accord1959 wrote:This topic always burns me up, Industry can probably eat up 4 to 5 years loss before getting into financial bankruputcy position. I just wish that 1 year they would just come out and say, "yah we've been gouging you all these years, this year we'll eat the expenses and you guys don't have to worry about modeling this year.
And who are YOU willing to carry for a year?
And what makes you think they're gouging you?
Just 'cause you don't like the price you're being charged doesn't mean someone's gouging you. I don't like paying for an oil change, but having done oil changes myself, I can live with it.
Besides, hobby funds are what they call "discretionary". It's at your discretion whether or not you spend it on the hobby, save it, or spend it on something else. Nobody's holding a gun to your head.
Andre
Dave Vollmer wrote:
Very clever, Dave! ROTFL!
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
accord1959 wrote:Well, if you are willing to keep defending them, then the next time you go to a fancy restaurant and see 3 , maybe 4 guys in suits having dinner, it's probably business, and if they are in the model railroad business, I hope they're having burgers!
Defending them? Moi?
Hey, they only get my money if I CHOOSE to spend it on their products.
It ain't like they're providing food, clothing and shelter. You know, the necessities of life.
Millions, nay billions of people in this world have never spent on red cent on model railroading and managed to live reasonably well.
I had dinner with the president of one of the big model railroad companies. It was at a name-brand hotel but, yes, we had burgers. We did splurge on a couple of beers, though.
There is a product line that I know well enough to tell you how much actual manufacturer profit there is. On a hundred-dollar item, there's about enough profit to buy a Happy Meal at Mickey D's.
HOW ABOUT 'The High Cost of being Married'?
Every time I see this subject, I Think "wait 'till you start dating" (or buying lunch).
Can I get a subscription, is there an Australian price?
I have $10.00 of my pension left after expenses, don't know if I should waste it on food, or something sensible like this magazine!
Teditor
Huh Dave,That would be a "speical issue"..You should adjust your price to $8.50 US $12.00 Can.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I don't think we are seeing RTR being the death of the hobby. What we are seeing is more realistic operation, the result of DCC and sound. I think the ready to run slant is the result of people having less time. I would rather spend time running trains, than building and painting a box car.
As for the"blood sucking profit hungary" companies. I really doubt the profits are very large for any of these companies. High prices for some things are either due to low volume or high cost of tooling.
I almost got out of the hobby in the 1990's. Then along came the Bachmann 2-8-0 and then the LL 2-8-8-2, then BLI with the sound. I can't think of a better time for the hobby. The hobby now is much more accessable and you can do more.
Eric
About 30 years ago, Linn Westcott retired from Model Railroader Magazine. Soon after, there was an interview with him looking back over his long career as a significant figure in the hobby - from what I read, it appears the he re-wrote practically every article that was eventually published in MR, so he really was Model Railroader Magazine and he was a significant figure in the hobby. I think of him as something of a hero (and I own one of the locomotives from his collection).
In the interview, he describes how he once expected the hobby to die out after the modelers who lived during the steam era died out. Then he expressed his own pleasure that the hobby had gained strength and was including more modern era modelers.
My point is that for at least 30 years there has been discussion that the hobby is dying. All evidence indicates that it is not even sick. The Walthers catalog is as big as any catalog I receive and train shows are jam packed with spectators and modelers. Many of the modelers are a generation or two behind me, and there's one young man in Orem that does absolutely marvelous work. He works at the LHS, so I assume that he gets good prices, but what he does on his layout - it looks real, better than realistic. I'd love to be half as good as this man who's less than half my age. He and I have had a number of great conversations and the years between us seem non-existant. I've learned some great stuff from him.
So, there are good/great young modelers, lots of suppliers, plenty of reading material, thousands of forum participants, and lots of interested folks - Hardly signs of a dying hobby.
Sure, I wish prices were lower; doesn't everyone? Yet, I had to manage my model railroad money in the '70s just like I do now. The amounts are larger, but so is my income. You can use a lot of gauges to measure it: minimum wage is 5.5 times what it was then; a house is about 5 times '70s prices ($ per square foot); a car is about 5 times the '70s price; a Big Mac is only 4 times what it cost then (now there's a bargain); gas is 10 times (sigh). Many model railroading products have only doubled or trippled in the past 30 years.
