1) As a Z/Nscale modeler, it is a lot easier to buy good running diesels than steamers. There's no question the locos produced today are a lot better than those from the bad old days of Nscale.
2) For the transition period, you can build a fleet of colorful diesels. Most of the first generation equipment has been done at least once, sometimes twice. Yes, N/Z scale needs a small switcher.
3) The best feature of the transition period may be the wide variety of roadnames. MR seems to be promoting increasing proto modeling over fantasy roads. It's bad enough for ConCor to do locos in schemes & roads that never had them. Don't get me started on the MTL cartoon schemes.
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
Alex
Autobus Prime wrote:Folks:-Snip---"...there are probably a lot of people like me who never knew steam, and *that* fact only increases their interest in the steam era...it's something they can only know through research; models can help bring it to life." ---Snip---
"Models can help bring it to life." Wow! That says it all for me. It won't take ten fingers for me to count the number of steam locomotives I've seen in operation - none in regular service - all of them have been in excursion service and I've never seen a prototype shay (my favorite) in operation. Even so, I'm a steam guy and a shay fan. I railfan diesels, but my heart belongs to steam.
For me, much of the attraction is the amout I can learn about steam locomotives if I make the effort. Throughout the steam era a lot of very smart people tried a multitude of variations to make the steam engine do a specific kind of locomotion, or make them faster, more reliable, safer, more efficient, etc. Thus, hundreds of variations on the theme were created. The volume of information about steam locomotives is vast, colorful, and also finite. It is theoretically possible to know it all, yet it is practically impossible - there is so much to learn. On my layout, I can realistically enjoy them and study them in minature. Models do make the past more real for me.
The other part of the attraction for me is the lack of bodywork - I can see all of the moving parts. As a machine, a steam locomotive is nearly 100% engine - the wheels themselves are the cranks that convert reciprocating motion into rotating motion. The cab is virtually the only component that doesn't contribute to this train-moving mechanism in a positive way.
Yes, I know they were horribly inefficient (around 15%), miserable to fire and miserable to operate, filthy, noisy, and unreliable. They are none of that on my layout. On my layout each one is a tiny symphony of motion, bristling with detail - the modeling equivalent of a fine spring-powered watch mechanism. In my thinking, diesels are more like a quartz watch - reliable, efficient, and precise, but not holding my interest due to their lack of moving parts and lack of character.
I started this thread because I wanted to understand more about the attraction of diesels as objects to model; I've larned a ton. I've also gained a lot of respect for you diesel fans. Thanks to all who have posted.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
my05hammer wrote:There are 2 or 3 Nordbergs just like this one at the Municiple Power Plant in Rochelle IL, they are 10 cylinders, almost two stories tall and I believe that their full power rpm is 150.
There are 2 or 3 Nordbergs just like this one at the Municiple Power Plant in Rochelle IL, they are 10 cylinders, almost two stories tall and I believe that their full power rpm is 150.
Ah, power plant Diesels. That brings back memories of my home town power plant, which had three Diesels and a bunch of steam turbines. When I was ten or twelve or so, the operators were very nice to me and showed me around the whole place. I even learned how to synchronize a generator to the line. I remember standing right next to one of the Diesels (a Fairbanks-Morse, I think) and listening carefully to the noises coming from inside the engine. As I moved along the engine I stopped to listen to each cylinder for a couple minutes. Each cylinder had its own distinct variation of the internal sounds.
Diesel locomotives started coming to our town around 1952. I was very familiar with steam locomotives by then, because my friends and I used to hang around the depot and the small industrial yard a lot. Plus, we took rides on the trains whenever we had a little extra money.
Eventually, I will buy a steam locomotive for my model RR, but right now I have two modern Diesels, my old Varney F3 from 1952, a Budd RDC from 1953, and an old GG1 that I recently bought from the LHS.
I model Diesels mainly because that's what I see in my railfanning.
