This is the third discussion topic that I have started. The first had to do with DCS and reverse loops. The second had to do with addiction. This has to do with my daily progress on the construction of my HO layout.
First, I opted to use MTH locomotives and controlers.
Second, I am using Atlas snap track code 83.
I began by building a 4x8 table. I used 2x3 to frame the top and 2x4 for the legs. I use a 7/16 sheet for the top. Finally I applied a 1/8 sheet that is very smooth on top of the top. I then added a second 4x8 table. I then added a 14x18" extension between the two tables and the tables overlapped by 2 feet. I then added a 2x4 extension at the end of one of the tables. My table is 14 feet long by 10.5 feet wide. It has a 4x4 cutout on the top left corner.
I then got AnyRail software to plan the layout. This turned out to be a godsend. I am a printer and I have a printer that can use 24 inch continuous rolls of paper. I printed out my whole layout on 5 very long sheets of paper that I will afix to the top of my table before I start laying track.
I should mention that I knew nothing about HO before I started this. AnyRail is learned in minutes if you are comfortable with a computer. The blueprints are dead on accurate.
I did at least 1,000,000 on screen layouts before I settled on the one I will use.
I had to resolve the issue of designing a reverse loop using DCS equipment first. I decided to use a standard DC reverse loop and wire it so that the polarity on the loop track reversed when I manually activated a remote switch. I don't advise totally automating reverse loops with DCS.
I also experimented with some actual track to design a double track crossover. I will have 2 of these and 2 reverse loops in my layout.
Each double track crossover uses 2 Atlas 563 and 564 Custom Line turnouts, 1 atlas 572 crossing and 2 524-2 tracks. They also use 2 584 and 2 585 remote switch machines. It only took me 1,000 hours to figure out how to attach the remote switch machines to the turnouts. The directions on the back of the packages were mostly useless.
I am using a DCS Commander to power the track. I am using a separte ac power supply to power the switches and other ac accessories.
I used a multimeter to help me understand track polarity and reverse polarity. I will be wiring small leds to track sections so I have a graphic representation of each section's polarity.
I cut a 3x18" manhole in the center of my table and got a mechnaics dolly so I can roll around under the table on my back. I am using a star configuration for my track power supplies with 16 gauge wire. I am using 20 gauge wire for my switches.
Stay tuned. Comments and suggestions are most welcomed. Please spare me any and all debates on DC vs DCC vs DCS.
Post deleted
Bear "It's all about having fun."
As was established in one of the Original Poster's other threads, he is using DCS, not DCC. Return loops are handled much differently, not in the automated fashion of DCC.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Then I blew it and I will delete my post
It was quoted and still visible in the other guys post.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
So I printed out the entire layout and took it down to the table and put the five 14 foot long by 2 foot wide sheets together and it was something to see. I could have left it like that and called it art. It was impressive. I'm think ing you could do wall murals like this.
Then I noticed that on one side of the table the track was going to be very close to the edge. I had planned for 3 inches from each edge and this was only 1 inch. Then I discovered that the 18" x 14 expansion that I put between the two 8x10 tables was actually 16"x14.
Thankfully at that side of the layout there are 3 loop sections. They could each be reduced in length equally and the problem would be solved. I took 3" from each segment's straight track and the problem was solved with an extra inch for good measure.
The sheets I printed all have a 3"x3" grid on them. I just cut along one of the grid lines the entire 14 foot length of that section and slid the section over the next adjacent section to the next grid line on that section.
Translated, I could have really botched the entire project before I even started laying track because I "forgot" that my table extension was 16" wide not 18". All I can say is I'm 70 years old.
Anyway I started laying track and it is coming along. Once I have it all layed out on top of the paper I will remove the paper and fasten the track to the table. I'm planning on using a foam roadbed.
The AnyRail software is incredible. Aside from printing out the entire design at whatever scale I want, I can also print out a detailed information sheet that has a list of all the track parts and total lenghts of all track segments.
So assuming I remember how to find my way to the basement I will have more to report next time. There was a time that I could keep numbers in my head without a problem. Now I need to write everything down. I keep learning this over and over. Maybe I'll get a clipboard.
I assembled one of the reverse loops. In the process I learned that physically making a loop is a challenge.
