Hey BigDaddy, I agree about the "bite". I have no experience with the small bits and that's why I asked Rich about the one he uses. If it's slightly thinner than the nail it should do the trick. If it isn't I would guess you have to drill your pilot to a depth that is shorter than the nail.
I just finished an experiment with ATG tape on wood. It held the track phenominally. When I carefully pulled up the track the tape was left on the wood, the track was clean. If I used the tape on foam (which I intend to experiment with) I'm not sure what would happen if you pulled the track up.
I was so impressed with the tape on wood that I'm thinking of not using the foam at all. If I tape I will still use nails - just less.
I also experimented with soldering some track joints. I'm thinking of soldering the joints on curves.
Thanks Rich - that's what I suspected. I was wondering about ordering a thinner bit so I could drill right down and still get the needed grab/bite. I just posted about an experiment I did with ATG tape. Do you solder the track anywhere?
A .042" drill bit will be perfect for holding the nail in place. Just stop short of drilling the pilot hole deeper than the nail. You could wrap a thin strip of masking tape around the drill bit to indicate the desired depth. A thinner drill bit will likely result in bending the nail when you hammer it into plywood. Don't ask me how I know - - - LOL.
I use flextrack and I do solder the joints on curves. If you don't, you will get kinks in the rails.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks again Rich. What is the deal with the foam? Is it just for noise suppression?
Brendan Buschi Thanks again Rich. What is the deal with the foam? Is it just for noise suppression?
I've been finishing up my planning today. Tomorrow I start in earnest. I will be: clearing off the top of the table.; hand sanding it to get rid of any last irregularities I might have missed; coating it with a bare wood sealer; and taking a photo of it before I move on. I have also decided to build my last, grandest layout plan. That means I will be printing out another layout for the top of the table. I will photograph that too. I've decided to use the foam roadbed. It will be another day or two before I start putting down the roadbed. I have to order a few last items which include the drill bits Rich recommended. I'll take pictures of my progress. I'm not sure if anyone other than myself will be interested in seeing them, but I will post them. I would like to document this whole process.I will also be using the atg tape to put down the roadbed. Then I will nail the track to the table through the roadbed and solder the curved sections of the track.
Has anybody had any experience reattaching the metal railing on a locomotive? It is very fine and painted. I discovered one joint that came loose and was thinking of using a tiny dot of hot glue. My other thought is crazy glue.
Brendan:
By all means share your layout progress. It will be fun to see what the kids can create.
To re-attach the railing I recommend using Crazy Glue. In the forums it is commonly referred to as "CA" which stands for 'cyanoacrylate'. I don't recommend trying to use hot glue. It will be messy and hard to control and it won't likely flow into the joint which is what the CA does. For fine work like that most people suggest putting a dot of CA on a scrap piece of paper or plastic and then using a tooth pick to pick up a bit of glue and apply it to the joint. If you are using the thinner stuff you can actually put the handrail in place and the glue will flow into the joint. Trying to apply the CA direct from the tube or bottle will probably give you way more glue than you want or need and will result in a mess.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Thanks Dave. Of all the things I have ahead of me that was the most worrisome. The kids are actually pushing me to get the tracks down so they can start making things for the layout.
I'm also toying with the idea of painting the table top after I seal it. Is there any reason not to? Is there a particular kind of paint people use for this?
There are all new pictures and information on the web page I put up. Check it out:
http://www.buschiart.com/TrainLayout.html
Here is the latest layout. It is totally different. I will be posting pictures as I progress:
Hi Brendan:
I noticed a potential problem with your latest plan. You have added what appears to be an elevated loop on the left side. With the way the loop is currently configured the train will be trapped on the loop unless you reverse it all the way back to the main level. You may already be aware of that but I thought I'd point it out.
Cheers
Me again Brendan.
As far as painting the table top, something you might consider is painting some 'terrain' on it. Even though it will be flat, you can add a river or a lake or some roads to create some visual differences rather than have it all one colour.