Looking at the October 1977 issue of MR, I see that NWSL offered their Quaterer tool for $29.95, you can now buy one for $33.95. Their Sensi-press increased from $20 to $80 in the same time frame. An Athern SD 40 cost $9.99 in the 10/77 issue, and now it's $56.50 - 5 times the good old days price (just keeping up with inflation). A Caboose Industries #202 sprung ground throw ran $1.20 in 1977, it's a bargain at $2.95, now. I could go on, but it really appears that the model railroading price increases have not even kept up eith inflation! Could it be that, adjusted for inflation, model railroading has become a less expensive hobby over the past 30 years?
Those are some cold hard facts. Looking at it from my human stand point, somewhere I got it stuck in my mind that 3' of flex track should cost $3 or less; a plastic locomotive should be $19.95; and a Campbell's kit should be $20 or less. Somehow my gut didn't adjust for inflation. When I see a $200 price tag on a plastic steam locomotive, I feel my blood pressure rise. Then I do the math and realize that is only $40 in 1977 money, and it's a better product than the 1977 equivalent. It's really a bargain at $200.
A previous participant in this thread commented that we seem to be looking at prices with a 1970s measuring stick, and while we'd love to have those prices again, none of us want our 1970s salaries again. In many ways the hobby is stronger and less expensive than ever, and I don't see any weak points.
Are there things I'd change? Sure, but I felt that way in the '70s; In the '70s I had to do without stuff I couldn't afford, and the same thing is true today. I didn't let it ruin the hobby then, and I won't let it ruin it now. I urge all of you with price frustration to "let it go" and go build somethig or run some trains.
-Phil
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
elauterbach wrote:As for the"blood sucking profit hungary" companies. I really doubt the profits are very large for any of these companies. High prices for some things are either due to low volume or high cost of tooling.
We could always go back to the "good old days" when every athearn car had the same number on it for 30 years, and we got a new president more often than we did a new locomotive.
As a steam fan, I would not want to go back to even the early 1990's. Think about the lack of vareity. The Bachmann steam engines weren't bad looking, but did run very well at all and the Rivarossi engines had ancient tooling. Brass was the only option for most steam engines and the prices were way to high for most budgets. Sure they haven't made certain engines we might want, but you can't deny that we are in a better position. Plus, many engine have sound.
shayfan84325 wrote:I've regeared a number of my brass locos using NWSL gearboxes. I do have their gear puller, but I chose it because it was available cheap at a swap meet. As a tool I'd give it a C+ (the little V plate is often too thick to fit where I want it to, and it seems to require 3 hands to operate it easily (also because of the V plate). I use my modeler's vise and a block of wood with a hole in it instead of the sensi-press, but most of the time the NWSL shaft is enough smaller than the worm hole that it slips on easily with no tools. A dab of epoxy keeps the worm in place. I made my own quartering fixture out of brass shapes and wood. Does the trick fine. Did you notice in the article that the author didn't use the Quarterer either?-Phil
I've regeared a number of my brass locos using NWSL gearboxes. I do have their gear puller, but I chose it because it was available cheap at a swap meet. As a tool I'd give it a C+ (the little V plate is often too thick to fit where I want it to, and it seems to require 3 hands to operate it easily (also because of the V plate). I use my modeler's vise and a block of wood with a hole in it instead of the sensi-press, but most of the time the NWSL shaft is enough smaller than the worm hole that it slips on easily with no tools. A dab of epoxy keeps the worm in place. I made my own quartering fixture out of brass shapes and wood. Does the trick fine. Did you notice in the article that the author didn't use the Quarterer either?
Phil
If the plate is too thick, do what I did, and take it to a machine shop and, 1. Have extra plates made for it out of hi strength steel in various thicknesses. I had 5 plates made for mine for less than $5.
2. While there have them drill a single hole underneath where the plate goes, to clear a 2-56 screw. Then have a matching hole drill in the plate, below the "V", and tapped for 2-56. No need for 3 hands anymore.
Carey
Keep it between the Rails
Alabama Central Homepage
Nara member #128
NMRA &SER Life member
on30francisco wrote:I too have used NWSL products in the past in particular the True Sander and The Chopper. I'd give both of them a D+. For what they charge, they should use metal parts in place of the flimsy plastic that easily breaks rendering the device useless. I ended up making my own chopper and sander after the NWSL produsts I had broke.
