ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless I'm employed in the financial industry and its called a triple net lease, or nnn. It may be the most common lease between a landlord and tenant in America. Usually big partnerships that own strip malls, retail centers, large office buildings, large warehouses etc., where the lease reflects lawyers combing over the fine wording. More mom and pop buildings might be leased on more general terms. A triple net lease (triple-Net or NNN) is a lease agreement on a property where the tenant or lessee agrees to pay all real estate taxes, building insurance, and maintenance (the three "nets") on the property in addition to any normal fees that are expected under the agreement (rent, utilities, etc.). A model railroad club that leases space in an otherwise fairly marketable property is going to have to meet the market terms, and lease on a NNN basis. A more mom and pop landord could be more suitable. But "MIT" fees can be negotiated as part of the monthly rent anyway. In the end, the landlord has to make money so the tenant pays for that stuff one way or the other, whether they are carved out separately or built into the rent. "Most common" might require some definition. I am well aware of such complex leases for the types of properties you mentioned, not sure they are most common by any means. But then again I live and work in rural America........so I could be wrong. I am currently working on selling my rental properties..........it was a great gig for decades, now not so much. Sheldon
Doughless I'm employed in the financial industry and its called a triple net lease, or nnn. It may be the most common lease between a landlord and tenant in America. Usually big partnerships that own strip malls, retail centers, large office buildings, large warehouses etc., where the lease reflects lawyers combing over the fine wording. More mom and pop buildings might be leased on more general terms. A triple net lease (triple-Net or NNN) is a lease agreement on a property where the tenant or lessee agrees to pay all real estate taxes, building insurance, and maintenance (the three "nets") on the property in addition to any normal fees that are expected under the agreement (rent, utilities, etc.). A model railroad club that leases space in an otherwise fairly marketable property is going to have to meet the market terms, and lease on a NNN basis. A more mom and pop landord could be more suitable. But "MIT" fees can be negotiated as part of the monthly rent anyway. In the end, the landlord has to make money so the tenant pays for that stuff one way or the other, whether they are carved out separately or built into the rent.
I'm employed in the financial industry and its called a triple net lease, or nnn. It may be the most common lease between a landlord and tenant in America. Usually big partnerships that own strip malls, retail centers, large office buildings, large warehouses etc., where the lease reflects lawyers combing over the fine wording. More mom and pop buildings might be leased on more general terms.
A triple net lease (triple-Net or NNN) is a lease agreement on a property where the tenant or lessee agrees to pay all real estate taxes, building insurance, and maintenance (the three "nets") on the property in addition to any normal fees that are expected under the agreement (rent, utilities, etc.).
A model railroad club that leases space in an otherwise fairly marketable property is going to have to meet the market terms, and lease on a NNN basis. A more mom and pop landord could be more suitable. But "MIT" fees can be negotiated as part of the monthly rent anyway. In the end, the landlord has to make money so the tenant pays for that stuff one way or the other, whether they are carved out separately or built into the rent.
"Most common" might require some definition. I am well aware of such complex leases for the types of properties you mentioned, not sure they are most common by any means. But then again I live and work in rural America........so I could be wrong.
I am currently working on selling my rental properties..........it was a great gig for decades, now not so much.
Sheldon
Ok. Very common.
The issue I see is that those types of terms are generally negotiated in a "corporate" type of atmosphere. Retail strip malls, outlots, 50 story skyscrapers.
I'd wonder what type of space a model railroad club leases if the landlord is getting that precise in his language. Is the space of the type and location that captures the attention of the big players? There is a greater risk they may eventually want another tenant .
Maybe the landlord is simply careful enough to want things spelled out, in case somebody slips on the ice and he gets sued because it was unclear who was responsible for waking up and spreading the ice melt at 5am.
- Douglas
The big players in commercial real estate leasing have lawyers work out these terms to the nth degree, in order to establish who pays for what. Because if its all combined into one rent payment, inevitably there are squabbles about who is supposed to mow the lawn.
hon30critter ATLANTIC CENTRAL What is a MIT fee? 'Maintenance, Insurance and Taxes' (I believe I have that right). Dave
ATLANTIC CENTRAL What is a MIT fee?
