I think the top number of posts still belongs to our missed friend Jeffrey (Running Bear). Years ago, we were running neck to neck in post count, but then I was away for a few years and not active and he became more active, and it would be a long time bfore anyone catches up with him.
Now if you mean in a single thread...
I have to admire your ability to stick to it. If you look at my web site, BOTH times I tried to maintain steady updates on the progress of the layout I was building, I eventually sort of gave up and only updated at rather infrequent intervals. It starts out great, both times, pretty much a new update every night or at least every weekend I got to work on the layout - then there are gaps of a year. The sad thing is, there wasn;t much change in either layout over that year with no updates. Hopefully I can do better this time. Maybe even do some video. But I am not going to appear on camera, and when I hear myself on a video or audio recording I cringe, not sure anyone would want to actually hear me blab on. But the time is coming - basically just have to finish the floor, then it's time to get detailed measurements and hope the contractor can start sooner rather than later on the walls. Might be pushing but I'd love to start benchwork by the end of January.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
WOW!!
64046 views!! 882 posts!! I am amazed!!
I think I deserve an award. How about the "Forum Member With The Most Verbal Diarrhea!" since most the posts are likely mine,
Thanks for everyone's interest!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Water Level RouteThat is great news! Seems they appreciate your business as much as you appreciate their hospitality.
They should appreciate our business! We estimate that they will get at least $20,000 in sales in their own gift shop and greenhouse over the two days. That is based on 1/4 of our paying visitors spending an average of $35.00 on greenhouse and gift products in their store. It might be much higher!
We also give our visitors a coupon worth $6.00 off of a minimum $30.00 purchase in the greenhouse shops and the visitors love it! That certainly offers something for the ladies who might not otherwise attend our show. That draws people in to the greenhouse shop.
We also spend about $1500.00 on radio ads which obviously mention the greenhouse.
We also give them a share of the admission revenue above a certain attendance level. The greenhouse doesn't seem to mind that at all.
Now, before any of you start suggesting that we are giving them too sweet a deal, you have to remember a few facts:
- One is that they have not increased our rental costs in over 6 years.
- The second is that they have increased the space that we can use this year (2020) by about 33% for the same $ as the last six years.
- The third is that they are letting us use their crowd control barriers at no charge which is saving us about $1000.00.
- The fourth is that they are willing to put power drops wherever we need them in the greenhouse space. That is no small task! The ceilings are 25' high.
- The fifth fact is that there is only one other suitable venue in the area. Georgian College has a similar space available but at a much higher cost and they don't offer the alternate attraction that the greenhouse does. Also, they charge for parking and their parking lots aren't big enough to begin with. To add insult to injury, when we approached them a few years ago their attitude was 'take it or leave it'. We left it.
All in, we are getting a fair deal, and most importantly we are meeting or exceeding our net revenue goals.
Cheers guys!!
Dave,
That is great news! Seems they appreciate your business as much as you appreciate their hospitality.
Mike
We got some good news on Friday about the venue that we rent for our February show and sale.
The first thing was that the hosts are giving us quite a bit more space than what we had anticipated without increasing the rent! The extra space will allow us to widen the aisles to about 10' or more, and it will allow us to have more space around the display layouts.
The second bit of good news is that our hosts can now supply the barriers that we need to put up around the show. The show is held in a huge greenhouse, but we only take up about 1/3rd of the total area. That means that we have to put up something to control the access to the show. We were looking at renting crowd control barriers but that would have set us back almost $1000. That's a big chunk of our profits! Now, they won't cost us anything!
The third bit of news is that we were concerned that we wouldn't be able to get power to all of the vendors and exhibitors who need it. Our hosts said very simply "tell us where you need power and you will have power". That will mean that they will have to drop about 20 power cords from the 25' ceiling because the Fire Marshal won't allow unprotected cords to be run across the floor, and buying enough cord protectors would be costly.
We are happy campers!! Our hosts have saved us close to $1400 in potential expenses.
Strange how second thoughts can come back to haunt you.
