My model railroading career has a 20-year gap in it: I was a dedicated model railroader in the '70s, then pressed the pause button until about 2000, at which time I made a comeback. Of course there were lots of changes in the hobby over the 20 years I was away, but one really puzzles me: It appears that the majority of modelers are real fans of diesels; it's something of a reversal from 30+ years ago. I'd like to understad why.
For me, diesels represent technological advancement and efficiency - similar to modern automobiles. They also look so similar to each other it takes a keen eye to tell them apart (also similar to today's cars). With all due respect to diesel fans, diesels just don't interest me very much. What is it about diesels that interests you?
Please, let's keep this respectful.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
shayfan84325 wrote: They also look so similar to each other it takes a keen eye to tell them apart (also similar to today's cars). What is it about diesels that interests you?
They also look so similar to each other it takes a keen eye to tell them apart (also similar to today's cars). What is it about diesels that interests you?
Actually, I could tell you the difference between every EMD from GP7-SD70ACe (The F units are Harder to tell the difference from, but it is possible). There are easy differences to spot in each locomotive car body except for the SD50, and SD60, and some new AC/DC versions. If you would like to know in Depth PM me...
shayfan84325 wrote: What is it about diesels that interests you?
What is it about diesels that interests you?
I grew up around Diesels, so I have a tie in there. I just love hearing the Primes movers (Especially in EMDs) reving up. The biggest thing I like is the sound in the older locomotives; SD45s would have to be my favorite. The SD45 is also the easiest locomotive to spot too...
...I just love those flares. I suppose that it's not just about the looks, but about the sound too. This video I took of 2 SD40-2, and an SD40 rebuild reving up from notch 1-notch 8.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wO1xxAt9gc
I also have many more vids of SD40-2 at notch 8.
My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/JR7582 My Flickr Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcfan/
In part, I think it's the paint schemes. Let's be honest, steam engines are almost 100% black (yes, there are exceptions). A roundhouse full of steam engines can look pretty drab compared to a diesel house full of bright yellow, orange, red, etc. painted diesels.
The other major factor to me is the accuracy that's come into vogue. Diesels were produced in batches by EMD, GE, ALCO, et al. One RR's RS-1 looks pretty much like any other road's RS-1, meaning that manufacturers can make accurate diesels for a lot of different RR's. Steam isn't that fortunate, other than the USRA types (yes, there are exceptions). IOW, folks these days want accurate models for their RR's. It's a lot easier to accurately model the diesel era than to accurately model the steam era.
Don't get me wrong, I love steam, and have been fortunate to ride behind steam in various museums. But I love my diesels, too.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote:In part, I think it's the paint schemes. Let's be honest, steam engines are almost 100% black
That is the first reason why I like diesels. The paint schemes.
Second reason, I was born during the diesel era. There were no prototype steam locos to watch when I was inspired to take up modeling.
Third reason. Steam 'snobs'. I don't hate steam locos and I don't dis steam locos, but if I hear/read about a steam fan dissing diesels (i.e. 'diseasels') I dig in my heels further and remain a die-hard diesel modeler.
By the way, I have only one steam loco in my entire fleet of HO locos. I run it once in a blue moon.
May I quote my Grand pap?
"Any dang fool that likes a steam locomotive never had to fire one of those sons of guns.
I didn't use his "colorful" words.Oh how he hated a steam locomotive.. My other Grand pap loved them-go figure.Both started their long railroad careers as firemen and both ended up in the right hand seat before retirement.
I can vividly recall the last of main line steam in the Columbus(Oh) area in the 50s still I would rather model diesels.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
I was born in 1947, and I've seen very few steam engines in action. The pride of my childhood Lionel layout was a GG-1, still one of my favorite engines, and that's neither diesel nor steam. My HO layout which came along in my teenage years was mostly diesel, but I did have a couple of yard-sale steamers, too.
I planned my current layout to be diesel-only, with the possible exception of an "excursion train" to be pulled by steam. But then, I was at my LHS and he was demoing a Proto 0-6-0 with sound, and, well, it was love at first toot. Now, I've made my layout dual-era so that I can run either diesels or steamers. Gotta love them all.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
One reason I can think of off the top of my head is cost.
It seems like you can get a quality diesel locomotive for quite a bit less money than the same quality steam loco.
I know, the top of the line diesels with dcc and sound can be pretty pricey but the largest fully featured steam engines make them look cheap by comparison.(unless I've been frequenting the wrong hobby shops)
just my 2cents.