I definitely have a soft spot in my heart for steam. I remember the disappointment sometime around 1957 or 58 when I went to the B&O yard to take some photos of an EM-1 2-8-8-4, and instead got to watch a trio of Baldwin RF-16s coupling to a string of Taconite. Sure, there are economic reasons for diesel, but I've never seen anything diesel to match a pair of EM-1 Yellowstone 2-8-8-4s doubleheading 140 load of Taconite up a .75% grade on a cold, icy February morning, finally needing a pair of L class 0-8-0s joining on the point, and another couple heading North to do pusher duty. Just think of the mechanical motion of 6 sets of drivers, 6 sets of valve gear, the clouds of coal smoke and steam exhaust as first one engine, then another starts slipping, and after a couple minutes the whole lash-up having to back in synchronization to take up the slack and start again.
I counted 140 triple hoppers and a caboose. By the time the caboose got to me, the pushers had dropped off.
When I retire, the layout I am planning is going to be strictly freelance, the basis is going to be based on a group of millionaires recovering some abandoned track, and obtaining some favorable legislation to let them run about any kind of locomotive, steam, diesel, electric, including some of my 1860 era 4-4-0s, and the Hogwarts and Thomas the Tank Engine equipment I have.
The idea is to have fun and enjoyment. You do your thing, I'll do mine.
I am 38 years old and my father was a certified EMD Mechanic (Not on Locomotives, but standby gen-sets and fire pumps).
EMD's (and other locomotives) have fasinated me since I first saw one. (Nordbergs are even bigger... LOTS bigger, but not as visible, see pic) I love the sound of them, esp. a non turbo EMD with rotted out exhaust.
Diesel locomotives as mentioned before are colorful billboards, loud, powerful, modern, etc.
But... nothing compairs to standing 10 feet from the mainline when the UP Challenger goes buy at 60+ miles per hour. I took my son to see it go buy out in the country one day and took some black and whites of it as it roared by. They turned out awesome. (Undated too, looks like it coulda been taken back in the day)
I guess I am an all round FTN!
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
Interesting thread.
I agree with many that it can depend on what was running when you grew up but the dates noted for the end of steam really depend on where you live. I was born in 1947 but certainly saw a lot of steam in mainline operation as I was lucky to have grown up in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Steam did not end in the mid fifties as noted in one post, in fact steam was still going strong in 1959 on both CN and CP on the Prairies. There is an excellent DVD out called Canadian Steam 1959 from Greg Scholl Video that was all shot in Manitoba with sound. I recall that on the CN west mainline about 50% of the trains were steam in the late '50's as I spent a lot of time in the summer watching the trains. The last scheduled run of a steam locomotive on the CN was a passenger train pulled by a U-1-d Mountain in April, 1960 out of Winnipeg. I remember seeing it go by.
So while I have a few diesels, steam rules on the Mortimer sub.
CN Charlie
Well, having been born in 1939, I guess you might say that I grew up in what is either termed "Steam's Finest Hour" or "The Last Gasp", however you might look at it. Steam wasn't gone from my area until I was a Junior in high school, so I had plenty of time to take it all in. My 'stomping' grounds were the Sierra Nevada around Donner Pass, so I was able to witness everything from 100% steam, to diesel helpers, then steam helpers, then all diesel. It was a pretty exciting time, but for some reason I began to lose interest when steam was gone. Trains still fascinated me (they obviously still do) but for me, personally, the 'edge' was gone.
Probably why my own MR is 98% steam and set during WWII. It brings back some very neat memories of my youth.
Now, if I'd been born in, say, 1969, it probably would be a different story--I know I'd still have the 'train bug', but it would be of a completely different type. Instead of remembering the passing of steam, I'd be remembering the passing of F's and GP's and SD's. And my MR would be a totally different affair.
So in my case, at least, it has a lot to do with what you remember and what excited you initially. For me it was (and is) steam.
Tom
Oh, and PS: My all time favorite diesel? Don't laugh, it's the E-2's on the pre-war "City of San Francisco".
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
shayfan84325 wrote: Ulrich wrote: Although diesels are popular, most modelers even today seem to prefer modelling the transition era...and who can blame them..this was an interesting time when both steam and diesel ran side by side. Not to argue, but my observations are that even the transition era seems to be taking a back seat to more current times - for an interesting assortment of reasons.
Ulrich wrote: Although diesels are popular, most modelers even today seem to prefer modelling the transition era...and who can blame them..this was an interesting time when both steam and diesel ran side by side.
