucks & wheelsets, which I don't like to use, and Branchline axles, which have BAD quality control, and which I use as brakes!). I've only got a few sets of IM wheelsets, and those are on RTR cars, so I haven't looked at them as carefully. Suffice it to say that Life Like wheelsets perform well enough for virtually any modeling needs (unless you want .088 contour wheels), and they're cheaper than any other metal wheelset on the market. If you're retentive enough to want extremely tight tolerances on all your models, buy JayBee, IM and Reboxx. If you want good enough to work well, and something that won't break the bank on a 600+ car fleet (and growing), go with Life Like wheelsets.

QUOTE:
Am I finicky about car wobble? YES!

Why? The real RRs aren't. Strings of empty cars at mainline speeds wobble like drunken sailors, as do slow strings over diamonds and switches. Cars should wobble, under lots of circumscances. So long as the movement isn't enough to hinder tracking, I leave my wobblers alone, to add some character and realism to my trains.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson
OrsonRoy and Michael: Borrow a magnifying glass, then get back to me.

I just sacrificed a set of Life Like wheels to the scrapbox gods. The axles are one-piece molded PLASTIC. If there's any metal in them, it's hiding pretty wekk, because I'm looking at a cross-section now (Xurons are handy tools). You can clearly see the molding line running from one end of the axle to the other, point to point.

I suspect they have a new source.

In the spirit of comradery, may I replace your set? Just send me you Snail Mail address.
D.G.

[joebraun]

I just want to deeply thank all contributors to this entire thread. I have just finished lots of track laying and am just about ready to open up all those cartons and bring out the trains. I have learned much of great substance from all your shared experiences.