I don't think the type of paint matters.
hon30critter Me again Brendan. As far as painting the table top, something you might consider is painting some 'terrain' on it. Even though it will be flat, you can add a river or a lake or some roads to create some visual differences rather than have it all one colour. I don't think the type of paint matters. Dave
Hey Dave, I knew about the backward exit from the loop and thought I had that covered. I was going to have a subway run between the 2 orange loops. However, I think the problem that might make me eliminate the smaller, elevated orange loop is the grade. I would need to grade the track between the 2 orange loops and it might be too steep. I'm going to experiment with this, but I think it would be about 4 percent the way it is now. Other than that I think I'm okay with the layout.
I modified the plan again and came up with a single orange loop with a 3 percent grade. That is what you are seeing now. The other design is gone.
Thanks Ulrich. I think the kids will be painting the top with something - probably planets.
This is the printout of my layout on top of the table. I'll be laying tracks tomorrow.
I've modified the layout. The latest version appears below. I took out the third double track crossover and seperated the remaining ones to avoid a possible s-curve. I also modified the Inner Main section (green) to get rid of an s-curve I missed. I will be adding the elevated section when I am done with this. It will not be connected by rail to the main layout and there will be no inclines. I made these modifications before I started laying track. When I put the layout printout on top of the table I noticed things that were potentially problems.
I have almost all of the track laid. I will post a picture when I'm done and before I install the elevated section. I have soldered all of the cruved track sections and may end up soldreing the straight track. The soldering went way faster than I thought it would. My biggest problem was seeing the joiners. I am going to get a magnifying headband.
I have decided not to install a roadbed, but I will install ballast. I painted the table a earth tone after I primed it. I have numerous additional track feeds to insure consistent power. I am just beginning the electrical, but I have to wait for a few parts I ordered.
I really got into the soldering. I think I'm catching the bug. The kids are coming next week so we will get into the layout structures in earnest. I am thinking of doing a King Kong on top of the Empire State Building and a few model biplanes that I can suspend from the ceiling. The kids will probably do the solar system.
Here are a few (controversial?) thoughts that have come to my mind:
1. I think there is a real bias against DCS among most model railroaders. I can't think of a good reason why that should be. Its just a different system. No one is required to use it and you can do anything you want to with it if you learn how. The glaring problem with it for HO is the terrible lack of information available. MTH is not doing much to fix that. If you are going to run in DCS mode, then you are limited to MTH locomotives. This is a definite problem for people who can't find what they are looking for among MTH's product offerings.
2. I think most of the serious model railroaders are into recreating specific tracks. That is fine and people have created some truly amazing layouts. I think another large number of model railroaders are into creating beautiful, lifelike scenes. That is also fine. I think there may be some resentment toward people like me - people who want to use the technology in a nonstandard way. The technology is actually the technology no matter how you adorn it. It's the adornment that has the potential of being nonstandard. So what?
I think model trains are beautiful. I love the detail and appreciate all efforts to make trains look as authentic as possible. The satisfacton and pride from building a layout are rewards in their own right. After that, it's all up for grabs. If you can't appreciate a model train that is running on a table with King Kong climbing the Empire State Building on it, then you are indeed getting old. The creativity and innovation that people bring to any endeavor make it richer.
Model trains are a wonderful learning tool. I've also seen them used in therapy. They are also a medium for creative expression and fun.
Brendan Buschi1. I think there is a real bias against DCS among most model railroaders. I can't think of a good reason why that should be. Its just a different system. No one is required to use it and you can do anything you want to with it if you learn how.
The main reasons are that DCS is proprietary, limited to MTH products, and does not handle reversing well (compared to DCC's transparent function with auto-reversers). For many of us, the scale, era, and types of locomotives we need will never come from MTH. DCC or DC open all manufacturer's offerings to our use. For most (not all) model railroaders, this is a huge issue. Not to mention that competing DCC products offer more for less money than DCS.
