Okay, success!
I widened the margins a bit and the pages will line up without a gap after the sheets are trimmed.
Trimming the sheets accurately will be the next challenge. Thanks for the suggestions on how to do it. I won't have to worry about that for a while. We are going to use the temporary control panels until we are fully satisfied with the track arrangements. That may be months or years. We already have a list of possible modifications.
That brings up another interesting issue with developing the layout. The layout is already pretty track intensive but that doesn't seem to stop people from suggesting that we add another track here or there. I'm trying my best to prevent people from adding tracks where simple operational methods will address the challenges. The prototypes did not add another track every time they had to do a little manouvering to get at a car!
Don't misunderstand me, some of the suggested changes will add greatly to the operating possibilities. We have decided to operate for a while before we make any changes, which is exactly what I'm sure many of you would have suggested.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
rrinkerTrim up the edges square, removing the margin space, and then the two pieces should line up nicely.
Hi Randy,
I was hoping that would be the case, but it isn't. If the margins are cut off, the pages do not line up properly. If the margins are left in place, everything lines up nicely but there is a gap in the printing as you can see.
I will play with the margin settings. Right now they are set to '0'. That may be the problem because of the limitations of the printer. I'm thinking that if I add in a small margin then the printing might line up with the margins cut off. I'll play with it tonight and let you know.
Thanks,
rrinkera straightedge and knife
Mike
You probably can't eliminate the gap - on the printer. Very few printers can print right to the edge, there's a minimal margin needed for the paper transport to grab the paper. But you can remove it after the fact - I'd use a paper cutter if you cna find one, a straightedge and knife would be a poor second choice. Trim up the edges square, removing the margin space, and then the two pieces should line up nicely. It won't be completely invisible, for that you'd have to have the panels printed at a shop or office supply place where they can print it on paper large enough that one piece does it.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
More progress at the club on Tuesday night!
We have started to install the scenery base in earnest! We actually now have a couple of layers of 2 1/2" foam in place in the peninsula, and what is even better is we now have a hole in the foam that will become a quarry!
Sorry, I didn't have my camera with me. My hands were full because I delivered two more control panels to the club and I had my briefcase with me as well. Besides, the quarry hole is still pretty crude right now so please give us some time to develop the scene a bit better.
Speaking of the control panels, all of the panels that I have built so far are 'draft versions'. I'm glad I didn't spend the time making them fancy on the first try because almost all of them will require some modifications before we make the final panels. Making the panels has kind of been like shooting at a moving target. In several cases the track arrangements have been modified slightly without me being informed of the changes. That's not a problem at all. Making changes is a natural part of installing track, especially in tight spaces. When the final 'deluxe' versions of the control panels are produced they will hopefully match the track patterns properly.
I'm looking forward to making the final control panels. I have some really nice poplar 1 1/2" square stock that I will mold with my router and radial arm saw to make the frames. We were talking on Tuesday night about what colour to use for the background. I love the look of control panels with a black background but I'm leaning towards a white background with black track. The reason is that I can easily print the diagrams in those colours and they look super crisp and clean. I can use 110 lb. stock instead of regular printer paper so there will be no bleed through of the colour of the masonite back panel. The temporary panels have been built so that the toggle switches and LEDs can be easily removed without having to unsolder any connections. It will be easy to transfer them to the new panels. The only soldering will be to correct the minor changes in the control panel arrangements.
Here is an example of one of the temporary panels:
I have to figure out how to eliminate the gap in the printing but that's just a matter of adjusting the printer controls.
Take care everyone!!
Hi folks,
I got another control panel completed tonight. This one was a tiny bit more complicated in that two of the toggle switches have duplicates on the control panel on the other side of the peninsula. The double set of toggles control access to a passing siding that is positioned so that the operators can only see one end of it at a time. I can see this making things complicated if someone doesn't ask for permission to throw the turnout on the other side of the peninsula before it is clear.
One of the other minor complications is that we need to drive four LEDs for each turnout, two on each side of the peninsula. We have been driving the switch position LEDs through the tortoise motor feeds. That works fine for two LEDs which is all we have needed so far, but I am told that when there are four LEDs involved, the tortoise will move very slowly. If the problem is serious enough I guess we can simply drive two of the LEDs off of one of the tortoise internal switches (the other is being used to control frog polarity). I'd rather not do that however. I would like to have the tortoise switch available for signals.
