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Layout From Start To Finish Locked

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 5:53 PM

Brendan Buschi

I got my first freight cars today - all 3. It was great seeing them going around being pulled by the locomotive. It was great seeing them navigate all the tracks and turnouts.

I learned a few things.

First - people have complained about the automatic couplers on MTH locomotives. I experienced what they described. It was being caused by a very slight bump in the track where it went over a seam. I fixed the seam and all's well - no more decoupling.

I am growing increasingly confused. Do the MTH proto-couplers cause problems or not?  Was it a slight bump in the track where it went over a seam or is it something more than that?  Do the MTH proto-couplers need to be replaced?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by rallison on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 5:36 PM
No problem, Brendan. Just remember my advice is worth every penny you paid for it. ;-) It is a shame about the couplers--it's one of the distinguishing features of MTH's locos. But I've learned (with practice) to uncouple cars fairly reliably on my industrial spurs with Kadee #308 under-the-track magnetic uncouplers, and will be using the #309 electromagnetic uncoupler at the entrance to my yard, so most of what I would have used the proto-couplers for I can cover with the Kadee products. PS: I'm not a big steamer guy, but I did get one -- a Broadway limited Reading T1 4-8-4, and I'm very happy with it.
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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 5:30 PM

rallison
No, though by the third or fourth return I was asking them to exchange for a new one, as the repeat repairs and shipments had taken a toll on the engines' appearance. But if they'd just exchanged for new I would have had the same problems given that the issue at heart was the design of the proto-coupler on the one hand, and the over-amped power supply on the other.

Rick, I'm not clear what the issue is with the MTH proto-coupler. How is the proto-coupler part of Brendan's problem? Can you give us a little more detail on this?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 5:22 PM

Brendan, it is not clear to me what you are considering as an equipment strategy on a go forth basis.

What equipment is damaged and in need of repair? Is the electronics component of the MTH locomotive at fault and in need of repair? Is the DCS controlled at fault and in need of repair?

You have now bought an NCE Power Cab. Do you intend to replace the DCS system with DCC, or will you revert to DCS once the damaged system is repaired?  Which system will you keep and which system will you sell?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 4:39 PM

Hello All, I spoke with my dealer today. He is replacing my engine with the exact same one I originally bought. He is also giving me a great discount on the steam engine I want. He is also going to address all this with MTH.

Rick was dead on about the MTH protocouplers. They are certainly a source of problems. I think he is also dead on about the amperage on the DCS Commander. I think he is also dead on about MTH making great locomotives - minus the protocouplers. Thanks again Rick.

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 4:35 PM

Hey Mel - that's great. Thanks again.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 4:12 PM

The only critical portion of a reversing loop is the turnout if the track is perfect.  Only about two thirds of my reversing loop is viewable from my control panel, I’ve never had a problem.
 
I use WS rock molds, three of the molds are 4”x 6”.  I stack them vertical and horizontal, I alternate and rotate the castings 180° randomly so that a large surface area doesn’t look like one small casting over and over.
 
I use a cake decorating frosting applicator with a soupy Plaster of Paris mix to mortar the castings together.  I have to use it quickly and clean it with water or it’s a goner.  To add strength to the casting I use Drywall tape on the back of the castings as I stack them.
 
The process is like laying bricks.  You can carve the “mortar lines” with a carving tool as the plaster sets up (when it crumbles with a carving tool) so that they look like part of the casting or one big rock.
 
  
 
The highest rock I’ve made is 6 layers or about 24 inches high.  I really like making rocks!!!!  It's so messy!
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 3:02 PM

Hey Mel, Did you mean to put the extra sidings inside the tunnel? I would be terrified to have any part of my reversing loops not in view. While I've got you do you have any advice on putting a sheer rock face on the layout side of my tunnel?

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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 2:50 PM

I should have made myself a bit clearer about my idea of expanding your mountain.
 
I wasn’t intending for you to make your layout larger, just the mountain.
 
 
 
 
 
 
No sheer or retaining walls needed
 
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 1:49 PM

Hey Rich, I assume that's where the loco in locomotive comes from.

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 8:58 AM

Brendan Buschi

Hey Mel, if I understand you right you are suggesting I extend the table on the far side. The side opposite where I have my little command station. I think you make an excellent suggestion. On the other hand, I have expanded the table several times and each time I swore to my wife it would be the last.

 

OK, that's it. You are a model railroader!   Laugh

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 8:36 AM

Hey Mel, if I understand you right you are suggesting I extend the table on the far side. The side opposite where I have my little command station. I think you make an excellent suggestion. On the other hand, I have expanded the table several times and each time I swore to my wife it would be the last.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 8:00 AM

Brendan my big mistake was not having two more long hidden siding sidings to park full trains.  I didn’t realize I needed them until I bought my DCC system.  I’ve looked at adding another 8” to the back side of my layout but it just isn’t feasible because of my scenery.  You on the other hand haven’t started your scenery; it should be easy to expand at this point.
 