Tuesday night we finally got around to sorting through the buildings, cars and other bits that have been donated to the club. There were about 10 large boxes containing built structures, unopened kits and rolling stock.
I must be picky. Most of the assembled stuff fell under my definition of 'junk'. There were some scratch built structures mostly made out of fluorescent ceiling light lenses. They were hideous! There were probably 25 assembled buildings of the DPM kit style. Almost all of them had obvious gaps at the joints and had glue all over the place. None of them had been painted. They were just slapped together right out of the package. There were about 40 cars. We saved four of them. I'm sure you are getting the picture!
We decided to save some of the 'Main Street' style buildings. I'm not sure why because we don't have any space for a Main Street scene. The rest we will try to sell for a couple of bucks each at our show in February. If they don't sell they will be going to the dump.
Now the reason behind my opening sentence. When we first moved into the new clubhouse 2 1/2 years ago we said that we would not accept any donations for the simple reason that we didn't have the space to store them. However, after seeing the first couple of offerings a couple of the guys decided that we could make a few bucks from this stuff and so we changed our decision. Fast forward to last Tuesday night. With all this crap spread out over just about every flat surface we could find, including four folding tables, there was hardly room to move! After going through everything we still had 10 boxes of stuff that we had no space for, although granted it was all nicely sorted now. I think the only things that will actually end up on the layout are a few small shantys and the four box cars! Other than the unopened kits, I doubt that we will get $100.00 for the rest of it!
Just so you know, I decided to not point out the mess that the clubhouse was in.
rrinkerSo consider that - branching out may actually turn people away instead of bringing in more.
Very good point!
rrinkerconsider keeping the non-train stuff apart from the train stuff.
Another good point!
The club's response has been cool to expanding the show. The concensus is that we will deal with the problem if and when it becomes a problem. At least, if anything, we will have an idea of what to do if we do end up needing more revenue.
Thanks for your input.
Sounds like you are doing just fine the way it is then, if there is high attendence. That keeps the vendors happy (if enough of them buy). There's another show near me that always was known for having lots of hi-rail and tinplate, but there was plenty of scale stuff too. The last time I went, there was very little scale stuff, and plenty of tables selling all sorts of non-train stuff. I haven't been back to compare attendence, and I didn;t always go year after year, usually it was one of those "well, I'm not doing anything else this morning" type of things. I don't know if adding all the non-train stuff has helped or hurt them, but I was always on the dence and not a regular simply because there was so much hi-rail stuff that i wasn't really interested in. So consider that - branching out may actually turn people away instead of bringing in more. If you're drawing solid crowds and a solid group of vendors year over year, I'd keep going the way you are. Take hearsay for what it's worth, but if you have a demonstrable decline in attendence not explainable by weather or other events outside your control - then consider alternatives.
If you do end up having to expand the horizons a bit - sonsider keeping the non-train stuff apart from the train stuff. This is something I always liked about Timonium, it's an all-scales show, so you get all the scale stuff as well as tinplate and hi-rail, but they keep the tinplate and hi-rail and large scale and, a couple of times, REALLY large scale, apart from the scale stuff. I end up looking at it all anyway, but if I were there for only scale trains, I wouldn;t have to wander past table after table of stuff I wasn;t interested in, and likewise if I was there for some hi-rail stuff, I wouldn;t have to go past all those tables to scale stuff trying to find what I was looking for. At least, that's how they used to do it, I actually haven't been there in a few years to see if the new show runners have kept to the same formula or not.
Hi Randy,
Competition from other shows isn't an issue. There is nothing else happening within a couple of months of our show.
Attracting more vendors might be a challenge. Most of the vendors who are within a reasonable distance of Barrie already attend the show. There are a couple of vendors that we know of who aren't willing to come to Barrie in the middle of winter despite the fact that the show is quite well attended. We have invited them more than a few times but they aren't interested. Barrie has a reputation for bad winter weather which it doesn't really deserve. The weather for our last three shows has been sunny and clear. We always have a couple of new vendors every year but most of them are individuals looking to sell their private collections.
