I have been out of the hobby for a few years but would like to get back into it. The first problem I need to overcome is where to locate a layout. I am thinking about a 4'x8' or so HO scale. I started building an n-scale layout a few years back but quickly realized that I needed to stick to the larger size because my eyes, among other things, are not getting better as I get older.
I don't have any room inside the house that I can claim so that leaves me 2 options. Basement or workshop. Unfortunately our basement is not ideal because I can't stand up straight down there. All of the rooms are wide open but with it being so short makes it very undesirable. The other option would be in my workshop. This poses it's own problems because #1 it would take up a considerable amount of shop space which I have too little of already. #2 the dirt. I do a considerable amount of metal & woodworking in there and we all know that sawdust/metal dust and trains don't mix. #3 Temprature. I have a wood burning stove in my shop but I obviously only burn it when I'm out there so it can drop below freezing when I am not out there. As far as the first 2 issues I was considering building a layout that was suspended from the ceiling and lowered onto sawhorses or legs when in use. When raised up it would have to be housed in some sort of "cover" to keep out dirt & debris.
The problem of temprature control is a bit different. I really don't want to, nor can I afford, to heat that building 24/7. Will the temprature changes wreak havoc with the trackwork?
Any other thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.
Have you considered an around the room shelf? 6/8 in wide shelf will give room for main line and a siding or two,along with buildings and such
The bigger concern with the shop; if you have to bundle up and then ''go out'' there,, you will soon lose interest
Some folks here have garage or attic layouts can tell all about the challenges of working on a layout during the cold/heat.
Is there a room inside the house that you can use for even a small layout? Perhaps some pics of candidate rooms can help. You really don't need a lot of space to enjoy a layout.
UNCLEBUTCH Have you considered an around the room shelf? 6/8 in wide shelf will give room for main line and a siding or two,along with buildings and such The bigger concern with the shop; if you have to bundle up and then ''go out'' there,, you will soon lose interest
i have considered a shelf layout, but don’t have a suitable room for it.
I know what you mean about “bundling up” to go out to my shop but when I light a fire in the stove I can easily get it between 65-80 degrees in there so it’s plenty comfortable. I must say though I’m not extremely excited about the space because of having to put the layout away in one form or another to work on other things. I also wouldn’t be able to work on it in the evenings because by the time I got a fire going after work and got it warm in there I would be ready for bed. I would love to have a dedicated room for a layout but nothing is really viable at this point. I am still looking for ways to do it inside the house so I am not committed to anything at this point just looking at options.
Is the basement floor cement? What about a lower height layout that you work on and operate by sitting in rollign office chairs? Is the ceiling height high enough that you can sit in a chair or even a slightly taller stool without bashing your head into the ceiling?
If the floor is dirt - this is something I have seen in old issues of the magazine, what about digging it down just where the aisles would be, so that you can stand without hitting your head? Sort of like a shallow trench system. You would probbaly want to seal this all in though, a dirt floor and a dirt pit is probably not a good environment for a layout either.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
kasskaboose Some folks here have garage or attic layouts can tell all about the challenges of working on a layout during the cold/heat. Is there a room inside the house that you can use for even a small layout? Perhaps some pics of candidate rooms can help. You really don't need a lot of space to enjoy a layout.
I have been negotiating with management for some space inside the house but the only possibility would be in the office. Even if I can get space in there, it would only be enough for an n scale layout which I am trying to stay away from.
RR_Mel I’ve been model railroading almost all my life and didn’t have room for a permanent 4’ x 8’ layout until the rug rats moved out. Even now I have a 10’ x 14’ layout in our garage, I’ve modeled in HO since 1951. Over the years I had a 12” shelf layout from 1951 until 1958. Nothing until 1963 then I built a 4’ x 8’ foldup in a bedroom, it folded up against a wall and was 12” out from the wall stored. That lasted until we moved in 1984 then another 4’ x 8’ in a basement until 1987. The final move in 1987 is when I started my current and last layout in our garage. I would say to do what you can with what room you have to work with. Maybe a modular type with several modules that can easily be stored when not in use. Or like mentioned above a shelf layout around the room. Large temperature swings are bad on everything not just the track. Good luck no mater what you end up doing, do what you must to stay in the hobby. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
The temprature swings are my main concern at this point. Right now it is hovering right around zero here. I had to go into my workshop after work to get some polyurethane for a project I'm working on in the house right now. It was 40 degrees inside the workshop. The only reason it's still that warm is because I had the woodburner going all weekend and everything in there is still hanging on to some warmth. Had I not been out there all weekend it would probably be 15 or 20 degrees in there. probably not the best environment for trackwork, models, & scenery.
