Replacement Metal Wheelsets...What to use? Kadee, Proto 2000, Intermountain?

[mondotrains]

Hi Folks,
I recently began replacing plastic wheels with Kadee metal wheelsets. I had just cleaned my track with an expensive track cleaning car I bought from Ton'ys Train Exchange. I've noticed that the brown coating on the Kadee wheels is dirtying my track. It was suggested that I remove the brown coating from the Kadee wheels with a wire brush in a Dremel but now I've noticed that the track is coated with a gray material which I can only assume is the zinc coming from the Kadee wheels...zinc is a fairly soft metal and it must be rubbing off the wheels when running on the harder nickel-silver track.
In speaking to a few other guys, they've suggested that I scrap Kadee wheels and go for the Intermountain wheels which are brass with nickel-silver plating. The claim is that they will NOT dirty the track like Kadees. The only problem I can see with the Intermountain wheels is that they are so "slick" that if there are any areas on my track that are not perfectly level, the cars will roll.

I can get the Intermountain wheels in large volume for the same cost as the Kadee's, so cost is not an issue.

Any comments or suggestions?

April 8th, 11:10 p.m. EST
This was my first posting and I've got to say I've really appreciated all the thoughtful and informed input I've received from so many folks around the country. Heck, several guys I emailed spent their valuable time responding to me...that's fantistic! My wife has been telling me that a "chat room" is the way to go to meet others in this great hobby and get answers and now I'm a believer. My hat is off to you guys! I only hope I can provide some assistance to others with their questions.
Mondo

[dharmon]

I'm partial to IMs. Never had a problem yet with them.

[michealfarley]

Nearly every car in my inventory rides on either 33" or 36" wheels by Proto 2000. I swear by them. I feel they have a truer contour to both the wheel tread and the needlepoint, plus they fit almost every truck frame I have. The price is also very attractive compared to Atlas, Kadee, and Intermountain.

I've had some trouble with the Kadee axles being too long to roll freely in Walthers sideframes. I've had the opposite happen with the Atlas 33" wheels, that they can be too short to fit in most plastic sideframes, but the Atlas 36" are also good. A friend of mine uses a lot of them.

Also, to get a true bearing contour, buy the tool from Micro-Mark that you spin in the sideframe. It's worth the $12-15 over and over again.

I'll even put a shameless plug in for my wheelset "supplier", MB Klein in Baltimore. Cards are half-price, and if you buy a bunch, the shipping will pay for itself.

Micheal Farley
Fargo, ND

[Anonymous]

GO IMs. They are all metal and will have greater free rolling ability. That's why I
replaced my stock 36" Walthers on their budd passenger cars

[Fergmiester]

I started to replace my wheelsets with Proto wheels by Lifelike and have had no problems with coatings coming off and I too use the CMX track cleaner with Goo Gone.

[mondotrains]

Thank you for the note!

QUOTE: Originally posted by michealfarley

Nearly every car in my inventory rides on either 33" or 36" wheels by Proto 2000. I swear by them. I feel they have a truer contour to both the wheel tread and the needlepoint, plus they fit almost every truck frame I have. The price is also very attractive compared to Atlas, Kadee, and Intermountain.

I've had some trouble with the Kadee axles being too long to roll freely in Walthers sideframes. I've had the opposite happen with the Atlas 33" wheels, that they can be too short to fit in most plastic sideframes, but the Atlas 36" are also good. A friend of mine uses a lot of them.

Also, to get a true bearing contour, buy the tool from Micro-Mark that you spin in the sideframe. It's worth the $12-15 over and over again.

I'll even put a shameless plug in for my wheelset "supplier", MB Klein in Baltimore. Cards are half-price, and if you buy a bunch, the shipping will pay for itself.

Micheal Farley
Fargo, ND

[Anonymous]

Hmm.. I am using Kadees right now, maybe I should buy some IMs or P2Ks and see how much better they are.

[mondotrains]

Thank you for your help!