Don’t make a mistake by not changing things early on that you’ll be sorry for later!  My layout was built long before DCC for a single train operation and I’m stuck with it.  At 79 I’m past building a new layout for a multiple train operation.
 
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
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Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 7:06 AM

Brendan Buschi
I could have done the table as a large Saturn and had track running around the rings that surround it.

That would be neat!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 6:42 AM

Good point Dave. I just realized I may hav blown my opportunity. I could have done the table as a large Saturn and had track running around the rings that surround it.

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Posted by hon30critter on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 1:27 AM

Brendan Buschi
Keep in mind my tunnel could be Mars.

Brendan, unless Einstein was wrong, the clearances on Mars will be the same as on EarthSmile, Wink & GrinLaughLaughLaughClown

Regards

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Monday, May 30, 2016 10:57 PM

Very nice Mel.

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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, May 30, 2016 10:34 PM

Brendan Buschi

Hey Mel, I am always amazed at what you guys have been doing. I never would have thought of what you recommended. I will have to look at it tomorrow, but I think I might go with a vertical rock face for the very reasons both you and Dave have mentioned. Thanks.

 

I not only have double tunnel Portals but one of them has a tall sheer rock casting in a corner.
 
 
 
I’m redoing the almost 30 year old faded scenery with new unfaded flocking and rock stain.  I have removed about 50 trees on the mountain while I redo the scenery.
 
Imagination is the name of the game when it comes down to model railroading.
 
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Monday, May 30, 2016 10:12 PM

Hey Mel, I am always amazed at what you guys have been doing. I never would have thought of what you recommended. I will have to look at it tomorrow, but I think I might go with a vertical rock face for the very reasons both you and Dave have mentioned. Thanks.

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Monday, May 30, 2016 10:08 PM

Thanks Dave. Good advice. Keep in mind my tunnel could be Mars.

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Monday, May 30, 2016 10:06 PM

Thanks Dave, good advice. I just wanted to see what people I’ve been talking with here had to say. I think I have a plan. I had been looking at an MTH Steam engine for when I finished the layout. Then the issue with the diesel left me totally disoriented about what to do and how to proceed. In talking with everyone here, I was able to sort through my confusion and anxiety and come up with a solution – at least a plan A.
 I definitely decided to abandon the DCS Commander and move to DCC. I ordered the DCC controller I plan on using. I was able to do that because I got a lot of responses and that particular unit was on almost everybody’s list. That helped me to refine my search on the web. Instead of researching 20 DCC controllers I was looking at 2 or 3. I even had some clear advice on what the issues were and what to look for. It would have taken me days without the feedback here. I also got firsthand information from Rick. He had the exact same problem and resolved it. He got rid of the DCS Commander, but he kept his MTH engines and is very happy with them. Today I was looking at steam locomotives, but I was also following up on Rick’s reports about the MTH locomotives. Everything I read led me to conclude that they are not the problem provided I take a few precautions like swapping out the proto couplers. I am also looking into the reversing/circuit protection issue. Tomorrow I will be able to talk with some of the techs at some of the companies that make components.
 The feedback I get here is always valuable to me. I know there is not a single solution to any problem. I’ve had 2 months of building a layout. I have no experience with the actual trains. The guys on this thread have come through for me.
 
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Posted by RR_Mel on Monday, May 30, 2016 10:03 PM

Just a comment about Dave’s too close theory, you could move the tunnel portals further out and include the loop tracks with a double tunnel portal then have the loops exit the mountain through single portals . . . . enlarge your mountain.
 
I’m mountain crazy, my mountains cover a third of my layout but then again I love working on rural and mountain scenery.  I have two dual track tunnel portals and seven single tunnel portals.  Mountains, trestles and bridges are my thing.
 
 
 
Mel
 
Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951
 
My Model Railroad   
 
Bakersfield, California
 
I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
 
  • Member since
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  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, May 30, 2016 9:36 PM

Brendan:

The tunnel looks pretty good. Certainly will be solid!

I can't remember if you are planning on doing any scenery, but one observation I would make is that the ends of the tunnel are very close to the loop tracks that run beside it. If you want to add some scenery to make the top of the tunnel look like a hill, there is very little room to slope the hill at the tunnel ends. There are other options besides a sloped hill, like a vertical rock face or a retaining wall of course, but you will need to make sure anything running on the loops will not hit the tunnel scenery.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

  • Member since
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  • From: Bradford, Ontario
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Posted by hon30critter on Monday, May 30, 2016 9:26 PM

Brendan:

I can't answer your question about which DCC steam engine to buy because I'm mostly into diesel. I do have a few steamers but they are mostly older Tyco and Mantua kits. They run fine on DCC but they require a fair bit of work to get them to that point. I don't suggest you go that route. I do have one Bachmann Spectrum steam locomotive and I am quite happy with it, although it has only done a few trips up and down the test track.

