I've been reading on the types of newer cars used in the transport of coal over the railroad. I seems the term "Hopper" has been replaced with "Gondola" is this an actual change in car construction or merely a change in terminology?
Steve
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!
Trinity calls their rotary coal cars gondolas and the bottom discharge cars hoppers.
https://www.trinityrail.com/productcategories.aspx?sid=26
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Hopper cars have bottom discharge gates. Gondolas do not have discharge gates. Most are rotary dumped...
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
There's a distinction between a self-clearing car and a non-self-clearing car (although I've never been clear on how drop bottom gons do that make them not hoppers).
Because drop bottom gons don't have "hoppers":
"a container for a bulk material such as grain, rock, or trash, typically one that tapers downward and is able to discharge its contents at the bottom."
Gons have flat floors. Or they DID, back when they had the bottom doors. Hence they had no hoppers.
As is obvious, you can use drop bottom gons to carry bulk loads, or linear items like pipe and rail. Which true hopper cars don't do well at all.
Ed
The essence of the hopper car is the hopper itself - a container with a taper to the bottom. The taper is what helps the loading from the bottom, more so than would just a hole in the bottom for example.
Some gondolas have bottoms that open but they are doors that simply dump the load, and no taper. I have to assume that the mere fact that doors on a gondola bottom swing open does not necessarily mean that the load falls out unaided. More to the point it is not a directed or aimed unloading to a point or points as a hopper would offer. that may be a key definitional difference.
Dave Nelson
Pretty simple. Just Google the names. You will find plenty of images, and descriptions.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
So it's basically a difference in the bottom of the container.
If a car has hoppers, it's a hopper car.
jrbernier Hopper cars have bottom discharge gates. Gondolas do not have discharge gates. Most are rotary dumped...
Au contraire. The D&RGW had thousands of drop bottom gondolas. I just purchased some RTR versions in HO from Intermountain - they are defnitely gondolas and have discharge gates on the bottom.
When you see these drop bottom gon's in trains, they sit significantly higher than standard gondolas to allow for room for the discharge gates to open below the cars. Here is a photo of an SP beet drop bottom gon.
I'm going to have to go with the tapered bottom characteriestic differentiating the hopper from the gondola.
Of course the D&RGW hauled lots of coal and other materials in both gondolas and hoppers. Prior to the 1950's, most of the D&RGW cars used for coal were drop bottom gondolas. When unit trains began to be popular in the 1960's, there was a large production of hi-side gondolas used to haul coal and they were rotary dumped.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I'd call that a Hopper-Gondola, wouldn't you?
Its called a hopper bottom gondola. In the era I model (1900-1905) it was the most common kind of coal car. By 1920 it was surpassed by the hopper car.
Its a gondola because it has a flat floor where the hoppers aren't . A hopper is "self clearing ", all the interior surfaces are sloped. A drop bottom gon is a gon because the area in the center over the underframe and any portions of the bottom that don't drop are a flat floor.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Or surpassed on the D&RGW by the drop bottom gondola in their case.
Neither the KCS nor the DRGW cars are fully self-clearing.
An advantage of the KCS car is that it dumps in the same outline as a regular hopper. So it should work well where there's a receiver between the rails. The DRGW doesn't do that well, at all.
An advantage of the DRGW is that, when the doors are closed, the floor is fully flat. The KCS car looks like the majority of the "floor" isn't there. Not too supportive for a load. And, if the receiving industry is set up for outside-the-rails dumping, it (DRGW) unloads nicely.
Model railroader and Supreme Court Justice, Potter Stewart, said about the hopper gondola controversy, 'I know it when I see it'. ......no ...wait....maybe that was something about movies?
Now if someone wanted to model this.
How would one go about modeling it?
Styrene or 3 D printing to scratchbuild, or find a rotary dump coal car with similar design and kitbash it.
What about cutting two of these and splicing?
Are you talking about kitbashing that?
What were you going to make from it?
Also, Hoppers are more W shaped, while gondolas sit lower and have more of a rectangle shape to them.
NWP SWP What about cutting two of these and splicing?
Sure. It looks promising. There are obvious similarities.
How accurate will the model be? How much work will it take to make it accurate enough for your tastes?
I am impressed with the KCS prototype. It would be a grand model to run!
NWP SWPWhat about cutting two of these and splicing?
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That sounds like an A+ great idea.
How about buildng it and posting pictures in Weekend Photo Fun so we can all share in the excitement?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I'm going to detail it a about as well as a Athearn RTR version of a Thrall Coal Gondola, and the biggest consession would be using friction bearing trucks, unless I go brass, if I can find them cheap enough. Another thing I might not do is have it lettered for KCS, maybe Rio Grande or SP.
I found 10 Roundhouse Thrall Coal Gons for 55 bucks, I might bid on them, I don't know if I will go for exact replication of the KCS prototype as far as the stall spacing and count and such.
NWP SWPI'm going to detail it a about as well as a Athearn RTR version of a Thrall Coal Gondola, and the biggest consession would be using friction bearing trucks, unless I go brass, if I can find them cheap enough.
If you are going to go with metal replacement trucks, Steven, I would just use Kadees. I've found brass trucks to be very tempermental because they can bend and distort easily.
At least that's the case on a few used brass cabooses that I purchased in the past. When I initially placed them on the track, they kept derailing. I soon discovered that the truck frame that attaches to the bolster was not flat but bent. I had to use some flat pliers to straighten them out; not difficult to do since the brass is thin and fairly pliable.
Kadee friction bearing trucks, IMO, would be more reliable, more readily available, and less expensive than brass ones. FWIW...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Why not used the roller bearing trucks that come with the HO Thrall gondola model. Since the prototypes were produced in the mid-1960's and afterward, I doubt they would have had friction bearing style trucks.
riogrande5761We can all give advise till we turn blue but is any of it being acted on in real life?
I have not seen any pictures of previous projects, but they were all way too ambitious that were mentioned before.
I have real hopes for this one. It is a good project for an early attempt, and I am looking forward to the pictures. I am also looking forward to answering questions that will arise, and seeing the final result.
Steven looks like he is on the "right track" with this idea.
I gotta find special trucks because the prototype rides of three axle buckeye roller bearing trucks.
NWP SWP I gotta find special trucks because the prototype rides of three axle buckeye roller bearing trucks.
From earlier "projects" I thought you stated that you weren't so concerned about accuracy. Why not just start the project and let the prototype trucks be icing on the cake? Until you enter it into a prototype kitbash contest, few folks are going to notice (or even care) they are "incorrect".
In the photo of those exotic long hi-side gondola's (leave you to find something exotic to focus on), the left car has 2-axle trucks and appears to be a similar car.
In the end I have to ask, why not just buy freight cars which were more common and save yourself and us a lot of drama?
I gotta cash my paycheck, and I'll order the stuff I need, so far I need two Roundhouse Coal Gondolas, I need a sheet of black styrene sheet, a Zona razor saw, and I tried finding black squadron putty but couldn't so I'm going to get gray. It'll probably be tomorrow afternoon when I order it all, I'm going to get my toolbag to work on the pool pumps at the hotel's right now. It a long story of why both pumps are broken and you probably won't believe me. I'll be sure to post pictures of the progress on the car project.
NWP SWP I'll be sure to post pictures of the progress on the car project.
I will be looking for the pictures in Weekend Photo Fun. You have comitted to posting update pictures before and always fell short.
As I said, I do believe this is the perfect project for you to finally "just do it", and I have faith that you can deliver this time.