Well, the foam can go a long way towards that - you can run the wiring along the edge just behind the facia like Lion does, and dig trenches in the foam to run the feeders to the track, all on the top. If you leave off the plywood layer, you can even install switch motors from the top, either Tortoises like I did with small squares of perfboard two layouts ago, or servos in the same manner, or Peco type machines clipped to the bottom of the turnouts.
Definitely possible to have everything you need without getting underneath. Or even flipping the layout over. Back on the old layout section of my website I have some pictures of installing the Tortoise from the top. Not my idea, I 'borrowed' it from a Freemo group's web site.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrebellReally no need to ever go under the layout once built except if you use swich machines (they cay fail). Just build the 12' span as three sections and bolt them together.
Hi rrebell,
I'm trying to find a way that won't require me to ever have to go under the layout, even during construction. That's why I am considering building the layout on a rotisserie. I can tilt it on its side to do the under layout work, and I will be able to sit comfortably while I am doing that. If my theory works out I will require very little help assembling the benchwork, I won't have to lift anything with significant weight and I won't have to stand or crawl to do anything, except perhaps some of the scenery.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter I have started to experiment with layout designs. I began with a 5' x 9' but I didn't like it because it was almost all curves. I am now looking at a 5' 3" x 12' plan similar to the Milwaukee Road Beer line which is 4' x 12'. Given my back problems I have to figure out how to build it without me having to handle heavy sheets of plywood, so I'm leaning towards building a grid from 1x4s with a 1/4" plywood top covered by 2" FOAM. The plywood will provide a surface to anchor screws properly and the foam will allow for some details like ditches and minor elevation changes. Getting under the layout will be an impossibility for me so I am considering building it on a rotisserie so I can turn it on its side when needed to do the wiring etc. Having a 12' span of straight 1x4 gridwork will likely be a bit too flexible so I have to figure out how to make it more rigid. One method would be to incorporate L girders into the span. Another would be to simply have removable legs in the middle to support it when it is level. A third might be to use 1x6s for the outside frame so that the edge of the foam is covered and the strength of the span will be increased. Perhaps a combination of a couple of the options might be best. Anyhow, this is still just speculation so don't hold your breath. Dave
I have started to experiment with layout designs. I began with a 5' x 9' but I didn't like it because it was almost all curves. I am now looking at a 5' 3" x 12' plan similar to the Milwaukee Road Beer line which is 4' x 12'.
Given my back problems I have to figure out how to build it without me having to handle heavy sheets of plywood, so I'm leaning towards building a grid from 1x4s with a 1/4" plywood top covered by 2" FOAM. The plywood will provide a surface to anchor screws properly and the foam will allow for some details like ditches and minor elevation changes.
Getting under the layout will be an impossibility for me so I am considering building it on a rotisserie so I can turn it on its side when needed to do the wiring etc. Having a 12' span of straight 1x4 gridwork will likely be a bit too flexible so I have to figure out how to make it more rigid. One method would be to incorporate L girders into the span. Another would be to simply have removable legs in the middle to support it when it is level. A third might be to use 1x6s for the outside frame so that the edge of the foam is covered and the strength of the span will be increased. Perhaps a combination of a couple of the options might be best.
Anyhow, this is still just speculation so don't hold your breath.
rrinkerThat's going to get heavy, real quick. Sturdy. But heavy.
Hi Randy,
I'm not too worried about the weight of having a center box.
Here is my theory so far:
If I build the benchwork on a rotisserie, I can start by building each side of the center box as a separate piece with the ribs (cross members) attached. Each assembly would consist of two 12' - 1x6s and eight pieces roughly 1x4 x 2.25'. The 1x6s would be assembled as an 'L' which would form one side and either the top or the bottom of the center beam. The ribs would be attached to each of the 'L's before assembling the beam. One 'L' would be attached to the rotisserie, and then the second 'L' to the first. I would only have to lift the equivalent of about 30 ft of lumber on each side. That's the same as three 10' - 1x5s. It would likely take two people to install the halves of the beam because of the size, but I don't think the weight will be an issue.
I'll spend some time tonight drawing up a plan.
That's going to get heavy, real quick. Sturdy. But heavy.