rrinker Is the basement floor cement? What about a lower height layout that you work on and operate by sitting in rollign office chairs? Is the ceiling height high enough that you can sit in a chair or even a slightly taller stool without bashing your head into the ceiling? If the floor is dirt - this is something I have seen in old issues of the magazine, what about digging it down just where the aisles would be, so that you can stand without hitting your head? Sort of like a shallow trench system. You would probbaly want to seal this all in though, a dirt floor and a dirt pit is probably not a good environment for a layout either. --Randy
The basement floor is concrete. The ceiling is high enough that I could build a shorter layout that I could sit at but I still need to stand for some things including constructing the layout so that would be a problem. There is also no heat and it's dark & dirty & damp down there. Nothing that couldn't be overcome but it would require a lot of work before building a layout. I know some people have nice basements that they are able to build beautiful layouts in, unfortunately that's not my house.
This is the space I am trying to negotiate in our office. (hopefully the pictures come through properly)The wall in the pictures is about 9' long but of course the closet doors on the adjacent wall screws things up. On the right side you can see the edge of our desk which is about 4' from the wall. To build a 4'x8' layout in this area wouldn't work very well as I would only have acces from 2 sides. I do want to have a continous run loop in the layout so that's something I need to keep in mind.
For some reason they didn't and I'm not sure why. Here they are
I would strongly suggest not using a space that is physically unpleasant because of ceiling height or temperature. You won't want to go down there.
Basements can be expanded. Howard Zane did it a couple times. I'm am sure there are both engineering and financial challenges in that approach.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I see we must share the same general location.
In the office, what about continueing down the wall over the desk?
With a return loop on each end, for HO, your going to need a bare minimum of 48" wide, to at least get a 22" or a bit bigger radius, using flex track, and coming right out to the edge.
I guess N scale is an alternative, even though you'd rather avoid it.
You could have a revolution, and "seize" the office for your space.
Mike.
My You Tube
BigDaddy For some reason they didn't and I'm not sure why. Here they are I would strongly suggest not using a space that is physically unpleasant because of ceiling height or temperature. You won't want to go down there. Basements can be expanded. Howard Zane did it a couple times. I'm am sure there are both engineering and financial challenges in that approach.
Thank you for fixing that.
I agree about not using an unpleasent space. I am sure my basement could be made nice & desirable, but would be cost prohibitave.
mbinsewi I see we must share the same general location. In the office, what about continueing down the wall over the desk? With a return loop on each end, for HO, your going to need a bare minimum of 48" wide, to at least get a 22" or a bit bigger radius, using flex track, and coming right out to the edge. I guess N scale is an alternative, even though you'd rather avoid it. You could have a revolution, and "seize" the office for your space. Mike.
It looks like we do share the same general location, as well as the same name.
Unfortunately going over the top of the desk would run right in front of the window abd it wouldn't lead anywhere. On the other side of the desk are all of the filing cabinets and storage for things from the store. Taking over the office isn't an option.
Michael
You could always scrap the continuous run thing, and use one wall to do a switching layout.
I don't see any other way unless you go back to the shop idea.
In the shop, can you just cover it while your doing other projects?
It seems your literally against the wall here, Michael. Switching layout inside, or 4'x8' in the shop.
Just thinking outloud; Bottom line is,how bad do you want it[layout] ? There gonna have to be gives and takes.
The basement is out. the shop is a pretty poor maybe. I would give up on the 4X8. They are considered space wasters any way. So start thinking about a dog bone plan. A narrow shelf with room to turn on both ends. Or settle for a point to point.A smallish switching type set up.
Start looking at it from different angles. Not to throw another rock, but you'll need a work space also.
mbinsewi You could always scrap the continuous run thing, and use one wall to do a switching layout. I don't see any other way unless you go back to the shop idea. In the shop, can you just cover it while your doing other projects? It seems your literally against the wall here, Michael. Switching layout inside, or 4'x8' in the shop. Mike.
i agree, something will have to give. The continuous run is something I definitely want to keep, I would rather go back to n-scale than lose that feature. I know I said I wanted to stay away from it but it may be my best option.
