I agree with Dave you should have no regrets with a powercab, from the description of your requirements it should be more than sufficent. You may in the future want to add plug in locations and/or throttles (cabs) it is very simple. Last but not least read the well written manual, if you have questions or need help call them. My experience has been has been they are very concerned and helpful with the customer.
Dan
Here's the whole crew - 3 engineers and 1 loco.
You're a good man Rick.
Hey Rick, you definately took the high road with MTH. If they fix the engine in a timely fashion and it works, that's one thing. If they spend months with it, that's another. I sent them back an engine that look's like it never came out of the box, that's what I will expect to get back.
When I was at the dealer yesterday they told me that sometime around last December MTH went through some kind of major upheaval in their tech support. They said things were bad, but they are getting better now.
This actually did not result in my feeling better. I have had my own communications with MTH's tech support a few times since I got the equipment. I was asking for technical advice and they had none to give. I even spoke to the guy who was supposed to be in change of it and he said to send him an email and that he would get back to me - he never did.
I'm actually reminding myself of what you've told me to take the edge off. In the end it worked for you. I keep telling myself that.
Thanks again, You have been most helpful.
hon30critter [...] Anyhow, the important message is that you won't blow yourself up! Just don't test it with your tongue!!! Dave
[...]
Anyhow, the important message is that you won't blow yourself up! Just don't test it with your tongue!!!
Dave
Seconded. ;-)
Rick
Thanks Dave. I'm looking at some form of additional circuit protection now, getting another engine so I have sometnhing to use until MTH gets resolved and advancing with the tunnel.
Brendan Buschi Hey Rick, Holy Cow. Did they ever just give you the option to return the engines?
Hey Rick, Holy Cow. Did they ever just give you the option to return the engines?
No, though by the third or fourth return I was asking them to exchange for a new one, as the repeat repairs and shipments had taken a toll on the engines' appearance. But if they'd just exchanged for new I would have had the same problems given that the issue at heart was the design of the proto-coupler on the one hand, and the over-amped power supply on the other.
Also, on the bright side, the one long-turnaround service incident was when they were analyzing and re-configuring the electronics to protect the PS3 board from frying. That paid off, and may in the long run benefit others (like you) who've suffered the same problem.
-Rick
Brendan BuschiI don't think I have the stomach at the moment to deliberately short out the track. I've been scrupulously avoinding doing anything to cause a short anywhere.
Brendan:
First, congratulations on your decision to buy the Powercab. You won't be disappointed.
Second, testing your DCC system by shorting out the track is a normal and recommended procedure. Your DCC system has short circuit protection built into it but you have to make sure it is working. If the system doesn't shut down when you have a short you can have a situation where things like metal truck side frames start to get welded to the track, or plastic ties start to melt. Sometimes poor wiring can cause the circuit protection to fail to sense a short, but in your case I don't think there is any risk of that.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Thanks Cuyama, I just ordered it.
Brendan BuschiDeliberately shorting the tracks is something I could only do if I was assured that if everything exploded I would explode along with it.
I'm not saying to short the tracks with DCS. I don't know what happens with their gear.
This is a standard test one does with DCC to assure that wiring is sufficient.
A good wiring and DCC book might be helpful for you. Such as Wiring Your Model Railroad. While it's possible to glean information from many sites on the Internet, a single edited source might be clearer (IMHO).
Many manufacturers make DCC circuit breakers, including DCC Specialties.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Thanks Cuyama. I don't think I have the stomach at the moment to deliberately short out the track. I've been scrupulously avoinding doing anything to cause a short anywhere.
Besides, if I'm doing it, there is always a loco on the tracks. Truth be told I'm afraid of the tracks at this moment. Thankfully I had an old DC locomotive to test on the layout after my locomotive ceased. It worked. I know the tracks are solid and working. I even tested every inch of them with my multimeter. The voltage is constant everywhere.
Deliberately shorting the tracks is something I could only do if I was assured that if everything exploded I would explode along with it. Then it would be left to others to clean up the mess.
I guess I could do this if I put an independent circuit breaker between the power source and the track. I could handle that tripping. Any recommendations for a stand alone circuit breaker to use?
Thanks Dave, sound advice - nothing to apologize about. I ordered the NCE PowerCab tonight. Now I need to get a locomotive.
