I can't quickly find the same ones I have on the HD site to link in, but I'm pretty sure the ones I have are Klein side cutters. They come is several sizes. I know I don;t have the midget ones, but mine may be the 8" instead of 9" model. They are not too wide to fit close to the throwbar of a code 83 HO turnout. They are definitely hardened. I used the back side of them to burnish the rail and never had to clean my track after that (like the whole gleam thing, but minus the polish)
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrebellThere is a type of plier with the blade on the end for heavy duty flush cutting called end cut pliers (in the trades they use it for cutting off the ends of nails), they make smaller versions too.
Hi rrebell,
In a previous thread the end cut pliers were suggested but someone pointed out that because the width of the blades on the normal sized pliers is wider than the space between the rails, the pliers can't reach in far enough to make a flush cut. You can get them in on an angle but the result is exactly the same as using standard wire cutters. I have a set of narrower end cut pliers but mine aren't hardened enough to cut the music wire without damaging the jaws. Hardened narrow blade end cut pliers are probably expensive.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
There is a type of plier with the blade on the end for heavy duty flush cutting called end cut pliers (in the trades they use it for cutting off the ends of nails), they make smaller versions too.
A cutoff wheel in a Dremel also works to trim the excess wire, but eye ptoection or not, the idea of one of those wheels shattering at high speed worries me more than the side cutters launching the cut piece. They shouldn't break if you don't exert side pressure on the wheel, but also the wire does tend to get a bit, shall we say 'warm' while being cut that way.
I actually use servos not Tortoises but the mechanical linkage is the same. The servo mounts I used last time came with some double sided tape that was much thinner than Velcro pads, which were good enough to hold things until the screws were added, and there wasn;t much give. I just center them - that extends the most wire - before cutting off the excess, at that point, when the points are thrown to either side the wire is below the level of the throwbar and more or less just reaches level at the middle of the throw.
railandsailwhen I tried to cut off the switch control 'rod/wire' with normal side cutters it would not cut so readily?
As Randy says, you need to invest in a pair of heavy duty wire cutters. With the right tool the heavier wires cut quite nicely. Also, as Randy says, hold the excess wire tight with pliers. If you use your fingers you can easily drive the wire right into yourself.
What can be tricky is getting the throw wire cut off flush with the top of the throw bar. It's hard to get the blades of the wire cutter in far enough to cut the wire off at the right level. We are using Velcro to initially position the Tortoises. The Velcro has a bit of 'give' in it. When we want to clip the throw wires off we push the Tortoise up slightly before we cut the wire. When we release the pressure the Tortoise will drop back down a tiny bit with the result that the throw wire ends up flush with the throw bar. You may have to practise a couple of times.
Once the Tortoises are working properly we use screws to secure them because the Velcro tends to come apart as the Tortoises are used. The screws do not need to be super tight.
Thanks Randy, very informative.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
ANy heavier wire was supplied externally - ie, if you bought the Tortoise used, it probably has a thicker wire. The stick wire is fairly thin, but it works fine through standard types of construction (plywood with cork or homasote) and easily moved points like Atlas. For Peco without the springs being removed, or for a longer wire (thicker roadbed - like using 2" foam and then cork), the wire will bend and may not actually push the points over. So most people buy thicker wire at the hobby shop and use that. Piano wire is hardened steel, so you good cutters or a cutoff wheel to cut it - do NOT use rail nippers, you will ruin them very quickly. I have a pair of heavy duty side cutters, Klein I think, from the electricla area of one of the big box stores, they make quick work of the wire. Hold on to the free end when cutting, especially if all that's left is a rather short piece - it WILL shoot out like a bullet. Eye protection recommended, even so.
You can bend this stuff to form whatever sort of linkage you need, like mounting a Tortoise on its side, and then bending the end upward at 90 degrees to go up through the roadbed to the throwbar. Works just fine. You need pliers to get a bend right where you want it, usually.
