Replacement Metal Wheelsets...What to use? Kadee, Proto 2000, Intermountain?

[Anonymous]

I'm brand new to this form and one of the first things I encountered was a question of how to re-wheel Tyco cars. If you MUST do this and now and then Collectors must, I start by using a 16th/inch drill bit in a pin vise and giving about 5 to 8 turns in each journal. I then install Proto wheelsets. Couplers can also be replaced in the existing draftgear. With a knife, clean off the two flanges at the end. On the pin start with a Kadee 208 red washer, add the insert from the Mantua version of the McHenry couplers or, make your own with a 16th inch piece of 'Antenna Tubing" from an r/c car, Kadee #5s and the centering spring. Purists may not like it, but it works and my Schlitz & Budweiser cars can stay in service.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains

The Devil is making me revisit this topic one more time.....

I had previously reported that I had bought 100 Intermountain wheelsets and found them to be too free-rolling. I had therefore decided to stay with Kadee wheelsets. I have just found another problem with Intermountains.

I just noticed that after several hours of running, the nickel plating is wearing off the wheel tread of the Intermountains. The yellow brass underneath is now showing through. I'm really surprised to see this happen because I really thought that the plating was thicker than that. None of the guys touting the benefits of the Intermountains mentioned this flaw. I guess I have one more reason to stay with the Kadees...



Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Mondo

There are 33" IM for the freight, then you have the 36" ball bearing & 36 " non ball bearing for
passenger cars.
The 36" BB are premium sets and are pricey. I have them on my Budds.
I just took a 36"BB and a 3/4 brass cleaning/polishing brush installed in a 3/8 drill and ran that drill at 1200 RPMs.

Nothing came off.

I think if DHarrison of the MSI sees this post he could give us his opinion since all in-coming
freight cars with plastic sets get up-graded to IMs and those trains run 10 miles per day.

Another suggestion: Call Intermountain. 1-800-472-2530. If there's a flaw they will replace them. They should know about this .

[Anonymous]

all my fleet has inter mountains, they work great and i love that clickity-clack sound[:P]

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: "after several hours of running, the nickel plating is wearing off the wheel tread of the Intermountains. The yellow brass underneath is now showing through. I'm really surprised to see this happen because I really thought that the plating was thicker than that. - Mondo trains.

JayBee (and NWSL) offer solid nickle silver wheelsets . I recomment the Weathered versions as it it shows off shiny wheel treads better.

AGAIN: Oil is oil!. A super thin electrically conductive oil may keep your track clean, but only because the wheels behind the engine are collecting the dirt.
It's much easier to clean track than a bunch of wheels.

Been there - Done that.

[Anonymous]

For HO cars:
I began by using P2K wheels exclusively, then moved up to Intemountain metal wheels which I find roll much better, in a set of regular plastic trucks. Thus making for longer trains. Since I don't run long trains anymore, I'll probably forsake using any aftermarket wheels for now.

For N-scale cars:
I usually retained the stock wheels. Micro-Trains cars didn't seem to need metal wheels, but Bowser cars always seemed to benefit.

Alvie.

[mondotrains]

The Devil is making me revisit this topic one more time.....

I had previously reported that I had bought 100 Intermountain wheelsets and found them to be too free-rolling. I had therefore decided to stay with Kadee wheelsets. I have just found another problem with Intermountains.

I just noticed that after several hours of running, the nickel plating is wearing off the wheel tread of the Intermountains. The yellow brass underneath is now showing through. I'm really surprised to see this happen because I really thought that the plating was thicker than that. None of the guys touting the benefits of the Intermountains mentioned this flaw. I guess I have one more reason to stay with the Kadees...at least they continue to remain silver because they are cast out of zinc and once the coating is polished off (I use a brass wire brush in my Dremel), they look real nice and stay that way.

I have another question though. Some guys responding to this posting had mentioned other wheelsets that they prefered such as Jaybee. I wonder if any of these are made of solid nickel or nickel silver. Obviously, if they are solid, there won't be any plating to wear off like on the Intermountains and no brass will show through.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thank you,
Mondo

[jkeaton]

Thanks, AntonioFP45. I've been to the Eastern Car Works website since I posted and notice that they've got a whole line of trucks they didn't have 15 years ago, including an outside-swinghanger PS 41BNO that looks right for my CN/VIA prototype. But, the trucks don't include wheelsets, so your tip is really good. I'll just check for it.