'Maintenance, Insurance and Taxes' (I believe I have that right).
Dave
That's interesting. Here in the US, there is not usually any separate breakdown of such costs.
Property taxes and primary structure insurance are the responsablity of the landlord, and are built into the lease amount.
But the landloards insurance does not cover the tenants possessions, tenants must secure their own "renters insurance".
Maintenance costs are often negotiated on commercial properties, often requiring the tenant to bear all interior renovation and maintenance costs, while the landlord excepts some level of resposiblity for the building "shell".
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat is a MIT fee?
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
What is a MIT fee?
Our lease is up for renewal. The landlord asked for two years at 5% per year. We decided that 5% is a bit steep and we also decided that we want to be guaranteed more than two years in the place given all the work we are putting into the new layout. We agreed upon 4% over five years. Yes, that is higher than the rate of inflation, but the landlord agreed to keep our MIT fees, which are very reasonable, the same for all five years. He is also willing to ignore the fact that while we are paying for 800 sq. ft. the actual space is a bit over 1000 sq. ft.
What this will mean for the members is that the membership fees will have to go up over the five years. Right now we pay $230.00 per year. We anticipate that the fees will have to rise to about $350.00 per year by 2024. I think that is still a real bargain!
A few members will likely object, but the reality is that we as the Executive have a responsibility to ensure that the club will continue to be financially viable for many years to come.
The other reality is that there isn't anything else available in Barrie that we can afford. We looked for years before we found our current location. It suits us very well. I hope we can collectively count our blessings instead of getting our shorts in a knot about an increase in the membership fee.
Cheers!!
hon30critterIf you have to put a second set of ice cubes in your drink then you are drinking way too slow!
Well, it seems I get so enraptured in these forums that I sometimes forget to take a sip
Here's to 'ya, Dave
Thanks Ed,
The signal indication drawings and explanations are very helpful.
I have to say one thing though. If you have to put a second set of ice cubes in your drink then you are drinking way too slow!
gmpullman Seems to me there was an article in MR, maybe a year or so back explaining just such a system.
Seems to me there was an article in MR, maybe a year or so back explaining just such a system.
Yes, I recall such an article. It may have been on Model Railroad Planning? Or maybe regular MR, don’t recall but I’m certain it does exist.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
hon30critterOne of our members suggested a card system where various signal aspects are drawn on cards and the appropriate card is placed beside the track where the operators need to decide whether to stop and wait, or continue through.
Hi Dave,
http://mrv.trains.com/-/media/Files/PDF/Modeling%20projects/2017/02/Papersignaltemplates.pdf
I just put fresh ice in my drink and that helped me remember April, 2017. (Issue # 1000) by Bruce Carpenter, P. 66.
Good Luck, Ed
Hi Randy,
I like the idea of the dunce cap, but given our current situation we might have to get one for every member of the club!
Thanks for your track control suggestions.
One of our members suggested a card system where various signal aspects are drawn on cards and the appropriate card is placed beside the track where the operators need to decide whether to stop and wait, or continue through. I'm not sure I fully understand the details but it seems like a good place to start. He suggested that the system would allow us to figure out exactly how each signal needs to be configured before we spend a bunch of time and money installing real signals.
One good thing I do have to say is that all the members are looking forward to developing some means of layout control (in other words we are all equally embarrassed by the confusion and the cornfield meets that we have experienced so far!).
Well happy birthday. And I think the other guys should have brought donuts for you, since it's your birthday. Timmy's?
OK, I have to laugh at that - 2 guys running trains, on that size layout, and managed to run into one another? I don't even want to know....
Absent actual controls in palce, you could implement track warrants, and a dispatcher could use one of those magnetic boards to track traisn with no electronics involved. Need some small radios, if you don't already have them, and trains cannot proceed past certain points without getting a clearance from the dispatcher. No signals needed. Granted, it's an anachronism if you are modeling an earlier era as this is a fairly modern way of doing things, but it may be a stopgap until you get a signal system built.
ANd some mild demerits - say, ignorign the DS and rnnign where you aren;t supposed to means go sit down for an hour before picking up a throttle again. Actually physically crashing traisn together - you're done for the night. Especially of oen train was supposed to be there and the other wasn't. I know it's all in fun, but whiel I don;t add all sorts of superdetail to my locos and rolling stock, I still don't want someone smashing their loco into mine and damaging things.