We had an art show yesterday and I didn't sleep the night before so I'm running on empty. Last night wasn't any better. I don't think I'll have any trouble tonight.
Sometimes you just feel like a deer caught in the headlights. I'm still processing exactly what happened when that locomotive ceased working. I got nothing. The MTH staff I talked to that day were of no help and I got the feeling I knew more they they did and I know absolutely nothing. To be fair it was their sales staff because the tech people won't be back till Tuesday.
I can handle something happening. Things happen. I can't handle the thought of waiting a long time to get the engine back. Maybe I'm worrying over nothing.
I do not like conflict. More than that I don't like to get taken advantage of. So if I start feeling like I'm being asked to play the fool, I will rise to the occasion. I just hate the thought of it.
I've run a few businesses. I've never screwed a customer - not once. Part of ordering the DCC equipment and getting an engine is to put to bed any and all questions about what is the problem. Nothing works like success and if non-MTH equipment does the job than there is only one honest conclusion to draw.
I will talk again with the dealer on Tuesday. He is authorized and he should have some leverage with MTH. If he steps up and advocates for me, this should all disappear. I will also talk with MTH.
I have had that engine for all of 2 months. It has seen less than 2 hours total run time. It was running on the completed layout just doing a few laps while I got to look at 5 new cars being pulled all at once for the very first time. I was taking in the scenery and then it stopped.
I am generally very busy and I have put the time into this. I haven't been careless. I bought the equipment from the only local dealer I have available to me so that if anything went wrong I would have a resource. I trusted that dealer.
You and the others here have been my only source of collaboration. I'm going into new territory and my link with the outside world is right here. Downstairs there is no one with me except for the kids at varying points. If I hear conflicting things I have to make sense out of it. In this endeavor I do not have the confidence that comes from experience.
So thank you for all your input.
In the meantime, I will put some effort into the tunnel. Its better to be busy than waiting around for the phone to ring. I was told today that MTH had a big shake up with their technical support and that things were bad, but they are vastly improving. I might as well go to bed with a good thought.
Brendan Buschi1. Would there be an issue with a star bus if all the feeds were the same lenght?
No idea, sorry. There's a simple test that involves shorting the rails with a coin all around the layout to make sure that the booster trips. Do this without a loco on the tracks.
Brendan BuschiWhat component would you use to automate the polarity reversing in a DCC reversing loop?
It's called an auto-reverser. There are a number of brands, some folks I know have had good luck with PSX from DCC Specialties, which are solid state, no relays. I haven't used any on my small switching layouts with NCE DCC, since there are no reversing connections.
OK Brendan,
Sorry about wandering into DC. I just thought I would point it out as an option because it would save you some money. Personally, I much favour DCC too, especially with sound.
Rick (rallison) did a pretty good job of answering your questions so I won't repeat what he said.
As far as which system, I would point out that the NCE Powercab has received the most votes so far, and:
- NCE products almost never receive criticism and almost never fail. I can't remember the last time I saw a post where an NCE system had quit outright and couldn't be easily reset. Even controller resets are rare.
- Digitrax has tons of advocates too, but there are occassional comments about problems with their systems. To be fair, those problems are mostly confined to very complex setups.
- Those who have switched from Digitrax to NCE frequently state that they wished they had done so sooner.
- The NCE Powercab system is less money than the Zephyr, as are the extra throttles.
- The Powercab will do everything you need.
- If you want a second throttle, all you need to buy is the throttle. If you want a third throttle, all you have to buy is the throttle, a cable, and a UTP panel.
(I feel like I'm starting to lecture you. That is not my intent!).
As far as programming, I do my programming on a test track on my workbench. For the few times that you will need to do programming (mostly locomotive address changes) you can take the Powercab from the layout to the workbench. Using your yard as a programming track is fine but you have to pay attention to where the other locomotive(s) is for some programming. It (they) can't be in the yard too.
Again, I apologise for adding to the confusion. Please keep asking questions!
Also, if I can comment, the people who are responding to your threads have your best interests in mind. Nobody is trying to dismiss your concerns or avoid your questions. There have been a few nasty guys on the forums (fewer recently thank goodness) but none of them are involved in your threads, at least so far.
This is for everyone. What manufacturers do you recommend for ho diesel engines and ho steam engines that are dcc ready?
