I agree that it's a question of discipline.
As I see it, we all have constraints that limit what we can do in our hobbies and in life in general. The three constraints in model railroading are time, space, skill, and money. In my analysis, one of these is always the limiting factor that we dream beyond. My space is limited, so I do more super-detailing and tweaking than operating. Of course finances are an issue, too. I love brass rolling stock and locomotives, but I can't bring myself to spend more than a few hundred dollars on a loco. So I buy ancient used ones and bring them up to date. I really appreciate NWSL for the gears and motors they offer.
Sure, it takes time to make a 30 year old brass locomotive run like today's plastic, but time is something I have plenty of. What I'm doing is using my abundance (time) to compensate for my constraint (money).
Let's consider Rod Stewart. I assume that money and space are not issues for him, but time is a constraint. As I read about Mr. Stewat's layout I noticed that he contracts out some of the time-consuming aspects of layout work (wiring, etc.). He uses his abundance (money) to compensate for a constraint (time).
I suspect that we all do this little dance. As I look at the layouts featured in the magazines I marvel at the ways our fellow modelers manage their constraints.
One last case study: I'm an old timer and I admire John Allen's work. I never met him, but I read Linn Westcott's book "Model Railroading with John Allen." Mr. Allen was particularly adept at managing constraints. The track plane for the Gorre & Daphetid is masterful work and he spent years developing it. The layout seemed huge, but it was really fairly modest in size - it was his skill in planning that made it seem so big and yet fit into the available space. The layout was a full time occupation for over 20 years; Mr. Allen lived very modestly so that his investment income and his pay for articles would be enough. Thus, he made more time available to his model railroad. Reading about Mr. Allen, it appears that he really did little else - no family, minimal home/yard upkeep, no other hobbies (that I know of) - I am not willing to give up the other aspects of my life to build a bigger/better model railroad, but I understad that is a choice (I could choose to live like John Allen, but I'd rather not). I really admire the way John Allen made his layout earn its keep: He photographed Varney products on his layout; Varney paid him to use the photos in their adds.
From what I've read about John Allen, he was a friendly and likable man. I look at pictures of his work and admire his skill and dedication. I wish I could have met him, and maybe seen the layout in person. I also admire the way he used his skills as a model builder and photographer to overcome the other constraints. I'm grateful to him and all the other skilled modelers who have shared their techniques so that we might grow in our hobby.
In the final analysis, it may be that skill is the greatest constraint of all, because the greater your skill the less constraining the other factors become.
One last note: I have a friend who has too little space for a real layout. He joined a modular layout club and builds modules - he has a ball with this approach to the hobby. A side benefit he receives is the social aspect of being in a club.
My advice is to recognise the limitations that you face, and then find ways to enjoy model railroading within those limits.
Let's have fun!
- Phil aka: shayfan
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Complete and utter nonesense....
If you take an annual average inflation rate of 3.5%, over 20 years the price would roughly double. ($200 today = $100.51 in 1987)
Considering everything they throw into loco these days in terms of research, accuracy, and details, we are getting a bargain. (The rivit counters asked for it!)
However you can still get a GOOD quality bachmann diesel WITH DCC for $29-$35 at your LHS (give or take.) These easily match or out do the quality of what was available in 1987.
Heck, even a TYCO Fantasy Diesel would cost about $15 back in 1980!
The one area I don't understand is Tortoise motors and Polyscale paints. Both of them have risen in price considerably more than inflation. It's a gallon of polyscale paint worth like ~$800?
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
grayfox1119 wrote:.....we don't know what the word "save" means.....
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
R. T. POTEET wrote: grayfox1119 wrote:.....we don't know what the word "save" means.....I know what the word 'save" means; unfortunately, I also know what the word "tax" means, and you, from Massachusetts, should have profound knowledge of the deepest implications of that word.What am I going to save for? One year in the '80s I saved over $13,000.00 in commissions in Jan-Apr; at the end of the year I discovered that the interest on my 'savings" raised me from the 27% to 34% tax bracket and virtually wiped out my interest; my accountant did a computation and informed me that my "savings" had cost me over $2.300.00 that year; needless to say I am very careful in my saving habits. My investment in the future is to spend today because my hot smokin' Texas Instruments Business Analyst II tells me that, with the current tax structure and anticipation of inflation, today's dollars are immensely cheaper than tomorrow's dollars will ever be. Savings Institutions pay less than 2% on passbook accounts; Uncle Sambo and friends levy duty of 14% on interest. Sure doesn't seem very profitable to me. I could, perhaps, become a saver if and when our congress decided to stop being a spender but I do not loose sleep in anticipation of the arrival of such a momentous event.