I use a turnout. After you enter the turnout there is straight track. Then you begin a 3/4 circle that reverses it's direction on the last quarter and comes back into the turnout. I've done this but no matter how I do it, there is a slight misalignment of about an eight of an inch that can be compensated for with the circle segments. My circle is 44" in diameter so it has ample give.
So can someone tell me if there is a name for this kind of a loop and is there a perfect formula for aligning the track?
It's hard to know for certain what is happening without seeing your track plan.
Brendan BuschiThen you begin a 3/4 circle that reverses it's direction on the last quarter and comes back into the turnout.
If you have connected a right-hand curved section directly to a left-hand curved section (or vice-versa), this creates an s-curve that can be unreliable. 22" radius curves are a bit tight for some equipment and the S-curve can create problems. Some combinations of different equipment might not run through without derailing.
The best solution is a straight track of at least the longest car or engine length between curves in the opposite direction. This might require a redesign, of course.
Or I may just not be understanding your description.
Brendan BuschiI've done this but no matter how I do it, there is a slight misalignment of about an eight of an inch that can be compensated for with the circle segments.
That's not atypical for sectional track and is the reason many modelers use flextrack. Alignments vary with different choices for curve radius and turnout.
Good luck with your layout.
Thanks. You clearly understood what I was saying. I am surprised that I could not find a simple resource for what segments to get for a loop like the one I did. The same applied when it came to the double track crossover, but on that everything appears to be dead on.
Brendan BuschiI am surprised that I could not find a simple resource for what segments to get for a loop like the one I did.
That's probably because it varies so much with different combinations of turnouts and curve radii. Atlas numbered turnouts don't match up exactly with sectional curves in many cases. (Snap-Switches do, but they have such sharp internal curves through the frog that they limit the kinds of equipment that may be used.)
If this is your first time to design a larger layout, it might be a good idea to post an image here for others to see before you lay track. Often CAD allows one to draw things that won't work well.
I have great pictures I can post, but I don't know how. Someone on another post offered advice and I guess I should read that and try. I think I need to have some kind of hosting service where I could upload the picture and then link to it. Problem is I don't have any service like that.
Here's a link to my layout:
http://www.buschiart.com/TrainLayout.html
Brendan,
I hate to be a party pooper, but I looked at your layout plan and I don´t think it is a good idea to build the layout as you have planned it. You are not going to be happy with it - unless you just want to have a couple of trains circle the layout (for which you don´t need a digital command system), which gets rather boring in a very short time.
Furthermore, you will encounter tremendous reach problems, even with that man hole right in the middle of it.
Here is your plan:
Before you start to invest big money, do yourself a favor and do some reading - there are plenty of books for beginners around that will help you make a good start!
You are correct if this were for me. I am building this with my grandchildren. Two twin boys age 4 and a girl age 6. The idea is to teach them how to get from one place to another. They need to learn how to operate switches. When they have that down I'll put a second locomotive on the layout and they will have to learn how to coordinate with that in the mix. They also are learning how to connect track and wire it.
We will do things slowly and incrementally. We will also be building different structures out of cardboard and other things to decorate the set. We can change that as the seasons change.
When they get older if they are interested in pursuing this then we can design something more to their interests and likes. The entire layout can be easily taken apart and redesigned at will. I wanted the reversing loops because it will add a level of difficulty and make it less boring.
This is all about learning, taking responsibility and pride in accomplishment for them. If they learn this as I think they will they will be doing something far more constructive than otherwise.
I started them out on a large G Scale setup. They loved it and it was basically just a figure 8. They could start and stop the train and reverse direction. We would stop at places and put figures in the cars and take others out. We had an engineer, a conductor and a station man.
Different strokes for different folks - especially small folks. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk.
Sorry - I thought this was going to be a layout for yourself! Even so, the reach issue remains....
No apology needed. You were right.
Before I cut the manhole out there was definately a problem. With this design I can get to anything without a problem. There is a bit of a stretch for the one reverse loop. In the future we can cut in other manholes as needed.
The only reason this got to be the size it did was because I wanted 2 reverse loops.
Brendon,
The basic level of most of the questions you've been asking indicates that you should be accepting more of the advice offered than you reject, but in any case you really need to heed this piece:
cuyamaThe best solution is a straight track of at least the longest car or engine length between curves in the opposite direction.
