I don't use imgur, so I'm no help. Have you read the instructions on the top of the General Didcussion forum? Somebody will be along.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewi OMG, you have a second floor on your shop? Now we find out! By the way, I couldn't get your pictures to open. I get a "File or directory not found". Mike.
OMG, you have a second floor on your shop? Now we find out!
By the way, I couldn't get your pictures to open. I get a "File or directory not found".
I always thought of it as an attic/storage catch all and never really considered it for anything useful. I still need to see if this is a viable option dollar wise. This is also a pretty big untertaking with electrical, insulation, and drywall.
Why am I having trouble with my pictures? This is the second time it's happened. Can someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong?
mbinsewi Your about right, cost wise, a little more. I've underpinned my share of house around SE WI, many of them around the Lauderdale Lakes area. You can do it one wall at a time, but, the best way is to set the house on cribbing, remove everything thats there now, and build a new basement. Plus a lot of the yard is trashed in the process. Depending on lot size, and access, your talking $$$$$$$$. Put it in the office OR..... add an addition to the shop, that you can heat and be comfortable in. Mike.
Your about right, cost wise, a little more. I've underpinned my share of house around SE WI, many of them around the Lauderdale Lakes area.
You can do it one wall at a time, but, the best way is to set the house on cribbing, remove everything thats there now, and build a new basement.
Plus a lot of the yard is trashed in the process.
Depending on lot size, and access, your talking $$$$$$$$.
Put it in the office OR..... add an addition to the shop, that you can heat and be comfortable in.
Now we are thinking outside the box. I don't exactly like the idea of adding on to my workshop but that did make me think of something I haven't previously considered.
This a picture of my workshop from the outside. The footprint is about 20'x30' and as you can see it's a story & a half.
This is just a picture of the acces to the upstairs storage area from inside the shop. That would have to change somehow.
The last 2 pictures are views from the upstairs. As you can see there is a good amount of room up here.
I will have to run some numbers to see what it would cost to finish the inside and take care of climate control. I have an electrician coming in spring to run a new feed to the shop, it wouldn't be much at that point to put a larger panel in the shop to accomodate the extra circuits needed. If you look to the right of the upstairs window you can see where the current electric feed comes into the building but you can't make out the actual wires because they are so small. I would have to see if I can find someone to run a gas line as well for heat. I have had it in the back of my mind anyway to run a gas line because it would be nice to have a furnace it the shop as opposed to just wood heat. I can't commit to this option yet obviously because I have to run it by the finance committee but it could be a possibility.
mbinsewi..... add an addition to the shop, that you can heat and be comfortable in.
Thar ya go, best advice I've heard yet. Sure it will cost,but, you'll have what you need/want
An interesting thread. Over the last year I've been getting back into HO railroading. I live in a two bedroom apartment with my roommate so there isn't a lot of space for a layout. Right now I'm running a =tiny= switching setup on a 12" x 72" piece of plywood. Not exciting but it's fun seeing my locomotives pushing and pulling a couple of cars back and forth. :-)
I can make a 4x8 layout work in my bedroom but it would be quite cozy.
Anyhow, thanks for the ideas guys!
Amanda
riogrande5761 MJPinSEWI I am going to nix the basement entirely. First of all I would have to break out concrete and dig at least a foot down. The water table is very high here so that would create problems of its own. Without a major renovation and potentially entirely new foundation it is just not practical. Can you stand up at all in parts of the basement? I wouldn't want to jack hammer up the floor either uniless I knew I was going to live there for a long long time and was serious about having a space to build a good sized layout. Apparently you have two real options inside the house: 1) HO a small switching layout or ISL (Industrial Switching layout), or 2) N scale where you could have a layout to run trains in a continuous fashion.
MJPinSEWI I am going to nix the basement entirely. First of all I would have to break out concrete and dig at least a foot down. The water table is very high here so that would create problems of its own. Without a major renovation and potentially entirely new foundation it is just not practical.
I am going to nix the basement entirely. First of all I would have to break out concrete and dig at least a foot down. The water table is very high here so that would create problems of its own. Without a major renovation and potentially entirely new foundation it is just not practical.
Can you stand up at all in parts of the basement? I wouldn't want to jack hammer up the floor either uniless I knew I was going to live there for a long long time and was serious about having a space to build a good sized layout.