[AntonioFP45]

Hello JKeaton,

I'm on the same boat as I have 4 Eastern Car Works passenger kits in the streamlined New Haven scheme.

On the For New Haven fans thread one of the posters offered a replacement solution for these "cheesy" trucks. I'm going to click to it and get it to page one as I've got a few posts there.

If by the time you read this you don't find the thread, just go to the top of this page and click on "Search the Forums". Type in "New Haven" or "For New Haven Fans" and then click on Go. A page will open and you should see the thread there.

Cheers!

[jkeaton]

This is a great thread, folks, thanks! As someone getting back into the hobby after a 10 year hiatus, I seem to have a lot to catch up on - at least I now know what to look for in upgrading my old cars with metal wheels and trucks.

Any ideas about what wheels to use in the trucks that come with Eastern Car Works passenger car kits? I have a few unbuilt, 15 year old kits for PS cars and don't much like the looks of the wheels included with them. Or is there another manufacturer's passenger car truck I should be using instead?

[AntonioFP45]

Orson, Loco, Mondo, Don

Thanks!

[Don Gibson]

I have some Jay Bee NEM wheelsets.
I have some JAY Bee NMRA wheelsets.
I have the ''Tool'

I now use the 'Tool' as a last resort .

[mondotrains]

Antonio,
I see some folks have responded to your question regarding where to get the tool to ream out the journals. I just wanted to mention that when I install Kadee wheelsets in a truck, if they don't spin real freely, then I go ahead and ream out the journal on both sides.
What I'm trying to say is to first test out the spin of a wheelset rather than reaming out every journal. You don't want to enlarge a journal if it's okay....then the wheelsets may fall out, especially Protos. I've found that only about 20% or less of the journals need the reaming and I can also tell you that it really helps.

Hope this helps.
Mondo

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Guys,

What is the "Micromark Tool" that some of you have been referring that burnishes or reams out the journals on truck side frames? Does anyone besides Micromark make it and what is the cost?

Donka Shay!

[Anonymous]

I got mine from www.reboxx.com and click on "Products" and scroll down to tools.

[orsonroy]

http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=82838

$10.95 direct from Micro Mark. I'm not sure if anyone else makes these things.

[AntonioFP45]

Guys,

What is the "Micromark Tool" that some of you have been referring that burnishes or reams out the journals on truck side frames? Does anyone besides Micromark make it and what is the cost?

Donka Shay!

[mondotrains]

Hi Guys,
When I started this thread back in April, I didn't expect all the great input I've gotten and I'm real glad that so many of you have found useful information and printed it off.

The most recent input from guys at MSI, where trains seem to run "forever", is very interesting. I especially noted the comment that needle point metal axles have been found to wear through the plastic sideframes of some trucks. I had suspected that Kadee and Proto had used plastic axles for that very reason in addition to cost-effectiveness.

After reviewing earlier input back in April, I bought 100 Intermountain wheelsets and installed them. I did see some wobbling, as had been suggested by a responder to my thread and now, with input from another guy, I've decided that wobble is not an issue, considering the prototype cars "wobble".

The main reason I'm not ready to switch out all my Kadee wheels is because the Intermountains are soooooo slick that they cause some of my cars to roll when I'm trying to spot them on the mainline or a siding. The problem gets magnified when using the Kadee uncoupler magnet because if the car being spotted rolls away from the engine, you lose the "delayed" coupler action.

Yes, even with all my care to level the layout, including installing refrigerator leveling feet on the legs and placing levels all over the place, my layout is NOT perfectly flat. It may be that the Homosote I used over the plywood is not perfectly flat. Bottom-line: I cannot get the layout more level and I'm not sure I want cars to roll when I don't want them to.

I suspect that the folks who like the Intermountains for their free-rolling characteristics may be running long trains and run trains up grades. For folks like me, who run shorter trains (no more than 10-12 cars), without grades, the free-rolling may be more of a problem (again, rolling when you don't want them to).