UNCLEBUTCH Just thinking outloud; Bottom line is,how bad do you want it[layout] ? There gonna have to be gives and takes. The basement is out. the shop is a pretty poor maybe. I would give up on the 4X8. They are considered space wasters any way. So start thinking about a dog bone plan. A narrow shelf with room to turn on both ends. Or settle for a point to point.A smallish switching type set up. Start looking at it from different angles. Not to throw another rock, but you'll need a work space also.
workspace shouldn’t be an issue. small projects can be done right at our desk while larger things would be done in my workshop.
It depends on how important the trains are. Are you willing to sell the house and find a place more suitable? My wife and I were living in a townhouse and for a variety of reasons, which included space for a layout, we sold and moved further out where we could afford a stand alone house with space for a layout in the basement. Layout space was one of our primary priorities as we looked and then moved.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 It depends on how important the trains are. Are you willing to sell the house and find a place more suitable? My wife and I were living in a townhouse and for a variety of reasons, which included space for a layout, we sold and moved further out where we could afford a stand alone house with space for a layout in the basement. Layout space was one of our primary priorities as we looked and then moved.
moving is not an option for several reasons. We spent a lot of time and effort renovating our current home to what we want. Unfortunately a layout was an afterthought so I have to work in the confines of the space available.
RR_Mel I know how you feel about continuous run. I had three things I had always wanted as must haves on my layout, the continuous run was a piece of cake, the roundhouse/turntable and a double crossover on my main line was not. The turntable and roundhouse were huge, 53” x 33” on a 10’ x 14’ layout. I ended up building my layout around the turntable/roundhouse module. The double crossover was more difficult than the tt/roundhouse. I wanted code 83 track where it could be seen and went with code 100 for my hidden track. My favorite locomotives are Rivarossi Cab Forward and they have large wheel flanges. I tried at least 5 different manufacturers of code 83 double crossovers and not one would pass my Cab Forwards without problems. I used a code 83 Walthers/Sinohara double crossover from the beginning so my track spacing was set at 2” to match the crossover. My Cab Forwards would pass all my Atlas code 83 turnouts easily with no problems so I went with an Atlas #6 single crossover which was extremely disappointing. That was in 1990, I just had to fulfill my needs so finally in 2012 I kitbashed my own double crossover from Atlas #6 turnouts. My goal of the massive turntable/roundhouse and the double crossover was finally a reality. Keep at it and you will find a way to work it out! Model railroading it the greatest hobby in the world. My Layout Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
As much as I would like to have a roundhouse it would simply chew up too much real estate on an already small layout. I am already arguing with myself about a single or double main line And I haven’t even nailed down a location, size, or scale yet. I would like a double but how realistic would it look? The more layouts I look at the more I realize some people are cramming too much track in and not enough room for other things. Sometimes less is more.
Maybe I am going about this the wrong way. Perhaps I should be looking at the space available before committing to a scale that works for me and then working a scale/wants/needs/desires into that.
Regarding layout environments which you mentioned in your original post, I can tell you I had a layout in a garage which underwent massive swings in temperature from 90's in the summer and so humid you could cut the air with a knife to extreme cold to 0 F in winter and very dry air. It played havoc with the track I laid, which was Atlas code 100 with all the joints soldered except at turnouts. In the summer expansion caused the track to buckle and kink, and in the winter the rail pulled apart and broke solder joints.
MJPinSEWI Maybe I am going about this the wrong way. Perhaps I should be looking at the space available before committing to a scale that works for me and then working a scale/wants/needs/desires into that.
If your only in-door locations with temp/humidity control are limited, N scale might be a good way to go.
If it ever does become a priority to build an HO layout, then moving might be helpful is that ever does become an option.
MJPinSEWIThe more layouts I look at the more I realize some people are cramming too much track in and not enough room for other things. Sometimes less is more.
Exactly! Some layouts are cramped full of track, and with bridges right next to each other that don't serve a purpose, other than being a bridge, and industries unrealistically packed in together.
There is a thing called selective commpression, and while trying to achive that, it can turn into a slective commpressed mess.
Get your space availiable down first, and then design a railroad to fit, while avoiding all of the above.