Apparently you have two real options inside the house:
1) HO a small switching layout or ISL (Industrial Switching layout), or
2) N scale where you could have a layout to run trains in a continuous fashion.
No, I can’t stand up straight anywhere without hitting my head and the only room in the basement that is large enough to accommodate a decent size layout is more of a crawl space as it’s only a little over 4’. If a guy was going to go to that length it would almost make more sense to put an entirely new foundation under the house. If I had to dig down 2-3’ I’m sure it would compromise the footings & make more issues from there. I would be willing to bet a project that size would cost in excess of 30K which I am not willing to spend. Our house was built in 1880 and to start moving things and replacing foundation walls would cause huge problems upstairs. So the basement is out.
Yep, I think we've covered all of mr. MJP's options, as to what we know about is house and space, in full circle.
We can't make up the OP's mind about space for his layout.
If he's serious about a layout, time for him to make it work.
Keep us posted!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
[quote user="rrinker"]
A 4x8 is really a huge space waster, it takes WAY more than 4x8 of floor space to build and run it. A shelf type layout would be much more compatible with the other use of the office space, and offer more possibilities, just maybe not continuous running. At a reasonable stnading height, it would go over chairs and desks, so you might be able to run it along at least 3 of the walls, resulting in a much longer run than a loop on a 4x8. Limited spac e- forget the double tracked main. Model a branch line.
Unless you cna easily make the basement more livable - dehumidifier for the dampness, space heater for the cold, more lights - it will end up being a place you don't want to be, and in a less than ideal environment, lack of running will cause perpetual issues witht he layout itself. But again consider going around the walls on shelved 2' wide or less. You'll get way more layout in the same space as a 4x8, AND, since you don't have to reach over a 4' wide peice of plywood to build things, you don't necessarily have to work standing up to build it. Maybe a tall stool to build, with the height set to operate from a regular office chair. But only if you can improve the environment down there.
--Randy
[/quote
the only reason I was thinking 4’x8’ was if I’d build it in my shop and have it suspended so I could raise it up out of the way for other projects. I’ve pretty much gotten away from that idea due to the temperature swings out there.
UNCLEBUTCH Not meaning to beat a dead horse;; Maybe reconsider the basement? We have an old farm house,built 1894. Stairs are steep,walls are field stone,floor is concrete but was finshed with a rake,can still see the teeth marks. Only light when I started was a 40W bulb on a cord. Cieling is hand cut beams/boards. Low hanging pipes and support members,I can stand under most of them, after the 3rd or 4th time you rember where the low ones are. Heat comes from a Mr. Heater Big Buddy. Didn't even go down there yesterday.On a good/bad rain, I get water coming in, some time up to a inch on the north wall. I sure wouldn't call it nice, but it is workable. And I don't have to share the space with anyone or anything else, My trade offs
Not meaning to beat a dead horse;; Maybe reconsider the basement?
We have an old farm house,built 1894. Stairs are steep,walls are field stone,floor is concrete but was finshed with a rake,can still see the teeth marks. Only light when I started was a 40W bulb on a cord. Cieling is hand cut beams/boards. Low hanging pipes and support members,I can stand under most of them, after the 3rd or 4th time you rember where the low ones are. Heat comes from a Mr. Heater Big Buddy. Didn't even go down there yesterday.On a good/bad rain, I get water coming in, some time up to a inch on the north wall.
I sure wouldn't call it nice, but it is workable. And I don't have to share the space with anyone or anything else, My trade offs
Have you checked out the availability of any clubs in your area? Yeah, there's some social and inconvenience factors involved, but I've been without a layout for a number of years and my club involvement nicely maintains my operational needs. That would make the consideration of a shelf switching operation more acceptable at home. You could get your continuous operations need met elsewhere.
Life is always creating "boxes" that seem to limit what we can to do, both short and long term. But there's lots of those boxes that we're able to step out of. It's just that the options haven't yet occurred to us. What about the club alternative, at least in the interim. Some day you may be able to move to a place that will accommodate your modeling dreams.
John
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have been in basements (older homes) which are simply not suited to a model railroad location. With enough money any basement can be made wonderful, I am sure. With enough money you can do many things.