I'm going to start a thread in the Electronics/DCC forum to get some clarification. Edit, I think I've figured out at least part of the solution. We are using redundant LEDs in that we have two LEDs for each mainline turnout. One is on the main. The other is on the diverging route (where else would it be?). If the main is clear the LED is green, and the LED on the diverging track is red (suprise!!) All we need to do is eliminate the diverging route LED. That gives us enough power to install another LED elsewhere without slowing the tortoise down. If our members can't figure out that if the main is clear then the diverging route isn't and vise versa, then we are all in trouble!!
Cheers!!
Oops, another goof up. Actually, I was told that it was CN but my wee brain got it backwards when I was typing. I corrected the post.
And thanks for the article on Sir Henry Thornton, Wayne. Very interesting! Amazing talent!!
rrebell,
Thanks for correcting the story. I was getting it third hand from one of the other club members, and we all know how that works.
None the less, it is an interesting piece of Canadian history, somewhat in contrast to our usual passive mannerisms.
rrebell...We also honoured a bit of history. One of the areas will be called "Thornton", named after the business magnet who gathered several dozens of tiny local railways together to form Canadian Pacific.....
Sir Henry Thornton, an American, was responsible for the formation of the CNR, not the CPR. There's a very informative thread on his many achievements (most of them formerly unbeknowst to me) to be found in this thread in the Classic Trains Forum. An absolutely amazing individual.
Wayne
rrebellFarmers were armed but union was not.
So it was a pitched(fork) battle?
hon30critter Thanks Randy, I have seen articles on that sort of system, and obviously the tab systems work. However, personally I think that having the coloured tags or pins on the cars is totally distracting. I don't want to watch coloured tags go around the layout. I want to watch train cars. That's just me. I will present the option to the Operating Committee, but I think we have already decided how to proceed. We had a very good impromptu conversation on Tuesday night with regards to operating options. The members seemed to all come to the same decision without much disagreement (contrary to my fears). We decided to start with a simple card system without any frills. JMRI can wait, as can any other options, until we have learned how to use the cards. Down the road we can explore other options. There are still some details to work out as to what card design to use and who will do the work, but we have moved forward significantly. We were also able to 'complete the map' more or less by deciding on place names for all the communities and industrial areas, as well as various spurs and junctions. Previously we had been referring to them simply as "Area #...". In most cases the names we chose pretty much reflect actual locations in central and northern Ontario. Some are a bit whimsical like "The Cowpath" which we used to identify one of the reverse loops, but there is an actual section of track located close to Hamilton, Ontario which officially bears that name. We also honoured a bit of history. One of the areas will be called "Thornton", named after the business magnet who gathered several dozens of tiny local railways together to form Canadian Pacific. Another spot will be called Reesors Crossing. That was the location where several lumber mill workers were killed and injured by some of the local farmers in 1964 because of totally unsubstantiated rumours that a huge pile of lumber that was waiting to be transported to the mill was about to be burned. The lumber had been gathered by the farmers over the winter. Whomever spread the rumours told both sides that the other was about to torch the pile out of spite. Neither side had any intention of doing so, but the potential loss got people pretty worked up. Word got around and both sides showed up at Reesors Crossing to protect the lumber pile. Unfortunately the farmers showed up with their shotguns loaded. Things errupted before anyone could address the issue. The incident is rarely mentioned in history books. We also got all the spurs numbered, although there may be some revisions to the system we chose. Cheers!! Dave
Thanks Randy,
I have seen articles on that sort of system, and obviously the tab systems work. However, personally I think that having the coloured tags or pins on the cars is totally distracting. I don't want to watch coloured tags go around the layout. I want to watch train cars. That's just me. I will present the option to the Operating Committee, but I think we have already decided how to proceed.
We had a very good impromptu conversation on Tuesday night with regards to operating options. The members seemed to all come to the same decision without much disagreement (contrary to my fears). We decided to start with a simple card system without any frills. JMRI can wait, as can any other options, until we have learned how to use the cards. Down the road we can explore other options.
There are still some details to work out as to what card design to use and who will do the work, but we have moved forward significantly.
