[quote user="MJPinSEWI"]I have been negotiating with management for some space inside the house but the only room is in the office.
Get air rights as did Grand Central Terminal.
MJPinSEWI So I have been giving this a lot of thought over the last few days. Most people that have responded, myself included, seem to think that the attic space above my workshop would make an excellent room for a nice around the walls layout. It has also been pointed out that it would be a large investment & undertaking for someone that has been out of the hobby for quite some time and may or may not have the motivation for such a large project. So here I find myself back where I started. I have secured a space in our office, approximately 4'x8' in which to build a layout. That would be enough room to build an HO scale switching layout or a nice little n-scale layout. Either one could be 24"-30" wide, perhaps an L shape in the corner and run it the length of the empty wall, or about 8'. Still a lot of things to think about but I think starting out small may be a better approach than jumping in with both feet into a project that large. I still need to nail down a scale to model but right now I'm leaning towards N. I know I originally said I would prefer HO but I can do more with N in a limited space. I also need to decide on a time frame. I'm thinking the 70's as I am mostly interested in diesel but could still explain the occasional steam locomotive. I know there's much more to it than that but I have to start somewhere.
So I have been giving this a lot of thought over the last few days. Most people that have responded, myself included, seem to think that the attic space above my workshop would make an excellent room for a nice around the walls layout. It has also been pointed out that it would be a large investment & undertaking for someone that has been out of the hobby for quite some time and may or may not have the motivation for such a large project. So here I find myself back where I started. I have secured a space in our office, approximately 4'x8' in which to build a layout. That would be enough room to build an HO scale switching layout or a nice little n-scale layout. Either one could be 24"-30" wide, perhaps an L shape in the corner and run it the length of the empty wall, or about 8'.
Still a lot of things to think about but I think starting out small may be a better approach than jumping in with both feet into a project that large. I still need to nail down a scale to model but right now I'm leaning towards N. I know I originally said I would prefer HO but I can do more with N in a limited space. I also need to decide on a time frame. I'm thinking the 70's as I am mostly interested in diesel but could still explain the occasional steam locomotive.
I know there's much more to it than that but I have to start somewhere.
With a little planning and thought, the test layout could be a module that gets moved to the bigger layout if you decide to proceed.
Sheldon
You do what you think is right, for you.
Good luck!
Mike.
My You Tube
Track fiddler How about placing the layout right in the corner of the living room because you have no room to put it anywhere else, given a thousand square foot condo. Either I have the greatest wife in the world that allows me to do it. Or I'm an idiot with all my priorities screwed up. Or both TF PS Judy watches TV. I don't. At least we are still in the same room together in the evening. Can you see the irony here?
How about placing the layout right in the corner of the living room because you have no room to put it anywhere else, given a thousand square foot condo.
Either I have the greatest wife in the world that allows me to do it. Or I'm an idiot with all my priorities screwed up. Or both
TF
PS Judy watches TV. I don't. At least we are still in the same room together in the evening. Can you see the irony here?
that would never fly in my house.
mbinsewi What size is the main panel in the house? Mike.
What size is the main panel in the house?
main panel is 200 amps
Onewolf I would suggest building a moderate sized shelf layout (18"x72" or 96") in an existing location to validate your interest and help determine if it would be worth the investment ($ and time) in upgrading the 2nd floor workshop space. Of all the candidate spaces you have available, the 2nd floor space would definitely provide the most valuable and liveable space, albeit at the cost of $$$ to prepare it for layout construction/operation.
I would suggest building a moderate sized shelf layout (18"x72" or 96") in an existing location to validate your interest and help determine if it would be worth the investment ($ and time) in upgrading the 2nd floor workshop space. Of all the candidate spaces you have available, the 2nd floor space would definitely provide the most valuable and liveable space, albeit at the cost of $$$ to prepare it for layout construction/operation.