It comes in all sizes. I think the included wire with the Tortoise is about .029. The hole in the arm and fulcrum can handle up to about a .037 without drilling it out, and that should be more than enough for HO. Some people go .041, I think that is way too big, there is no need for wire that thick. My last layout had TWO layers of 2" foam plus cork plus 1/4" plywood on the bottom and .035 was more than strong enough to put a solid spring tension on the points. Next one will be more conventional 3/4" plywood plus homasote roadbed, I may go .032 when I run out of what I have.
Question Dave,I was installing my first Tortoise yesterday, and when I tried to cut off the switch control 'rod/wire' with normal side cutters it would not cut so readily? Are these rod/wires really that tough?
I have a good number of these Tortoise units, and it appears there are at least 2 types,...ones with a heavier rod/wire than the others?Can these rod/wires be bent,...perhaps as much as 90 degrees?
hon30critterThe reason that we wanted eliminate the rules is because we have had a number of potential new members approach the club recently but not one of them has actually signed on. Maybe there is a message there.
Mike
On a more positive note, I posted this in my thread about using my NCE Power Cab at the club but I meant to post it here:
"I should mention that we actually figured some stuff out for ourselves on Tuesday night!
We wanted to set up some situations where there would be two toggle switches controlling one Tortoise. Our resident electronics expert figured it out all on his own so I don't have to bore you with a dumb question. It's probably right on the Tortoise instructions anyhow, but we didn't have a copy at the club.
We also wanted to figure out how to get several LEDs on different control panels to show the position for a single Tortoise. After much cogitation it dawned on us that instead of putting a bunch of LEDs in series with the Tortoise motors (as we had been doing where there were only two LEDs involved) and thereby killing most of the power to the Tortoise motors because of the number of LEDs in series, we could just use the auxiliary contacts in the Tortoises themselves. Duh!!
There is hope for us after all!
Don't worry though. I'm sure there will be plenty more dumb questions to keep you entertained!
Dave"
I have to confess that I came home from the club on Tuesday night a bit disappointed for a couple of reasons.
First, we had our monthly Business Meeting and a couple of dead horses got beaten to a pulp. The Executive Committee has just made some decisions regarding removing any perceived barriers to joining the club but one member decided that we needed to review every rule that had ever been in place regarding approving new members. After 20 minutes of trying to explain why we wanted to eliminate the rules, said member still insisted on discussing the old rules. The reason that we wanted eliminate the rules is because we have had a number of potential new members approach the club recently but not one of them has actually signed on. Maybe there is a message there.
After the meeting everyone went to work on various areas of the layout. Two members were working on a spur which will house a brewery. There is limited space for the scene and the track plan has been adjusted several times to make everything fit. They decided to ignore the track plan. What they did was put the first turnout in place, decided that it looked good, and then drilled the holes for the Tortoise wire and the frog lead. Then they went on to place a couple more turnouts based on what they thought 'looked good'. I decided to poke my head in to see how they were doing. What was immediately obvious was that the brewery building itself would be right at the edge of the layout if they continued in the direction they were going. My design had allowed for a space of about 8" between the fascia and the structure. I had to tell them to stop doing what they were doing.
The Layout Committee went to great lengths to define how the track positioning would be established when doing the sidings. Nothing was to be permanently installed until all the track and turnouts had been fitted into place and spiked down temporarily. I had to choose my words very carefully! I apologized for shutting them down and for now I have left it at that. I will have to make sure I am there to remind them of the proper methods when they start back in next week. These guys have far more modelling experience than I have. Maybe that's the problem.
Pardon me for venting! This what I signed on for, I guess.
Cheers!! I'm going to have another drink! Join me.
railandsailWhere do I find some good info on the 'shaper sheets' you speak of?
Hi Brian,
I asked the same question not too long ago but I didn't get a lot of detailed answers. I finally got my hands on a Shaper Sheet tonight, and now I have more questions than answers.