I used a brass wire brush in my Dremel, as was suggested by one guy, to clean off the black coating from my Kadee wheels and they look much better, with the tread and flange now silver. And, having used the Reboxx tool to hone out the journals on my trucks, the Kadees run very nicely but they are not so slick that cars roll on unlevel spots on my layout. There is just enough friction between the Kadee axle end and truck to NOT let them roll on slightly unlevel spots.

The only downside I've noticed with the wire-brushed Kadee's is that they seem to pick up a little more dirt, now that they have been wire brushed, probably because of the light scratches the brush left. I think with some run time, they will get "polished" and the problem will go away. The Kadees that I didn't wire brush eventually lost the black coating and run cleaner, but they don't look as good because the flange is not silver.

So, to sum up: For now, I'm going to continue running Kadee wheels because they look good, have plastic axle ends that I don't think will wear out my plastic sideframes, and are not so free-rolling to cause a problem on unlevel areas of my layout.

I hope I've not driven anyone crazy with my analysis. I know my local train buddies have just about pulled their hair out every time they come over and I bring up the subject of "wheel analysis".

Have a good day and enjoy those trains!
Mondo

[jrbernier]

Metal heel sets vary. Here is what I have found:

o - Intermountain/Reboxx - metal axles and treads. Very good quality and may be the best rolling whesets in delrin side frames.
o - P2K - delrin axles with metal treads - good value, and seem to roll OK in delrin side frames.
o - Kadee - delrin(or some 'engineering plastic') axles with metal treads. The axles seem to be a very 'soft' materials and wear down quite fast in metal side frames, and are not as free rolling in delrin side frames.

All of the above are 'non magnetic'. I use P2K as the price is about $4/pack via mail order from M B Klein. I do have some Intermountain/Reboxx , as Reboxx has specfic axle lengths.

[Don Gibson]

DEPENDS on where you set your standards:
Trucks have gotten better since the old metal framed Athearn

Anything that won't roll down 3% I replace.
Good trucks roll down 2%
I now use 1.5% to sparate the 'men from the boys'.

REMEMBER it's the combination of sideframes and axle friction that determine rollng characteristics. (All Wheels (good - bad) will roll down inclined track by themselves).

[Anonymous]

Furthur to testing cars to see how freely they will roll, I read here that some test on a 1.5% grade and others on a 3% grade. If a boxcar rolls down a 1.5% grade easily do you consider this very good? Or if it runs freely down a 3% grade is that considered good too? Thanks, don

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by joebraun

I have learned much of great substance from all your shared experiences.

I think most of us learned a needle point or two.

[joebraun]

I just want to deeply thank all contributors to this entire thread. I have just finished lots of track laying and am just about ready to open up all those cartons and bring out the trains. I have learned much of great substance from all your shared experiences.

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson
OrsonRoy and Michael: Borrow a magnifying glass, then get back to me.

I just sacrificed a set of Life Like wheels to the scrapbox gods. The axles are one-piece molded PLASTIC. If there's any metal in them, it's hiding pretty wekk, because I'm looking at a cross-section now (Xurons are handy tools). You can clearly see the molding line running from one end of the axle to the other, point to point.

I suspect they have a new source.

In the spirit of comradery, may I replace your set? Just send me you Snail Mail address.
D.G.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson
OrsonRoy and Michael: Borrow a magnifying glass, then get back to me.

Will a 20 power illuminated inspection magnifier do?

I just sacrificed a set of Life Like wheels to the scrapbox gods. The axles are one-piece molded PLASTIC. If there's any metal in them, it's hiding pretty wekk, because I'm looking at a cross-section now (Xurons are handy tools). You can clearly see the molding line running from one end of the axle to the other, point to point. You can't feel the mold like on the needle points, so I suppose it's good enough for our modeling purposes. The axles are of some odd plastic-like material (I'm thinking a nylon-based material). Tenax won't melt them, but Ambroid Proweld will, slightly (Proweld works on styrene and PVC). The metal wheels are press fit onto the axles, and I wasn't able to move them, with two pair of household pliers, leading me to suspect that they're attached while the axles are still warm.