Aisle space is dictated by the fire codes, and the local Fire Marshal is a stickler for following the rules to the letter. All the aisles are minimum 8' wide and they have to be straight. The aisles run both north-south and east-west so it is reasonably easy to get around the show. It does get a little crowded by about 11:00 on the Saturday morning but people can still move around. Any bottle necks are usually caused by parents with the double wide strollers.
We could make the show much bigger in the venue that we are using, but the added cost isn't justifiable unless we attract a bunch more vendors. Last year we didn't have to turn anyone away.
Well, they are all a month or more apart, so I wouldn't consider that competition either. If I considered shows within 75 miles of here, I'd have to include Timonium which gets mentioned a lot around here, the one I mentioned in my last message, and a couple others nearby. None at the same time. It's just that the one mentioned seems to think they own the city they are in and will tolerate no competition, even though their shows are Fall and Spring. What they are is afraid, because all it takes is a more comfortable venue where atendees can actually stand and look at what each vendor is selling without constatly being jostled and they are done, no vendor would keep coming back. For those that have been to Timonium but not this one, imagine if the aisles at Timonium were half as wide as they are. You can't really stop and talk with a vendor, even in the middle of a transaction you might get shuffled halfway down the table. A more open and relaxed environment would surely drive more sales. I haven't been to this show in years, the overcrowding just drives me nuts.
rrinker Are there other train shows held locally by others? As in, what's your competition in the model trains only market.
Randy:
There are a variety of Model Train shows within a 75 mile radius of each other in Southern Ontario.
Bowmanville in October, Whitby in November, Belleville in December, Barrie in Feb., and Lindsay in April all spring to mind.
Plus Toronto Convention Centre, and west of Toronto at various times.
We don't consider the other shows as competitors, but rather as friends. Most clubs who host shows all take part in some other shows, and have a table of flyers for shows we both attend and don't attend.
Are there other train shows held locally by others? As in, what's your competition in the model trains only market. The group (not a model railroad club) that runs one of the local shows here has somehow managed to continue to survive despite some rather underhanded dealings with vendors, and the vendors all seem to put up with it because there is simply no other show at that time. The one time a group led by a local club tried to organize a competing show, though not on the same weekend, not even close, these guys basically threatened any of their regulars that if they bough tables at this new show, they wouldn;t be welcome back to their show, so the new show quickly fizzled. Shame is, it was a MUCH nice venue, easier to get to, much more parking, and no having to pass single file between tables because they cram them in so close. The long time show guys were, of course, careful to not come right out and say this in so many words, or put anything in writing, which could have gotten them in legal trouble.
I'm not suggesting you become a new mafia don How would that work in Canada anyway, to politely threaten someone to pay up their protection money? But if the show does well, with not a lot of competition to get vendors, I'd stay targeted to model railroading (or related stuff, most of the shows around here have railroadania vendors and related items like shirts/mugs with railroad logos) and see if you can't attract even more vendors. As expenses go up, you might have to raise the table price a bit. As long as the vendors feel they can still make a decent profit, they won't run off to another show instead. It wouldn't be much, but every little bit helps. And the more vendors you can attract, hopefully the better the turnout, which attracts even more for the next show.
Hi gang,
I have started a dialogue amongst the club Executive Committee about the question of the long term survival of the club. In the past we have been paying our bills with funds from our annual show and sale, and with membership fees. That has worked well for us for many years. However, given that the hobby is aging, it is predictable that the show, and perhaps the club, will diminish in size over time. Obviously if the show shrinks then so will our revenues.
In light of this reality, I suggested that we consider the possibility of expanding the show to include other hobbies. RC planes and cars come to mind immediately, and there is always the possibility of attracting some war gamers.
Right off the start, the logistics present quite a challenge. Expanding the show will require a lot more work and that takes manpower. We are already limited in that regard, so the question is where do we get more bodies? If we invite other clubs to take part they will obviously want a share of the gate. That begs the question of whether or not our share of the revenues will increase enough to justify all the work of organizing a larger show. It also presents the risk of higher losses if the show fails, as it could well do in Barrie in mid Feburary if the weather sticks it to us.