The Shaper Sheet is definitely light weight, but by itself it does not have a lot of strength. The foil is much thicker than household aluminum foil and a bit softer than that used in disposable aluminum baking pans. It doesn't have the ribbing which adds strength to the pans but if it is crumpled a bit and then partly straightened out it is much stiffer, and that is how it is intended to be used. However, even with the crumpling effect if it were to be used alone any significant pressure on an unsupported area would deflect the surface. To be fair, Woodland Scenics does recommend using their Shaper Sheet Plaster over top to stiffen the surface. I was hoping to be able to avoid that to keep the weight down. As I said, we will do an experimental section with ribs approx. every three inches to support it to see what it is like.
As far as mounting trees, I don't see a problem. The Shaper Sheet is easy to poke a hole in and the trees can be glued in place and then propped up until the glue is dry, just like installing them in hardshell scenery. In fact the flexibility of the Shaper Sheets might be an advantage because if the tree is crooked after the glue dries the sheet will bend easily to allow the tree to be straightened up.
For now, the jury is still out. I want to see it glued in place on the foam ribs before I can decide whether or not it is just a glorified screen and plaster cloth substitute. I am still attracted to the appearance, the speed of installation and the limited mess, so it will have to be pretty flimsy before I reject it. Of course, I'm not the only person making the decision so even if I favour it that may not be the way we go.
railandsail Hi rrebell & dave, Where do I find some good info on the 'shaper sheets' you speak of? Is the foam you are talking of the beaded white styrofoam? Isn't that messy to work with,...lots of those little beads blowing around?
Hi rrebell & dave,
Where do I find some good info on the 'shaper sheets' you speak of?
Is the foam you are talking of the beaded white styrofoam? Isn't that messy to work with,...lots of those little beads blowing around?
rrebellShaper sheets are expencive, $11.99 vs plaster cloth at $1.47 for same area covered.
We will use plaster cloth for areas that will be permanent and can be reached easily. The area that we are proposing the Shaper Sheets for is either out of reach or very difficult to reach. We want to be able to lift the scenery out in two or three sections so we can work on it easily. Using plaster cloth in that area would add significantly to the weight.
Some members have argued that making parts of the scenery removable will subject them to damage. Perhaps so, but a number of us feel that we can do a much better job on the scenery if we are not having to reach long distances or work from stools, ladders or access hatches. Once the scenes are done there should be very little reason to remove the sections again.
One advantage we have is that the portable layout sits on three tables roughly 30" x 72" ea. When the portable layout is not set up those tables will make perfect workbenches for doing the scenery for the permanent layout.
Shaper sheets are expencive, $11.99 vs plaster cloth at $1.47 for same area covered. Foam should be free, just go to most any buisness. It is not that messy for foam or plaster cloth if handled right. Your money, just thought I would help. I did a 30'x15' giant dogbone and covered most of it for around $60 including hills (some big).
Progress continues on the layout. Three of the industrial areas are now in full construction mode thanks to finally getting our hands on some turnouts. The ideas for two other areas are being fleshed out although nothing is set in stone just yet. We are making use of the suggestions that various forum members made several months ago about what industries work together to create operating opportunities.
We revised our estimates for the basic scenery form costs for the center of the peninsula. Fortunately the estimates have been cut by between 1/3 and 1/2. The difference is primarily a result of deciding to not build the central hills/mountains nearly as tall as we had originally thought we would. We are modelling Ontario, Canada, not the Rocky Mountains in BC. Our original concepts resulted in slopes that are just too steep for our area.
We have still not decided whether to use 'solid' foam for the base structure or foam ribs with Shaper Sheet. The solid foam costs are about half what they were originally estimated to be. The Shaper Sheet costs came down by a little more than 1/3rd because while the amount of foam required was reduced significantly, the number of Shaper Sheets didn't change that much. I still favour the Shaper Sheets. Less mess and much faster. The cost difference is still about $100.00 more for the Shaper Sheet method.
We are having a little discussion amongst the members about which of the model railroading shows in central Ontario is bigger! The Toronto Train Show (actually now held in Brampton) has always boasted that it is the biggest train show in central Ontario. Well, that might be true in terms of square footage, but our show in Barrie now draws way more people! Don't worry, there won't be any fisticuffs. We support each other's operations. We are not about to get into a 'signing your name in yellow in the snow' contest! Besides, I could barely manage my initials!!
