Thanks, Dave, I appreciate your supportive words. I want to stay away from Brendan's threads because he has made it clear that he doesn't care to hear from me, but as I do continue to follow this thread, I really feel a need to reiterate what two guys after me have also suggested.
What seemed to set Brendan off was my suggestion that he consider removing all of the Atlas stuff and use Tortoises instead to control his turnouts. Now, that it is even more clear that he uses Atlas Custom Line turnouts, as I also do on my layout, the Tortoises would be ideal in that they can be easily automated through their internal switches to control the routes through the reversing loops. The Tortoises can also be easily used through their internal switches to control trackside signals and the LEDs on Brendan's control panel. All of this requires very little wiring and can be controlled by a DPDT toggle switch on the control panel.
As an aside, I have to say that I have never, until yesterday, been called a bully in my life, let alone abusive or offensive. So, the accusations hurt.
From the first moment that I started to follow and reply to this thread, my sincere intention has been to lend assistance and advice to Brendan. Am I the most diplomatic guy on the forum? Probably not. But, if my more recent suggestions or comments have been made in an increasingly frustrated tone, it is because it bothers me to see our OP struggle with the same layout-related problems that we all encounter, spending time and money when the solution may be far simpler and cheaper.
As this thread takes a turn into powering turnout frogs, I am not convinced that unpowered frogs are the problem. Maybe yes, maybe no, but if they are, it is very easy to also power the frogs through the Tortoise. So, again, I raise the Tortoise as an all-powerful solution. And, I note that the LION and zstripe (Frank) followed up with the same good advice.
What I would suggest at this point is that the shorting/stalling problem be further analyzed and resolved. If it is simply a pause due to loss of power because the turnout is not fully level and stable, then there is no need to power the frog. Brendan continues to express bewilderment over the exact structure of a Dash 8-40 b. Well it is a 2-truck, 4-axle diesel, meaning that each truck contains 2 axles.
On the Atlas model, of which I have 3 Dash 8-40b diesels, both trucks are powered, so the loco should not stall when passing over a frog. Have my Dash 8-40b diesels ever stalled on a frog? Yes. Why? Because one of the trucks had lost power when the pick up wire lost its soldered connection. If that, per chance, is Brendan's problem, it is easily diagnosed by lifting one end of the loco off the track to see if the other truck still has power. Repeat the procedure by lifting the other end of the loco to see if power is being applied to the other truck.
On a related note, I continue to focus on the possibility of an unresolved, momentary short caused by a conflict between the PSX-ARSC and the PSX-1. If you simply look at the PSX-ARSC instruction sheet, the pertinent diagram clearly shows the PSX-ARSC in front of the PSX-1. It cannot be wired downstream or else a conflict will arise. The PSX-1 will detect the same short that the PSX-ARSC detects, and the PSX-1, a circuit breaker, will shut down the system faster than the PSX-ARSC which needs an additional milisecond to react to the short by flipping the polarities. This is a well known wiring fault that even the most accomplished modelers encounter if they are not careful with their wiring.
I am not saying with certainty that it is a wiring fault in Brendan's case. But, it sure sounds like a momentary short to me since the loco comes to a stop and then starts up again without human intervention. I had previously raised this issue, and it is easy to test for. Since the non-reversing section of the layout does not actually require a PSX-1 (because the Power Cab booster will protect the overall layout), the PSX-1 could be temporarily removed to resolve the conflict if, indeed, there is a conflict.
The fact that Brendan has wired the layout in a star fashion, as opposed to a more traditional bus setup, lends credence to the momentary short due to the circuit breaker conflict. Depending upon the exact design of the star pattern, it may well be that the PSX-ARSC is inadvertently wired downstream of the PSX-1. That would also tend to explain why the other PSX-ARSC is not causing the same problem.
Believe me, guys, I am only trying to help. I will go back to one of my very first replies to this thread and reiterate that the problem needs to be narrowed down. It could be wiring, placement of gaps, the turnout itself, the placement of the various circuit breakers, faulty track work, an unpowered frog, the loco itself. You need to narrow down the problem through process of elimination.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi Brendan:
I'm sorry to hear about your family situation. At least the kids will have a stable and loving place to go when they need it - your home.
If I can offer my worth, I think you over reacted a bit to Rich's occassionally acerbic manner. I really can't imagine that he intended to bully you in any way. He has made some fairly direct suggestions but I'm pretty sure he isn't trying to force you to follow his advice despite what you may have thought.