Don't you have an IRA (including a Roth IRA) or a 401K or some such account available to you? If you invest in stocks, unrealized capital gains are not taxable. If you're in a tax -deferred account, any capital gains, interest, dividends, etc., are not taxed unless withdrawn. BTW, dividends in taxable accounts used to be taxed the same as ordinary income. Ordinary interest still is AFAIK.
I've found that avoiding income is one of the better ways to avoid taxes. I've been out of the workforce since 2001. That's saved me 7.65% right off the top for SS and Medicare. I used to be in the 31% income tax bracket, now I'm in the 15% bracket. Every time I get the urge to return to the workforce, I think how much it will cost me to do so. It's amazing how fast the urge goes away when you calculate the actual costs of holding down a job.
Whoops, we're getting off topic here. Sorry 'bout that.
Andre
Now there's a tangent! Don't get me started on taxes!!
I've been a model railroader for a long time (decades) and one thing that is constant is that there is always inventory at the hobby store that I want to buy, but I can't (or choose not to) because of the price. Isn't that how all things are? If I could have bought a Mercedes for the price of my Scion, I'd have bought the Mercedes. Most of us economize as a part of our day to day activities. Nearly every decision we make has an economic component to it. We might as well accept it as a fact of life - stuff costs more than we wish it did: trains, cars, houses, food, clothes, gas, college, healthcare, haircuts, etc., etc., etc.
I like the way we can each approach model railroading our own way. For me, I don't think of having a layout as much as building a layout; it's the process I enjoy not a collection of products that I buy. I see adds where experts offer to build layouts for customers - sort of the ultimate ready-to-run approach; their customers look at the hobby differently than I do; they're not wrong, just different. Some model railroaders build rolling stock and/or structures, but don't have a layout (when I'm cleaning my track I think of these guys, with a little envy), and others just collect the locomotives and rolling stock (I've never really understood this approach - to each his own). I believe that each of us chooses our approach based on our own situation, and economics is part of that choice.
I also believe that finances are not the most important issue in our hobby. If John Allen had a budget of $10,000 to build a layout and I had the same budget, guess who'd come up with the more impressive layout? It wouldn't be me. I read once that John Allen invested less than 50 cents in his NMRA award winning engine house. Granted, that was 60 years ago, but even adjusted for inflation that stucture could be built for less than $20 - by a skilled modeler.
One of the things that can be true about our hobby is that as our skills increase our results get better and our costs may well decrease. Is there another hobby that costs less the better you get at it? Yesterday evening I built and installed a brass ground throw that looks better and works better than the plastic ones that cost $3-4. Mine cost about a dime in material and a couple of hours work. I urge all of you who find it hard to deal with the cost of the hobby to focus on your skills - you may find what I did: the cost of the hobby goes down and your satisfaction/pleasure increases.
When I get a chance, I'll post a photo of the ground throw. Do you think there is any interest in an article about how I make them?
