Hi everybody:
As some of you are aware, my club, the Barrie Allandale Railroad Modellers, has just aquired new quarters. We have about 800 sq. ft. in which to build a new layout. The layout will not be travelling although we will build it in a manner which will allow for disassembly should we decide to move again. We are considering modelling the Allandale yard and the passenger station as it would have been in its heyday in the 1930s, as well as the important features of the trackage that went both north and south from Barrie.
I'm looking for advice and suggestions on how we can go about designing and building the layout. I'm also looking for things to avoid.
Here are some of the questions that are going through my head. I'm sure there will be many more questions as the process moves forward:
- Should we build modules, or go Free-Mo, or build a structure with larger sections that could be separated relatively easily if we have to move?
- If we go for modules, should we ask each member to build modules from the ground up, or have the club build the basic modules so they are all properly matched and then let individual members do the track laying, scenery etc. Or, should we just build the whole thing as a group effort?
- What methods do you suggest for attaching the track ends at the edges of the modules?
- How should we connect the modules, both physically and electrically?
- What else do we need to think about or avoid doing?
Personally, I have a few things that I would like to see done:
- All track sections will have feeders attached.
- We will not rely on rail joiners or turnout points to conduct power.
- I would really like to have live frogs.
- No liquid glue will be used anywhere near turnout moving parts.
- Scenery will be approved by a layout committee. For example, I don't want to walk in one evening and discover that some individual has decided to cover half the layout in static grass, or that they have decided to add white boulders and purple bushes to the yard ballast. Yes, those are actual examples of what has recently happened with our portable layout.
So, let's hear your suggestions. What should we do and what shouldn't we do?
Thanks,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Or, should we just build the whole thing as a group effort?
hon30critter All track sections will have feeders attached. - We will not rely on rail joiners or turnout points to conduct power. - I would really like to have live frogs. - No liquid glue will be used anywhere near turnout moving parts. - Scenery will be approved by a layout committee.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Hey Dave-
A lot of questions. I'll offer comments, in no particular order.
Can you define 'module'? In certain instances that word has a particular meaning. I'd go with modular construction but continuous trackage. That is, no track joints at the end of every wood frame. Easy to construct and transport and place on the layout. Add track after everything is connected and leveled and whatnot.
I'd also go with coordinated construction of the modules. Experienced carpenters working directly alongside the newbies. Everyone can add their personal stamp to the whole, but everyone going their own way produces a motley quilt. Unless that's the look you're going for.
Doesn't have to be only modules. One area or peninsula or something can be modular; another area L-girders and risers or splines.
What about a theme? How are the politics of your club? Everyone get along? Accept decisions?
Enough for now.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
hon30critterPersonally, I have a few things that I would like to see done: - All track sections will have feeders attached. - We will not rely on rail joiners or turnout points to conduct power. - I would really like to have live frogs. - No liquid glue will be used anywhere near turnout moving parts
I agree with the quotes.
I would suggest eight foot long sections, where possible, and as suggested continous track and cork until a future move really occurs. Then three inches of track can be taken out at section joints with a dremel and a razor saw.
DCC wiring use a standard buss system, with suitcased connectors to terminal strips, and then lighter wire to the track. When moving remove suitcase to terminal strip connections, and remove the buss.
My layout is made in 8 foot sections. I have terminal strips on each section and my DCC bus is just daisy chained from section terminal to section terminal.
I don't like IDCs (suitcase connectors).
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
You need more than just the scenery approved by the layout committee. You need standards for all areas including track, couplers, wheels, etc…. including all of the things you mentioned above.If this club is going to have open house visitors make the aisles extra wide and make a separation for the visitors and the operators’/ members’ so that operators can walk next to the layout and visitors are just out of reach but can still follow the layout instead of just being stuck in a viewing area. Modular design eats up space because it is squared. The old L girder method allows the layout to fill the space more efficiently and allows the track plan to flow with the room’s shape. I think history has shown that most layouts that were built to be moved in the future are scrapped instead and the new layout is a fresh start.
I would perhaps do what I did - build the benchwork in sections, as big as can be easily managed (most of mien were 2x8, which with lightweight constrction is easily handled through a standard 30" door. COuld go bigger if the doors are 36" or wider, and if there are no tight corners to negotiate to remove a section from the building). Smaller when it mkes sense. You can vary the shape, since the point is to just make the layout removeable if you have to move, no need to be stuck with rectangles that won;t fill the room efficiently. Leave slack in the bus to allow it to be cut and connectors added, but don;t do that immediately. Likewise, don;t cut the track and roadbed across the benchwork gaps. The layout will be much more reliable, and if you DO have to move, a Dremel makes quick work of cutting the track and roadbed. Odss are the existing layotu wouldn;t go in a new space as-is anyway, you'll either have more room or the same room but in a slightly different shape, so the sections can be reused or recycled as needed IF you move, but until then you will have a solid railroad built on easily movable benchwork sections.