Both of your reverse loops have S-curves that will very likely cause derailments. It is made even worse by the fact that the S-curves are out of reach. Those grandkids are going to lose interest quickly if their trains keep falling off the track where they can't reach them.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
I wasn't aware I had rejected any advice. The S-curves may indeed be a problem and I will only find that out once I test them. If they are then I will replace that segment of track with flex track so I can get a more gradual turn.
I am doing this in stages. First I plan, then I test, then I make corrections as needed, then I test and so on.
The children will never be using the trains without me. I can definately reach the S-curves, but if that proves to be a problem, then I will cut in some more manholes.
I am working on the theory that if I design and test and build this properly derailments will not happen. I could be wrong about that. I'm not in any rush. I plan on dong this over the course of time with the children. This is about providing them with a creative and educational experience. Correcting mistakes over the design and testing stages is part of that experience. If when all is said and done they end up with confidence in themselves and pride in their accomplishments, then I will have succeeded.
I put the current manhole in after I got some advice on that from another model railroader. I settled on the reverse loop design after getting a lot of feedback from others on this forum. I am posting here because I want advice.
Funny. You say:
Brendan BuschiI wasn't aware I had rejected any advice.
Then you explain that you are rejecting advice.
Brendan BuschiI am working on the theory that if I design and test and build this properly derailments will not happen.
This is correct. But if you truly believe this why do you ignore a professional model railroad designer (cuyama) that is explaining proper design to you?
There is no need to test and learn everything for yourself the hard way. There is literally hundreds (maybe even thousands) of years of experience here on this forum willing to help you learn from their mistakes.
I have actually taken Cuyama's advice and have added a short piece of straight track to the s. If that doesn't do it, I will try the flex. Whether I take advice or not I will test everything. That's my way. If I don't test, I don't learn. I am not a robot. The idea here is to teach my grandchildren. You can learn a lot from a failure. There's something to be said for the journey. There's also something to be said for the fact that I don't personally know anybody here. I don't know who is telling me what. I just take it on good faith - its not dogma.
I hope that you can appreciate that folks are only trying to help you avoid problems that others have experienced. Understandably, you are invested in the concept and construction that you have worked on so far. Many modelers would have chosen a different arrangement of tracks and benchwork with those same goals and space to allow for easier access and perhaps broader curves.
Besides the reverse loops, it seems as if there might be a couple of other spots where there are potentially troublesome s-curves created by a right-hand curve feeding directly into a left-hand curve which you might wish to address.
On your design as-is, it’s important to note that the track center-to-track center spacing needs to be something like 2½” for the 22”/24” concentric curves, and perhaps a bit more for the 18”/22” concentric curves. This avoids side-swipes with different combinations of equipment. In the upper right-hand-corner and a few other spots, it appears that the tracks might be lying a bit closer together than that, but I didn’t scale it out precisely.
When you mention reworking the reverse loops with flextrack, I think that will help with the s-curves, but note that if you keep these in the same space that the radius could be significantly reduced, which might in turn make them unusable for some of your equipment.
The single “yard” track is intended to store a train, I gather. Note that trains must traverse at least part of the 18” radius green lap before reaching that track (perhaps even in a backing maneuver), so this may limit which pieces of equipment may use that track. If the yard is meant to accommodate any and all of the trains, a design which places it where it may be accessed from the broadest lap may give more flexibility in running trains.
The reverse loops take up a lot of real estate. Since you have large “oval” laps around the entire layout, an alternative to consider would be cut-off tracks that create reversing connections without the discrete reversing loops, as in the very simplified schematic view below.
When laying these out, just make sure that they are long enough to hold your longest train and they will work just like the discrete loops. Because of the way your laps curve around on the existing benchwork, it’s straightforward to see spots where this approach might be easily implemented for each direction.
I think that an approach like this, along with some overall rework, would allow your blue and green laps to have broader radii, perhaps ease some issues in reach by placing all turnouts closer to the edge of the benchwork, and possibly also allow your storage track(s) to be accessed from the most broadly curved lap.
This reversing approach could likely also be used with a new benchwork shape that would allow full walk-in access, if you wished to revisit that decision. It's not clear what the rest of the room looks like, but it's often very space-efficient to place one side of a walk-in layout footprint against a wall (this wouldn't work with the depth of the current benchwork, of course).