Perhaps build in sections. Light weight and easily handled in a rotisserie. As each one is done, set it upright. Lay in the last bit of roadbed and track right over the gap, forget makign it easily removeable like a portable modular setup. Scenery right across the gaps too. If you really ever did need to get it out of there, it could be cut apart if necessary. Wires for structure lighting could be run in channels in the foam right on top instead of having to go underneath. I wonder if the CircuiTape stuff is still around? It was ahead of its time - they advertised it for running track power and everything but really it was too light an effective wire gauge - but for LEDs in structures it would be perfect!
CapnCrunch I would think a 6"x6" hollow box beam with projecting machine screws through the end plates would support your foam based layout.
Hi Tim,
Hmmmmm. Using a 6" x 6" center box beam sounds like a good idea. I was thinking of a structure similar to a fishbelly flat car frame but one long box would be much easier to build. I'm imagining ribs coming off either side running out to the exterior frame. The ribs would be easy to install if they were screwed and glued to the side members of the box beam before the beam was assembled.
Thanks,
Hi Dave,
I like your rotisserie approach. To span your 12' centerline, I would think a 6"x6" hollow box beam with projecting machine screws through the end plates would support your foam based layout. Obviously, you would need legs around the perimeter to support it when it's not being rotated. I think you're on the right track (no pun intended).
Tim
Late to the model railroad party but playing catch-up.....
Redvdub1 Organize your club...have bylaws (kiss)...don't spend any "significant" monies without a vote....don't make any significant decision without a vote...ever.
When I joined the club three years ago it was a mess. A few of us got together and straightened everything out. The club is now very well organized and we keep the general members informed and involved. We found a new clubhouse that is a vast improvement over the old one. We were very specific with the budget for the layout that was being built. We brought all of the bylaws up to date, met all the corporate rules, updated the insurance policies, created committees for the layout construction, operations and the annual show and sale. The club has monthly business meetings to keep people informed and to get their input or vote on various issues. I think we did a good job of managing the club.
In fact, IMO we did too good a job of setting up the rules. We lost the flexibility to debate issues after a vote had been taken. When I tried to reopen a discussion after a vote I got shot down with both barrels in a very direct and unpleasant way. That's why I left.
A six foot module would fit easily into my FORD FLEX.........
If I was a modular layout kind of guy........
Two eight foot modules would have fit in my 1968 Checker station wagon..........or will easily fit in the back of my F250.........
Sheldon
I am a 15 year member and officer in a train club with a permanent layout and T-Trak modules (N-scale) and a modular HO travelling layout. Some thoughts
1. build your modules with furniture grade wood/plywood to minimize warping.
2. Use foam...lightness is good
3. re length-our HO modules are 6 footers..but we have a trailer. Try and get
a 6 footer into a vehicle...hmmm...an 8 footer would require a VW Eurovan
or equivalent....or a trailer.
4. Module interconnection: ugh ...this really requires some pre-planning.
Consider something like the Kam-Konnect system. Our 20'X20' HO modular
layout takes 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours to setup and requires 6-10 people to
achieve those setup times. Leveling is the major time consumer. We can
get them out of the trailer and standing in place in < 30 minutes. We are
going to try out Kam-Konnect's system (partially at first) to see if we can
significantly cut the setup time. It's worth the expense.
5. Organize your club...have bylaws (kiss)...don't spend any "significant" monies
without a vote....don't make any significant decision without a vote...ever.
6. the internet is here...use it. Stay in touch every week. If possible have a
web site.
7. I like all the other ideas listed in response to your inquiry.
4.
Go lasso some helpful souls and get the heavy part banged out!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
mbinsewiSorry I have dragged your thread sideways. Mike.
Absolutely no reason to be sorry! I am rather glad that the thread is still active. Forum members have given me a great deal of support through what has turned out to be a very trying experience, including very good suggestions about how to maintain my interest in the hobby, i.e. figure out how to build a layout!
Thanks for your support!
It's no problem Dave, just messing around. I also got it in a Pinterest ad.
I'll just search for swimsuites and change the ads I get.
Sorry I have dragged your thread sideways.
Mike.
My You Tube
mbinsewiAll right! this has gone to far.... . I went to watch a video this morning about a track geometry train... and guess what the first commercial was I had to endure?.....VRBO !
Hi Mike,
Sorry about that. I see to have unleashed a monster!