YMMV
Eric
NittanyLion wrote:In 2008, he was born in 1963 and never saw steam outside of a museum. If my theory of "what you grew up with" generally holds true (and it seems to. the best cars are the ones from when you were 16-20, the best athletes are the ones from when you were trading their baseball cards or whatever, and so on), its just a natural part of technological progress.
Steam ended in the early 50's. Yes I know there were pockets of steam here and there. But real steam operations ended about 1952-1954. On average by 1955, if you saw a train go by, it was pulled by diesels, steam was the exception by then. To remember anything more than a memory, to have any understanding of what "steam operation" was you have to be somewhere between about 8-12 years old. So that means that in order to "remember steam" you have to be born before about 1947. Anybody younger than that, their "steam memories" are basically fan trips and museum runs.
There are more steam engines produced today in more variety than anytime before. And they sell. So if you run what you remember that means the vast majority of the people buying steam engines are 60+ years old.
I don't think so. The popularity of the 1950's era is because it offers a variety of power unlike any other era, not because people distinctly remember it.
The first F units I can remember seeing in service were when I was 18 years old in the mid 1970's. I never saw a steamer other than in a museum or fan trip. But I model the 1900-1905 era. So maybe some pick something they remember but I don't think it is a hard and fast rule.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
mechanic wrote: One reason I can think of off the top of my head is cost.It seems like you can get a quality diesel locomotive for quite a bit less money than the same quality steam loco.I know, the top of the line diesels with dcc and sound can be pretty pricey but the largest fully featured steam engines make them look cheap by comparison.(unless I've been frequenting the wrong hobby shops)just my 2cents.YMMVEric
DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!
Transistion era: lots of models available, diesels are cheaper than steam locos, I think as more people choose "1953 early diesels" because they are cheaper and more models for that era available, then that will just cause that era to become more and more dominant.
Honestly, I would like to model 1920's but I am simply afraid that the locos will be too expensive and there will not be enough rolling stock available. Hell, I'd like to model the 1850's but I simply know it would be a headache to find anything.
So I guess I am a diesel person by default.
WaxonWaxov wrote: mechanic wrote: One reason I can think of off the top of my head is cost.It seems like you can get a quality diesel locomotive for quite a bit less money than the same quality steam loco.I know, the top of the line diesels with dcc and sound can be pretty pricey but the largest fully featured steam engines make them look cheap by comparison.(unless I've been frequenting the wrong hobby shops)just my 2cents.YMMVEricDING! DING! DING! We have a winner!Transistion era: lots of models available, diesels are cheaper than steam locos, I think as more people choose "1953 early diesels" because they are cheaper and more models for that era available, then that will just cause that era to become more and more dominant.Honestly, I would like to model 1920's but I am simply afraid that the locos will be too expensive and there will not be enough rolling stock available. Hell, I'd like to model the 1850's but I simply know it would be a headache to find anything.So I guess I am a diesel person by default.
Well it's true if you want a BLI sound equipped mallet it will run you $3-400, but if you shop around, very good running and nicely detailed Bachmann Spectrum steam engines are available at a good price. At Micro-Mark the Spectrum 2-10-0 goes for I think $159 with sound, the 2-8-0 goes for about $10 less. Both those engines can be bought "DCC ready" (run on DC, but easily converted to DCC) for under $100 (more like $60-70 range). Life-Like makes some very nice engines, a little more expensive but still very reasonable overall.
There are also a fair number of easy plastic kits available for 1920's era freight and passenger cars, and some very advanced kits too that make what in the 1970's would be "contest quality" models. So there's really no reason you couldn't model the '20's.
Back to engines, for many years steam lagged behind diesel. The smooth running - moderately priced diesels from Atlas for example really had no match in the steam engine models of the 1980's, many of which were holdovers from the 1950's. I think a lot of people moved into the diesel era because of that. Plus decoration improved greatly in the nineties, so you could buy say an Athearn engine and didn't have to choose between painting and lettering it yourself, or settling for a second-rate paint job. But now as noted earlier we have a number of really nice looking and great running steam engines around, which aren't all that expensive really.
BTW steam lasted a little longer than the early fifties; many large railroads ran steam thru 1957-58, even to 1960...but each year the number of engines were declining rapidly, it is true you'd be much less likely to see steam in 1957 than in 1952, even on a road still using steam.
Born in 1975 my idea of a "classic" locomotive is a GP38-2 or an SD40-2. I've never seen an operating steam locomotive outside of the Durango-Silverton line.