Brendan BuschiI have a single reversing switches for the reverse sections and they work fine. How would you recommend automating the polarity switching?
that's exactly what an auto-reverser is.
They typically use a DPDT relay wired as a reversing switch. They also control power to the reversing section and have a circuit to detect excessive current - a short due to a metal wheel or path between the (+) and (-) rails and, simply said, they toggle the relay when they detect a short.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Hey Rick, that was great. I followed it.
I was able to bring the locomotive in today. They were open. They are always very nice to me.
When you sent your locomotives to MTH what was the average turn around time?
Hey Cuyama, thanks for the comments. Two questions for you:
1. Would there be an issue with a star bus if all the feeds were the same lenght?
2. What component would you use to automate the polarity reversing in a DCC reversing loop?
Hey Greg, I have a single reversing switches for the reverse sections and they work fine. How would you recommend automating the polarity switching?
Hey Mel, I'm very sorry for your loses. I can't imagine what it is like for you.
Eli is lucky to have someone to work with him on a project like that.
When I was Mathew's age most everything took a back seat to girls.
Take care,
Brendan
Brendan, I'm going to interleave my suggestions/answers:
Brendan Buschi [...] 1. What DCC controller should I get? Rick recommended the NCE PowerCab. You did too Dave. Ulrich recommended the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra. 1A. Do I need to get anything additional with either the NCE PowerCab or a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra - like a pwere supply? If so what?
1. What DCC controller should I get? Rick recommended the NCE PowerCab. You did too Dave. Ulrich recommended the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra.
1A. Do I need to get anything additional with either the NCE PowerCab or a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra - like a pwere supply? If so what?
Like you, I started with DCS and the DCS Commander. When I switched to DCC, I looked at both the PowerCab and Zephyr Xtra. I chose (and recommend) the NCE PowerCab because the input interface was, to me, more intuitive than the Zephyr Xtra. You may find just the opposite, as it is a highly subjective thing. But an intuitive interface is really important for a couple of reasons -- first, because you want it to be relatively easy to set up your trains (and potentially, accessories); second, because at some point you'll have two trains on a collison course, and you'll want to stop them without having to figure our a sequence of buttons; and, especially, as you grandkids grow and learn to do more than just make the trains run, you want it to be usable by pre-teens and teens. Though, heaven knows these days they're better than we are at technology.
The basic PowerCab set includes a nice manual, the controller/handset, handset connector cord, the power panel, crews to mount the panel, the 2-Amp 'wall-wart' power supply, and an extra coiled cord to be used with an (optional) remote throttle.
Given that you already have your power distribution sorted out, there's nothing else you NEED to buy unless you choose to get one or more extra throttles and/or extra plug-in panels (NCE calls them UTP Panels) that you could choose to place at various points around the layout, if the cords don't reach. (On a layout the size of yours, I would recommend at least one plug in panel on each main side. OR replace the 6-wire connector cord that comes with the handset with a longer 6-wire cord.)
The other option is a programming booster. The way NCE works, if you want to use a programming track (like your yard) you'll need it. More about that below.
BY THE WAY--you should be able to get (gross) $170 or more for your DCS Commander and Z-1000 if you auction it off/sell it, assuming the dealier won't take it in trade for whichever system you switch to...
Brendan Buschi 2. Aside from buying a DCC controller, what else, if anything, do I have to do electrically to the layout? For instance, if I went with either the 2A. I have numerous track feeders that are configured in a star bus pattern. Is it okay to use a star bus with DCC? 2B. My yard is totally isolated electrically from the rest of the layout as are the reversing loops. Am I right in assuming I can use the yard as a programming track?
2. Aside from buying a DCC controller, what else, if anything, do I have to do electrically to the layout? For instance, if I went with either the
2A. I have numerous track feeders that are configured in a star bus pattern. Is it okay to use a star bus with DCC?
2B. My yard is totally isolated electrically from the rest of the layout as are the reversing loops. Am I right in assuming I can use the yard as a programming track?
The NCE PowerCab controller/handset has short protection/overload protector built in, and it resets itself, so technically you don't need anything else. You should probably add separate 1-Amp or 2-Amp 'quick-blow' fuses to each separate circuit (assuming you have each track loop isolated from the others) so that, if something derails or a grandkid sets down something conductive (A coin? A metal ruler? Who knows, but it'll be something!) on the track, and the NCE handset doesn't reset fast enough, only the affected track will lose power...