Mondo

QUOTE: Originally posted by locomotive3

GO IMs. They are all metal and will have greater free rolling ability. That's why I
replaced my stock 36" Walthers on their budd passenger cars

[Budliner]

I have p2k cars with the ribbed wheelsets these run very good best but whats the ribbed back do for me ? loadhandling



B -

[Anonymous]

The ribbed back actually is a outlawed technology on prototype roads as of the late 30's.
The wheels have to be turned so many times before they are unsafe to be used (sorta like brake rotors) eventually they get scrapped. The ribbed material on the backs supposidely assist in cooling during long braking.

Now as for wheel sets, I buy P2k metal sets. Eventually all my cars have metal wheels. DOWN with PLASTIC Long LIVE Metal. I feel that the free rolling qualities assist on grades and the fact that they run away on any grade at a siding can be held back with either a bent paper clip or a very large pin.

Buy a pair of line levelers and take the sights install them onto a Track Inspection Car (the one with the clear plastic see thru beds) and use that to build a siding that is level.

As for track cleaning issues, there will always be dirty track. I deal with it when I must.

Lee

[ClinchValleySD40]

I prefer IM but use mostly P2K because of cost. They are also excellent. Don't care for Kadee. Every car gets reamed and metal wheels before going on the railroad (and Kadee couplers).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Buy a pair of line levelers and take the sights install them onto a Track Inspection Car (the one with the clear plastic see thru beds) and use that to build a siding that is level.

Lee

Great idea!! I have been using a level but think your idea is much better.

[AntonioFP45]

[#ditto]

Nearly all of my HO freight cars have Proto 2000 wheel sets. I had been planning on purchasing Proto 2000 wheels for my Rivorossi passenger cars when I read on a thread back in February that there is some type of problem with the Rivorossi trucks that won't readily accommodate the Protos. [%-)]

Does anyone have info on this? I'm building up my passenger car fleet. [:)][8)]

Thanks! AFP45

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

The ribbed back actually is a outlawed technology on prototype roads as of the late 30's.
The wheels have to be turned so many times before they are unsafe to be used (sorta like brake rotors) eventually they get scrapped. The ribbed material on the backs supposedly assist in cooling during long braking.

Lee

The December 2003 issue of MR had a guide to freight car trucks. The ribbed back wheels were made of cast iron with a steel tread welded to the wheels. The ribs were used for cooling the wheels, as Lee stated.

Modern freight car wheels have either a 1W or 2W rating. The 1W is scrapped after the tread has reached the limit of wear. The 2W have a thicker tread which can be reshaped and returned to service. Obviously, the 2W wheels are more expensive, but they pay for themselves because it's cheaper to reshape the tread than to buy a whole new wheel.

[michealfarley]

Yes, there is a small problem with the Rivarossi-Proto 2000 combo.

There are two issues here. The first is you must use the Micro-Mark bearing tool for the axles to fit end to end properly.

The second issue arises if you use the 36" wheelsets, which would be correct. The brake shoes actually work on the 36" wheels, and prevent the set from turning properly. One of two options, either file or remove the brake shoes, or use the smaller, but not prototypical 33" wheelsets. It's all in your preference. All my undercarriages are black, so I cut off the brake shoes, and I don't even know they are gone.

Micheal Farley
Fargo, ND

[nfmisso]

P2K, IM and Kadee use different axle lengths; I measured 1.008", 1.013" and 1.018" respectively. On a truck that is working well with Kadee, P2K wheels will fall out. NWSL offers three different axle lengths and four different treadwidths/profiles for HO standard guage. Reboxx has dozens of axle lengths.

[AntonioFP45]

MichaelFarley, Nfmisso

Thanks!

I would much prefer "36 wheels. I'll try the filing route. [;)] If worse comes to worse, I'll take the shoes off as to me the wheel size difference would be much more noticeable than mssing brake shoes. In my case since Seaboard Coast Line passenger trucks were black, anyway.

I know that there is the opiton of using Intermountains, but in considering all of my passenger cars, the intermountains are expensive. I will, however, try one set. From what I've heard, they're excellent!