My old layout is stacked in my basement. When the dumpster is delivered to haul the trash from the basement cleaning out and demo, I will take off anything I cn use and the rest is goign right in the dumpster. It doesn;t fit my basement size plan in any way, plus most of the track isn;t even usable - I am switching to Peco for the new layout. I'll save the turnouts, I can probably resell them.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Depending on how big each module is, I would consider providing each one with its own 12 VDC power supply for lighting structures, street lamps and so forth. This will reduce wiring from module to module. On my layout, I've distributed my control panels as well to have fewer turnout wires crossing module boundaries.
The word "module" can be misleading. To me, it implies an edge configuration where tracks must meet at 90 degrees so-and-so many inches from the face. If you are not really planning to re-configure the layout frequently, which is allowed in the modular world, I prefer to think of "sections" which can be physically separated but won't necessarily mate up with other sections. On my layout, I've tried to have track joints at section breaks on the newer parts.
Use a strict color code and label everything under the layout.
I will be taking down my layout soon and moving. I plan to fix a lot of these shortcomings as I dismantle it so re-assemby will be easier.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Thanks for all the replies. Lots to think about.
JaBear:
Thanks again for the PM with the module specs. The end panel jigs are also a great idea. The 1930s was just a rough approximation. I chose that date because I was guessing that that's when activity would have been at its highest with the most number of tracks etc. We want to allow other eras to be run on the layout too. To that end, vehicles and some signs etc. would be interchangeable.
Several people suggested having continuous track and roadbed over the module/section joints. Good idea.
Eight foot modules seem to make sense as a general rule, but as was said, that doesn't have to be set in stone.
I had assumed that we would establish various standards before beginning construction, including things like rail size, turnout mfr.(s), wire size, connection methods etc. etc. We have some Fast Tracks jigs but as far as I know only one member has used them.
Mr. B - If every section has its own 12 VDC power supply, does that mean that we have to run a 120 V bus to feed the power supplies? To me it would make more sense to have a 12 V bus, or maybe several buses to reduce the amperage on each section of the bus.
Please keep the ideas coming.
Thanks
For what you are doing it is best to build the modules top with foam individual to each module, bolt them together but then run the track like it was one peice with care not to do complicated work on the seams. Should you need to move, just cut out a bit of track and replace at your new location. No complicated wiring or anything else to worry about and with just a bit of slack in the buss wires, as long as they are stranded, you can put them back together with Posi-taps and they will be like new.
Thanks rrebell.
My suggestion is to appoint a foreman for the entire project who would be responsible for all final decisions, and for doling out individual tasks. Is there a railroad term for construction forman? Although the track plan design may require a different lead person. Obviously, it may be necessary for a general discussion when an issue comes up before a final decision is made.
What is a camel? A horse designed by committee.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
I'm going to come at it from the Free-mo perspective. Some things to keep in mind:
In Free-mo (or similar modular standards), everybody owns their own modules. This has many implications that are not obvious at the beginning.
- a club member moves away (or quits the club) and takes his modules with him (or sells them to the club or a club member). Just think about that for a moment - there is both good and bad. On a fixed club layout, when a member moves, he loses his investment. This gives people who move a lot of heartburn about joining fixed layout clubs, and creates heartburn when an unexpected move comes.
- If maintenance/repair is needed on a given module, it is the module owner's responsibility. This (to me) is a big advantage of modular because you don't have to gather club members in a meeting to fix things. One on one help teaches and advances the module owner.
- dues can be rather low, as most of the layout expenses fall on the individual. The club only needs to pay for the space and the DCC system. DC wiring does not work well for a changing/changeable layout.
- Modular layouts do not make the most efficient use of a given space. However, the layout is also very easy to change, modify, add to, subtract from.
- Module owners will build the module sets they want to build. Depending on the club membership, you may find you don't have enough of a given type of module set - whether it be yards, straight scenery runs, switching locations, passing sidings, etc. If the club is cohesive, the shortage will be recognized and somebody will step up to build the missing module sets. But the club as a whole has to recognize what the layout is missing in the first place. The module-building process may be a lot easier and faster (and more accepted) than a layout design committee followed by construction approach.