It's my understanding that a bus is the preferred schema for DCC, but in a layout as small as yours with soldered joiners, I think you're good to go.
Now, about that programming track: You can sort of use the yard as a programming track, as long as you only have ONE DCC equipped item (loco, in your case) on the yard track. There are several ways to do it. The easy way is to have a TPTT switch installed to route power to either the mains, the yard, or both. When programming, set the switch so only the yard is powered.
But one of the cool things about the PowerCab is the ability to program on the main track--even while the selected loco is moving. About the only things you can't do in that mode are read the current value of the configuration variable (CV), and (maybe, I don't recall as I don't use this feature) load a speed table (a whole bunch of values at once, to control the acceleration rate, if I may oversimplify.) So for most of what I imagine you want to do--program the long address (he number on the side of the engine, to make controlling it easier) and, once you get some non-MTH engines, changing sound, lighting, and/or operational parameters--you really don't need a programming track. NOTE: To change the locomotive address (number) it MUST be the only loco on the track.
If you do want to go the special programming track route, and you do choose the PowerCab, you may want to buy the "Auto SW" module and connect it to a short, specific section of track that is ONLY used for programming; when you select the option on the handset to program on a program track, it will automatically cut power to the main tracks and put power on the programming track section. In that scenario, however, when you're done programming the power is cut to the programming track section and switched back to the main, so your whole yard would be dead if you use it as the programming track.
Brendan Buschi 3. Is there a simple circuit breaker I can put in between my track power supplier and the track? Right now there is one set of wires going to a terminal strip from the DCS Commander. All the track feed go out from that terminal strip. Please be specific. I admit it. I said there would be 3 questions and I added a 1A, a 2A and a 2B. Now I am blatantly sneaking in another. 3. If I want to add just one more engine controller to a DCC setup, what do I need to get? Specifically, can I just get something in addition to either a NCE PowerCab or a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra? If so, what?
3. Is there a simple circuit breaker I can put in between my track power supplier and the track? Right now there is one set of wires going to a terminal strip from the DCS Commander. All the track feed go out from that terminal strip. Please be specific.
I admit it. I said there would be 3 questions and I added a 1A, a 2A and a 2B. Now I am blatantly sneaking in another.
3. If I want to add just one more engine controller to a DCC setup, what do I need to get? Specifically, can I just get something in addition to either a NCE PowerCab or a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra? If so, what?
See above re: quick-blow fuses. A circuit breaker (or one for each main track) is even better, but it has to be quick-acting. The one in the NCE handset is FAST, but it will cut power to your whole layout.
To add a second throttle, just buy one. They're not cheap, but they are perfect for your grandkids--they control speed, bell, horn, and maybe lights. There's already an open port on your NCE power panel, and a coiled cord included. CAB04P uses a potentiometer for throttle control, 04E uses an encoder; there's even a buttons-only version)
To add a third, just buy another throttle and one or more of the UTPs -- the only additional wiring (besides the cord that connect the throttle to a UTP) is a 6-wire cable from the original power panel to the UTP. Adding a second UTP? Just daisy-chain them. Easy expansion.
Brendan Buschi If you want to make an old man happy please answer these questions. I would love to hear from as many people as possible. [...]
If you want to make an old man happy please answer these questions. I would love to hear from as many people as possible.
I may have made you more confused, rather than happy, but I did try. ;-)
Because of the way MTH chose to implement features, most MTH engines will have less functionality on DCC than DCS. Most of the difference is in the "add-on" kinds of functions like sounds, lights, and smoke, for example.
Your existing star-wired scheme may work with DCC as-is, but there is a chance you may need some revisions. DCC is typically wired as a bus, not a star, but this has the most impact with larger layouts. One issue is whether the DCC system can detect a short quickly enough.
As folks have noted in your other threads, auto-reversing is a snap in DCC and is one of the main reasons many folks choose it.
Brendan BuschiI've never seen anything that leads me to believe I can control 2 locomotives seperately on the same DC wired block.
yes. only one throttle can be connected to the block. But a block could be split in into multiple blocks allowing separate control. As I said, hard for me to predict. (I haven't read the whole thread - do understand cab control)?