We were also able to 'complete the map' more or less by deciding on place names for all the communities and industrial areas, as well as various spurs and junctions. Previously we had been referring to them simply as "Area #...". In most cases the names we chose pretty much reflect actual locations in central and northern Ontario. Some are a bit whimsical like "The Cowpath" which we used to identify one of the reverse loops, but there is an actual section of track located close to Hamilton, Ontario which officially bears that name.
We also honoured a bit of history. One of the areas will be called "Thornton", named after the business magnet who gathered several dozens of tiny local railways together to form Canadian Pacific.
Another spot will be called Reesors Crossing. That was the location where several lumber mill workers were killed and injured by some of the local farmers in 1964 because of totally unsubstantiated rumours that a huge pile of lumber that was waiting to be transported to the mill was about to be burned. The lumber had been gathered by the farmers over the winter. Whomever spread the rumours told both sides that the other was about to torch the pile out of spite. Neither side had any intention of doing so, but the potential loss got people pretty worked up. Word got around and both sides showed up at Reesors Crossing to protect the lumber pile. Unfortunately the farmers showed up with their shotguns loaded. Things errupted before anyone could address the issue. The incident is rarely mentioned in history books.
We also got all the spurs numbered, although there may be some revisions to the system we chose.
We also honoured a bit of history. One of the areas will be called "Thornton", named after the business magnet who gathered several dozens of tiny local railways together to form Canadian Pacific National (thanks Wayne).
There are a whole bunch of operating layouts in Western PA that mostly use tab on car. Here's a thread with a decent explanation of how they do it from the late Bob Hartle (cmrproducts on the forum, he was one of the organizers and active members of the rotating operating group in that area).
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/38241.aspx
Hi guys!
I've been on vacation so please pardon the dearth of posts. Had a great time.
The club is going headstrong into getting an operations system set up! We asked for volunteers to sit on the Operations Committee and half the club signed up! That's a first! These guys really want to do some serious train running.
However, now we are faced with the problem of having too many chefs in the kitchen. Design by committee often does not lead to the best possible outcome, and the more members in the committee the worse things get and the longer it will take to make decisions. To be fair, some of the members have very detailed knowledge of how a railroad works because they actually worked on them in the real world, and others have operated enough on their own and other layouts to have a good understanding as well.
To avoid death by committee, we have decided to change the plan a bit. We will begin by having a couple of the members of the Executive Committee do some research ourselves. We have a few offers of assistance from local modellers and clubs. The tricky bit is that the people who have offered outside assistance do not want to be innundated by having a dozen people show up on their doorsteps.
Once we have some suggestions prepared we will present them to the Operating Committee for their consideration. We will allow for a couple of weeks of cogitation, and then we will ask the members of the Operating Committee to come back to us to present their operating suggestions on an individual basis. They may or may not base their suggestions on what the Executive Committee has presented.
Hopefully that will give us a broad range of choices, from which the Executive will choose or design an initial operating scheme. I say 'initial' because there will be nothing preventing us from trying other systems down the road, but we need to establish and work with a single method to start.
I invite you to suggest systems as well, as some have already done.
Sorry for blathering on!
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn my opinion, the best layouts are those that are planned in advance for the types of operation the owner desires. In my case, that is all types - switching, mainline CTC/timetable, and simple display loops.
That's what I tried to do with the club layout, despite my lack of experience with model railroading. I will say that John Armstrong's 'Track Planning For Realistic Operations' was a huge help in figuring out how to do things.
Bigjim7I can see where using cards to tell what trains to get and move could be fun on a club layout. For lone wolfs it seems it would be weird to do. Do they make Trains cards or do you make those yourself. Thanks
Operations are not just about switching cars. My operating plan, on my old layout and the new one I am planning, also involves the "dance" of running multiple mainline trains in accordance with a timetable.
In my opinion, the best layouts are those that are planned in advance for the types of operation the owner desires. In my case, that is all types - switching, mainline CTC/timetable, and simple display loops.
I can run with a crew or by myself, switching the industries or keeping the passenger schedule.
Sheldon
Bigjim7For lone wolfs it seems it would be weird to do.
Actually, I believe that lots of 'lone wolves' operate by themselves. One of our new members has been a 'lone wolf' for a long time and he rarely runs trains just to watch them go around in circles. He loves to set up operating sessions for himself, and he is eager to join our Operations Committee so that he can share his experience.
rrinker On the staging - I'm assumign it is as long (down the page) as you can possibly fit and still leave the tail for engine escape?