As for the needle ends (or blobs), they don't look very bloblike to me. Are they as precise as machined axle points? Nope, but they're good enough for me. My cars roll freely around my 2.25% test track (my mainline between deck 1 and 2) just fine, as well as my 1% test track (deck 3). In fact, if I'm not careful about how I park cars, they'll make it all the way down on their own just fine! (which can't be said about plastic wheels, which I don't use, Kadee all-metal trucks & wheelsets, which I don't like to use, and Branchline axles, which have BAD quality control, and which I use as brakes!). I've only got a few sets of IM wheelsets, and those are on RTR cars, so I haven't looked at them as carefully. Suffice it to say that Life Like wheelsets perform well enough for virtually any modeling needs (unless you want .088 contour wheels), and they're cheaper than any other metal wheelset on the market. If you're retentive enough to want extremely tight tolerances on all your models, buy JayBee, IM and Reboxx. If you want good enough to work well, and something that won't break the bank on a 600+ car fleet (and growing), go with Life Like wheelsets.

QUOTE:
Am I finicky about car wobble? YES!

Why? The real RRs aren't. Strings of empty cars at mainline speeds wobble like drunken sailors, as do slow strings over diamonds and switches. Cars should wobble, under lots of circumscances. So long as the movement isn't enough to hinder tracking, I leave my wobblers alone, to add some character and realism to my trains.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Thank you Don,

I'm saving this thread onto my computer.

Cheers in Run 8!

Met too, but in hard copy form, all 33 pages.

[AntonioFP45]

Thank you Don,

I'm saving this thread onto my computer. I'll refer to it when I need to perform wheel maintenance or decide to purchase new axles.

Cheers in Run 8!

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Those of you with Proto and IM wheelsets: Is the Labelle 106 a decent product to lubricate the jounals after some wear and tear becomes evident?

Try not ot use a wet lubricant, except when absolutely necessary. Use graphite powder instead (Kadee sells some). Eventually, the LaBelle will become a sticky mess, and you'll have to go through the pain of trying to clean it out!

Ray: In my experience:

Oil eventually migrates out of the journal onto the track.
Graphite powder can migrate and short out the insulation on that wheel.
A Teflon grease offers little, if any rolling resistance, without the above faults.

Regards

[Don Gibson]

[

QUOTE: Originally posted by michealfarley
As far as a "blob" of plastic? Not if you take them out of the package right. It's easy to nick or cut the axle end when opening the package.

QUOTE: " Borrow a magnifying glass, then get back to me." - DG

QUOTE: Why do you feel the need to be a jerk, just because we don't agree with you? ...If you don't like the P2K's........fine.......don't buy them. I will continue to do so, Go ahead and state your opinion, but to arbitrarily slam people with your above quote is uncalled for.

I was sincerely trying to offer an comparison. I generally do not offer opinions on things I have not had, tested, or compared. Do YOU have a 1.5% grade test track? IF you have really tried the different wheelsets you say - and select Proto 2000 - because they are 'better' (not cheaper) than the rest - be it factual opinion, or defensive posturing - that's your privilege.

If anyone felt my post was a "Slam", I apologize.
On the other hand, I did not call someone else a "Jerk". (I probably didn't need to).

RE: Proto 2000 Wheelset axle ends...
As my post suggested, Michael : "Borrow a magnifying glass, THEN get back to me".

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

SOME FACT VS. FICTIONS:

1. Contrary to any theories, OIL on your track attracts dust and dirt. ALL OILS.
Transmission fluid is an oil. so are Wahl clipper oil and 'Contact' Cleaners.

Don's so right!

As an illustration:
use vegetable oil (because it's service life is Very short) and spread a bit on some glass.
come back in a day-- it's sticky.

Same goes with motor oil, or any oil-- as it oxidizes, it gets sticky. That attracts dirt.

Use solvents.. and wipe dry.
Test your rail ties if not wood or a polyolefin -- (MFG's should tell us- are they using a polystyrene or polypropylene - th PP is solvent resistant - as is Delrin - styrene is not.).

I'd suggest alcohol or (if rails are not painted) paint thinner. Always test your setup for durability and results before widespread application.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Those of you with Proto and IM wheelsets: Is the Labelle 106 a decent product to lubricate the jounals after some wear and tear becomes evident?

Try not ot use a wet lubricant, except when absolutely necessary. Use graphite powder instead (Kadee sells some). Eventually, the LaBelle will become a sticky mess, and you'll have to go through the pain of trying to clean it out!