The other option is to stay with what we have been doing for the past 50 years and milk the system until it runs dry. Change is inevitable, so maybe I should reconcile myself to the fact that the club may eventually die. I just hope that I go first!
Does anyone have any suggestions about how to plan for the future?
Randy,
Our portable layout isn't quite that large! It is 6' x 12' and is composed of nine modeles, each 2' x 4'. It is moved in two roughly 2' x 4' x 5' plywood boxes, also on casters. Each box holds four modules, and the last module rides on top. Originally the layout was set up using the two boxes as supports, but recently we built three tables to support the modules. The original setup was too high in the air for most younger kids to see. Everything fits into one small trailer. Set up and take down takes about 20 minutes.
The biggest challenge that we have with it is that it doesn't like to be set up on uneven floors. If it isn't level, we suffer derailments where the modules meet. It has also required a lot of rebuilding and rewiring even though it is only about eight years old. It was designed to be light weight for obvious reasons, but the construction doesn't like the temperature changes that it goes through when it is in the trailer.
We made ours easier - instead of carrying each section (and ours builds to a HUGE layout if we put all parts in - something like 28x160+ feet), they are carried in wheeled carts. It takes 3 trailers PLUS space in the beds of the pulling pickup trucks to carry the whole thing. We now roll out a cart of modules on industrial casters to right where the modules on it will get set up, just lift off, extend the legs, and go. The old way, we used to have to carry each module, which depending on the size takes 2 to 4 people, from the parking lot into the venue, and it took hours to set up a much smaller layout. Now 2 people can handle a cart with as many as 6 modules on it, and it takes far less time to set up an even larger layout. Then there are the nice big venues where we can drive right in and offload the carts right by the setup area, and don't have to move them very far.
The carts are very simple, pretty much all 2x4 construction with big heavy duty casters, 2 swivel and 2 fixed. Rails on the sides, like drawer slides, hold th models. Some are simply inclined to keep the model in, others have a detachable brace across the front to keep the model from sliding out in transport. Some of the older modules that use bolts to hold together when set up, we simply drilled a hole in the side piece and stick a bolt in to hold it. The size of the rack is determined by what fits in the trailer, and how many modules fit on a rack depend on the height of the modules.
davidmurrayWondered why I didn't see you.
Sorry I missed you Dave. When I went back out to move the van and trailer after we unloaded, it was all I could do to keep standing. Walking even the short distance to go back inside just wasn't an option. Very frustrating!
Dave:
Wondered why I didn't see you. Our layouts are built in smaller pieces, so they can fit into smaller vechicles. My Sante Fe holds 5/6 of the HO layout, plus some boxes. Thus we are never dependent on any one person transporting things.
As to brains instead of brawn, we all get older, and hope to get wiser.
We attended the Pine Ridge Modellers show in Whitby, Ontario this weekend. We hadn't been to their show in several years because it is a fair distance from Barrie, but we decided to honour their invite this year. Hopefully they will reciprocate at our show in February.
By all accounts the show was well attended so everyone was happy, that is except for the two guys from our club who were the only members who showed up on Sunday. There were supposed to be at least four guys on Sunday. I thought we had proper coverage based on the sign up sheets but I think what happened is that a couple of guys showed up on the Saturday who were supposed to be there on Sunday. That happened because initially we were short of people on the Saturday so we put the word out that we needed more people that day. Instead of getting more people to sign up, all that happened was that people switched days.
As a result of the lack of attendance I will have to monitor who is scheduled to attend the shows much more carefully. We thought we had everything worked out a few days before the show but apparently that wasn't the case. I guess I will have to verify the schedule with each individual right before the weekend.
I went to the show both days as well, but all I could do is haul the trailer. I tried to help unload on Saturday morning but after about 20 minutes I could barely walk because of my back problems. I got there at 3:30 on Sunday, but there was very little that I could do, again because my back was hurting so much.
I guess I'll have to start using more brain instead of braun!
ROBERT PETRICKHow are the club's 'operating sessions' set up? Are they specifically for or strictly for operations? You know, with schedules and time tables and train orders and whatnot? I realize things are in their early stages and not yet fully organized, but is a formal operating session with everyone involved what y'all are shooting for? Or, do some members show up at the sessions and just run their trains freelance on the layout?