Very good point. I have actually had that in the back of my mind as well. I'm not exactly new to the hobby, but it's been a number of years. A lot of things have stayed the same while others have changed such as the development of DCC. I have both some HO & N scale equipment, no much of either but I'm going to pull it out this weekend and take a bit of inventory. I am going to re-visit N-scale as well. Earlier in this thread I said I wasn't interested in it but after thinking about it I think the last time I did anything with it was before I started wearing glasses. That may be a game changer as far as choosing scale. Another thing is even if I eventually decide to renovate the attic space it may be a few years before it's ready. Partly due to budgeting and the other reason is I don't do much inside during the summer. As soon as it's starting to get nice in April I will be getting the yard and pool ready for summer, then I spend a good amount of time in the summer attempting to make a little money on the side repairing small engines and in fall comes hunting season and before you know it Christmas is here. So for the most part it's January-March and part of April that I would get to spend working on this. Last year my step-daughter muved to Tampa so now we take time to try to get there over the winter and this coming fall my stepson is getting married so I'm sure there will be time & money going to plan his funeral plus I'm sure there will be grandchildren on the horizon. Now, having said all that I do see a light at the end of the tunnel called retirement. I'm hoping in about 12 or 13 years I can accomplish that goal and then I'm sure time constraints will change. So many things to think about. Having said all of that, there is still things I need to do to that building no matter what I do upstairs. Electricity being first, my entire shop runs off of one 15 amp breaker in the basement so that will need to be upgraded. The sub panel in the shop has 6 empty spaces so I will have to decide if that is enough to do everything I want to do. I have a feeling it won't be as I want to add 1 circuit upstairs for lighting, not sure how many a layout of that size would require, (input for this would be appreciated) dedicated circuit for a furnace, plus I want to add a 220 outlet in the shop for a new welder. I am also siding the building because I am sick of painting every few years. I already have the siding so as soon as it gets nice out I'll be working on that but there is going to be a bit of pre-planning for a possible layout by replacint the windows on the secone floor. Right now they are just aluminum storm windows which has always been fine because it's only ever been cold storage.
MJPinSEWII know it's not in the house but I still want it to look good. The price I threw out there was based on some work he did for me last year. I had him fix the walls in the kitchen, living room, and bathroom of a rental property that I was getting ready to sell. That included finishing some new drywall as well as some of the old plaster walls and spraying texture in all 3 rooms and it cost me $600 materials included so I think that since this is a smaller space & no texture it would most likely be cheaper
If you can get a "cheap" price to do the drywall installed and primed, sure, why not. Our basement cost would have been much higher and we were already coping with other home expenses and in order to keep progress, we needed to cut costs to recover financially. Yours ought to be less than half that so maybe not so bad.
Doug (onewolf) has a good point, you have a lot of expense riding on a train layout. If this is something new to you, it may be valid to be sure this is worth it.
Coming here for advise, most of the people in this forum are train nuts and it's kind of a no brainer to want to have a good sized layout space if it is obtainable. So we are biased.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
Spraying texture.......nobody does that around here anymore, people have a hard time selljng houses that have that stuff.
Perhaps I can help a bit here I recently replaced the furance in my 1 bedroom condo wihich I rent out at about $5,000 financed over two years through the local utillity.
Joe Staten Island West
riogrande5761 MJPinSEWI Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. Finishing drywall is something I absolutely hate and am not good at at all. This is one of those areas I would rather pay someone else to do it. It seems most poepole hate finishing drywall. In my case I don't enjoy it either and frankly I'm basically a novic but it came down to money. Electrical work is something I prefer others do, mainly for safety reasons, so I paid a guy to do run the wiring from the breaker box to the outlets and connect it all up. Same with plumbing. I do what I can to save money. If you are concerned about not having enough money for trains after do all the work above the shop, then thats an option, hate or not. Wife now wants a new car? More reasons. Practice makes better. And it's not in the house if it isn't perfect. Sometimes places like that are a good place to cut your teeth. Anyway, basically if you got the money, hire it out, of not, DIY.