Steam was gone twenty years before I was even born and thirty years before I was able to lay track on my own. Like anything else I go with what I know/remember.
As a side note I think this is a problem with a lot of club layouts. Too many old guys (the ones with the most amount of knowledge) get stuck in this transition mindset and won't allow you to run anything except steam/E/F/GP7 types. This puts off the younger ones (with less knowledge and the future of this hobby) who have never seen this type of equipment outside of a museum.
Just my $.02
shayfan84325 wrote: My model railroading career has a 20-year gap in it: I was a dedicated model railroader in the '70s, then pressed the pause button until about 2000, at which time I made a comeback. Of course there were lots of changes in the hobby over the 20 years I was away, but one really puzzles me: It appears that the majority of modelers are real fans of diesels; it's something of a reversal from 30+ years ago. I'd like to understad why.For me, diesels represent technological advancement and efficiency - similar to modern automobiles. They also look so similar to each other it takes a keen eye to tell them apart (also similar to today's cars). With all due respect to diesel fans, diesels just don't interest me very much. What is it about diesels that interests you?Please, let's keep this respectful.
I was out of the hobby for 21 years (1987-2008) until I came back a few months ago. I've noticed the change too. But I don't see it as bad. In fact since I've always liked diesels better than steam I think it's a change for the better.
Years ago steam was more popular since more modellers were familiar with it froim their youth's. Not many can say that today since most of the younger modellers grew up with the diesel. In fact to many of us steam is but an artifact which is encountered briefly if at all. WE don't see a plum of black smoke shooting up from a coal fired steam locomotive as anything but pollution of the air that necesitates washing one's person and clothing not to mention the smell of burning coal.
The manufacturers also seem to be selling much more deisel equipment these days as well. While some of it may be because of demand, but some of it also seems to have to do with the amount of information that is available today on diesel rather than steam locomotives.
Now that doesn't mean that I don't like reading about the past history of American railroading because I do. It's just that it is easier and less expensive to model deisels than it is to model steam both in terms of money and layout space. Steam requires lots of servicing and steam facilities require more space on the layout than do comparable diesel service facilities.
Irv
My earliest memory of watching trains was watching the IC passenger train leave Waterloo, Iowa headed east pulled by an early covered wagon. The main line was about 300 yards from our kitchen window. I would be eating breakfast and wondering where it was headed, who was on it, what were they going to do, what wonderous sights would they see. That was in about '54 or '55 and I've never recovered from that. I don't ever recall seeing a steam engine in operation.
Tom
Life is simple - eat, drink, play with trains!
Go Big Red!
PA&ERR "If you think you are doing something stupid, you're probably right!"
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:I grew up around diesels and every train I've riden on (with the exception of tourist lines) was pulled by diesels. My first electric trains were all diesels. I've had some steamers over the years but the extra maintenance and care for small detail parts did them in. I run all diesel now with the exception of a tourist train that's pulled by a Mehano 2-10-2, and that runs only a few times a year. My other steamers (4-6-0 Hall Class, 0-6-0 USRA, 4-6-2 K4) are all display queens. My favorite diesels are the E and F units and I have an assortment of geeps that I run regardless of era. It's not unusual to see an E6 and GP38-2 running together on my layout. As I told one of my neighbors, if you expect to see prototype practice here you're in the wrong place. One of my lashups is a F7 leading a GP50. How off the wall is that?
An F7 leading a GP50 is something different, but you need to look u the Long Island railroad. I remember they used to run push-pull service thru Jamaica to and from Manhattan using both a GP38 and either a PA or F unit at different ends of the commuter trains. They probably still do it but I haven't been to Jamaica or Long Island City in a while.
When I was teaching at York College/CUNY, I used to go the 4th floor of the main building and watch the trains running between classes. I even got to see the circus train several times because they used to park them across from the building on a space track when the circus was in town.
MisterBeasley wrote: I was born in 1947, and I've seen very few steam engines in action. The pride of my childhood Lionel layout was a GG-1, still one of my favorite engines, and that's neither diesel nor steam. My HO layout which came along in my teenage years was mostly diesel, but I did have a couple of yard-sale steamers, too.I planned my current layout to be diesel-only, with the possible exception of an "excursion train" to be pulled by steam. But then, I was at my LHS and he was demoing a Proto 0-6-0 with sound, and, well, it was love at first toot. Now, I've made my layout dual-era so that I can run either diesels or steamers. Gotta love them all.