Have you tried using Ad Block Plus. It is a free pop up blocker and it works extremely well for me. I almost never get unwanted ads.
https://adblockplus.org/
All right! this has gone to far.... . I went to watch a video this morning about a track geometry train... and guess what the first commercial was I had to endure?.....VRBO !
hon30critter rrebell Bottom feed on e-bay for awhile,you won't spend much money but you may buy alot of stuff at bargin basement prices, did that for years when I had no money. I did that for a long time, but then the shipping costs to get the stuff to Canada got prohibitive. The Global Shipping program was a real killer. At some point I will pare down my Athearn BB collection, but for now it can just sit there. I'm thinking of approaching one of the re-sellers but that will only get me pennies on the dollar. I might rent a table or two at the Greater Toronto Train Show in September. Selling the BB stuff on eBay is frustrating because Canada Post's costs are so high. Dave
rrebell Bottom feed on e-bay for awhile,you won't spend much money but you may buy alot of stuff at bargin basement prices, did that for years when I had no money.
I did that for a long time, but then the shipping costs to get the stuff to Canada got prohibitive. The Global Shipping program was a real killer.
At some point I will pare down my Athearn BB collection, but for now it can just sit there. I'm thinking of approaching one of the re-sellers but that will only get me pennies on the dollar. I might rent a table or two at the Greater Toronto Train Show in September. Selling the BB stuff on eBay is frustrating because Canada Post's costs are so high.
mbinsewiI'm so wrapped up on my place up North in WI., trying to get it all done while I still can.
Having your own retreat in the wilderness can be great, and it can also be very demanding. We have a family cottage on the north shore of Georgian Bay in Killarney Provincial Park. Our family has enjoyed it since the 1950s. It was built in 1910 as a temporary headquarters for the Spanish Lumber Company.
Therein lies the problem! Dianne and I spent our vacations there for years, but half of that time was spent doing patchwork repairs and we weren't really addressing the major problems like the log crib that it was built on turning into peat moss years ago. We also had huge mouse and bat problems. Suffice it to say that we gave up on it several years ago. It is now for sale.
These days we find it so much easier to just rent a place for a week or two. Let somebody else worry about the problems and do the grunt work. The places we have rented have been pretty good, and the nice thing about VRBO is that every listing has reviews so any negatives are usually clearly stated. However, if you want to get a place, you have to start looking early because all the good places get snapped up pretty quick.
It's tempting Dave! I used to go fishing with a group of guys in Canada.
I'm so wrapped up on my place up North in WI., trying to get it all done while I still can.
And, unfortunately, through years I have one major blemish on my drivers license record, and I'm not sure if I can get in anymore.
But that's not for here. The places look great! There are many VRBO sites in the USA as well, and in northern WI.
Back to your original thread topic.
mbinsewi Ever since I looked at your get-a-way cabin on VRBO, the right side ad space has been filled with different VRBO places in Canada.
What are you waiting for?!? Come on up!! The $USD goes a long way up here!
I get the same thing on my browser page. I just ignore them.
I didn't know all that Dave, thanks. I never dug into the reason, just always thought buying some from Canada seemed expensive.
I have bought stuff from Kaslo Shops, it was sent via USPS, and seemed reasonable.
PS. On a side note Dave, the wonders of the internet. Ever since I looked at your get-a-way cabin on VRBO, the right side ad space has been filled with different VRBO places in Canada.
mbinsewiI've found a lot of what I'm looking for on Ebay, from Canadian sellers, but the shipping scares me away.
I guess that's the price we pay for having to cover such huge distances. British postal rates are half what the Canadian rates are. I'm not sure if the British government is subsidizing them or not, but I believe that Canada Post has to stand on its own.
What stopped me from buying on eBay from the US was the Global Shipping Program. Pitney Bowes and eBay hooked up to create a system where the US sellers could simply ship an international package to a distribution center and Pitney Bowes would handle all the shipping details. From the sellers' point of view it was wonderful, but what very few of them understood was the exorbitant fees that the buyers were being charged. When the system was first set up the shipping cost for a $10.00 BB freight car could be close to $40.00! Pitney Bowes was charging a shipping fee that was about 25% higher than USPS First Class mail, and then they were charging an 'Import Fee' which was around 60% of the shipping fee on top of that. The Import Fee was a total cash grab. There are no duties on model train stuff coming into Canada that is worth less than $100.00. The whole system was an absolute rip off, but most sellers had no idea what was going on because they were never shown the shipping costs unless they looked up the Canadian eBay listing. I used to send notes to the American sellers telling them how much the Global Shipping Program was charging. To their credit, many of the sellers agreed to ship via USPS First Class instead, but even that has become too expense for low $ items.