MJPinSEWI Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. Finishing drywall is something I absolutely hate and am not good at at all. This is one of those areas I would rather pay someone else to do it.
Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. Finishing drywall is something I absolutely hate and am not good at at all. This is one of those areas I would rather pay someone else to do it.
It seems most poepole hate finishing drywall. In my case I don't enjoy it either and frankly I'm basically a novic but it came down to money. Electrical work is something I prefer others do, mainly for safety reasons, so I paid a guy to do run the wiring from the breaker box to the outlets and connect it all up. Same with plumbing. I do what I can to save money. If you are concerned about not having enough money for trains after do all the work above the shop, then thats an option, hate or not. Wife now wants a new car? More reasons. Practice makes better. And it's not in the house if it isn't perfect. Sometimes places like that are a good place to cut your teeth. Anyway, basically if you got the money, hire it out, of not, DIY.
I know it's not in the house but I still want it to look good. The price I threw out there was based on some work he did for me last year. I had him fix the walls in the kitchen, living room, and bathroom of a rental property that I was getting ready to sell. That included finishing some new drywall as well as some of the old plaster walls and spraying texture in all 3 rooms and it cost me $600 materials included so I think that since this is a smaller space & no texture it would most likely be cheaper but I like to plan for worst case scenario. I feel it would be money well spent and I am comfortable running circuits, gas lines etc as these are things I do all the time at work.
mbinsewi The drywall you can mud, tape and finish yourself. Look at Jim's (Rio G.) basement, and he had all kinds of corners, soffits, etc to deal with. It doesn't need to be sprayed, paint it, after your satisfied with joint taping. The windows you can do, just a lot handier to have a helper, and the electric service, yea, pay to have it done right. once the panel is in, circuits you can run. Just thinking out loud. Do what you can, when you can. Wishing I had that little shed in my back yard! Mike.
The drywall you can mud, tape and finish yourself. Look at Jim's (Rio G.) basement, and he had all kinds of corners, soffits, etc to deal with. It doesn't need to be sprayed, paint it, after your satisfied with joint taping.
The windows you can do, just a lot handier to have a helper, and the electric service, yea, pay to have it done right. once the panel is in, circuits you can run.
Just thinking out loud. Do what you can, when you can.
Wishing I had that little shed in my back yard!
Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should. Finishing drywall is something I absolutely hate and am not good at at all. This is one of those areas I would rather pay someone else to do it. As far as electrical I have a newer panel installed but I need to make sre there are enough spaces to run the needed circuits. I also need to decide how many circuits that is. The feed from the house was never updated. If the city inspector ever saw the knob & tube overhead wire running from the house he would probably freak out. I have an electrician coming in spring to run a new feed underground regardless of what I do in the attic.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL MJPinSEWI UNCLEBUTCH A lot of the cost depends on your taste and mindset. Are you willing to acept a good enuff, workable space, or must you have a magazine cover photo qualty,best of every thing. I really can't see 3grand in finishing the room, maybe something I missed in the pics. We just replaced our furance last year, under $2700. you won't need one that big. Bench work: I'm on my 4th real layout. I have yet to spend a $100, and most of that was for caulk and screws. Yes it looks like just what it is,but it works. Engines rolling stock buildings ect. is a life long expence,don,t need it all at once. It all comes down to trade offs and how bad you want it By the time I get the walls studded, insulated, wired, and drywalled I'm already over 1K. Someone to finish off the drywall & spray it $500-$600. Stairs or fold down ladder $200-$300, I have to run a new service from the house, both windows need to be replaced and at this point I would bet I'm already over 3K. The furnace itself will probably be cheaper but by the time I run ductwork & have it zoned it will most likely run more. There are also incedentials that I'm sure I'm forgetting. This is doing most of the work myself. Several times you have used the expression "spray the drywall"? Are you refering to painting? Why would you hire someone to spray paint a space that small? Trust me, tract houses are sprayed because it is cheap on a large scale like that, not because it is a good way to paint a house. Yes, it may be $300 or so to get a drywall finisher to do his work, but surely you can use a roller and brush and paint the room. And for just one room like you are doing, spraying is a bad idea in EVERY way. Sheldon