Peace out! [:D][^][8D][:)][8)][swg][tup]

[mondotrains]

I really appreciate your input regarding the different axle lengths. I would have hated to buy over 1,000 Proto 2000 wheelsets just to find they fall out of some trucks. I've discovered that I can buy Intermountain wheelsets in large volume for just a little more than Proto 2000 wheelsets. It looks like the fans of Proto 2000 wheelsets might be basing their input mostly on price. The way I look at it, if it costs me 10-20 cents more to equip each of my 500 car roster with Intermountain wheels instead of Proto 2000's, that's a small price to pay given what I have invested in the hobby thus far.

Mondo

QUOTE: Originally posted by nfmisso

P2K, IM and Kadee use different axle lengths; I measured 1.008", 1.013" and 1.018" respectively. On a truck that is working well with Kadee, P2K wheels will fall out. NWSL offers three different axle lengths and four different treadwidths/profiles for HO standard guage. Reboxx has dozens of axle lengths.

[Anonymous]

Mondo,

I like all except the Kadees (I dont seem to have good luck with them fitting the trucks). I usually use proto wheel sets. I have noticed that they have more out of true sets than the other brands. However, I think that replacing plastic wheelsets with any of the sets mentioned in this thread is a good thing and we are talking about shades of grey. The drawback to metal sets is more possibility to short at switch points. Especially a n annoyance using DCC.

Guy

[AntonioFP45]

Mondotrains,

Where are you buying Intermountain wheel/axle sets for the prices that you're indicating? I would be interested if this business deals by mail. [;)]

Here in Tampa, the price difference between Intermountains and Proto 2000 wheelsets is in "dollars". A pack of Proto 2000 comes with 12 axles for $8 ($6 on the web and train shows). Intermountain packs come with fewer axles (forgot how many) and sell for $11 and some change. [B)][:0][:p]

Yes, price is what a lot of us base our purchases on. but I agree with you in the context that if the difference in quality is significant than the Intermountains are worth it.

I currently don't have a layout, just a 7ft x 1ft long multi track shelf hooked to an MRC power pack that I test locomotives and cars on. I haven't experienced any P2Ks being Out-of-Round, but since Trainnut1250 mentioned it I'll double check my cars.

Thanks, guys! [C):-)][8)][:)]

[mondotrains]

I got a quote from a guy at fshobby.com (Flying Scottsman Hobbies) who would sell 1,000 Intermountain wheelsets for $455.00, including shipping, which works out to about $5.40 per 12 wheelsets. Their normal price is $49.99 for 100 wheelsets. Trainquest.com also sells 100 wheelsets for $49.99. I found a site called modeltrainstuff.com that sells Proto 2000 wheelsets for $3.99 which is half of the list price. Therefore, with these quotes, the Intermountains work out to about 45 cents per car more than the Proto's. For a roster of 400 cars, Intermountains would cost $720.00, the Protos would cost $533.00. Bottom-line: It may be worth the additional $187.00 for the Intermountain wheelsets. Heck...when you're spending hundreds...what's another couple of hundred?

Hope this helps!
Mondo

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Mondotrains,

Where are you buying Intermountain wheel/axle sets for the prices that you're indicating? I would be interested if this business deals by mail. [;)]

Here in Tampa, the price difference between Intermountains and Proto 2000 wheelsets is in "dollars". A pack of Proto 2000 comes with 12 axles for $8 ($6 on the web and train shows). Intermountain packs come with fewer axles (forgot how many) and sell for $11 and some change. [B)][:0][:p]

Yes, price is what a lot of us base our purchases on. but I agree with you in the context that if the difference in quality is significant than the Intermountains are worth it.

I currently don't have a layout, just a 7ft x 1ft long multi track shelf hooked to an MRC power pack that I test locomotives and cars on. I haven't experienced any P2Ks being Out-of-Round, but since Trainnut1250 mentioned it I'll double check my cars.

Thanks, guys! [C):-)][8)][:)]

[AntonioFP45]

Mondotrains,

I'll type in those names on my search engines and check them out. If it works out, I'll order a batch of axles. The savings are significant!