Cheers everybody!
hon30critter rrebell Sorry you are doing poorly. Did you injure yourself, if not you may be sleeping on too soft a surface. When I was young I hurt myself and thought I would never get better after years. Went to finish up my schooling away from home and had no money so sleep on a hardwood floor, fixed my back. I have had back problems for many years. I got an undiagnosed infection in my spine sometime in the early 2000s. It caused back pain but nothing serious. The pain was blamed on arthritis. One morning in 2008 I went to get out of bed and started screaming in pain. The infection had partially destroyed two lower vertebrae and done a lot of nerve damage and things finally let loose. My spine was fused to repair the damage and they told me at the time that it would probably last about 10 years before I started to have problems. Guess what, its been 10 years. I have attempted physio a couple of times but it just makes the situation much worse. Lying on a hard surface is very painful, but thanks for the suggestion. I have avoided using strong pain killers but that may not be an option any more. I'm going to start pricing wheelchairs. Sorry for whining! Dave
rrebell Sorry you are doing poorly. Did you injure yourself, if not you may be sleeping on too soft a surface. When I was young I hurt myself and thought I would never get better after years. Went to finish up my schooling away from home and had no money so sleep on a hardwood floor, fixed my back.
I have had back problems for many years. I got an undiagnosed infection in my spine sometime in the early 2000s. It caused back pain but nothing serious. The pain was blamed on arthritis. One morning in 2008 I went to get out of bed and started screaming in pain. The infection had partially destroyed two lower vertebrae and done a lot of nerve damage and things finally let loose.
My spine was fused to repair the damage and they told me at the time that it would probably last about 10 years before I started to have problems. Guess what, its been 10 years.
I have attempted physio a couple of times but it just makes the situation much worse. Lying on a hard surface is very painful, but thanks for the suggestion. I have avoided using strong pain killers but that may not be an option any more. I'm going to start pricing wheelchairs.
Sorry for whining!
rrebellSorry you are doing poorly. Did you injure yourself, if not you may be sleeping on too soft a surface. When I was young I hurt myself and thought I would never get better after years. Went to finish up my schooling away from home and had no money so sleep on a hardwood floor, fixed my back.
Sorry you are doing poorly. Did you injure yourself, if not you may be sleeping on too soft a surface. When I was young I hurt myself and thought I would never get better after years. Went to finish up my schooling away from home and had no money so sleep on a hardwood floor, fixed my back.
The club has its portable layout in Lindsay, Ontario this weekend at the Lindsay and District Model Railroaders Show and Sale. I took the trailer there on Saturday morning but by the time the layout was set up I could barely walk. My back has been miserable recently. So, regretably, I decided to come home instead of trying to push things further. I will go back on Sunday around noon and hopefully will be able to get through to the end of the show. I just spent a bunch on Thomas with sound and I did it so we could entertain the kids at the shows.
I had to rent an electric scooter to get around at our show and sale in February. I think i'm going to have to start pricing wheel chairs.
hon30critterI have decided to install the jumpers between the point rails and the closure rails on the tops of the turnouts instead of adding them underneath the turnouts as I have done in the past. Adding them underneath required that the cork roadbed had to have some pieces removed so that the jumpers didn't get trapped between the ties and the roadbed.
Well that didn't go far. After having a close look at what was involved in putting the jumpers on the top of the turnouts I chickened out and did it the old way with the jumpers underneath the turnout. IMHO it was much easier, and one of the club's track layers said that having to cut slots in the roadbed to make space for the jumpers isn't such a big deal as I had thought it was.
Some of the Atlas turnouts have arrived and I am busy adding feeders to the frogs and jumpers between the stock and closure rails, and the closure rails and the point rails. I have decided to install the jumpers between the point rails and the closure rails on the tops of the turnouts instead of adding them underneath the turnouts as I have done in the past. Adding them underneath required that the cork roadbed had to have some pieces removed so that the jumpers didn't get trapped between the ties and the roadbed. That was a PITA. Putting them on top of the turnouts makes them visable but they aren't obvious so who cares?
I'll post some pictures soon.
Cheers!!