- Modules (some or all) can be temporarily removed and set up at a train show or modular set-up or other special event. There you can show others what great things you are doing.
- Everybody learns how to lay track, build scenery, and wire in doable chunks on their own modules. The club experts help each module owner learn and become better modelers.
- All the module owners have real skin in the game, and care about where the club is going or headed. In modular clubs, a lot of votes are limited to module owners (as I think it should be).
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
Bear:
I like the concept of having a foreman.
Fred W:
Thanks for all the input on Free-Mo. Lots to consider.
To everyone:
It would be helpful to have a basic idea of what modules cost per foot to do the basic construction, i.e. legs and frame, sub roadbed, roadbed, track, wiring and basic scenery like ballast. Let's leave out buildings, vehicles, turnouts, mountains, valleys, bridges, rivers, roads etc. and just assume that there are a couple of straight tracks. I know that is an oversimplification, but it would be nice to be able to tell club members that if they do 'X' feet of module, the starting cost will be 'YY' dollars. Anyone have any idea of the basic cost?
ROBERT PETRICKCan you define 'module'? In certain instances that word has a particular meaning.
Robert:
Sorry, I should have answered your question sooner. I'm using the term 'module' fairly loosely. In other words, building the layout in detachable sections vs one solid structure. I deliberately haven't defined the size of the modules or how easily separated they should be so I can see what everyone has to suggest.
hon30critter Sorry, I should have answered your question sooner.
Sorry, I should have answered your question sooner.
Naw, don't worry about that. Others have commented on the idea of building wood 'modular' frames (up to about 2' by 8') in the workshop or in member's garages or someplace and bringing them into the layout room and assembling and connecting them together.
I'm more interested in the Allendale Station. I've seen photos. It's a beauty. Will the layout you're talking about be there? Or is securing room there for a layout still in the early preliminary planning stages? Or pre-preliminary?
The difference of a module to a segment or section of a layout is quite simple - a module has standardized ends, so it can interface with any other module which is built to the same standards, while swections or segmnet only fit in their bespoke place of a layout. Modules don´t have to be square or rectangular, they can be of about any shape you can think of.
Dave,
I strongly recommend the modular approach, according to the Freemo or any other standard the folks in your club can agree upon. I also like the idea of a "project manager", whose job it should be to coordinate the development of a master plan for the layout and the assignement of who is going to build which module to the club members.
I have been a member of a round robin group building a NG layout this way and it worked nicely! When I moved away, I simply donated the modules I had built to the group, which has the layout set up in the basement of the home of one of the group´s members.
ROBERT PETRICKI'm more interested in the Allendale Station. I've seen photos. It's a beauty. Will the layout you're talking about be there? Or is securing room there for a layout still in the early preliminary planning stages?
Good question!
Here is a bit of the history and some photos:
http://www.eraarch.ca/project/allandale-station/
Here is the situation as I understand it. I may have some of my facts wrong:
The city of Barrie has spent millions of dollars restoring the Allandale station but it currently sits empty. What future uses it will be put to remain up in the air. The city has asked for proposals for tenants for the main building and the restaurant and they have received some offers, but they haven't been able to attract the 'quality' of tenant that they would like. Putting a fast food restaurant or a sporting goods store into the facility would seem to defeat the whole concept behind the high grade restoration.
The section that we would probably be housed in is the original Station Master's office which is the square building on the right when looking at the station from Kempenfelt Bay (east). So far as I know there are no firm plans for that building's use.
IIUC, there is another problem that has yet to be addressed. There is still a lot of contaminated soil around the buildings, and the cost to remove that is apparently pretty steep. The city hasn't made the decision to move forward on that.
So, that's where things stand. The whole project is on vacation in the Carribean dancing the Limbo!
Personally, I'm not really in favour of moving the club into the station. I can see there being a lot of complications.
Cost, my entire layout cost arround $500 for all modules including wiring, it is a 15'x30' giant dogbone, that includes legs, framing, bolts, screws, and plaster cloth and wiring. It dose not include the cork or track or other stuff. One module (2'x4') cost less than $35 at todays prices, less plaster cloth which is cheap if bought in bulk on e-bay.