One possibility that might be explored for someone in the OP's position is the layout that folds up against a wall, so the question there is more, "do you have a wall upstairs that could accomodate a 1' or so thick tall book-case looking piece of woodworking that if some furniture was moved a bit could be folded down?" MR has had some articles and John Armstrong's lesser-known book "Creative Layout Design" had his "Murphy Bed & Credenza" layout plan. In N scale you probably wouldn't even need to worry much about the height of structures, trees or other scenic features. In HO you'd need to do some planning and compromising.
It's a rare house or condo that does not have at least that kind of room. Whether it is "politically" possible is another matter.
Dave Nelson
MJPinSEWI The more layouts I look at the more I realize some people are cramming too much track in and anot enough room for other things. Sometimes less is more
UNCLEBUTCH Not meaning to beat a dead horse;; Maybe reconsider the basement?
Personally that would be a strong consideration by me too.
We have an old farm house,built 1894. Stairs are steep,walls are field stone,floor is concrete but was finshed with a rake,can still see the teeth marks. Only light when I started was a 40W bulb on a cord. Cieling is hand cut beams/boards. Low hanging pipes and support members,I can stand under most of them, after the 3rd or 4th time you rember where the low ones are. Heat comes from a Mr. Heater Big Buddy. Didn't even go down there yesterday.On a good/bad rain, I get water coming in, some time up to a inch on the north wall. I sure wouldn't call it nice, but it is workable. And I don't have to share the space with anyone or anything else, My trade offs
If the ceiling was low but I could stand up in many places, if the space were there and I could use a chair on wheels to do a lot of stuff, the space would a big help.
I remember watching a video of a guy in England who actually built a large and very elaborate layout under his house in a crawl space. In his case I think he was able to dig out some channels for an operator area but even in those channels he couldn't stand up completely. He had to crawl around most of the area which appeared to have about 4 feet of vertical clearance. But he had such a passion for trains he made it work. Of course, passion and motivation was a major factor here. For casual train people, that might never be an option.
MJPinSEWIThe more layouts I look at the more I realize some people are cramming too much track in and not enough room for other things. Sometimes less is more.
Exactly! Some layouts are cramped full of track, and with bridges right next to each other that don't serve a purpose, other than being a bridge, and industries unrealistically packed in together.
There is a thing called selective commpression, and while trying to achive that, it can turn into a slective commpressed mess.
Get your space availiable down first, and then design a railroad to fit, while avoiding all of the above.
Regarding layout environments which you mentioned in your original post, I can tell you I had a layout in a garage which underwent massive swings in temperature from 90's in the summer and so humid you could cut the air with a knife to extreme cold to 0 F in winter and very dry air. It played havoc with the track I laid, which was Atlas code 100 with all the joints soldered except at turnouts. In the summer expansion caused the track to buckle and kink, and in the winter the rail pulled apart and broke solder joints.
MJPinSEWI Maybe I am going about this the wrong way. Perhaps I should be looking at the space available before committing to a scale that works for me and then working a scale/wants/needs/desires into that.
Maybe I am going about this the wrong way. Perhaps I should be looking at the space available before committing to a scale that works for me and then working a scale/wants/needs/desires into that.
If your only in-door locations with temp/humidity control are limited, N scale might be a good way to go.
If it ever does become a priority to build an HO layout, then moving might be helpful is that ever does become an option.
RR_Mel I know how you feel about continuous run. I had three things I had always wanted as must haves on my layout, the continuous run was a piece of cake, the roundhouse/turntable and a double crossover on my main line was not. The turntable and roundhouse were huge, 53” x 33” on a 10’ x 14’ layout. I ended up building my layout around the turntable/roundhouse module. The double crossover was more difficult than the tt/roundhouse. I wanted code 83 track where it could be seen and went with code 100 for my hidden track. My favorite locomotives are Rivarossi Cab Forward and they have large wheel flanges. I tried at least 5 different manufacturers of code 83 double crossovers and not one would pass my Cab Forwards without problems. I used a code 83 Walthers/Sinohara double crossover from the beginning so my track spacing was set at 2” to match the crossover. My Cab Forwards would pass all my Atlas code 83 turnouts easily with no problems so I went with an Atlas #6 single crossover which was extremely disappointing. That was in 1990, I just had to fulfill my needs so finally in 2012 I kitbashed my own double crossover from Atlas #6 turnouts. My goal of the massive turntable/roundhouse and the double crossover was finally a reality. Keep at it and you will find a way to work it out! Model railroading it the greatest hobby in the world. My Layout Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
As much as I would like to have a roundhouse it would simply chew up too much real estate on an already small layout. I am already arguing with myself about a single or double main line And I haven’t even nailed down a location, size, or scale yet. I would like a double but how realistic would it look? The more layouts I look at the more I realize some people are cramming too much track in and not enough room for other things. Sometimes less is more.
riogrande5761 It depends on how important the trains are. Are you willing to sell the house and find a place more suitable? My wife and I were living in a townhouse and for a variety of reasons, which included space for a layout, we sold and moved further out where we could afford a stand alone house with space for a layout in the basement. Layout space was one of our primary priorities as we looked and then moved.