Whatever you choose, good luck with your layout.
Byron
Just a few thoughts on the OP´s intentions and plans.
If I were to build a layout for my grandchildren (which I unfortunately don´t have yet), I´d probably build an O gauge Lionel or MTH layout with a track plan allowing the kids to load/unload cars, assemble them into trains and take them from A to B - just like real railroads do. The stuff is much more rugged and forgiving to little hands ...
Brendan Buschi I should mention that I knew nothing about HO before I started this. AnyRail is learned in minutes if you are comfortable with a computer. The blueprints are dead on accurate. I did at least 1,000,000 on screen layouts before I settled on the one I will use. It only took me 1,000 hours to figure out how to attach the remote switch machines to the turnouts. The directions on the back of the packages were mostly useless. Stay tuned. Comments and suggestions are most welcomed. Please spare me any and all debates on DC vs DCC vs DCS. I am building this with my grandchildren. Two twin boys age 4 and a girl age 6. The idea is to teach them how to get from one place to another. They need to learn how to operate switches. When they have that down I'll put a second locomotive on the layout and they will have to learn how to coordinate with that in the mix. They also are learning how to connect track and wire it. I have actually taken Cuyama's advice and have added a short piece of straight track to the s. If that doesn't do it, I will try the flex. Whether I take advice or not I will test everything. That's my way. If I don't test, I don't learn. I am not a robot. The idea here is to teach my grandchildren. You can learn a lot from a failure. There's something to be said for the journey. There's also something to be said for the fact that I don't personally know anybody here. I don't know who is telling me what. I just take it on good faith - its not dogma.
It only took me 1,000 hours to figure out how to attach the remote switch machines to the turnouts. The directions on the back of the packages were mostly useless.
I am building this with my grandchildren. Two twin boys age 4 and a girl age 6. The idea is to teach them how to get from one place to another. They need to learn how to operate switches. When they have that down I'll put a second locomotive on the layout and they will have to learn how to coordinate with that in the mix. They also are learning how to connect track and wire it.
Alton Junction
Byron I think I can modify my existing layout by using flex track to complete the reverse loops. This would mitigate the issue with the s-curves. I had actualy first experimented with designs similar to the ones you posted, although I did not think to incorporate flex track. I basically used the 2 loops I currently have in my configuration and used them in the configuration you've suggested. The problem was they took up more table space then I currently have and I did not want to add any more extensions to the table. My table is 14' long. I wish I could fit what you have on it, but I haven't found a way to do so.
My "yard" is indeed a place to store a train. It will have insulated rail joiners so a locomotive can be kept there and not be turned on or active unless I want it to be.
I cannot imagine my locomotives pulling moe than a few cars. I cannot imagine having any long locomotives or cars.
At most I will have 3 locomotives. It is not necessary for all of them to be able to run on all of the track segments. If one locomotive can run on all of the tracks that will do it for me. I want the kids to be able to get a train from one track to another and reverse directions at will.
All the center to center rail distances are at least 3".
I can deal with the other s-curves much easier than I can with the s-curves on the reversing loops.
I want to teach the kids logic and coordination. There are a lot more things for them to learn here as well. I am not a prototypical model railroader. The trains will not be used by the children as toys.
If anybody is interested I can explain my intentions in more detail. I was just looking to share my experiences along the way and pick up some practical advice. Your advice about s-curves was all new to me and I will try to incorporate it.
Regardless of how I intend to use the trains, there are basic principles that apply. You mentioned the s-curves. I have talked with others about the electrical connections for reversing loops.
I've been at this for about a month now. I am 70 years old and have no prior experience with anything like this. It's all new to me. I'm learning as fast as I can. I am still in the design phase.
Rich you apparently are a literalist. I did not take 1,000 hours trying to figure out how to attach switch machines. It was more like 20 minutes. I also did not draw 1,000,000 on screen layouts. I was trying to convey 2 things. First: the instructions with the switch machines were poorly (hardly) written. Second: coming up with a layout design is not a simple process, there are lots of possibilities.
I value practical information. I would love to see simple instruction sheets on how to construct a revesing loop with a parts list for Atlas Code 83 snap track. I have not been able to find one. The same is true for a double track crossover. I have had to dope these out on my own. I was hoping to do what I want to without having to use flex track.