I am in process of building anew layout that models the Northeast Corridor. I am not sure what part I am going to modle yet because the NEC stretches from Washington, DC to Massachusetts. In any case I am going to have a GG-1 running occassional excursion service. I only saw a GG-1 once during my childhood and that was when we were leaving NYC to go back to Macon, Georgia in 1955. That locomotive has fascinated me ever since.
Just was thinking, maybe a little off the topic, but I wonder if the increase in diesel era modellers has caused fewer people to free-lance??
I've been in the hobby since 1971; seems to me back then most model railroads were free-lance, with engines and cars lettered for fictional (though realistic) railroads. Now it seems much less common. I see a fair number of people who say they're modelling the "Tucson and Western" but their layout is all UP equipment - if you ask, they'll say the "T&W" was bought by Union Pacific in 1968 and they're modelling the line as it was in 1990 or something, when all T&W equipment was repainted...so really they're modelling a fictional branchline of a real railroad.
It's a lot easier to use decals to add a road number and railroad name to a black steam engine, a boxcar red boxcar, or a Pullman green passenger car than to design and paint a free-lance diesel and passenger paint scheme.
macjet wrote: Born in 1975 my idea of a "classic" locomotive is a GP38-2 or an SD40-2. I've never seen an operating steam locomotive outside of the Durango-Silverton line. Steam was gone twenty years before I was even born and thirty years before I was able to lay track on my own. Like anything else I go with what I know/remember.As a side note I think this is a problem with a lot of club layouts. Too many old guys (the ones with the most amount of knowledge) get stuck in this transition mindset and won't allow you to run anything except steam/E/F/GP7 types. This puts off the younger ones (with less knowledge and the future of this hobby) who have never seen this type of equipment outside of a museum. Just my $.02
Here's my . What you are allowed to run on the club layout is more a function of the particular club than it is anything else. But you don't have to belong to that kind of club if you don't want to. I've been to several but I never joined one until recently. That one is an N-Trak club and they have no objection to what you run on the layout either in the club headqaurters or at shows. And many of the members do model different eras.
But, let's face it older members are really what keeps a club together because they know what most of the rest of us don't and they are very helpful in explaining and demonstrating what it really takes both to keep a club and a layout going.
aloco wrote: Paul3 wrote:In part, I think it's the paint schemes. Let's be honest, steam engines are almost 100% black That is the first reason why I like diesels. The paint schemes.Second reason, I was born during the diesel era. There were no prototype steam locos to watch when I was inspired to take up modeling.Third reason. Steam 'snobs'. I don't hate steam locos and I don't dis steam locos, but if I hear/read about a steam fan dissing diesels (i.e. 'diseasels') I dig in my heels further and remain a die-hard diesel modeler. By the way, I have only one steam loco in my entire fleet of HO locos. I run it once in a blue moon.
corsair7 wrote:But, let's face it older members are really what keeps a club together because they know what most of the rest of us don't and they are very helpful in explaining and demonstrating what it really takes both to keep a club and a layout going.Irv
Absolutely. Their time available and knowledge is what keeps the club going. I don't have near enough of either to participate full time.
I do belong to a club that has a free-for-all mentality. You'll see my fictional modern day Rock Island SD60's running along with the SP Daylight and a zebra ATSF GP9. The operator ages range from the teen's to late 70's. It is a good mesh of age and experience.
There is another club here who models June 8, 1953 at 6:42 pm. If you're equipment doesn't fit, you don't run. There is another club starting here that started out with a "one layout for all" idea but is now starting to "discriminate" if you will against modern day coaler and intermodal modelers.
My point is that clubs change over time. Members loose interest, move, and die. If the club is to continue it's existence it needs to replace members faster then it looses them. Steam interest will never die but will eventually take a minority interest as we get further and further away from that era. The new guys for the most part will want to run what they remember during their childhood. And eventually that "classic" locomotive will be an AC4400. In order to replace members and hobbyists in general we have to get the younger ones interested. If that means starting with Thomas and Percy running as an extra on the club layout then so be it.
My opinion is that a club should be able to accomodate modelers from all eras. While having a string of Trinity jumbo covered hoppers sitting next to 40' refers may not work on your home layout it does work at the club level. I think it will be tough for a June 8, 1953 club to keep replacing it's membership while an ever evolving any-era-any-equipment club should have an easier time.
Demolishing industry, replacing track, and updating equipment for the club is, well, prototypical!