I guess I have to agree with you on the shipping, Dave. I've found a lot of what I'm looking for on Ebay, from Canadian sellers, but the shipping scares me away.
rrebellBottom feed on e-bay for awhile,you won't spend much money but you may buy alot of stuff at bargin basement prices, did that for years when I had no money.
She sounds like a keeper to me. Bottom feed on e-bay for awhile,you won't spend much money but you may buy alot of stuff at bargin basement prices, did that for years when I had no money.
gmpullmanA while ago you were looking for N scale signal bridges, Dave. I wonder if you are still searching?
Hi Ed,
Thanks for the lead. Alas, the person who I banged heads with at the club is the same person that I had offered to build the N scale signals for. Unfortunately I won't be building his signals unless there is a major change in circumstances, which I'm not expecting.
I mentioned a little while ago that I had gone on a spending spree in order to try to appease my depression. I said I would stop but there was one item that was up for auction on eBay that I couldn't resist, and I just won the auction. The item is a Rapido Canadian Pacific Tweedsmuir Park dome/observation car. It has the red Pac Man livery but I have ordered a set of replacement decals in the maroon and gold colours to match my other cars. I have been watching eBay for one of these cars for quite some time. There are lots of Rapido and Walthers mid train dome cars listed but this is the first dome/observation end of train car that I have seen.
That car will complete my version of the 'Canadian'. Most of the cars are Walthers more recent models and the locomotives will consist of one Rapido FP9A and two InterMountain F series, one A and one B, all powered and with sound. My next steps will be to install the grab irons on the Walthers units and populate the cars. I will also install lighting with keep alives in the cars that don't have it yet.
Dianne has been supportive of my recent purchases, and she is also very much in favour of me building a layout or having one built. What's not to love?!?
Maybe a little off-topic here, but —
A while ago you were looking for N scale signal bridges, Dave. I wonder if you are still searching?
I stumbled across this while searching for other items:
https://tinyurl.com/swwz3ys
I have assembled other Alkem brass structures. Takes a little patience, and the right solder, but it is rewarding. Maybe there is a source for Alkem models in Canada?
Good Luck, Ed
Indeed. I would love to hang out in that place for a week or two, phone shut off, just relaxing. Hopefully there are lots of waterfowl on that lake, too.
Have to practice a bit with those canoes, not sure if I'd be able to stay upright or not. Plenty of time in small boats, but never did use a canoe before. But to just get out on the water, all nice a quiet with just the sounds of wildlife around you.. man, I'm ready to go now. Been too long since I went camping last. It may be time to step it up and give up the tent though, my back and knees no longer appreciate sleeping like that, even with an air mattress. Though my truck could pull a small popup camper.... We are lucky around here to have many state parks only a short distance away, and most of them have separate camping areas for those with tents and small trailers vs those with motorhomes and those huge palaces on wheels that make that nice cabin look somewhat plain. Lakes, wtaerfalls, all sorts of things to see in the different places. One of the hiking trails at the one park ends up at railroad tracks, too. In service tracks, not some abandond bit.
Dave, that looks like a perfect place to be at ease. I like it!
Tinplate ToddlerDave - as rewarding bird watching is, it´s something limited to the months with more pleasant weather.
Hi Ulrich,
I responded to your comment in the middle of an earlier post so I hope you don't mind me responding to your comment again, but Dianne and I do far more travelling to do bird watching in the winter than we do in the warmer months. We go out at least once per week in the winter to look for Snowy Owls and Hawks. In the warmer months we do make our annual pilgrimage to Point Pelee in May, but most of our bird watching during that time is done right in our own backyard. We do rent a cottage for a week or so every summer, and I always try to find a place with lots of trees around the property so we can watch birds on vacation as well. So far in the past few years we have been pretty successful in that regard. This summer's retreat looks good for birding too:
https://www.vrbo.com/en-ca/cottage-rental/p3534537?adultsCount=4&arrival=2020-08-09&departure=2020-08-16