MJPinSEWI UNCLEBUTCH A lot of the cost depends on your taste and mindset. Are you willing to acept a good enuff, workable space, or must you have a magazine cover photo qualty,best of every thing. I really can't see 3grand in finishing the room, maybe something I missed in the pics. We just replaced our furance last year, under $2700. you won't need one that big. Bench work: I'm on my 4th real layout. I have yet to spend a $100, and most of that was for caulk and screws. Yes it looks like just what it is,but it works. Engines rolling stock buildings ect. is a life long expence,don,t need it all at once. It all comes down to trade offs and how bad you want it By the time I get the walls studded, insulated, wired, and drywalled I'm already over 1K. Someone to finish off the drywall & spray it $500-$600. Stairs or fold down ladder $200-$300, I have to run a new service from the house, both windows need to be replaced and at this point I would bet I'm already over 3K. The furnace itself will probably be cheaper but by the time I run ductwork & have it zoned it will most likely run more. There are also incedentials that I'm sure I'm forgetting. This is doing most of the work myself.
UNCLEBUTCH A lot of the cost depends on your taste and mindset. Are you willing to acept a good enuff, workable space, or must you have a magazine cover photo qualty,best of every thing. I really can't see 3grand in finishing the room, maybe something I missed in the pics. We just replaced our furance last year, under $2700. you won't need one that big. Bench work: I'm on my 4th real layout. I have yet to spend a $100, and most of that was for caulk and screws. Yes it looks like just what it is,but it works. Engines rolling stock buildings ect. is a life long expence,don,t need it all at once. It all comes down to trade offs and how bad you want it
A lot of the cost depends on your taste and mindset. Are you willing to acept a good enuff, workable space, or must you have a magazine cover photo qualty,best of every thing.
I really can't see 3grand in finishing the room, maybe something I missed in the pics.
We just replaced our furance last year, under $2700. you won't need one that big.
Bench work: I'm on my 4th real layout. I have yet to spend a $100, and most of that was for caulk and screws. Yes it looks like just what it is,but it works.
Engines rolling stock buildings ect. is a life long expence,don,t need it all at once.
It all comes down to trade offs and how bad you want it
By the time I get the walls studded, insulated, wired, and drywalled I'm already over 1K. Someone to finish off the drywall & spray it $500-$600. Stairs or fold down ladder $200-$300, I have to run a new service from the house, both windows need to be replaced and at this point I would bet I'm already over 3K.
The furnace itself will probably be cheaper but by the time I run ductwork & have it zoned it will most likely run more. There are also incedentials that I'm sure I'm forgetting. This is doing most of the work myself.
Several times you have used the expression "spray the drywall"? Are you refering to painting? Why would you hire someone to spray paint a space that small?
Trust me, tract houses are sprayed because it is cheap on a large scale like that, not because it is a good way to paint a house.
Yes, it may be $300 or so to get a drywall finisher to do his work, but surely you can use a roller and brush and paint the room.
And for just one room like you are doing, spraying is a bad idea in EVERY way.
I wouldn't need to have it sprayed (just primer) but for the little bit he would charge for that it's probably worth it. Especially the windows & everything would still be covered with vapor barrier so there really wouldn't be any masking. I can easily use a brush & roller but now that I think of it I own a sprayer as well & could easily do it myself. If I were to do a texture I would definitely have him do that but I don't want a texture on this.
mbinsewi MJPinSEWI So if you live in SE Wisconsin where is the North woods to you? West of Minocqua, off HWY 70. Pike Lake Chain. We're not on a lake, which is just across the road. Down here, I'm kind of the neighbor lawn mower guy. I also rebuild old garden tractors, small stuff, but the place in the woods has dominated my time. That, and keeping with the needs of our small cape cod. I think I have a bunch of stuff in my profile. Mike.