Yes, we are pretty much maxed out for space because the staging yard is just inside the entrance to the clubhouse. We had to taper the end in order to allow us to get the portable layout modules out of the room.
The limited number of tracks has made us decide to not allow trains to be left parked in the yard between sessions. Either they are going on to the layout as soon as the train is made up, or they are being disassembled and put into their storage boxes. There are ample shelves below the yard to store trains.
We ran into a problem with our main yard because somebody decided to put almost every piece of rolling stock that the club owned on the rails in the yard. They filled the whole yard which made it pretty much useless. We have said that trains will not be parked in the main yard either unless they are part of a current operating session.
Bigjim7What does a operating system add.
Not too long ago I was asking myself the same question. I thought I would be happy just running different trains around. Well, now that I have had the chance to do that, I find that I am a bit bored!
An operating system makes running trains a lot more prototypical. Real railroads pick up cars in various places and drop them off in other places. They never just take a cut of cars and run around in circles with them.
One of the simpler operating systems involves giving each operator a few cards that represent individual pieces of rolling stock. The cards tell you where to pick up each car and where to drop each car off. If you are given 10 cards with 10 different drop off locations you have to first find those cars (if the train hasn't already been made up for you) and then get each car to its destination. Things can get a bit more complicated if, for example, the first car that you need to drop is in the middle of your train. That is easy to do if you can back into the siding, but if the siding is facing the locomotive then you have some work to do. Then, you often have to pick up empties from the sidings which have to be delivered to yet another destination. Things can get further complicated when there are several operators all trying to do the same thing, especially if there is only a single track mainline.
Operations can be enhanced using a computer with JMRI on it. The program will generate a different set of movements for each session. Some opertions are so complex that a Dispatcher is required to control the main line traffic, and a Yard Master may be required as well. We don't plan on getting that complicated, at least not for a while.
That is a very rudimentary (and likely flawed) explanation from someone who is just starting to learn how to operate.
On the staging - I'm assumign it is as long (down the page) as you can possibly fit and still leave the tail for engine escape? Because if you ahev more length, I'd add more tracks. Somethign that tends to work for us is (granted, there is a major difference because this is a portable layout, so priority is given to those who help with the setup and teardown) that each person gets a track to put their train on. We do have more peopel wanting to run trains than there are staging tracks, so they are used up on a first come first serve basis with, as noted, priority to those who help set up and tear down the layout at each venue. On a longer display, many peopel aren't there every day of the week so there are plenty of opportunities for anyone that wants to run to be able to do so.
I presume some similar things will shake out - unless you are the magic club where every member does the same era, I suspect there will peopel who want to do a 1920's op session, and those that want a 19040's session, and some who want a 1980's session, etc. So you may end up having enough staging as is, as long as people remove say their modern equipment for the 1920 guys' session, and the 1920's guys remove their stuff when it's the modern guys' turn for their op session.
Bigjim7I am interested in how you go about using a operating system. How it works and such. I mostly go to my layout and just pick a engine and go pick up say some tank cars at the Ethanol plant or go take some coal cars to the coal mine area. Run some around the layout. What does a operating system add. Thanks
But, I'm a lone wolf, just like you. I sit around upstairs and think, hey, I will head downstairs to the layout and hook up a pair of GP7s to a string of box cars and head out onto the inner mainline for awhile. And, while I am at it, I will hook up one of my ABBA consists to a string of passenger cars and run them in the opposite direction on the outer mainline. Then, I will return everything back to where I found it. That is an operating session.
Other times, I will get more serious and disciplined and simulate all of the movements to bring a string of passenger cars to the downtown train station for passenger loading. That requires a yard switcher to go the coach yard and push the string of passenger cars down to a stub end track at the passenger station, followed by a locomotive consist backing up from the engine servicing facility to the station to connect to the passenger car consist. The switcher returns to the coach yard with an empty string of passenger cars for cleaning and servicing, while that passenger train travels to distant points and back. That's another operating session.
And on and on and on.
Rich
Alton Junction
The short answer, you just develop a system for writing down in advance those train movements. In a group setting operators are given instructions (train orders) and generally have to report to someone (dispatcher or yard master).
As for the details, there are lots of variations and methods....
Thanks Rich!