It depends on how important the trains are. Are you willing to sell the house and find a place more suitable? My wife and I were living in a townhouse and for a variety of reasons, which included space for a layout, we sold and moved further out where we could afford a stand alone house with space for a layout in the basement. Layout space was one of our primary priorities as we looked and then moved.
moving is not an option for several reasons. We spent a lot of time and effort renovating our current home to what we want. Unfortunately a layout was an afterthought so I have to work in the confines of the space available.
UNCLEBUTCH Just thinking outloud; Bottom line is,how bad do you want it[layout] ? There gonna have to be gives and takes. The basement is out. the shop is a pretty poor maybe. I would give up on the 4X8. They are considered space wasters any way. So start thinking about a dog bone plan. A narrow shelf with room to turn on both ends. Or settle for a point to point.A smallish switching type set up. Start looking at it from different angles. Not to throw another rock, but you'll need a work space also.
Just thinking outloud; Bottom line is,how bad do you want it[layout] ? There gonna have to be gives and takes.
The basement is out. the shop is a pretty poor maybe. I would give up on the 4X8. They are considered space wasters any way. So start thinking about a dog bone plan. A narrow shelf with room to turn on both ends. Or settle for a point to point.A smallish switching type set up.
Start looking at it from different angles. Not to throw another rock, but you'll need a work space also.
workspace shouldn’t be an issue. small projects can be done right at our desk while larger things would be done in my workshop.
mbinsewi You could always scrap the continuous run thing, and use one wall to do a switching layout. I don't see any other way unless you go back to the shop idea. In the shop, can you just cover it while your doing other projects? It seems your literally against the wall here, Michael. Switching layout inside, or 4'x8' in the shop. Mike.
You could always scrap the continuous run thing, and use one wall to do a switching layout.
I don't see any other way unless you go back to the shop idea.
In the shop, can you just cover it while your doing other projects?
It seems your literally against the wall here, Michael. Switching layout inside, or 4'x8' in the shop.
i agree, something will have to give. The continuous run is something I definitely want to keep, I would rather go back to n-scale than lose that feature. I know I said I wanted to stay away from it but it may be my best option.
mbinsewi I see we must share the same general location. In the office, what about continueing down the wall over the desk? With a return loop on each end, for HO, your going to need a bare minimum of 48" wide, to at least get a 22" or a bit bigger radius, using flex track, and coming right out to the edge. I guess N scale is an alternative, even though you'd rather avoid it. You could have a revolution, and "seize" the office for your space. Mike.
I see we must share the same general location.
In the office, what about continueing down the wall over the desk?
With a return loop on each end, for HO, your going to need a bare minimum of 48" wide, to at least get a 22" or a bit bigger radius, using flex track, and coming right out to the edge.
I guess N scale is an alternative, even though you'd rather avoid it.
You could have a revolution, and "seize" the office for your space.
It looks like we do share the same general location, as well as the same name.
Unfortunately going over the top of the desk would run right in front of the window abd it wouldn't lead anywhere. On the other side of the desk are all of the filing cabinets and storage for things from the store. Taking over the office isn't an option.
Michael
BigDaddy For some reason they didn't and I'm not sure why. Here they are I would strongly suggest not using a space that is physically unpleasant because of ceiling height or temperature. You won't want to go down there. Basements can be expanded. Howard Zane did it a couple times. I'm am sure there are both engineering and financial challenges in that approach.
For some reason they didn't and I'm not sure why. Here they are
I would strongly suggest not using a space that is physically unpleasant because of ceiling height or temperature. You won't want to go down there.
Basements can be expanded. Howard Zane did it a couple times. I'm am sure there are both engineering and financial challenges in that approach.
Thank you for fixing that.
I agree about not using an unpleasent space. I am sure my basement could be made nice & desirable, but would be cost prohibitave.