Although diesels are popular, most modelers even today seem to prefer modelling the transition era...and who can blame them..this was an interesting time when both steam and diesel ran side by side.
I have to agree with Shayfan and Barkie. I took a survey in TMRP (My self included) and I think it was almost every one in the survey voted for 70s-80s, or 90s-Present.
My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JR7582 My Flickr Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcfan/
Not really..I remember those days as filthy,trashy and grimy black covered everything..Even the passenger trains was beginning to fade into the sunset..It was not railroad's finest hour and all to sadly it was a shadow of things to come in the next decade.The death kneel had began to chime and the pallbearers was waiting....
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I grew up in Germany as an Army Brat during the 70's. All I ever saw were the Deutsche Bundesbahn diesels. When we finally moved back to the states I saw my first American train. Not sure what it was (maybe an EMD GP-40), but was blown away how it just looked like it had a ton of power. When I was stationed back in Germany, I showed my German neighbor a SD-50 and said the same thing. American trains just look powerful. Also not too many Chessie System trains were steam.
Mike Kingsbury
Modelling the Chessie System on the living room floor when the wife puts the kids to sleep.
My modeling is firmly rooted in the diesel era, partly due to familiarity, partly due to the paint schemes, partly due to the cost advantage.
I was coming up in the 70's and 80's, and I have fond memories of those steam excursions... It was a trip on the Chessie Steam Special pulled by T-1 2101(?) in '77 that really opened my eyes to railfanning as an important part of model railroading.
The more I've learned about my chosen prototype, the operations I model are a mere shadow of what the Western Maryland was doing during the glory days of steam, 1945-54, and even in the early diesel period from 1949 to about 1966. If I had the bling bucks, I'd be running brass Challengers and Potomacs, dozens of H-class Consolidations, and passenger drags behind shiny light Pacifics.
But, as an N scaler, the practical reality is that newer diesel models (even those of older diesels!) are far more reliable, easier to maintain, and much less expensive than steam, particularly if accuracy is an issue.
That being said, I'm sure there are plenty of younger guys who are interested enough in the steam era to do their homework and take the time to build models that scratch that itch.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Guys,One thing many are forgetting the 70/80s was alive with main line steam in the forum of excursions and many young modeler recalls seeing the 765,611,1218,614,1225 and the other steamers that was smoking up the rails.It wasn't uncommon to see a steam locomotive 2-3 times a month in some areas either passing through on a ferry move or on a excursion.
Not the same? Tell that to a wide eyed 5 year old as the 765 rolled by! I recall seeing that picture every time one of the above steamers roll through the area.
As the OP, I'm delighted at your responses; thanks everyone. When I first started model railroading I wanted to model the steam era, but it cost too much. I opted for diesels for cost reasons, so I identify with those who chose diesel with cost being part of you reasoning.
I never would have thought of paint schemes as being such an attraction. Thanks for the insight.
I'm a steam guy I'd like to offer my own perspective: I am too young to have seen steam in regular service, the same with the first generation diesels. I like steam for many of the same reasons that I like Model Ts and BSA Goldstars - They have character. Sure, steam trains, old cars and old bikes are inefficient, noisy, quirky, smelly, dirty, unreliable, relics of bygone eras. Yet, they are really interesting to look at and to watch them run. I like the way my slide-valve moguls look like espresso machines with wheels - character!
If I were running a real railroad, I'd buy the most efficient reliable locomotives I could afford - today's diesels. But I'm not running a real railroad, and now I have enough money that I can enjoy the steam models that I dreamed of in the '70s. Paint schemes are not my thing, so I leave the diesels for you other guys.