I appreciate your comments! Yes, the wye turned out quite well. Please don't tell anybody that it wasn't planned that way in the original track plan. It just sort of fell in our laps!
That actually brings up an aspect of how a club functions, or rather, doesn't function when egos are involved. When we first acquired the new clubhouse one of our Executive members layed out the area which the layout could occupy and was adamant that it wouldn't be allowed to exceed his boundaries. Bull feathers!! If we had followed his dictates the layout would be half the size that it is and the club would be half full of couches! Fortunately the new Executive (of which he is no longer a member) has persevered. We didn't dismiss his concerns outright. We just kind of ignored them. Now we have way more layout than he would have permitted, and we still have a large lounge area, and everyone is happy, even him!
Just another juicy tidbit about how our club works!!
Dave, I am living vicariously as I follow progress on your club layout. I operate as a lone wolf in my basement, extremely limited operations on my layout, and it shall remain that way. But, it is a whole lot of fun imagining being a member of your club. Keep up the good work. By the way, I love that wye concept alongside the turntable.
We held an Executive Committee meeting on Monday night and one of the decisions we made was to get into operating as soon as we reasonably can. It will be a bit of a challenge because, as I have said before, the club hasn't had a layout that was conducive to operating for years. Most members are used to just going around in circles.
We have a couple of resources that we will take advantage of. One is the Nottawasaga club in Collingwood, and the other is a private individual who conducts frequent and well organized operation sessions at his home layout. Both have offered assistance in getting our system set up.
We are looking at starting with a simple card system, but if anyone has any other suggestions, please speak up.
The reason that we need to develop an operating method ASAP is that we have made a huge amount of progress in the last couple of months. We have managed to construct a total of six operating areas with the track being almost complete in most of them. The track that remains to be laid will only take a few hours. If we don't have an operating system in place soon, we will be bored silly just running around in circles. In fact, I think that is already starting to happen. I know I'm already there!
One of the areas that is coming together very quickly is our staging yard. We have designed a yard that is away from the main layout which will provide a place for people to put their rolling stock on the rails, but it can also be used as a regular yard once everyones' trains are on the tracks. There is storage underneath so people have a place to put their boxes after they take their cars out of them.
Engines can escape from their trains where the trains run into the yard locomotive first, and there is a wye so engines can be reversed to pull the trains out with the engines pointing in the right direction. There is even a caboose track! The yard tracks are about nine feet long on average so there is plenty of room to build a train. This is roughly what it looks like. The lift out is necessary to allow access to the electrical panel. The yard tapers towards the end because it is close to the entry door to the club. Dimensions might not be accurate:
We also addressed some specifics about how to construct our scenery in the middle of the rather wide peninsula. We all had some fuzzy pictures in our minds about what we wanted things to look like, but now we know how to actually go about building the hills and valleys. The scenery has to be removable so it can be worked on. The reach in distances are far too long for the scenery to be built in place. We even bought some 2" blue foam to get started with.
TAFN!
rrinkerTwo ways I've seen it done on such types of ceilings, either junction boxes are anchored to the ceiling and then the light fixtures are hung down on conduit, or there are anchors driven into the concrete and the light fixtures hang on chains.
The existing lights are mounted directly on the ceiling. I'm not sure how they will do the new ones.
Speaking of new lights, the landlord has agreed to replace all 12 of the existing florescent fixtures with LED units at his cost, plus he will go half way on the additional 5 lights that we need to get better illumination along the north and east walls, and over the work table. Nice!!
Two ways I've seen it done on such types of ceilings, either junction boxes are anchored to the ceiling and then the light fixtures are hung down on conduit, or there are anchors driven into the concrete and the light fixtures hang on chains.
hon30critter rrebell Give us a picture of the ceiling, we might have better suggestions Hi rrebell, I haven't taken any shots of the ceiling directly but these should give you an idea: The surface is quite rough. The ceiling is 14" thick plus the beams, or so we are told. There are quite a few more pipes in the areas not shown. If you wish, I can get some more detailed pics. Dave
rrebell Give us a picture of the ceiling, we might have better suggestions
Hi rrebell,
I haven't taken any shots of the ceiling directly but these should give you an idea:
The surface is quite rough. The ceiling is 14" thick plus the beams, or so we are told. There are quite a few more pipes in the areas not shown. If you wish, I can get some more detailed pics.