-Phil
shayfan84325 wrote: Now there's a tangent! Don't get me started on taxes!!I've been a model railroader for a long time (decades) and one thing that is constant is that there is always inventory at the hobby store that I want to buy, but I can't (or choose not to) because of the price. Isn't that how all things are? If I could have bought a Mercedes for the price of my Scion, I'd have bought the Mercedes. Most of us economize as a part of our day to day activities. Nearly every decision we make has an economic component to it. We might as well accept it as a fact of life - stuff costs more than we wish it did: trains, cars, houses, food, clothes, gas, college, healthcare, haircuts, etc., etc., etc.I like the way we can each approach model railroading our own way. For me, I don't think of having a layout as much as building a layout; it's the process I enjoy not a collection of products that I buy. I see adds where experts offer to build layouts for customers - sort of the ultimate ready-to-run approach; their customers look at the hobby differently than I do; they're not wrong, just different. Some model railroaders build rolling stock and/or structures, but don't have a layout (when I'm cleaning my track I think of these guys, with a little envy), and others just collect the locomotives and rolling stock (I've never really understood this approach - to each his own). I believe that each of us chooses our approach based on our own situation, and economics is part of that choice.I also believe that finances are not the most important issue in our hobby. If John Allen had a budget of $10,000 to build a layout and I had the same budget, guess who'd come up with the more impressive layout? It wouldn't be me. I read once that John Allen invested less than 50 cents in his NMRA award winning engine house. Granted, that was 60 years ago, but even adjusted for inflation that stucture could be built for less than $20 - by a skilled modeler.One of the things that can be true about our hobby is that as our skills increase our results get better and our costs may well decrease. Is there another hobby that costs less the better you get at it? Yesterday evening I built and installed a brass ground throw that looks better and works better than the plastic ones that cost $3-4. Mine cost about a dime in material and a couple of hours work. I urge all of you who find it hard to deal with the cost of the hobby to focus on your skills - you may find what I did: the cost of the hobby goes down and your satisfaction/pleasure increases.When I get a chance, I'll post a photo of the ground throw. Do you think there is any interest in an article about how I make them?-Phil
Yeah Phil my father was one of those. He had closets full of locomotives and cars but they only way they ever saw the light of day to be enjoyed was if I badgered him into it lol. For 7 years after my parents bought they're house his layout lay in pieces against the garage wall (was rather foolish of him to start building it in a rental home, but I digress). Now it just floors me that it took me harrassing my father to get him to set it back up to enjoy. Because in my opinion if he was a real model railroader getting his hobby up and going again should come 2nd only to food & sex heh.
But I am an operations man. I want to have a nice looking layout with alot of things to do on it including running mainline trains & I want to run it. I remember with slight horror my forays into painting and decaling as a teenager, so that puts me off building my own abit.
Okay, I done the math and over the past 21 months I have spent on average about $280.00 a month on model railroad related stuff.
Is that too much? Not when I remember that $13,000 pontoon party/fishing boat I thought about buying during the summer but didn't.
Cheers,
Ryan
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
I was going to avoid this thread, but then I saw people talking about youth and the future of the hobby and I wanted to offer some insight. I'm not sure cost is the reason you don't see young people in the hobby...but neither is other options directly. Even young people and teenagers have much more money to spend on entertainment these days then in past years.
Yes, there are more options these days. There's tv, video games, computers, and flavor of the month fads and all of that. The interest is still there for model railroading. Since I decided personally to get back into model railroading about a year ago, I've been to three railroad-esque things. WGH on Tour, the Great Train Expo, and Railfair at Stillman & McCormick Railroad park, along with five or six different hobby shops. Every event and shop has had lots of young people at it, ranging from I'd say 8 or 9 all the way through the teens, and early twenties. I personally see these people look at the layouts on display, the new products with great interest. They have questions, they stand patiently to ask one of the veterans of the hobby, maybe a polite hello or excuse me...they are ignored.
Why? I don't know. If initial interest is there, why wouldn't you cultivate it? Take the time to answer questions, explain how you did this or that.
Scenario: A teenager likes trains and cars(for example, you could insert any hobby), he works afterschool, but lives at home so he has some money and free time on weekends. He goes to a model railroad show, thinks it's pretty cool, but nobody talks to him or gives him any information or friendly advice. He goes to a hot rod show or cruise-in, spends the time actively engaging in conversation about restoration, paint jobs, making mechanical solutions, etc. Which hobby is he more likely to pursue?
That's insane right? I've seen this happen in other hobbies, and I admit I've been guilty of it myself in still other hobbies. I'm sure there are those of you out there that go out of your way to help interested youth in your area, appeal to clubs like boy scouts, 4-H (it's not just animals, they have crafting and other areas too) and are doing all you can to preserve the future of the hobby. It's not the majority. More people need to do this.