MJPinSEWI So if you live in SE Wisconsin where is the North woods to you?
West of Minocqua, off HWY 70. Pike Lake Chain. We're not on a lake, which is just across the road.
Down here, I'm kind of the neighbor lawn mower guy. I also rebuild old garden tractors, small stuff, but the place in the woods has dominated my time. That, and keeping with the needs of our small cape cod.
I think I have a bunch of stuff in my profile.
That's really up there. I only go as far as the Plainfield area if you know where that is & it's still a 2 hour drive.
I've re-built my share of GT's, right now I have a JD 312 and an old Jacobsen GT14 with a front end loader.
MJPinSEWISo if you live in SE Wisconsin where is the North woods to you?
mbinsewi MJPinSEWI There isn’t really a way to say you’re going to spend X amount of dollars on a layout because of all the unknowns so how do you go about coming up with a budget for something like this? What ever you can stash away with out interupting the family budget. That's how we are funding our small get-a-way place on our land in the North woods. If something butts in like in, like a washing machine, or some other heavy appliance, that happens first. I don't know what you do for a living, when I was activily working in the construction trades, I used "side job" ( driveways, patios, sidewalks, etc.) money to fund extra interest. It all depends how bad you want it, and what your resources are, to make it work, even it it takes longer than what you'd like. Mike.
MJPinSEWI There isn’t really a way to say you’re going to spend X amount of dollars on a layout because of all the unknowns so how do you go about coming up with a budget for something like this?
What ever you can stash away with out interupting the family budget. That's how we are funding our small get-a-way place on our land in the North woods.
If something butts in like in, like a washing machine, or some other heavy appliance, that happens first.
I don't know what you do for a living, when I was activily working in the construction trades, I used "side job" ( driveways, patios, sidewalks, etc.) money to fund extra interest.
It all depends how bad you want it, and what your resources are, to make it work, even it it takes longer than what you'd like.
I'm a maintenence mechanic so I've become pretty good at doing small engine repairs on the side. People either bring me stuff to fix or I end up buying something on the cheap that needs to be fixed and sell it for a profit. We have savings to cover most things that can go wrong in the house but my wife has some crazy idea about getting a new car. Not sure why, hers is only 20 years old.
So if you live in SE Wisconsin where is the North woods to you?
I use imgur, it's no problem. You have to choose the picture links that begin and end with img in square brackets.
I think I should just give up on pictures
riogrande5761 Reality, what a concept (to quote Robin Williams) It's true that when you add it all up, it can be a lot. My wife and I bought a bank owned and the inspector said it was probably the best forclosure/bank owned home he had seen. That said, the kitchen was what kept it from selling which was a biggie - it required all new countertops, sink, disposal and faucet and applicances and new back splash and the cupboards were dated and dirty and needed sanded and restaining. The hardwood floors from front to back need sanded and restained. The front door with threshold water rot needed replaced. The master bath and shower needed gutting and replaced. Oh, and the unfinished basement needs finished before a layout can be built. The one plus to the basement was it was all framed in and open, which was a major box checked in my "want" list. Even with the studs all installed, it's a big job for one guy to finish 700 Sq Ft with lots of corners and boxed in ceiling beams and ducts. Hanging drywall is a two person job, and my wife had helped a lot with that, and sanding. At purchase: Photo from a couple weeks ago: A bit more recent with more mud: The moral of the story here is we couldn't do it all at once and we couldn't afford to pay contractors to do all of it either. So you work on it bit by bit over a couple of years, or maybe longer. We are 1 1/2 years in the home and the kitchen is all upgraded and has new granite counter tops, the master bathroom has a new 2 person jetted tub new walk in shower and all new tile (water rotted subfloor has been replaced). Front door also replaced. Basement is wired, outlets installed, plumbing for bathroom ran, drywall all installed (by wife and I) and the mudding taping is about 75% done.