Thanks guy, and God Bless!

[Anonymous]

I would go with the P2K becuase i use P2K on all of my cars that i regulay run and i've never needed to clean my track yet and it's been a year. All my cars have P2K wheels and Kadee couplers.

[brothaslide]

QUOTE: Originally posted by michealfarley

Nearly every car in my inventory rides on either 33" or 36" wheels by Proto 2000. I swear by them. I feel they have a truer contour to both the wheel tread and the needlepoint, plus they fit almost every truck frame I have. The price is also very attractive compared to Atlas, Kadee, and Intermountain.

I totally agree [#ditto] I use Proto 2000 on all of my rolling stock. The IM wheels are blackened and don't have the "shinny" prototypical wheel tread.

Sean

[michealfarley]

About the Proto 2000's falling out....

I've never had this problem in 450+ pieces of rolling stock. I have had this prblem with the 33" Atlas wheelsets, but I stated that earlier.

This has been a wonderful discussion of preferences, attributes, etc. It is so much more rewarding than a question as to how much of something I have.

Micheal Farley
Fargo, ND
Modeling the BN in ND, circa 1975

[mondotrains]

I thought Tony's cleaning instructions suggest NOT to use Goo Gone because it leaves an oily coating on the track which will attract more dirt? I have used Laquer Thinner as he suggested, with the windows open to prevent the vapors from killing me and it works fine. If you must use Goo Gone, what I've found is that a cleaning afterwards with Rubbing Alcohol will remove the Goo Gone.

Good Luck!
Mondo

QUOTE: Originally posted by Fergmiester

I started to replace my wheelsets with Proto wheels by Lifelike and have had no problems with coatings coming off and I too use the CMX track cleaner with Goo Gone.

[Anonymous]

I would suggest IMs. Not only do they have metal wheels they have metal axles which will always produce a smoother ride. I've had both KD and Proto. The Proto wheelsets I had were poorly manufactured and the axles were out of shape. I thought this was a one time problem but I've seen this more than once. I've never had an issue with IMs. If you buy them in bulk you will save lots of cash. Don't buy them in the smaller packs ... 100 axles for $50 is probably the best price I've seen.

[Anonymous]

I use all three types on my railroad and the only ones that have caused me trouble is the Kadee....and then only in certain situations.....but I also have the Tony's Train Exchange Track Cleaner used with 90% Alcohol....but the other day several guys from Danville Ky were here looking at my monster....I run Digitrax Dcc....my engines were loping around the track if they would make it at all.....one of them laughed and said that they would let me in on a little secret if I did not tell the world....about clean track....they said to go to the garage and get some Automatic Transmission Fluid and put tiny drops on the track and that it would make my trains run better and the Sounttraxx modules would sound better....I laughed and asked what type Ford or GM....either one they said....so I did try it....lo and behold it worked....my trains run better than ever and the sounds are wonderful....I have not cleaned my track in over three months now and am still having great results....I have learned not to laugh at other folks suggestions for one thing....right now I have about 600 cars and all have metal wheel sets....also the Track Cleaning Car is sitting on a siding not being used.....

Jerry Ashley in Louisville, Ky

[hunter48820]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JerryAshley

....they said to go to the garage and get some Automatic Transmission Fluid and put tiny drops on the track and that it would make my trains run better and the Sounttraxx modules would sound better....I laughed and asked what type Ford or GM....either one they said....so I did try it....lo and behold it worked....my trains run better than ever and the sounds are wonderful....I have not cleaned my track in over three months now and am still having great results....
Jerry Ashley in Louisville, Ky

Hi Jerry,
I've heard that Wahl clipper oil used very sparingly will do the same thing but I've not heard of using xmission oil. Thanks for the info.[;)]

[Anonymous]

I haven't heard about another brand Jay Bee's wheel sets.

I will not use Goo to clean as it makes more of a mess than you started.

The basic trouble with plastic & nylon wheel sets is that static hold the dirt on them and the oil from motors and gear boxes binds it all together.

Frank Carlson