I suspect your emotions are close to the surface given both your family situation and your frustrations with the layout, and that may be making you a bit over sensitive to how people word things. Look at it this way, you have done more layout building in two months than many people do in a year or more, so you have also had more problems in two months than many experience in a year. That would get anyone frustrated.
I would also agree with the suggestion that you try to shorten your posts somewhat. Those of us who are following your thread understand clearly what you have been through so you don't need to repeat yourself as often as you tend to do. I often suffer from verbal diarrhea when I am responding to a question on the forums, but ultimately it is counter productive.
Please understand that I am trying to be helpful and supportive even if my comments do sting a bit. My intention, as well as everyone else's I believe, is to help you succeed in your goals, and your grandchildren are going to need that more than ever given what they, and you, are about to go through.
With respect, and best wishes,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I ran my train in a ping pong bewteen the 2 reversing loops and let everything happen automatically. I ran it at full speed. The only thing I did different was after the train left the reversing loop I reset the turnouts to their default "normal" position which is straight through. The train ran without incident back and forth for over 30 circuits.
I also tool a level to the turnouts and the track around them. Everything was dead on level. The only hiccup was holding the level over the frogs or insulated areas. Those areas were higher by design than the rest of the turnout.
I will try powering the frogs to see if that takes care of the problem. I have some technical questions in that regard that I hope to get answered first.
Actually before I do that I want to get in another locomotive and rule out the possibility that this has anything to do with the locomotive.
mobilman44 Good Morning! How ironic.....This morning I opened the last page of this thread and the first post was the OP's "Thanks Rich", and the last post (at that time) was the OP calling him a "bully", etc., etc. I've known Richhotrain for years. He, like I, was born and raised in Chicago - and Chicago boys suffer no fools. He is a good man, and his only fault is he tries too hard to help others (even when they refuse to help themselves). This thread has totally gotten out of hand. It is way too long, too wordy, and the many "chases down rabbit trails" are endless. And the rest of it belongs elsewhere, perhaps the "Diner", perhaps not. Lots more I could say, but that would only upset those that value "political corectness", good manners, and tact.
Good Morning!
How ironic.....This morning I opened the last page of this thread and the first post was the OP's "Thanks Rich", and the last post (at that time) was the OP calling him a "bully", etc., etc.
I've known Richhotrain for years. He, like I, was born and raised in Chicago - and Chicago boys suffer no fools. He is a good man, and his only fault is he tries too hard to help others (even when they refuse to help themselves).
This thread has totally gotten out of hand. It is way too long, too wordy, and the many "chases down rabbit trails" are endless. And the rest of it belongs elsewhere, perhaps the "Diner", perhaps not.
Lots more I could say, but that would only upset those that value "political corectness", good manners, and tact.
Hey Mobilman44, I don't see a contradiction in thanking someone for being helpful and confronting that same person later on if they act in an offensive manner, but you are entitled to your opinion. The world I live in is not black or white and I am not particularly dogmatic.
I don't know about political correctness. I value civility. I can handle candor and honesty but I draw the line at offensive.
I was raised in Brooklyn, N.Y. Brooklyn was not an easy place to come up in. People tell me I don't suffer fools gladly, but they also tell me I am respectful of others.
I started this thread to share and converse with others. No one is required to read it or post on it. I thnk it has actually flowed rather smoothly and hope it will continue to do so. I also think there is information on it that would be helpful to others like me who are just getting into model railroading.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Sir Madog Brendan, I am sorry to hear about the family issues you have to deal with. Unfortunately, parents hardly think about their children when they split up.
Brendan,
I am sorry to hear about the family issues you have to deal with. Unfortunately, parents hardly think about their children when they split up.
Thank you Ulrich.
I can only chime in with regard to Rich. He certainly is no big bully, but a helpful chap with his own, sometimes rather rough, sense of humor.
Take his words for what they are - the attempt to give you a view on the problems you describe and a possible solution, which may not be always spot on. But that´s also true for a number of answers one gets in a forum.
BigDaddy Brendan Buschi are there problems with coming into a turnout from it's switched position? If you are entering the turnout from the point side, the loco should act identically no matter what route is selected. In practice many modelers and railroads, return the points to the mainline direction after the train passes through. How you define mainline in a reversing loop is up to you.
Brendan Buschi are there problems with coming into a turnout from it's switched position?
If you are entering the turnout from the point side, the loco should act identically no matter what route is selected.
In practice many modelers and railroads, return the points to the mainline direction after the train passes through. How you define mainline in a reversing loop is up to you.