Brendan BuschiI am all ears on how you would wire the reversing loop.
this is the preferred way to wire a DC reverse loop using separate reversing switches for each throttle for both the mainline and reverse section (4 switches for 2 throttles).
Brendan BuschiI am all ears on how you would wire the reversing loop. I use a manual switch to reverse the polarity inside the loop. With DCS automating the reversing loop seems more complicated and risky than with DCC.
With DCC, you could use a single reversing switch for the reverse-section but most people prefer an auto-reverser because it is simpler not complicated or risky.
Brendan BuschiI was afraid that if I got it wrong I'd short out the engine.
the metal wheels of the engine create a short between the rails of (+) and (-) supplies. You could damage the throttle, not the engine. But many throttles have current protection and shutdown when excessive current is drawn.
Brendan Buschi From what I have seen and read I also believe you are trying to be a good parent. It is hard competing with a world with so many alluring distractions. If I can help my grandkids focus and learn and value work and effort and respect and appreciate life, I will consider myself to be doing a good job as a grandfather. I like to see them laugh too.
From what I have seen and read I also believe you are trying to be a good parent. It is hard competing with a world with so many alluring distractions. If I can help my grandkids focus and learn and value work and effort and respect and appreciate life, I will consider myself to be doing a good job as a grandfather. I like to see them laugh too.
Hey Greg, I probably used the wrong terminology. In point 3 I was saying that if you have the layout divided into blocks which I referred to as electrically isolated zones and if you are running DC, then if you have 2 locomotives on the same block at the same time you cannot control them seperately. I believe you can do that with DCC or DCS. I've never seen anything that leads me to believe I can control 2 locomotives seperately on the same DC wired block.
I should have omitted the sentence you underlined.
Basically I was telling Rich that I do not believe I can do what I have said I wanted to do with the layout using DC. He seems to think I can. If I'm wrong about that I was asking him to explain how I can. He hasn't.
I am all ears on how you would wire the reversing loop. I use a manual switch to reverse the polarity inside the loop. With DCS automating the reversing loop seems more complicated and risky than with DCC. I was afraid that if I got it wrong I'd short out the engine.
I have no idea what knocked out my engine. It was not going through a reversing loop and it was running on straight track. I believe it may have been going over a turnout, but it had been doing it fine for a few laps. I was just sitting there watching it.
Thanks.
Brendan Buschi2. I cannot control 2 locomotives on the same electrical circuit separately with DC. I plan on having 2 locomotives on the track at times. 3. I believe in DC you create electrically isolated zones if you want to run multiple locomotives. I have not done that and don't want to. Doing so would be a lot more work and I don't think it's necessary if I try DCC. Doing so would not address what I raised in #2.
3. I believe in DC you create electrically isolated zones if you want to run multiple locomotives. I have not done that and don't want to. Doing so would be a lot more work and I don't think it's necessary if I try DCC. Doing so would not address what I raised in #2.
I have a very small point-to-point layout and have just a couple locos. I chose DCC (NCE PowerCab) to avoid the hassle of wiring blocks, panel switches and trying to predict where they would be needed. I'm an electrical engineer (I'd rather build an auto-reverser).
i don't understand your last statement in (3) - doing what?. To control multiple locos either you need blocks and cab-control to switch the blocks between two throttles or something like DCC.
Maybe the NCE DCC Twin (user manual) plus a couple decoders would be a good option for you.
Thanks again Mel.
Your layout is a work of art and I can fully understand what you say when you say that people are drawn to it for that reason.
My world is all about light. I photograph fine art and make quality prints of it for the artists. I have seen so many paintings and photographs and I can tell you that light is what catches your attention. My ability to replicate it is also what either makes my work valuable to the artist or not. The subject matter is very important too, but it is the light that sets it off. The light in which it is viewed is equally important.
Odor and sound are also very important in terms of attracting or repelling people. I am drawn to the smells of restaurants and bakeries - particularly bakeries - when I am in their vicinity. I will also focus more on something that has a sound I find pleasing.
This blog has a lot of model railroaders. I always appreciate their work and the discipline involved. I also appreciate how they portray the world on their layouts. I tend to view the poeple here as three dimensional artists working with mixed, motorized media producing work that has a cross generational appeal.