Yes, there's some very expensive limited sets and such coming out from the manufacturer's right now. Most of it is older equipment. Someone (not picking on them, just using as an example) mentioned Walther's Empire Builder set and it was nice but expensive. Young people never saw the Empire Builder, to them it's an Amtrak train, not a Great Northern Streamliner. The ones that live near tracks and are fascinated by trains don't see steam engines (which are expensive in model form), they see big modern diesels, which aren't nearly as expensive in model form, especially the non-dcc, non-sound ones.
I've tried to make this short so people might read it, but also want to add a personal story. I'm 26 years old, almost 27. I'm not young, but compared to the average model railroader I am. I loved trains growing up. My dad and i had a couple different HO layouts, he took me to ride many local excursions, including a trip behind the 4449. Most my free time was spent on the layout or running trains. It was easy to choose that stuff over my silly Nintendo, or later the Super Nintendo. Then we tried joining a couple different local railroad clubs. They didn't even know the young guy was there. Dad stuck up for his son, when they'd ask how things were done on our home layout, or any questions about it, the member lost interest when they found out a kid, not an adult had done any work. This was repeated in multiple clubs. This would be understandable maybe to some, since I was around 13 or 14 at the time. Guess what, myself and other people my age still get this treatment at train shows and club open houses, even at local hobby shops. No wonder you see so few young people in the hobby, if we're to be shunned most will just go find something else. I stay...now, because I love trains and don't really care what other people think. When I got that treatment at 14, the trains started collecting dust, and when the family moved two years later, I never did build the layout I had planned.
Too long didn't read version:
If you're worried about the cost personally, fine. If you're worried about the future of the hobby, think about the attitudes first, cost isn't the primary barrier.
I don't worry about the future of the hobby, but I am concerned about young people. You make good points. We should all make an effort to nurture constructive interests that we see in the kids around us. I'll never forget the member of the Colorado Model Railroad club who stopped what he was doing to teach me how to hand lay a turnout. I was 14 at the time and he gave me about 90 minutes of insight that I use today (36 years later). I don't even know his name, but he had a patient nature that I've always held as an example. He was a darn good track layer, too.
We all owe a debt to our mentors, we should pay that debt to the kids around us.
I agree. There's no point in bringing up taxes, politics, etc.
I don't see the hobby dying. Let's stay in topic.
-PC
I agree. Part of the trouble I had in my youth starting out was getting the old foggies to take me seriously and actually try and teach me something. Reading a book my work for some and I do learn things from it, but in crafting there just is no substitute for someone getting down and dirty with you to show you how it's done.
"Well nobody helped me when I was learning. I had to walk uphill both ways etc." ok fine, but that should mean you don't want others to go through what you did.
Bottom line in this as in all things in life, it never hurts you or costs you anything to me a nice person. But being a butt head surely can cost you in friends and good times you could have had.
tomytuna wrote:If you really want to cry...try having a daughter who loves horses....then you would just love to change back to model railroading.....lol...Tom
Yeah, there are lots of pastimes that cost more than model railroading and some that cost less. I contend that we can regulate our costs by adjusting our approach to the hobby. On one extreme are model railroaders who pay someone to build their layout for them, and on the other end of the scale are the modelers who scratch-build everything. Of course, most of us fall somewhere in between. The closer one falls to the buy it and run it end of the scale, the more money they spend, but the less time and skill is required; those closer to the scratch-building extreme are likely to spend less money, but it takes more time and skill. In my opinion, everyone on this continuum is a "real" model railroader and you all contribute something to it and help it to grow; I'm thrilled to share the hobby with you all.
I suspect that some modelers feel that they've only "arrived" when their work is featured in a magazine. I believe that there are a number of factors that determine who is featured and who is not and layout quality is only one factor. From my experience, there are thousands of feature worthy layouts, yet there is only space for a dozen or so each month if we consider all of the popular magazines ( I think Model Railroader features three per month, typically). I suspect that they are chosen based on quality, locale (how close to the publisher), scale (so the publisher gets the right balance to appeal to the most readers), era modeled (also to get a variety to have something for every reader), locale modeled (same reason), and I suspect that they like to show some of their advertisers' products in use. It probably helps if you have a friend on the editorial staff.