Thanks Henry, this is good to know. I'm not sure what is normal and what isn't in terms of turnouts. I will eventually get to the thread you recommended.
We are with our grandchildren and they are unaware their parents are divorcing. We just found out a week ago. I love them dearly.
BigDaddy I think Rich was genuinely trying to be helpful and what you perceived as bullying was Internet humor that didn't translate well. Rehashing who said what is to no one's benefit especially the rest of the forum.
I think Rich was genuinely trying to be helpful and what you perceived as bullying was Internet humor that didn't translate well. Rehashing who said what is to no one's benefit especially the rest of the forum.
Those who know me well after 12 years on the forum know this to be true. I had just vowed to stop replying to Brendan's threads, but I couldn't let your statement go unappreciated.
Brendan Buschiare there problems with coming into a turnout from it's switched position?
I believe I have this story straight, The guy who started Litchfield Station (store like Tony's Trains) calls himself Mr. DCC recomends adding a normally closed push buttton to the PSX board to protect a NCE Powercab. http://mrdccu.com/curriculum/nce/101.html
I am not the electric whiz here so I have no educated opinion, except I installed one on my system. I have not tested it yet.
I am sorry Brendan that you are having domestic problems. Come join us in Jefferys Trackside thread, where everyone shares their joys and woes.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Brendan, I will stop responding to your threads because you seem to resent my help. But I will leave you with a short story.
Some years ago, I started a thread whining about how my trains were derailing and cars uncoupling over a section of track that bridged a location on my layout where I had recently added new benchwork to my existing layout. After several members tried to be helpful and discrete by gently offering advice about leveling the track at the point of the problem, one member in frustration finally wrote "FIX THE HUMP". That was it, nothing more. Instead of scolding him for being a bully, I took his advice and fixed the hump. To date, it is the best piece of advice that I have ever received from a forum member, and I am forever grateful for it.
Good luck in your endeavor!
richhotrain LOL Excuses, excuses, excuses. Newbie or not, you failed to test the track work thoroughly. As you found out, just because one route works doesn't mean that the reverse route will work. Welcome to the world of model railroading. I hope that the forum is charging you for bandwith. It took me 15 minutes to read your latest treatise. Seriously though, I am going to make a suggestion for you to consider. Toss out all of that Atlas stuff that fills up your huge control panel and install Tortoises to control your turnouts. You can install simple DPDT toggle switches to control your routes and light your LEDs. You can use the Tortoises to automate your routes. Right now, you have over-complicated a simple layout. Rich
LOL
Excuses, excuses, excuses. Newbie or not, you failed to test the track work thoroughly. As you found out, just because one route works doesn't mean that the reverse route will work. Welcome to the world of model railroading.
I hope that the forum is charging you for bandwith. It took me 15 minutes to read your latest treatise.
Seriously though, I am going to make a suggestion for you to consider. Toss out all of that Atlas stuff that fills up your huge control panel and install Tortoises to control your turnouts. You can install simple DPDT toggle switches to control your routes and light your LEDs. You can use the Tortoises to automate your routes. Right now, you have over-complicated a simple layout.
I responded to what you are now raising on the other thread.
You are not required to read or respond to anything I write. You go out of your way to access blame and criticize. You are not friendly. You come across as a nasty bully at times.
I can handle all that. It is who you are. Aside from your less than stellar personality, you have been dead wrong several times on this blog.
You have been advising me to toss out all kinds of things and not explore different options all along. Well, this is my layout. If I want to "over-complicate" it that's my business not yours.
I enjoy learning new things. If that bothers you go see a therapist or calm yourself down by taking up a hobby. And get this, my layout will have the solar system on it. It will have the Empire State Building on it too and King Kong will be climbing it. Before it is done it will also have some subway cars running on an elevated track and it will all work just fine. Can you dig it?
Okay, I am back here and will hopefully stay here.
This occurred to me after all the posting on my reversing loop problem was finished.
Before I automated the reversing loops I was manually throwing a switch to reverse a loop's polarity and another to switch the turnout's position. The turnouts were always in the straight through position when I turned the layout on.
Here is the procedure I followed religiously each time a train entered the loop:
1. Once the train was fully inside the loop I threw the switch to reverse the polarity and the switch to change the turnout position.
2. Immediately after the train had fully exited the loop I again threw the switch to reverse that loop's polarity and another switch to return that loop's turnout to the straight through position.
So, when I was manually controlling each loop the only way a train ever entered it was from the straight through position.