Or ease into it - at first, make the offender run the rest of the night with a big DUNCE cap on his head. After an introductory period so everyone can get used to the rules, go with the timeout. Just - don't get carried away and start ordering pee tests. That's carrying prototypical modeling just a little too far.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Great night tonight at the club!
I brought in a pile of donuts because it was my 65th birthday. All we did was sit around, eat donuts and talk while a couple of guys ran trains. Totally relaxing and fun.
We did have a serious discussion about what we need to do to control movements on the layout and how to train people to avoid collisions. About five minutes after that discussion ended the two guys who were running trains had a collision! The only thing we could do was laugh and admit that we have a ways to go before we will be able to operate smoothly.
The good thing is that this evening's events as well as previous running sessions with similar problems have spurred us to develop some sort of dispatching method ASAP. A couple of the more experienced members have given us some very good and very simple methods to experiment with so that we can determine how we want to control the trains.
maxmanSounds just like little kids playing soccer.
Yep! That describes it exactly!!
hon30critterwe had several occurances where all four mainline trains were in the same area of the layout at the same time.
Sounds just like little kids playing soccer.
rrinkerYou will definitely need some sort of control in place before an open house - if they already run into one another, how bad will it get when someone stops watching their moving train and starts talking to a visitor?
We already learned that the hard way. We had a 'Golden Spike' ceremony last year to celebrate the completion of the mainline. We had quite a number of guests, many of whom were highly experienced modellers. Of course we let a couple of guys run trains who didn't or weren't capable of understanding the need to watch their trains so we had several rear end collisions or incidents where five fingers had to be used to prevent them.
The fact that we now have a layout where this is happening is actually a good sign. The club has come a long way in the past 20 months. We haven't had anything to operate on for years. We just have to do some educating and learning, and possibly pass out a few 'brownies'.
Sounds like when I tried to run a full load (12) locoos on my Zephyr, on a single track 8x12 loop. Was like Lucy in the factory trying to keep them all from crashing.
Funny though, the club I belonged to years ago, we had 2 walkaround DC throttles, one for the east main, one for the west main. At open houses we would have 4 or 5 trains on each direction. Without independent control of any sort, it was usually up to soomeone to be a 5 finger brake and hold up a train that was creeping up on the rear of the one ahead. It was a pretty big layout, so it wasn't too crazy, usually could get in 10 or more laps before something got to close to something else. I guess that's a case where not having independent control was better, no one could crank up a throttle and make their train catch up with one ahead.
You will definitely need some sort of control in place before an open house - if they already run into one another, how bad will it get when someone stops watching their moving train and starts talking to a visitor? Back in the old days, they used to give out 'brownies' to people who messed up, too many bad marks and you lost your running privilege for a time. Used to be a frequent mention in the old Bull Session column.
hon30critter Hi Brian No, keep alives were not the issue. In fact they would probably have helped a lot, that is if we were able to add them to the operators' brains and not the locomotives!! There is this thing called 'paying attention' especially to what is down the track ahead of your locomotive. We still have some learning to do! Dave
Hi Brian
No, keep alives were not the issue. In fact they would probably have helped a lot, that is if we were able to add them to the operators' brains and not the locomotives!! There is this thing called 'paying attention' especially to what is down the track ahead of your locomotive. We still have some learning to do!
Thanks for that Dave. I had a GREAT laugh this morning
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
BigDaddySounds like the Peter principle met Murphy's Law
Yes, and add in the Keystone Cops too!
I didn't run anything. I didn't know whether or not it was safe to put something on the tracks!
It's funny how the layout became congested so easily. Without a dispatcher to force people to wait their turns we had several occurances where all four mainline trains were in the same area of the layout at the same time. Of course without any working sidings everybody was restricted to the mainline so congestion was inevitable.
Sounds like the Peter principle met Murphy's Law
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
railandsailIs some of that need for 'five fingered' rescues due to keep alives?
Hi Brian,
The only time a keep alive would interfere is if the loco was running on track so dirty there was no DCC signal. The keep alive does not keep a loco moving if it is receiving commands to stop.