If seeing your layout in print is your goal, keep in mind that a magazine's primary goal is to sell advertising, and they do this by selling magazines. They give lip service to furthering the hobby and enhancing skills, but look at the space that is consumed with product reviews and how to use a product articles - and advertising itself. Look at the featured layouts (I think it's accurate to assume that Rod Stewart's layout was featured primarily because of his excellent work, but it didn't hurt that his name on the cover probably accounted for increased sales - you sell more magazines you sell more advertising).
In short, getting your work published is a game with an additional set of variables that have little to do with model railroading. I suspect that most layouts that are published do cost more per square foot than the non-published yet terrific layout, because it helps to have purchased products from magazine advertisers incorporated into your layout.
There is a lot to be said for seeing your layout in print for the whole world to see. I'd feel very honored. Given the odds, and all of the factors involved, I also feel that if being published is your measure of success, you most likely will spend a lot of money and be disappointed. I won't say that it's wrong to approach the hobby this way; just understand the playing field is different than it is for those of us who model railroad for other reasons.
Heading to my shop, catch you all later.
Phil, After reading your post re:the high cost of model railroading, I have to agree with you 100% on all points.The points you made were well thought out. I couldn't have said it better myself. I had fallen into the same trap many others have and that is, "you have to spend a lot to get something good". I now build model trains in 1:8 scale using common materials such as 2x4's to mill model lumber and electric motors from discarded toys and sidewalk scooters. But I must add, that I am unique in that I have a complete wood and metal working shop, that is not too common to most model railroaders. I am also retired, so have more time to spend. Even when I was part of the work force, I found the time to spend on my hobbies. Obviously, I'm not an achiever in that I prefer enjoyment in life over work. Sure, it would be nice to have a million dollars, but I'm not one willing to sacrifice my precious time to the detriment of family and things important to me. Family comes first, followed by model railroading. Making lots of money is somewhere near the bottom of the list. Life is too short, so enjoy it while you can.
on30francisco wrote: The older Model Railroader magazines are a treasure trove of modeling tips that stress the use of money saving alternative materials and methods. I've noticed the current trend is to push costly products.
It seems weird that RTR stuff can cost less than the parts to scratchbuild, but there is an explaination: A lot of it has to do with inventory control. If I'm a manufacturer, distribution center, retailer, etc. who deals in components for scratch builders, I have to keep track of hundreds (thousands?) of different items. If I deal in RTR products, I only have to keep track of a fraction of that number. The cost of space for the items, packaging for the items, and inventory tracking labor is so much less on RTR stuff (because of the smaller number of different items) that it more than balances off the cost of the labor to produce RTR products.
Keep in mind that all of our suppliers are working primarily to make money, supporting the hobby is secondary at best. This applies to magazine publishers, product manufacturers, retailers, etc. I'm not sure that capitalism is the ultimate economic process, but it's the best we've got and it has influence in our hobbies as well as practically every other facet of our lives.
By the way, my dad is an R/C aircraft modeler and he has the same frustrations. He can buy ARF (almost ready to fly) models of lots of airplanes, but kits are getting scarce. He'd rather build than fly, so this evolution has diminished his hobby
If we are to stem this tide, we have to maintain a market for kits and components, as well as RTR products. That way there will be money to be made in the business of supplying kit builders and scratch builders, as well as RTR buyers.
Here's to the American way!
PS: I agree that the back issues of magazines are full of tricks for using less expensive materials. I think that's because there was nothing else at the time. Still, it's good information. I also think the writing was better. I like to read Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette because it offers a lot of those same tips and techniques.
I too have wondered about Model Railroader and its focus. I appreciated the recent article about updating a brass loco drive train, but every tool and product in the article came from one manufacturer - sort of like an infomercial. I wonder about the economic forces that drive this sort of publishing. It was good information, but it's easy to see that the true allegence of our publisher is to its advertisers and we readers are just along for the ride.
shayfan84325 wrote: Keep in mind that all of our suppliers are working primarily to make money, supporting the hobby is secondary at best. This applies to magazine publishers, product manufacturers, retailers, etc. I'm not sure that capitalism is the ultimate economic process, but it's the best we've got and it has influence in our hobbies as well as practically every other facet of our lives.
Sad but very true and the exact opposite state of the affairs from a generation and more ago, when spreading model railroading and helping/cartering to the craftsman hobbyist were the main objectives of most of the hobby's suppliers (including the magazines), many of whom operated on a shoestring just to be able to promote modeling a bit more widely.