When I got the new Atlas diesel, I tested the engine on every inch of my layout using the above procedures on the reversing loops. I never tested anything with the train entering either reversing loop with the turnout in a switched position.
Everything worked and I was very happy. When I got the PSX-ARSCs in I installed them and they worked. When I first installed them I only used their auto polarity reversing function, I did not configure them to switch the turnouts. I continued to switch the turnouts manually and I did so following my procedure in which the turnouts were left in the straight through position after the train had fully exited the loop.
When I was content, and I was, that everything was working properly, I configured the PSX-ARSCs to allow them to automatically control the turnouts switch positions. That also worked fine and I stopped. The big difference with a PSX-ARSC controlling a turnout was that it left the turnout in whatever position it was after the train exited it. This is the exact opposite of what I was doing manually.
I had no problems with anything until I sent a train back into a reversing loop after I had already gone through that loop at least once. All of my problems were only happening if a train entered a reversing loop with the turnout in the switched position instead of the straight through position. When that was happening I was so focused on what was happening that I totally forgot that entering a reversing loop on my layout with the turnout in a switched position was radically different.
I do not know enough about any of this to know what is normal and what isn't in terms of how things work. I knew virtually nothing about turnouts. When I chose my turnouts I did so after reading about the difference between Atlas' Snap Switches and their Custom Line turnouts. I read that with the Custom Line turnouts gave yo the option of powering the frogs. I had no idea what a frog was, but I like having options if need be. That is why I got the Custom Line turnouts.
Keep in mind that all this is new to me.
When I was initially finished with the mechnaical and electrical construction of my layout I was powering it using DCS and running an MTH diesel with DCS. When I tested everything it worked flawlessly. I was very happy and getting ready to work with the kids on the layout's scenery.
The next thing I did was order 5 freight cars. When the first 3 came in I tested everything again and all was well. The next day the remaining 2 cars came in and I tested the train with all 5 cars. Everything worked, but the locomotive was decoupling from the rest of the train at a particular spot. I did not know it at the time but this was a problem unique to MTH locomotives when using the protocouplers that came installed on them. Finally, when all was working flawlessly, I was allowing myself to just enjoy a full train going around one of the main loops. I wasn't touching anything. After 5 or 6 successful runs, everything stopped dead and that locomotive never came back to life.
The rest is a very sad history. I found out that MTH had unique problems which included a design flaw in terms of their much touted protocouplers. The protocouplers could and did short out and take out the locomotive's control unit. Undaunted I decided to proceed. I would return the defective locomotive to the dealer for repair and also get a second locomotive to proceed with. My plan was to make sure it was running and then swap out the protocouplers with the extra Kadee couplers that MTH gives you with a new locomotive. I had also gotten in an NCE DCC Power Cab starter system but had not yet installed it. I had decided to abandon DCS and move to DCC and use MTH locomotives.
That plan never got off the ground because the new steam locomotive did not run out of the box. When that happened I was able to test the track using an old DC locomotive I had and it worked. Through all this I was using MTH's DCS Commander with the Z-1000 power supply that it came with. I could not get the new locomotive to run in either DC or DCS mode using the DCS Commander.
At that point I installed the NCE Power Cab and tried to run the new locomotive in DCC mode. That didn't work. At that point I decided to return as much of the MTH equipment as possible and move on using non-MTH equipment with DCC.
I now had 2 very different agendas. I wanted to get a refund on the MTH equipment and I wanted to redo my layout to work with DCC. It appears I have accomplished the first agenda.
Progress on the second agenda began with my ordering an Atlas diesel locomotive and circuit protection and auto reversing units made by DCC Specialties. After speaking with NCE I ordered 2 PSX-ARSC units for my reversing loops and 1 PSX-1 unit for the rest of the layout. I installed the 3 PSX controllers when they came in. I had to do some minor rewiring to do that. My layout would have one Power Block that was divided into three Power Districts. I wired and tested the modified layout. I did the quarter test and I also tested the track voltage and current along every inch of the track with a new highly accurate meter I got from Tony's. Once again everything was testing flawlessly.
When the new Atlas locomotive arrived I set it up and began testing it. The rest is well documented on this blog.
Please remember that I have been at this since March of this year - not even a full 3 months and during the first month I was focused on layout design. Prior to March I had not touched a model train in about 60 years. I did not know DC from DCS from DCC. In the process of converting to DCC I was talking with a lot of folks who sold AR controllers about automating the reversing loops and was being told I needed units that could control snap switches. They referred to my Atlas turnouts as snap switches as opposed to snap coils, which would have been more precise. The SC in the PSX-ARSC units I got stands for snap coil. Unfortunately I missed this distinction when I was trying to describe things here.