One of the joys of being involved with the building of the club's layout is that I get to do almost all of the purchasing. Tonight I got to order 23 turnouts from MB Klein - whoopee!!!
We normally order from Cedar Creek Hobbies in Kingsville, Ontario (formerly Action Hobbies) but thanks to Atlas's supply problems we have been waiting for months to get enough turnouts so that we can get on with laying the track in the sidings. Cedar Creek could have purchased the turnouts from Walthers but our net cost would have been about $4.00 higher per turnout when compared to the sale prices at MB Klein.
The bottom line is that we will be able to stop twiddling our thumbs and finally get on with laying some more track.
We had a running night at the club on Tuesday. We can't operate much yet because there are only a couple of passing sidings that we can use. The industrial sidings have yet to be installed so that's why I call them 'running' nights.
This was only the third time that we have had multiple operators on the layout at the same time, and it proved that we will have to use some form of dispatcher control to coordinate the train movements. (Big surprise eh!?!). We realized that our inexperienced operators are happily staring at their locomotives and trains as they run down the track but they are not looking ahead to see what else is going on. Predictably, we had several near collisions.
Another thing that we realized is that we have to enforce some rules around turnout control, mainly that if you position a turnout so that you can get off the main, you have to return the turnout back to the through position after you have cleared it.
We also recognized that tetherless throttles would be a good investment.
I'm sure that those of you who are experienced operators are getting quite a chuckle out of our trials and tribulations. To be honest, we only have a couple of members who understand how to operate a layout. The club has not had access to a layout that allows operations for many years. However, we are learning as we stumble along. Eventually we will get it right.
I am actually quite proud of how far the club has come in the last 2 years. We have gone from being in an almost untenable situation to having a decent clubouse and a layout in progress that impresses everyone who sees it, experienced and otherwise.
Well that fixes that problem, on with the next.
hon30critterAn annoying little update about the show:
We found the prizes! We had managed to leave them at the back door of the hall when we were packing up! Duh!! To further add to our stupidity, we all thought that somebody else had contacted the venue to ask if they were there. Duh, duh!!
Why it took two weeks for the venue to contact us is anybody's guess, but it certainly wasn't their fault that we messed up.
I'm sorry to have raised a false alarm.
hon30critter An annoying little update about the show: We held a very successful raffle. Various vendors donated six very nice prizes and we added a President's Choice train set. I personally contacted all of the winners and they were very pleased. However, when I went looking for the prizes to deliver them they were nowhere to be found! We know they were still at the back door of the hall waiting to be loaded when the show was over. They never made it to the clubhouse. We checked with the last few vendors to leave the show in the hopes that the prizes might have been picked up by mistake, but that was not the case. I can't imagine that any of our members would have walked off with them. That leaves us in the situation where we will either have to buy replacement prizes or give out cash equivalents. That is going to cost us several hundred dollars. Life is never simple! Dave
An annoying little update about the show:
We held a very successful raffle. Various vendors donated six very nice prizes and we added a President's Choice train set. I personally contacted all of the winners and they were very pleased. However, when I went looking for the prizes to deliver them they were nowhere to be found! We know they were still at the back door of the hall waiting to be loaded when the show was over. They never made it to the clubhouse.
We checked with the last few vendors to leave the show in the hopes that the prizes might have been picked up by mistake, but that was not the case. I can't imagine that any of our members would have walked off with them.
That leaves us in the situation where we will either have to buy replacement prizes or give out cash equivalents. That is going to cost us several hundred dollars.
Life is never simple!
hon30critter We know they were still at the back door of the hall waiting to be loaded when the show was over. They never made it to the clubhouse.
Wow Dave, that is outrageous!
Hopefully you can narrow it down to who actually was handling the items at the end of the show, and those involved with getting the stuff to the club house.
That is unbelievable! I'd be to the point of shaking down everybody involved, but I know you would keep a cooler head than me.
Mike.
My You Tube
Dave, that is simply awful.
Is it possible that one of the visitors stole the prizes?
Who would be "persons of interest"? Club members, vendors, who else?
Rich
Alton Junction