Hi Robert,
As you said, we are still in the very early stages. Up until now we have pretty much let people do what they want just to have fun with their trains. Keep in mind that the new layout wasn't useable for the first 1 1/2 years and the portable layout was being repaired during much of that time so it had been a while since anyone had had a throttle in their hands, other than at the shows where we just watch the trains go around in circles anyhow. We felt that it was important to take a few breaks from construction to let the guys run some trains once we were able to do so.
During the first few running sessions that was all we did. Some people wanted to do laps and others wanted to work an industry or work in the yards so we let them do what they wanted. I had naively hoped that spending some time running trains would help people learn the layout and learn to work with each other. Obviously very little of that has happened. That's why I said I am partially to blame for the problems because I sat back instead of taking an active role. Now I'm going to take an active role!
While we haven't spent much time trying to coordinate train movements yet, we have started the process of learning how to use basic JMRI to set up operating sessions. Only a couple of us are working on learning JMRI at this point, although I have encouraged everyone to download the program and study it. However, as has been said a couple of times, JMRI is useless if people can't manage to get their trains around the layout without running into somebody or running a turnout the wrong way. I won't go into the reasons for why some people can't do that again. It has already been explained.
The bottom line is that I am the President of the club. Therefore I have a responsibility to make sure that the club functions properly. That includes making sure that the club is viable in the long term, and it also demands that I make sure the club functions properly on a day in, day out basis. That obviously requires that I do some things that I would rather not have to do, like teaching people how to run trains properly. I would love for things to just drop into place. Unfortunately, some things drop onto the floor instead of onto the tracks. I see it as my job to help things get picked up off the floor.
Thank you again everyone for your input and your interest.
Can everything be explained in hockey terms? Perhaps it can. Actually, despite having only visited Tortonto once, of all the pro sports, my favorite to go catch a live game in hockey. Anyway...
While that makes a lot of sense, it's ALSO the responsibility of the couple of players working on skills instead of playing in the practice game to not go charging out across center ice while the ones playing the game are trying to move the puck up and down.
Since the gorup I'm with is a modular setup, we usually don;t do formal operations. SOmetimes, if a venue lets us back in the building after regular hours, but when the crowds are around, the trains pretty much just run around in circles. Occasionally a route gets changed, or a special gets run, making even those circulating trains have to pay attention to signals (one that gets a lot of attention is the high and wide train, which is made up of all cars carrying steel beams and so forth spanning 3 flat cars, or tall tank dish ends stnading up in gons - individually realistic but all in one singel train? Not so much. Or the gold train - a train of shorty iron ore hoppers with the loads painted gold, along with a couple of flat cars carrying tanks, and plenty of soldiers guarding it). When I get bored I take one of my switchers over to the coal yard and start switching loads and empties in and out of the breaker. More fun than running around in circles. ANd completely off the main so no interference from any other running trains - which is the key part of this. I'm doing my own thing, but not impacting anyone else who is doing theirs.
hon30critter rrinker Well, I WAS going to say baseball bat, but three things: a) baseball season is over, b) it's hockey season, and c) you and your club are canuckian Dave
rrinker Well, I WAS going to say baseball bat, but three things: a) baseball season is over, b) it's hockey season, and c) you and your club are canuckian
I'll try to couch my question in a way our Canuck cousins might be familiar with . . .
How are the club's 'operating sessions' set up? Are they specifically for or strictly for operations? You know, with schedules and time tables and train orders and whatnot? I realize things are in their early stages and not yet fully organized, but is a formal operating session with everyone involved what y'all are shooting for? Or, do some members show up at the sessions and just run their trains freelance on the layout?
Even though I am from the deep south, I play ice hockey. The local rink schedules weekly 2-hour sessions called 'stick time'. Typically, after a few minutes of warmup and skating around, these sessions devolve into a pickup game with most of the players forming into two teams. But, there are always one or two guys who use the limited time the ice sheet is available to work on their skills individually and they don't want to participate in an informal game. As is their right.