So this is where I am right now. My layout is not finished.
I am considering putting in a simple normally off push button switch that will allow me to always return my reversing loop turnouts to a straight through position immediately after a train exits either of them. That should eliminate all my problems.
My new question is, is this the right thing to do or should I work to resolve the issue of going into and out of the reversing loops with the turnouts switched in any position? To be very precise let me ask for one additional clarification - independent of anything else, are there problems with coming into a turnout from it's switched position?
By now, you should have swapped those two turnouts.
Hey Dave, I will post a photo. It may be a few hours.
Brendan BuschiTrust me, I will do everything you suggest to get to the problem.
We trust you Brendan!
I'm going to post my response on the thread that you just started regarding this topic.
richhotrain hon30critter Hi Brendan: Brendan Buschi I'm betting my money on the turnout. I would suggest not making any assumptions at all. Dave I agree with you, Dave. When this kind of problem is encountered, there is no room for assumptions. What needs to be done is to eliminate possibilities to get closer to a solution. If you are going to bet money on the turnout, swap it out with a known good one such as the turnout controlling the other reverse loop. Rich
hon30critter Hi Brendan: Brendan Buschi I'm betting my money on the turnout. I would suggest not making any assumptions at all. Dave
Brendan Buschi I'm betting my money on the turnout.
I would suggest not making any assumptions at all.
I agree with you, Dave. When this kind of problem is encountered, there is no room for assumptions.
What needs to be done is to eliminate possibilities to get closer to a solution. If you are going to bet money on the turnout, swap it out with a known good one such as the turnout controlling the other reverse loop.
Trust me, I will do everything you suggest to get to the problem. There are a couple of other things I will do as well.
richhotrain Brendan Buschi The thing that gets me is the fact that it only happens when the train is exiting and the turnout is not in a switched position. So, it doesn't happen when the loco enters the reverse loop on the straight through route? Rich
Brendan Buschi The thing that gets me is the fact that it only happens when the train is exiting and the turnout is not in a switched position.
The thing that gets me is the fact that it only happens when the train is exiting and the turnout is not in a switched position.
So, it doesn't happen when the loco enters the reverse loop on the straight through route?
It only happens when the loco leaves the reverse loop and the turnout is on the straight through route.
It never happens when the loco enters the reverse loop or when it leaves the reverse loop and the turnout is switched.
Brendan BuschiI'm betting my money on the turnout.
Hey Rich, I will jump on this tomorrow. I understand all your suggestions and this is normally how I would go about something like this. The thing that gets me is the fact that it only happens when the train is exiting and the turnout is not in a switched position. Coupled with that is the fact that it doesn't happen if I stop the train momentarily.
I'm betting my money on the turnout. I don't know enought about turnouts to know what the issues are. I'm not giving up and I truly appreciate your advice.
Brendan Buschi Thanks Rich. I've taken your advice and started a new topic on just this issue. We'll see what happens.
Thanks Rich. I've taken your advice and started a new topic on just this issue. We'll see what happens.
1. Swap the turnouts controlling the two reverse loops to see if the turnout is the problem.
2. Swap the PSX-ARSC units to see if the AR unit is at the heart of the problem.
3. Observe the entry/exit routes to determine when the problem occurs and when it doesn't, noting the exact polarity inside and outside the reverse loop.
4. Review the PSX-ARSC settings, using the manual as your guide.
What I believe may be happening is that the Power Cab booster detects a short and shuts down the system.
You gotta do some detective work here because on the basis of the information provided, it is unlikely that someone can provide a definitive answer at this point.
Brendan Buschi One last thing on the reversing loop problem. If I stop the train after it exits the reversing loop and the polarity reverses but before it hits the frog and then start it again it just sails right through. I hope that makes sense.
One last thing on the reversing loop problem. If I stop the train after it exits the reversing loop and the polarity reverses but before it hits the frog and then start it again it just sails right through.
I hope that makes sense.
Thanks Rich.