Regarding clubs, I was in one for a short period of time. It was just starting up and there was a nucleus of 4 guys who sort of took over. Before we built anything, they started establishing operating rules: Steam would not be allowed on their 1980s era layout. They were similarly inflexible about practically every aspect of the proposed layout. Even though I did not have enough space to build my own layout, I dropped out. Inflexibility just killed the joy I had hoped to find in the club. I kept an eye on their club; it dwindled and died in about a year. My guess is that the other members got tired of the rigid nature of the club and dropped out, too.
finally, I have to tell you about another model railroader I met. He was showing off his layout - it beautifully represented the piston-valve steam era. Yet, in his roundhouse he had a chrome plated diesel - a shiny beast with no prototype. When one of the other visitors asked about it, he pulled it onto the main line and ran it around the layout. "My grandson saw it at a garage sale and spent his own 50 cents to buy it for me; how can I not have it on my layout?" he explained.
corsair7 wrote:But, let's face it older members are really what keeps a club together because they know what most of the rest of us don't and they are very helpful in explaining and demonstrating what it really takes both to keep a club and a layout going.Irv
But, let's face it older members are really what keeps a club together because they know what most of the rest of us don't and they are very helpful in explaining and demonstrating what it really takes both to keep a club and a layout going.
Irv
Absolutely. Their time available and knowledge is what keeps the club going. I don't have near enough of either to participate full time.
I do belong to a club that has a free-for-all mentality. You'll see my fictional modern day Rock Island SD60's running along with the SP Daylight and a zebra ATSF GP9. The operator ages range from the teen's to late 70's. It is a good mesh of age and experience.
There is another club here who models June 8, 1953 at 6:42 pm. If you're equipment doesn't fit, you don't run. There is another club starting here that started out with a "one layout for all" idea but is now starting to "discriminate" if you will against modern day coaler and intermodal modelers.
My point is that clubs change over time. Members loose interest, move, and die. If the club is to continue it's existence it needs to replace members faster then it looses them. Steam interest will never die but will eventually take a minority interest as we get further and further away from that era. The new guys for the most part will want to run what they remember during their childhood. And eventually that "classic" locomotive will be an AC4400. In order to replace members and hobbyists in general we have to get the younger ones interested. If that means starting with Thomas and Percy running as an extra on the club layout then so be it.
My opinion is that a club should be able to accomodate modelers from all eras. While having a string of Trinity jumbo covered hoppers sitting next to 40' refers may not work on your home layout it does work at the club level. I think it will be tough for a June 8, 1953 club to keep replacing it's membership while an ever evolving any-era-any-equipment club should have an easier time.
Demolishing industry, replacing track, and updating equipment for the club is, well, prototypical!
aloco wrote: Paul3 wrote:In part, I think it's the paint schemes. Let's be honest, steam engines are almost 100% black That is the first reason why I like diesels. The paint schemes.Second reason, I was born during the diesel era. There were no prototype steam locos to watch when I was inspired to take up modeling.Third reason. Steam 'snobs'. I don't hate steam locos and I don't dis steam locos, but if I hear/read about a steam fan dissing diesels (i.e. 'diseasels') I dig in my heels further and remain a die-hard diesel modeler. By the way, I have only one steam loco in my entire fleet of HO locos. I run it once in a blue moon.
Paul3 wrote:In part, I think it's the paint schemes. Let's be honest, steam engines are almost 100% black
That is the first reason why I like diesels. The paint schemes.
Second reason, I was born during the diesel era. There were no prototype steam locos to watch when I was inspired to take up modeling.
Third reason. Steam 'snobs'. I don't hate steam locos and I don't dis steam locos, but if I hear/read about a steam fan dissing diesels (i.e. 'diseasels') I dig in my heels further and remain a die-hard diesel modeler.
By the way, I have only one steam loco in my entire fleet of HO locos. I run it once in a blue moon.
macjet wrote: Born in 1975 my idea of a "classic" locomotive is a GP38-2 or an SD40-2. I've never seen an operating steam locomotive outside of the Durango-Silverton line. Steam was gone twenty years before I was even born and thirty years before I was able to lay track on my own. Like anything else I go with what I know/remember.As a side note I think this is a problem with a lot of club layouts. Too many old guys (the ones with the most amount of knowledge) get stuck in this transition mindset and won't allow you to run anything except steam/E/F/GP7 types. This puts off the younger ones (with less knowledge and the future of this hobby) who have never seen this type of equipment outside of a museum. Just my $.02
Born in 1975 my idea of a "classic" locomotive is a GP38-2 or an SD40-2. I've never seen an operating steam locomotive outside of the Durango-Silverton line.
Steam was gone twenty years before I was even born and thirty years before I was able to lay track on my own. Like anything else I go with what I know/remember.