So, formal scheduled operating session where everyone knows what is expected up front? Or, do some attendees think the layout is open for unstructured play time?
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
hon30critter The process of revising the basic operating rules several times has reminded of something that I have to guard myself against. One member of the Executive tends to state things rather bluntly. On a few occassions in the past I have overreacted to some of the issues that he has raised. That was the case with the operating rules. He was the person who pointed out the fact that we will never be able to have proper operations if the basic running rules aren't being observed. That fact ticked me off so I immediately started out all gungho to get these guys following the rules or else. That resulted in the inclusion of a threat of discipline when I rewrote the rules. It took me a few days to realize that, once again, I had overreacted. In the future I will have to remind myself to take a step back before charging ahead. I guess it's called being mature. Dave
The process of revising the basic operating rules several times has reminded of something that I have to guard myself against. One member of the Executive tends to state things rather bluntly. On a few occassions in the past I have overreacted to some of the issues that he has raised. That was the case with the operating rules. He was the person who pointed out the fact that we will never be able to have proper operations if the basic running rules aren't being observed. That fact ticked me off so I immediately started out all gungho to get these guys following the rules or else. That resulted in the inclusion of a threat of discipline when I rewrote the rules. It took me a few days to realize that, once again, I had overreacted. In the future I will have to remind myself to take a step back before charging ahead. I guess it's called being mature.
rrinkerWell, I WAS going to say baseball bat, but three things: a) baseball season is over, b) it's hockey season, and c) you and your club are canuckian
Well, I WAS going to say baseball bat, but three things: a) baseball season is over, b) it's hockey season, and c) you and your club are canuckian.
Hi Rich,
I appreciate your comments and suggestions, but on second thought we have decided to remove the threat of discipline from the rules page entirely and replace it with an explanation of the reasoning behind the rules. I don't like the idea of threatening everyone with disciplinary action when I know that only a few members might potentially need to be taken aside, which is how I will handle anyone who continues to be a problem. I want to keep the club atmosphere positive. Threatening everybody will do the opposite, but thanks for letting me get my frustrations out!
rrinkerthat's common sense which no amount of training or beating with a hockey stick will fix.
Baseball bat maybe? Golf club?? I know, I'll beat them with the carrot!!
rrinker But letting the train just run free while stopping to chat, or not paying attention to what's in front when they are right there - that's common sense which no amount of training or beating with a hockey stick will fix.
But letting the train just run free while stopping to chat, or not paying attention to what's in front when they are right there - that's common sense which no amount of training or beating with a hockey stick will fix.
Maybe no amount of training or beating, but I still like the concept of monetary fines.
Rich
Alton Junction
Some of these thing are not like the others.
Not knowing how to run a train, when they have no layotu at home, etc - is somewhat to be expected. Maybe one club night could be a "how to run trains" night, for those with no experience - and even those who think they know might learn something, especially if you talk about the various control options available (the variosu throttles, plus wifi devices). But this sort of thign is not a deliberate 'failure'
Not remembering to set turnouts back to the main is also mostly along the liens of not knowign how to run trains. Occasionally even a pro railroader makes a mistake in this regard, unfortunately on the real railroads this often leads to loss of life.
Dave, I see no reason for you to accept any of the blame. I get the fact that some members are lone wolves outside the club, but it seems less an issue of educating mrmbers how to operate in a group environment than it does for all members to act in a disciplined manner while operating on the club layout.
You cited several issues in this regard.
~ many of our members simply don't understand how to run a train
~ they will leave their trains running free while they stop to chat
~ the operator was nowhere to be seen
~ they also can't tell which route their train is going to take when going through a turnout, if they bother to look at the turnouts at all.
~ they can't remember to set the mainline turnouts back after they take a siding
I am not trying to be argumentative because I fully support your concerns and frustrations. The only point of my earlier reply was to suggest that the club members acting in the manner that you cited probably need to be disciplined more than they need to be educated. I say this because even a lone wolf, myself included, should be sufficiently educated not to commit any of the five infractions previously cited.