I too have used NWSL products in the past in particular the True Sander and The Chopper. I'd give both of them a D+. For what they charge, they should use metal parts in place of the flimsy plastic that easily breaks rendering the device useless. I ended up making my own chopper and sander after the NWSL produsts I had broke.
I haven't used the true sander, I do have the Chopper. Where's the plastic in it? When I got mine 30 years ago, there were only the masonite base and the "chopping arm", guide plate, angled pieces and all but the base is metal.
I never said that NWSL was the only way to go, but probably should have said that in light of the article, that the author(s) may have felt that the NWSL system was the best to use in the situation. I mean for someone who has never tuned a steamer by regearing/remotoring, being fairly new to the hobby, and that seems to be who the article was aimed at. Or take someone who has gotten most of their info about the hobby from one or two mags. How would they know that they could make their own jigs?
As far as NWSL tools go, I use the Chopper, Quarterer, Puller, Riveter, and Rivet Table. The newest one is only 25 years old and all have done a bang up job. I give them all A's for what they have done and still do for me!
I'll say it again ...
If prices are so high that the companies are gouging us poor model railroaders, then the market is ripe for some business savvy person to move in, undersell them, and clean up!
But that doesn't seem to be happening, which leads me to believe the prices being charged are not any more out of line than the prices they have to pay for the materials and labor to produce the goods.
To afford any hobby (few hobbies are cheap these days), it's all a matter of self discipline. When Athearn first announced their SD45T-2s back a couple years ago, I knew I would need 6 of them for my layout -- roughly $600. I scrimped and saved for nearly a year -- and when they *finally* came out, I went to the hobby store and paid cash for them.
It is possible to plan, make a budget and save up if you really want it bad enough. Beats just belly-aching about it.
It is possible to plan, make a budget and save up if you really want it bad enough. Beats just belly-aching about it. " border="0" width="15" height="15" />
But, Joe, bellyaching has become a hobby within a hobby.
Hi,
went on a trip on Friday and visited a number of hobby shops. By the time the trip was done about $100 was spend on hobby items. These items were two buildings, two freight cars and a MR magazine. These items will be with me for many many years. So their enjoyment was a one time purchase. Sure at first it is a bit of money that was spend but once one considers that none of the above products will cost anything else it is quite a bargain. My point being that yes it might be a bit expensive to get going in the hobby but once established the overall cost decreases while the enjoyment of the hobby does not.
Also it depends how creative a person might be. When purchasing supplies for the construction of my layout (which is ongoing) it usually involves trips to the Home Depot, Michaels, Drywall wholesalers, Dumpsters at construction sites, etc. There are many ways that money can be saved and make this an affordable hobby for practically everyone.
If you think that our prices are bad look at the Walthers catalog and check out the prices from the European manufacturers like Brawa, Marklin, Fleischmann, etc.
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
I have to agree with jfugate and some others. the biggest price increases i've noticed came through the last 12 years or so, but with it came alot better equipment, more detail, better paint jobs with more varieties, and more varieties of the models themselves, and technology. this all takes money to make.
before if you wanted a GP40X,SD38-2, or an SD50 you had to take a perfectly good model and chop,chop,chop--cut,cut,cut-- glue,glue,glue and hope for the best. now they just make em' for you. sounds good to me!
You know...
...prototype railroads operate with financial constraints and budgets. They probably long for the days of less expensive labor and fuel. Suppose we look at our own financial issues as being a little like running a prototype?
cjcrescent wrote:I haven't used the true sander, I do have the Chopper. Where's the plastic in it? When I got mine 30 years ago, there were only the masonite base and the "chopping arm", guide plate, angled pieces and all but the base is metal.
OK, I think everyone has had sufficient time to speak their peace (after all, this thread has been around since November). I'm locking this so we can move on... I don't want newcomers to get the idea that this hobby is out of reach for them because of comments from other people who may have different standards. What do I mean? A newcomer can get started with products in a lower price range and those products can completely satisfy their needs for this hobby. To the contrary, someone who has been in this hobby for 20 years will undoubtedly have higher product standards and will desire better products which ultimately cost more and more over the course of time (price goes up, yes, but hasn't quality also jumped greatly?). In essence, I believe each hobbyist should draw their own conclusion. The guy how is perfectly content with plastic wheel sets may feel the hobby isn't too costly, while the guy who insists on metal wheelsets sees the prices continue to go up. It's impossible for one person's opinion to be the same as another's.
Lets move on.
Bergie