Thanks rrebell,
hon30critter It would be helpful to have a basic idea of what modules cost per foot to do the basic construction, i.e. legs and frame, sub roadbed, roadbed, track, wiring and basic scenery like ballast. Let's leave out buildings, vehicles, turnouts, mountains, valleys, bridges, rivers, roads etc. and just assume that there are a couple of straight tracks. I know that is an oversimplification, but it would be nice to be able to tell club members that if they do 'X' feet of module, the starting cost will be 'YY' dollars. Anyone have any idea of the basic cost? Thanks Dave
I don't think of it as by the foot. Our HOn3 modules are typically 2ft by 3-4ft in length. Because we don't have a permanent home, portability is important. One person can lift and carry up to 4ft, but that is the max. Modules that were built longer often don't get used.
Usually there are 2-3 modules in a module set for a yard, large industry, special scene, junction, etc. Modules are made wider where the scene or track arrangement demands it. Corners and fitter pieces will go down to as narrow as 12", with a tapered piece connecting to the 2ft modular standard width.
I would say it would be very difficult to build a 2 module set to our specs for less than $500, all up, and would most likely end up in the $700+ range with a structure or two.
We require furniture grade 3/4" plywood end plates, anything less just won't take the stress of transport and clamping. Our newer legs are generally made from 2x2 - finding straight pieces of 2x2 is a shopping adventure. The two piece legs are drilled for threaded rod to allow top adjustment of the leg length - most venues where we set up have very uneven floors. We mandate top adjustment to prevent back injuries and crawling on the floor to adjust leg length.
Add roadbed, track, turnouts, turnout motors, DCC and accessory bus wiring, face plates for throttles to plug in and turnout controls (required both sides), Anderson connectors at both ends, scenic cover (rock molds and hill material add up), and the costs are there. It's really not too different from an all up cost for a 4x8 MR starter (project) layout. We have less square footage, but are building to a higher quality level.
Other mandates are painted fascia (club standard color), black curtains from floor to fascia (attach with Velcro), and a circuit breaker for each module set. Then and only then is a module set show-ready.
Not all the money is required up front. Building a show-ready module set usually takes a full year or more. And we do work together on things like curtains, fascia paint, and specialized tools.
hope this helps
hon30critter Personally, I'm not really in favour of moving the club into the station. I can see there being a lot of complications.
Yeah, you're probably right. Once you get involved with bureaucrats and local politicians (not to mention Dept of Environmental Regulation) there's no end to it.
On another note . . . How's your club set up? Not being nosy or anything, just curious. Is it chartered, registered, or incorporated, etc? I belonged to a club that was registered as a non-profit educational club. Not to avoid taxes or liability or anything, but set up to receive charitable contributions. The 501(c) designation (or the Canadian equivalent) might encourage local businesses to contribute stuff.
We had a guy who was half Baptist preacher and half used car salesman; a real white shoes and white belt kind of guy. Managed to talk a lot of people into donating a lot of stuff: building materials, supplies, paint, nuts-and-bolts, and whatnot. Plywood, sheetrock, sheetrock mud, light fixtures, ceiling tiles . . . even a new basin for the bathroom. A lot of scratch-and-dent, discontinued items, and mismatched, odd color paint, but most of it very usable. Construction companies always have a lot of left over lumber and plywood scraps. Not saying you should go dumpster diving or anything, but asking around might really help.
Also, you might be able to get some city park and recreation grants or something. But be careful, public tax-payer grants often come with a lot of strings attached.
Anyhow, good luck.
For legs I riped the 1x4 and made an l shaped leg, very cheap and very strong. 1x4's are some of the cheapest wood in pine and yes you can get straight ones at the big box store. You need to look at them as cut up peices, so a 10' board might get you 4 or 5 peices that are 22 1/2". The size I use for the ends and middle, a 10' boad might yeild two 4' peices and an end, etc.
I think you need to consider why you want modules. If the only reasojn is to deal with the eventuality of moving, then like rrebell noted, why worry about the fancy stuff required for the end-to-end connections? Build them so they can be separated and forgo the fancy module interchange stuff and you'll save a bunch of time and effort.
If you do anticipate something opther than a potential move in the event a different space is needed fort the layout and do want to buiild something ready to take apart (RTTA?), then the FREMO standards work well and provide for a lot of useful future flexibility.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
fwrighthope this helps Fred W
Thanks Fred:
It does help a lot. Obviously just using a $ figure for the basic module parts could be misleading so it helps to see the approximate costs for a fully finished module as well.
ROBERT PETRICKOn another note . . . How's your club set up? Not being nosy or anything, just curious. Is it chartered, registered, or incorporated, etc?