As a side note I think this is a problem with a lot of club layouts. Too many old guys (the ones with the most amount of knowledge) get stuck in this transition mindset and won't allow you to run anything except steam/E/F/GP7 types. This puts off the younger ones (with less knowledge and the future of this hobby) who have never seen this type of equipment outside of a museum.
Just my $.02
Here's my . What you are allowed to run on the club layout is more a function of the particular club than it is anything else. But you don't have to belong to that kind of club if you don't want to. I've been to several but I never joined one until recently. That one is an N-Trak club and they have no objection to what you run on the layout either in the club headqaurters or at shows. And many of the members do model different eras.
Just was thinking, maybe a little off the topic, but I wonder if the increase in diesel era modellers has caused fewer people to free-lance??
I've been in the hobby since 1971; seems to me back then most model railroads were free-lance, with engines and cars lettered for fictional (though realistic) railroads. Now it seems much less common. I see a fair number of people who say they're modelling the "Tucson and Western" but their layout is all UP equipment - if you ask, they'll say the "T&W" was bought by Union Pacific in 1968 and they're modelling the line as it was in 1990 or something, when all T&W equipment was repainted...so really they're modelling a fictional branchline of a real railroad.
It's a lot easier to use decals to add a road number and railroad name to a black steam engine, a boxcar red boxcar, or a Pullman green passenger car than to design and paint a free-lance diesel and passenger paint scheme.
MisterBeasley wrote: I was born in 1947, and I've seen very few steam engines in action. The pride of my childhood Lionel layout was a GG-1, still one of my favorite engines, and that's neither diesel nor steam. My HO layout which came along in my teenage years was mostly diesel, but I did have a couple of yard-sale steamers, too.I planned my current layout to be diesel-only, with the possible exception of an "excursion train" to be pulled by steam. But then, I was at my LHS and he was demoing a Proto 0-6-0 with sound, and, well, it was love at first toot. Now, I've made my layout dual-era so that I can run either diesels or steamers. Gotta love them all.
I was born in 1947, and I've seen very few steam engines in action. The pride of my childhood Lionel layout was a GG-1, still one of my favorite engines, and that's neither diesel nor steam. My HO layout which came along in my teenage years was mostly diesel, but I did have a couple of yard-sale steamers, too.
I planned my current layout to be diesel-only, with the possible exception of an "excursion train" to be pulled by steam. But then, I was at my LHS and he was demoing a Proto 0-6-0 with sound, and, well, it was love at first toot. Now, I've made my layout dual-era so that I can run either diesels or steamers. Gotta love them all.
I am in process of building anew layout that models the Northeast Corridor. I am not sure what part I am going to modle yet because the NEC stretches from Washington, DC to Massachusetts. In any case I am going to have a GG-1 running occassional excursion service. I only saw a GG-1 once during my childhood and that was when we were leaving NYC to go back to Macon, Georgia in 1955. That locomotive has fascinated me ever since.
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:I grew up around diesels and every train I've riden on (with the exception of tourist lines) was pulled by diesels. My first electric trains were all diesels. I've had some steamers over the years but the extra maintenance and care for small detail parts did them in. I run all diesel now with the exception of a tourist train that's pulled by a Mehano 2-10-2, and that runs only a few times a year. My other steamers (4-6-0 Hall Class, 0-6-0 USRA, 4-6-2 K4) are all display queens. My favorite diesels are the E and F units and I have an assortment of geeps that I run regardless of era. It's not unusual to see an E6 and GP38-2 running together on my layout. As I told one of my neighbors, if you expect to see prototype practice here you're in the wrong place. One of my lashups is a F7 leading a GP50. How off the wall is that?
An F7 leading a GP50 is something different, but you need to look u the Long Island railroad. I remember they used to run push-pull service thru Jamaica to and from Manhattan using both a GP38 and either a PA or F unit at different ends of the commuter trains. They probably still do it but I haven't been to Jamaica or Long Island City in a while.
When I was teaching at York College/CUNY, I used to go the 4th floor of the main building and watch the trains running between classes. I even got to see the circus train several times because they used to park them across from the building on a space track when the circus was in town.