Brendan Buschi richhotrain It probably is a short, either as a result of your wiring or, more likely, one of the settings on your auto-reverser. When a loco stalls, then starts up again, coming out of a reverse loop, there typically is a conflict between the booster and the auto-reverser, so the booster shuts down the system. As soon as the system is reset, the loco starts up again. There are 2 ways into the loop and 2 ways out. It does not short going in either way and it only shorts goind out one of the 2 possible ways. There are no settings on the auto-reverser. The leds on the auto-reverser indicate correct polarity in all cases. This only happens when it reaches the frog which is after the polarity has been reversed. The frog is insulated. Does this make sense?
richhotrain It probably is a short, either as a result of your wiring or, more likely, one of the settings on your auto-reverser. When a loco stalls, then starts up again, coming out of a reverse loop, there typically is a conflict between the booster and the auto-reverser, so the booster shuts down the system. As soon as the system is reset, the loco starts up again.
There are 2 ways into the loop and 2 ways out. It does not short going in either way and it only shorts goind out one of the 2 possible ways. There are no settings on the auto-reverser. The leds on the auto-reverser indicate correct polarity in all cases. This only happens when it reaches the frog which is after the polarity has been reversed. The frog is insulated. Does this make sense?
The reason that the discussion can be complicated is that the problem may be caused by wiring, gap placement, the installation of the AR unit itself, the interaction of the AR unit with the primary DCC booster, or the loco causing the problem (assuming that other locos do not cause the problem). Sometimes, an OP does not provide adequate information about the problem. Other times, an OP fails to adequately observe and report the problem. Still other times, it just takes a lot of give and take between the OP and those replying to get to the heart of the problem.
One thing that I will mention at the outset is that you might well be better off staring a new thread concerning this problem on the Electronics and DCC forum. This thread has grown long and unwieldly, taking all kinds of twists and turns, so the electronics experts may not be made aware of this issue. But, I will leave that decision up to you.
Back to your problem. If I recall correctly, you said that this problem only occurs on one of your reverse loops. Hmm, maybe it is the turnout. Then again, maybe not. Could be the wiring or the gaps or the PSX-ARSC that controls the reverse loop. You could swap one or the other or both to narrow down the search for a solution.
If you do have a PSX-ARSC as I think you do, then there are settings on that auto-reverser unit, lots of them. It may or may not be that the settings need to be tinkered with to resolve the problem.
Also, it is worth noting that on a classic reverse loop, as on your layout, once polarity is flipped, the auto-reverser performs the opposite task the next time that the same route is chosen. So, sometimes it is flipping polarities, while at other times, polarities match upon entry and then flip upon exit. You need to observe this behavior to determine when the problem occurs and when it doesn't.
Hope this helps.
Brendan Buschi richhotrain Brendan Buschi I am going to see my dealer today. Hopefully this will put the entire MTH debacle behind me. If all goes as I have been assured I will have a refund on the 2 locomotives and a credit on the DCS Commander. If that happens I will use the credit with the dealer to purchase some MTH passenger cars. I'll let you know what happens. At this point, why even bother with MTH cars? There are plenty of other good brands out there for the choosing. Rich The MTH passenger cars have gotten excellent reviews on this blog from people who have no use whatsoever for MTH. I was getting a refund and a credit. If I used the credit for anything else I would be losing money. I cannot get a better price anywhere on an MTH product than I can from my dealer. That is not the case with other manufacturer's products.
richhotrain Brendan Buschi I am going to see my dealer today. Hopefully this will put the entire MTH debacle behind me. If all goes as I have been assured I will have a refund on the 2 locomotives and a credit on the DCS Commander. If that happens I will use the credit with the dealer to purchase some MTH passenger cars. I'll let you know what happens. At this point, why even bother with MTH cars? There are plenty of other good brands out there for the choosing. Rich
Brendan Buschi I am going to see my dealer today. Hopefully this will put the entire MTH debacle behind me. If all goes as I have been assured I will have a refund on the 2 locomotives and a credit on the DCS Commander. If that happens I will use the credit with the dealer to purchase some MTH passenger cars. I'll let you know what happens.
I am going to see my dealer today. Hopefully this will put the entire MTH debacle behind me. If all goes as I have been assured I will have a refund on the 2 locomotives and a credit on the DCS Commander. If that happens I will use the credit with the dealer to purchase some MTH passenger cars. I'll let you know what happens.
At this point, why even bother with MTH cars? There are plenty of other good brands out there for the choosing.
The MTH passenger cars have gotten excellent reviews on this blog from people who have no use whatsoever for MTH. I was getting a refund and a credit. If I used the credit for anything else I would be losing money. I cannot get a better price anywhere on an MTH product than I can from my dealer. That is not the case with other manufacturer's products.
As for MTH, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. No need to reply to this post if you have made up your mind to go with MTH pasenger cars.