We occasionally have it happen even though we have a fully functional signalling system. Sometimes people just don't pay attention. Since there is usally a dispatcher sitting at the JMRI computer, you usually can't get away with anything, as they know immediately if you occupy the block past the red signal you were supposed to stop at.
railandsail hon30critter The evening was not lacking for 'events'. A couple of trains had to be 'five fingered' to an immediate halt because their operators were neglecting to look down the tracks ahead of their trains. Duh! (Nobody seems to have learned where the Emergency Stop button is on the throttles). Dave Is some of that need for 'five fingered' rescues due to keep alives? What DCC system are you using that has emergency stop??
hon30critter The evening was not lacking for 'events'. A couple of trains had to be 'five fingered' to an immediate halt because their operators were neglecting to look down the tracks ahead of their trains. Duh! (Nobody seems to have learned where the Emergency Stop button is on the throttles). Dave
The evening was not lacking for 'events'. A couple of trains had to be 'five fingered' to an immediate halt because their operators were neglecting to look down the tracks ahead of their trains. Duh! (Nobody seems to have learned where the Emergency Stop button is on the throttles).
Is some of that need for 'five fingered' rescues due to keep alives?
What DCC system are you using that has emergency stop??
Pretty sure all of the dcc system throttles have an emergency stop button. On NCC Powercab, its a big red button in the middle of the throttle. Its probably not used very often and is forgotten about, so I can see where members get into a panic mode and use their hands.
We had a very entertaining running night on Tuesday. Again, we can't call them operating sessions because there aren't enough sidings in place to really do much operating, at least in terms of the layout as a whole. However, Ron had a good time in the main yard and we managed to have four trains running on the mainline all at the same time.
The evening was not lacking for 'events'. A couple of trains had to be 'five fingered' to an immediate halt because their operators were neglecting to look down the tracks ahead of their trains. Duh! (Nobody seems to have learned where the Emergency Stop button is on the throttles). Several trains were run through turnouts which weren't thrown the right way. Duh! One passenger car derailed thanks to said incorrectly thrown switches, and the car fractured into several pieces when it hit the floor! Did I say "Duh"?
The evening further reinforced the fact that we need to have a dispatcher overseeing what is going on. We will get there eventually. (I believe that you have heard me say this before. I'm not sure which emoticon is appropriate - You choose!).
Water Level RouteGood to hear the progress Dave!
Thank you!
One other thing that happened on Tuesday night was that one of our members who spends his winters in Arizona showed up at the club. We asked him what he thought of the progress over the last six months and to our dismay he said things didn't look much different from when he left in the fall! Well, that was a bummer!!
In truth he was right. When you look at the top of the layout things haven't changed much. We made very little progress on track laying for several months because we were waiting for turnouts from Atlas. The mainline was in but the industrial sidings basically sat idle. We had most of the areas planned but no turnouts to build them with.
We did ask the same member to have a look underneath and he was reasonably impressed. In addition to the 60 gazillion miles of wiring that has been installed, we have about 60 Tortoises in and operating and about half of the control panels installed and working, at least in their beta formats. We will make them look pretty once we have the designs finalized.
Good to hear the progress Dave!
Mike
Good progress at the club on Tuesday night.
Dave, our trusty Treasurer (at least he better be!), figured out most of the remaining track for the service area. He had to make a few changes to the original plan but ultimately things worked out well.
Henk, our Secretary and former President, has started to install some foam for the scenery base between the upper and lower tracks on the south side of the peninsula. It looks great even though it's just foam at this point. Henk had previously also installed the subroadbed for part of the center of the peninsula so that is waiting for Homasote and track to be installed.
Richard, our Vice President, made more progress on the industrial area that has become his pet project. As with a lot of the industrial areas, fitting the track in has been a challenge but he is making it work.
Rene and Ron, our intrepid Tortoise installers hooked up a few more of the wee beasties.
As for me, I seemed to spend most of my evening answering questions and offering opinions on the work being done. Whether or not anybody paid any attention to what I was saying is anybody's guess!
I will post more pictures once the industrial sidings have progressed to the point of actually looking like something.
Mini ones are out there Aven makes some.