Now the "modern" way of doing business results in driving many longterm modelers from the hobby. Yup, one more nail...
CNJ831
EVERYTHING costs more. Houses. Autos, Doctors, Dating, and Dying. Get used to it.
CAUSE, is 'people want more money' to do their work - (or did you turn down your last raise?). - Oh. that's different???
Carrying stock costs money. Autos may have hundreds of parts, but $20,000 of every car today goes for 'Heath Care' - (Lee Iacoca) - and this a 'fringe' benefit for American Automobile Workers Union.
OUR HOBBY at one time was 'Building' your own, or Kits. Now it's 'Ready to Run'. Your choice.
WHO was it said "Everyone talks about the weather, but no one does anything about it"? - or to quote Phil: "Here's to the American way! ".
Keep in mind that by understanding that our suppliers will follow the money, all we have to do is buy the things we like and not buy the things we don't like. Our suppliers will follow our money and do whatever it takes to get us to buy their products. If you want Model Railroader to change, subscribe to a different magazine and tell them why you switched (keep in mind that Model Railroader is a product created with every intent to make a profit; it is not a club and we are not members; we are purchasers). Want more clout? Write their advertisers and tell them, too. Don't like RTR? Don't buy RTR. Like craftsman kits? Buy them.
Our hobby is what it is because we made it that way. Want it different? Make it different.
CNJ831 wrote:Sad but very true and the exact opposite state of the affairs from a generation and more ago, when spreading model railroading and helping/cartering to the craftsman hobbyist were the main objectives of most of the hobby's suppliers (including the magazines), many of whom operated on a shoestring just to be able to promote modeling a bit more widely.Now the "modern" way of doing business results in driving many longterm modelers from the hobby. Yup, one more nail...CNJ831
Okay, flag on the play...!
To suggest that suppliers didn't worry about making money in the past is silly. They had to earn some kind of cash or they'd be eating out of the trash. That they did what they did for the love of the hobby is probably true in most cases, but probably not all.
To suggest that current suppliers are only in it for the money is equally silly. Model trains are not Big Oil. Many manufacturers even today are still hobbyists and want to promote the hobby.
Don't know about HO, but here in N scale land we have a lot of shoestring manufacturers alive and well. Like Hell Gate Models, Alkem Scale Models (who also does HO), Fine N Scale Models (I've spoken to their one and only proprietor via telephone; he's a hobbyist first), TrainCat (doing brass bridges), and so on...
The current model railroading manufacturers are NOT giant faceless companies hungry for your dollars and rolling in profits. They have to make money to stay in business (duh, even I know that and I'm just a dumb GI). Guys like Cory Rothlesburger at Atlas are designing new products... Guess what? He's not some CEO somewhere. He's younger than I am and a model railroader. I'm thinking he's not rolling in profits.
CNJ, I respect you as an elder, as a long time model railroader, and a very talented man. But I think you're unfairly characterizing today's manufacturers and looking a tad too wistfully at the past.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Don Gibson wrote: OUR HOBBY at one time was 'Building' your own, or Kits. Now it's 'Ready to Run'. Your choice.
Don,
I agree that RTR is certainly a much stronger force than it was... But some of us still "roll our own." That will always be a part of this hobby as long as some people enjoy doing more than opening a box.
Dave, there are 3 articles of CNJ's faith you absolutely must not question.
1. The hobby is dying.
2. The 50's were the Golden Age of model railroading. I honestly have no idea why anyone who actually lived in the 50's would think this (I remember the 50's fondly, but apparently when I ordered my bifocals, the optician left out the rose tint so I can't see the golden glow).
3. Back then, everybody did it for the love of the hobby and gave unstintingly of themselves regardless of economic impact. Well, maybe except for Gordon Varney, who charged $57.50 for the Super Pacific kit in 1950 (about $500 today). Charged extra for the tender, too. With the $22 "Casey Jones" (about $190 today) in 1950, at least you got the tender. However, you had to drill the holes in the boiler for the handrail stanchions. Oh well, they were trying to make craftsmen out of everybody. If you can't drill a boiler for handrail stanchions, obviously you can't be a craftsman.