As a newcomer to all this I have been disappointed with the information that is readily available from some of the manufacturers.
As long as I am learning I am going about this just fine. I am learning.
I know how to post attachments, I am just not involved with any services (ie. photobucket) that would facilitate that. That's why I created a webpage and put a link to it in my post. I got some very specific advice from someone who apparently had no difficulty seeing my diagrams. I am also rapidly learning how to discern who is trying to be helpful and who is not - who is knowledgeable and who is not.
I have placed a modified track plan on the webpage I initially posted. It now shows both the original and the modified plans. Here is the link:
The modified plan now has flex track used in each of the reversing loops where there were s-curves. It also has a piece of flex track in the yard segment.
I think this will take care of the concerns raised about s-curves.
My new concern now is shapping the flex track. I saw a video with a "track tool" used to slowly shape the arc of flex track. I have not been able to find that tool in stock anywhere. Here is a link to the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmE0EiWPQHk
Brendan BuschiI would love to see simple instruction sheets on how to construct a revesing loop with a parts list for Atlas Code 83 snap track. I have not been able to find one. The same is true for a double track crossover.
The model railroad market, especially track and turnouts, is very "parts" oriented rather than being "solution" oriented as in style now in many other markets. Finding the instructions packaged with track or turnouts would be about like finding instructions with a 2X4 at home depot. They assume that if you didn't know what to do with it, you wouldn't be buying it.
I think another source of your frustration is that as a beginner you are trying to start at an advanced level. Most folks first layouts are built from a published plan, often in a book that includes step by step instructions and a complete bill of materials. Reverse loops and double crossovers are not features usually found on a first layout.
Even if you don't want start over with a more beginner level layout, consider picking up some of these books as they will explain the "101 level" information that you haven't had the opportunity to learn.
Brendan BuschiMy new concern now is shapping the flex track. I saw a video with a "track tool" used to slowly shape the arc of flex track. I have not been able to find that tool in stock anywhere.
The video link you posted is for Micro Engineering flex. I assume since you are using Atlas everything else, you won't be using ME flex. ME and Atlas are very different. The ME stays bent after you form a curve, the Atlas flexes back.
Here's a video of a guy laying Altas track. There is probably a better one, but this is the first one I found.
https://youtu.be/MyucN1tV0zY
Hi,
I've watched in the background as you all attempted to help the OP, and I sense the frustration and lack of success.
May I suggest that the OP pick up (Ebay is an excellent source) a few of the Kalmbach "help" books - HO Primer, Modeling for Realistic Operation, and so on.
These guides will walk you through the beginner stages and you will find them helpful for years to come. I've had mine for about 35-40 years and still glance at them once in awhile.
This hobby can be simple, but for the most part it can be pretty complicated. Start out slow, build a small simple layout or two to get your feet on the ground and gain the experience that will help you do better the next time around.
I've got 4 kids and had trains when they were young. For children under 10 or so, HO is just too small and I believe they just can't relate to them. Lionel O gauge is much more in line with what a young child can work with and IMO stay with for years to come.
Heck, I suspect most of us old timers started out with Lionel or Flyer or Marx, and then eventually "graduated" to HO or N. If it worked for us, it sure may work for those children you want to involve.
Just trying to help out here.........
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Carl425 thank you for pointing out the difference in the flex track, that was valuable. Did you intend to lists some books?
I have posted a revised plan that addresses the concerns raised as far as I can tell. If I've missed something please let me know. If there is something in my design that is a problem I would love to hear about it.
I looked for a book from Atlas that covered the topics I was interested in. I found some things, but I could not find everything I was interested in. There is a specific way to connect a remote switch machine. I found that out on my own. I would have appreciated a bit more in the way of instructions. Unlike Home Depot's 2x4s, Atlas' remote switch machines are meant to be connected to the turnouts in a specific way.
If Atlas had a book on some typical ways to assemble track for double track crossovers and reversing loops with parts lists I would have bought it. I would have found that useful. I imagine there are any number of simple constructions that could be diagrammed in a book like that. In other fields there are books like that.
I deleted my post. Never mind!
I was writing mine, while you made your last post on page 2, and after reading that, my post is no longer relavent.
Mike.
My You Tube