As the OP, I'm delighted at your responses; thanks everyone. When I first started model railroading I wanted to model the steam era, but it cost too much. I opted for diesels for cost reasons, so I identify with those who chose diesel with cost being part of you reasoning.
I never would have thought of paint schemes as being such an attraction. Thanks for the insight.
I'm a steam guy I'd like to offer my own perspective: I am too young to have seen steam in regular service, the same with the first generation diesels. I like steam for many of the same reasons that I like Model Ts and BSA Goldstars - They have character. Sure, steam trains, old cars and old bikes are inefficient, noisy, quirky, smelly, dirty, unreliable, relics of bygone eras. Yet, they are really interesting to look at and to watch them run. I like the way my slide-valve moguls look like espresso machines with wheels - character!
If I were running a real railroad, I'd buy the most efficient reliable locomotives I could afford - today's diesels. But I'm not running a real railroad, and now I have enough money that I can enjoy the steam models that I dreamed of in the '70s. Paint schemes are not my thing, so I leave the diesels for you other guys.
Regarding clubs, I was in one for a short period of time. It was just starting up and there was a nucleus of 4 guys who sort of took over. Before we built anything, they started establishing operating rules: Steam would not be allowed on their 1980s era layout. They were similarly inflexible about practically every aspect of the proposed layout. Even though I did not have enough space to build my own layout, I dropped out. Inflexibility just killed the joy I had hoped to find in the club. I kept an eye on their club; it dwindled and died in about a year. My guess is that the other members got tired of the rigid nature of the club and dropped out, too.
finally, I have to tell you about another model railroader I met. He was showing off his layout - it beautifully represented the piston-valve steam era. Yet, in his roundhouse he had a chrome plated diesel - a shiny beast with no prototype. When one of the other visitors asked about it, he pulled it onto the main line and ran it around the layout. "My grandson saw it at a garage sale and spent his own 50 cents to buy it for me; how can I not have it on my layout?" he explained.
Guys,One thing many are forgetting the 70/80s was alive with main line steam in the forum of excursions and many young modeler recalls seeing the 765,611,1218,614,1225 and the other steamers that was smoking up the rails.It wasn't uncommon to see a steam locomotive 2-3 times a month in some areas either passing through on a ferry move or on a excursion.
Not the same? Tell that to a wide eyed 5 year old as the 765 rolled by! I recall seeing that picture every time one of the above steamers roll through the area.
My modeling is firmly rooted in the diesel era, partly due to familiarity, partly due to the paint schemes, partly due to the cost advantage.
I was coming up in the 70's and 80's, and I have fond memories of those steam excursions... It was a trip on the Chessie Steam Special pulled by T-1 2101(?) in '77 that really opened my eyes to railfanning as an important part of model railroading.
The more I've learned about my chosen prototype, the operations I model are a mere shadow of what the Western Maryland was doing during the glory days of steam, 1945-54, and even in the early diesel period from 1949 to about 1966. If I had the bling bucks, I'd be running brass Challengers and Potomacs, dozens of H-class Consolidations, and passenger drags behind shiny light Pacifics.
But, as an N scaler, the practical reality is that newer diesel models (even those of older diesels!) are far more reliable, easier to maintain, and much less expensive than steam, particularly if accuracy is an issue.
That being said, I'm sure there are plenty of younger guys who are interested enough in the steam era to do their homework and take the time to build models that scratch that itch.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
I grew up in Germany as an Army Brat during the 70's. All I ever saw were the Deutsche Bundesbahn diesels. When we finally moved back to the states I saw my first American train. Not sure what it was (maybe an EMD GP-40), but was blown away how it just looked like it had a ton of power. When I was stationed back in Germany, I showed my German neighbor a SD-50 and said the same thing. American trains just look powerful. Also not too many Chessie System trains were steam.
Mike Kingsbury
Modelling the Chessie System on the living room floor when the wife puts the kids to sleep.
Although diesels are popular, most modelers even today seem to prefer modelling the transition era...and who can blame them..this was an interesting time when both steam and diesel ran side by side.
Ulrich wrote: Although diesels are popular, most modelers even today seem to prefer modelling the transition era...and who can blame them..this was an interesting time when both steam and diesel ran side by side.
Not really..I remember those days as filthy,trashy and grimy black covered everything..Even the passenger trains was beginning to fade into the sunset..It was not railroad's finest hour and all to sadly it was a shadow of things to come in the next decade.The death kneel had began to chime and the pallbearers was waiting....