Reality, what a concept (to quote Robin Williams)
It's true that when you add it all up, it can be a lot. My wife and I bought a bank owned and the inspector said it was probably the best forclosure/bank owned home he had seen. That said, the kitchen was what kept it from selling which was a biggie - it required all new countertops, sink, disposal and faucet and applicances and new back splash and the cupboards were dated and dirty and needed sanded and restaining. The hardwood floors from front to back need sanded and restained. The front door with threshold water rot needed replaced. The master bath and shower needed gutting and replaced.
Oh, and the unfinished basement needs finished before a layout can be built. The one plus to the basement was it was all framed in and open, which was a major box checked in my "want" list. Even with the studs all installed, it's a big job for one guy to finish 700 Sq Ft with lots of corners and boxed in ceiling beams and ducts. Hanging drywall is a two person job, and my wife had helped a lot with that, and sanding.
At purchase:
Photo from a couple weeks ago:
A bit more recent with more mud:
The moral of the story here is we couldn't do it all at once and we couldn't afford to pay contractors to do all of it either. So you work on it bit by bit over a couple of years, or maybe longer.
We are 1 1/2 years in the home and the kitchen is all upgraded and has new granite counter tops, the master bathroom has a new 2 person jetted tub new walk in shower and all new tile (water rotted subfloor has been replaced). Front door also replaced. Basement is wired, outlets installed, plumbing for bathroom ran, drywall all installed (by wife and I) and the mudding taping is about 75% done.
That looks really nice. I wish I had a basement like that.
Last January we started remodeling our kitchen. My wife thought we would be done by the beginning of February. I just laughed. If I can get my pictures to work the right way this time I'll post the before & after shots from the same basic vantage point. The only things we didn't do ourselves were mudding & taping the drywall and installing the countertops.
That attic space seems like the place. Insulated, and especially if you build a knee wall instead of lettign it go all the way down where you can;t stand or anythiung anyway (this will greatly reduce the volume of space that needs heating and cooling) it should be pretty darn easy to keep it at reasonable temperature. For cooling - if the one window faces an alley, a window air conditioner would be more than sufficient. My previous layout was in what really was just a finished attic, a bit larger, but still, directly under the roof. Never too hot in the summer, even on 90+ days, with a window AC, and not even a huge one. THe usable area I had was about 12x18.
Here's probably the best overall picture I have at hand:
Directly behind where I am standing, which is in a dormer space, is a window that has the AC unit in it. I used that alcove space for my workbench (again, behind where I am standing to take that picture). The house was half of a double, so one wall is sloped with the knee wall, the other wall was full height, that was the division between my side and the neighbor. I had to make a liftout section to get in the room from the door - having the entry come up near the middle of the room means you can run the layout around the perimeter and not have to create any liftout or anything. The usable width may be enough for a penninsula, just woithout a turnback curve. I never built that on mine but I had it planned, coming out from the center of the section along the far wall (where the other window is), as I would still have 3 feet of space to either side of it for an aisle.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I just did a rough estimate on the space he has, studs, insulation R15, (unfaced) vapor barrier, 1/2 drywall, mud and tape, screws, nails, etc., call it an even $1000, using Menards to price things, NOT counting the 11% discount they have at certain times.
Of course, that's doing the work yourself. I don't know the municipality he lives in, but a building permit would more than likely be required.
And I haven't included a remodeled entry way, such as the stairs, or a "ships ladder" type set-up, or a folding set up.
I also don't know what electric service he has to his shop, just quessing by the little panel that's in his picture, probably 20 or 30 amps, he might want to boost that, depending on what the service at the house is, as I assume the shop is a sub-panel from the house.
No plumbing involved.
He' questimating $3000. Overall, total complete, ready to turn on the lights, and get to layout building, it could possibly be about that much.