What I would suggest you do is start another thread asking specifically for locomotive recommendations. This thread has grown a bit long and you might be missing out on the advice of experienced steam modelers if they aren't following this thread closely.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Monday, May 30, 2016 5:31 PM

Hey Rich, Thanks. I didn't understand that until now.

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, May 30, 2016 5:20 PM

Brendan Buschi

Thanks Cuyama. I don't think I have the stomach at the moment to deliberately short out the track. I've been scrupulously avoinding doing anything to cause a short anywhere.

Besides, if I'm doing it, there is always a loco on the tracks. Truth be told I'm afraid of the tracks at this moment. Thankfully I had an old DC locomotive to test on the layout after my locomotive ceased. It worked. I know the tracks are solid and working. I even tested every inch of them with my multimeter. The voltage is constant everywhere.

Deliberately shorting the tracks is something I could only do if I was assured that if everything exploded I would explode along with it. Then it would be left to others to clean up the mess.

I guess I could do this if I put an independent circuit breaker between the power source and the track. I could handle that tripping. Any recommendations for a stand alone circuit breaker to use?

 

When cuyama referred to a coin, a quarter is normally used since its circumference is sufficient to span both HO scale rails. For that reason, it is referred to as the "quarter test". But, for that matter, you could place a metal screw driver blade across the rails. I know that you have subsequently indicated that you are now willing to purposely short the rails, and I strongly encourage you to do it.

The thing to understand is that you are not testing the circuit  breaker capability of the booster, per se. What you are actually doing is testing the capacity of the feeder wires to cause a short which the booster's circuit breaker protection will sense.

In other words, if the wiring is sufficient to produce a high amp short, the quarter test will cause the booster to shut down the layout. If the quarter test fails to produce a short that causes the booster to shut down the layout, the wiring is inadequate and needs to be remedied.

For that reason, the best advice is to perform the quarter test throughout the layout, perhaps every 3 feet or so. Only in that way will you be certain that your wiring is adequate to protect your layout and your locos.

Hope that helps.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Monday, May 30, 2016 3:40 PM

A good night's sleep makes a world of difference. I am relaxed today and have begun work on the tunnel. I can't go past where I am because I have to wait for my granddaughter.

I've included a shot from the rear and one from the front. The wood is doweled into the top of the layout and can just be lifted off. You can see that the rear will be completely open. I have to work with Ever to design the top and sides. I got 2 tunnel portals for it. The portals aren't attached yet.

I plan on having the top slope up from the front and just sit over an open back. I hope I've said that in a way that is readily understandable. Evnetually I will post a picture of the finished tunnel.

I believe Rick has given me the best perspective on how to deal with the DCS issue. If I get the diesel back fixed and it works with DCC as it's supposed to, I'll be fine with that. I will not be fine with it taking months. I think I will also get an MTH Steam engine as I originally planned. It will be new and I can take it back the next day for a refund if it doesn't work, but I think it will.

Rick has mentioned the DCS Commander and its power supply as being a problem. I think he is accurate. My new controller should be here this week and I intend to install additional circuit protection on the layout before I put another train on it. I will also automate the reverse loop switching in the process.

If this all goes as I hope I will have spent extra money on the DCS Commander. I guess I could try to sell it, but I would not feel comfortable doing that unless I told this whole story to any prospective buyer and I'm not sure that will result in a sale. I intend to stay with DCC and if I have problems I will fix them. There are a ton of resources out there for DCC and none for DCS HO. I ordered 3 books last night and will have a lot of info at my finger tips in DCC. Plus, I know there are lots of people here to ask questions of.

I did a lot of research on the MTH HO locomotives today and could find nothing negative in regard to running them on DCC. I will qualify that by saying that I will only do that because I plan additional circuit breaker protection.

I believe I will have to cut one more manhole into my table top to have ready access to all of the track. This is not a problem.

The first thing I will do with the new DCC controller is short out the track in several places with no trains on the track. I don't think what happened with my locomotive was the result of a short. it may just have a marginal component on it's circuit board. Who knows? The other possibility is Kokopelli. Never underestimate Kokopelli.

My next door neighbor is 94. He has been ill and during this last month I have had to go over and pick him up off the floor several times. They have finally gotten some meaningful services and today the ambulance was there at least 3 times. When I think about that I realize my troubles are minor.

When I am done with this layout (ha), if the only extra expense I will have incurred is the cost of the DCS Commander, I will consider myself lucky.

Tunnel comments and advice will be most appreciated.

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Monday, May 30, 2016 11:30 AM

Thanks Ulrich. I love them dearly. The little doggie is Zachary. He watches over the yard with Zoey - another little black and white doggie who was too busy at the time to get in the picture. Do you have a program like Big Brothers where you are? It's basically for kids who need some adult mentoring in their lives.

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Posted by Brendan Buschi on Monday, May 30, 2016 11:25 AM

Hey Dan, I am very good about reeading all the manuals. Good advice. Thanks

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, May 30, 2016 9:40 AM

Looks like a good team to me!

I wish I had grandchildren ...

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