Hi Robert:
I'm not certain of the exact status of the club but I know that it is not-for-profit. We do not have charitable status.
mlehmanI think you need to consider why you want modules. If the only reasojn is to deal with the eventuality of moving, then like rrebell noted, why worry about the fancy stuff required for the end-to-end connections? Build them so they can be separated and forgo the fancy module interchange stuff and you'll save a bunch of time and effort.
Hi Mike:
The reason I am asking all these questions is so that I can offer informed suggestions about what our layout construction options are. Modules are just one option (actually they offer several options given the size variations that are possible).
Here is a summary of the options as I see them. These are NOT in order of preference:
1. Build a single large structure similar to what is done for permanent home layouts. Doing it in reasonably sized sections that can be dismantled at some point in the future seems to make sense. Theoretically, the work can be spread out among all members of the club, with suitable training included for those without experience.
2. Build a 'formal' modular layout, i.e. 2' x 4' standard modules with matching end panels. This could be done in several ways:
a. Each person builds and owns their module(s) from the ground up,
b. The club builds the basic modules as a group and individuals or small groups finish them,
c. The club does everything as a group.
d. I'm sure there are other possibilities.
3. Go 'Free-Mo' with each member building their own sections. Whether or not we strictly adhere to the formal Free-Mo rules is another question.
As it stands now, the layout isn't going to be moved around much if ever. It might get moved to the Allandale Station or it might not. We don't know if that will ever happen. We might find a better club house, but that is doubtful given what we can afford to pay for rent.
Just to throw a curve into the discussion, it might be smarter to decide on a layout design before choosing the method of construction. For example, if we model the Allandale yard, doing that in 2' x 4' sections might not be the smartest approach.
Thanks again everyone for your input! My wee brain is a bit overloaded!
Best wishes to all!
A thought on options 2 and 3, but implicit in Option 1.
If the members are all or mostly experienced modelers with good woodworking skills, then letting each go their own way in creating the entire is feasible.
If there's a wide variance in skills/tools available among the members, it might be wise to build the modules as a group project at least to the point of being able to lay track. That way the skilled members can ensure consistency and standardization.
Why? Even if all are skilled, getting a good match between modules is critical and not as easy as it sounds. Finishing to that point ensures that there's at least a workable chance that when the modules come back with track laid on them and awaiting the link up, things will work out OK. Best practice would be aimed at establishing at least a continuous track center line across all module boundaries before they go their separate ways to be finished by individual members. Doing that helps ensure what comes in between, like locating curves and other track features so they will be accurate enough to suit your needs.
Also, using smaller modules creates a need for more accuracy in greater quantity, although rationalizing a track plan so that larger modules will be used for larger track features like a yard makes a lot of sense. That's where the FREMO concept proves useful, although I agree that for a club concept that depicts a complete stand-alone layout unlikely to be broken down choosing to observe just the standards needed to get the club's needs met makes sense.
If it does end up in a space that could be expandable from time to time, you might anticipate that by adding at least one full-on FREMO interface to the original layout whether or not the layout is designed with it in place, This would also allow guest modules to link up easily. Taking adfvantage of the opportunity to add guest exhibits from time to time is a good way to freshen things and get more return visitors in a large display setting if the station provides space for that.
mlehmanIf it does end up in a space that could be expandable from time to time, you might anticipate that by adding at least one full-on FREMO interface to the original layout whether or not the layout is designed with it in place, This would also allow guest modules to link up easily. Taking adfvantage of the opportunity to add guest exhibits from time to time is a good way to freshen things and get more return visitors in a large display setting if the station provides space for that.
More good points!
The concept of being able to add interfaces to our portable layout has been in place for a long time. In our old clubhouse we had an around the walls modular layout that was purposely built at the same height as our travelling layout. The plan (never realized) was to be able to link the two layouts together.
The biggest challenge was the lack of space. Our new clubhouse will give us a lot more flexibility to do that sort of thing IF we want to. The 'IF' raises a whole new set of questions about how to build the new layout. If we don't allow space for the portable layout to be set up in the clubhouse so we can work on it, then I think the reliability of the portable layout will go to you know where in a hurry. Logic suggests that we should build the permanent layout with the ability to attach the portable layout to it if for no other reason than to be able to maintain the travelling layout. We could have a permanent layout and the travelling layout as two separate layouts in the same room. However, we only have 800 sq. ft. to work with and the travelling layout would take up 1/4 of that space by itself.
Decisions, decisions!!
Thanks Mike.