Not meaning to beat a dead horse;; Maybe reconsider the basement?
We have an old farm house,built 1894. Stairs are steep,walls are field stone,floor is concrete but was finshed with a rake,can still see the teeth marks. Only light when I started was a 40W bulb on a cord. Cieling is hand cut beams/boards. Low hanging pipes and support members,I can stand under most of them, after the 3rd or 4th time you rember where the low ones are. Heat comes from a Mr. Heater Big Buddy. Didn't even go down there yesterday.On a good/bad rain, I get water coming in, some time up to a inch on the north wall.
I sure wouldn't call it nice, but it is workable. And I don't have to share the space with anyone or anything else, My trade offs
MJPinSEWI The more layouts I look at the more I realize some people are cramming too much track in and anot enough room for other things. Sometimes less is more
UNCLEBUTCH Not meaning to beat a dead horse;; Maybe reconsider the basement?
Personally that would be a strong consideration by me too.
We have an old farm house,built 1894. Stairs are steep,walls are field stone,floor is concrete but was finshed with a rake,can still see the teeth marks. Only light when I started was a 40W bulb on a cord. Cieling is hand cut beams/boards. Low hanging pipes and support members,I can stand under most of them, after the 3rd or 4th time you rember where the low ones are. Heat comes from a Mr. Heater Big Buddy. Didn't even go down there yesterday.On a good/bad rain, I get water coming in, some time up to a inch on the north wall. I sure wouldn't call it nice, but it is workable. And I don't have to share the space with anyone or anything else, My trade offs
If the ceiling was low but I could stand up in many places, if the space were there and I could use a chair on wheels to do a lot of stuff, the space would a big help.
I remember watching a video of a guy in England who actually built a large and very elaborate layout under his house in a crawl space. In his case I think he was able to dig out some channels for an operator area but even in those channels he couldn't stand up completely. He had to crawl around most of the area which appeared to have about 4 feet of vertical clearance. But he had such a passion for trains he made it work. Of course, passion and motivation was a major factor here. For casual train people, that might never be an option.
I have been in basements (older homes) which are simply not suited to a model railroad location. With enough money any basement can be made wonderful, I am sure. With enough money you can do many things.
One possibility that might be explored for someone in the OP's position is the layout that folds up against a wall, so the question there is more, "do you have a wall upstairs that could accomodate a 1' or so thick tall book-case looking piece of woodworking that if some furniture was moved a bit could be folded down?" MR has had some articles and John Armstrong's lesser-known book "Creative Layout Design" had his "Murphy Bed & Credenza" layout plan. In N scale you probably wouldn't even need to worry much about the height of structures, trees or other scenic features. In HO you'd need to do some planning and compromising.
It's a rare house or condo that does not have at least that kind of room. Whether it is "politically" possible is another matter.
Dave Nelson
A 4x8 is really a huge space waster, it takes WAY more than 4x8 of floor space to build and run it. A shelf type layout would be much more compatible with the other use of the office space, and offer more possibilities, just maybe not continuous running. At a reasonable stnading height, it would go over chairs and desks, so you might be able to run it along at least 3 of the walls, resulting in a much longer run than a loop on a 4x8. Limited spac e- forget the double tracked main. Model a branch line.
Unless you cna easily make the basement more livable - dehumidifier for the dampness, space heater for the cold, more lights - it will end up being a place you don't want to be, and in a less than ideal environment, lack of running will cause perpetual issues witht he layout itself. But again consider going around the walls on shelved 2' wide or less. You'll get way more layout in the same space as a 4x8, AND, since you don't have to reach over a 4' wide peice of plywood to build things, you don't necessarily have to work standing up to build it. Maybe a tall stool to build, with the height set to operate from a regular office chair. But only if you can improve the environment down there.
Have you checked out the availability of any clubs in your area? Yeah, there's some social and inconvenience factors involved, but I've been without a layout for a number of years and my club involvement nicely maintains my operational needs. That would make the consideration of a shelf switching operation more acceptable at home. You could get your continuous operations need met elsewhere.
Life is always creating "boxes" that seem to limit what we can to do, both short and long term. But there's lots of those boxes that we're able to step out of. It's just that the options haven't yet occurred to us. What about the club alternative, at least in the interim. Some day you may be able to move to a place that will accommodate your modeling dreams.
John