Brendan Buschi2. I think most of the serious model railroaders are into recreating specific tracks. That is fine and people have created some truly amazing layouts. I think another large number of model railroaders are into creating beautiful, lifelike scenes. That is also fine. I think there may be some resentment toward people like me - people who want to use the technology in a nonstandard way. The technology is actually the technology no matter how you adorn it. It's the adornment that has the potential of being nonstandard. So what?
Perhaps you are registering "resentment" where in fact folks are just trying to suggest alternatives that many others have found helpful.
In looking at the replies in your threads, it seems everyone was trying to be helpful*. I see no resentment or ill will, quite the contrary. Folks are only trying to help based on what they have seen from their own experience in the hobby, which is more substantial than yours at this point. You are welcome to act on their suggestions or not. The fact that they may not agree with you 100% is not resentment, but only different perspectives.
It seems to me that many have been generous with their time and knowledge. That too would not be a mark of resentment in my experience.
*Edit: OK, maybe with the exception of one post.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Cuyama there are a lot of friendly, helpful people here. I have not said otherwise. I was talking about "bias". I was also talking about my experience reading posts across this forum, not just on this thread.
Bias is not bad it is just a matter of preference. It could get bad if it was coupled with other behavior.
Resentment is another thing. Resentment and disagreement are totally different things. I like to agree to disagree, but I won't shy away from a debate.
If you have read my posts on this thread, you already know that I have been incorporating most of the suggestions I was given. This is especially true when it comes to s-curves. I have also asked for and gotten advice on any number of things from track nails to paint. I believe I have said thank you in all cases.
Since I started this thread to recount my experiences on building a layout from start to finish, I am posting my progress and commenting on things that occur to me - much like a diary. I don't remember anybody disagreeing with me.
Hi Brendan - Let me say your layout is quite impressive and I applaud your efforts. Like yourself I am starting my first layout and Cuyama has been very helpful to me with his suggestions. Good luck and keep us posted
Freelancing MCRR/NYC Northern Division - Angelo
Thank you Nickel Plate Road. The problem for me is what you see is not necessarily what you get. I just looked at the layout again and have decided to make one more modification. It appears below. I want to make sure I don't run into trouble with a possible s-curve on the left. I thought it was okay, but now I'm not sure. It's funny how this stuff just keeps creeping into my awareness.
I didn't know about s-curves until I posted here. Now I dream of them. I have to add a short table bridge to accomplish the new design, but that's not a big deal.
What equipment are you using?
Brendan BuschiI didn't know about s-curves until I posted here. Now I dream of them. I have to add a short table bridge to accomplish the new design, but that's not a big deal. What equipment are you using?
Hi Brendan - I model in H.O scale I had a small 4x8 when I lived in N.J/NYC. Now I am working on my big layout now it started out as a switching layout 10'x 3'and like the Blob it has taken over my half of the basement and grown into a two 8x4 with a 6'x27" bridge. My plan was to use the Michigan Central R.R Grayling yard/interchange with the Manistee & North East R.R section of the northern division, but having lived by the old Lehigh Valley and Erie R.R lines by Phillipsburg I wanted to use some of those track plans and industries. LONG story short this Sunday I will be reworking my bench work to fit a plan that gives me a tail chaser for passenger runs and a good freight line/sidings serving industires that where present in the early 1900's through 1950's - I am not a true purest about exact elements after all it's all about having fun? The wonderful part is that my beautiful Bride is and art major and can'T wait to help with the scenery. I like your lay out and see potential what are your "operational goals" for your layout? Have a great day, Brendan.
Regards Angelo
Hey Angelo - I'm doing this for the grandchildren. I want to introduce them to the trains and the various things that go into assembling a layout. I want them to learn how to start and stop a train. I want them to learn how to reverse a train. I want them to learn how to change tracks. I also want them to have a lot of fun decorating the layout with whatever strikes their fancy - they're all budding artists. If they get older and want to do something different, it'll all be there and they can do whatever they want. I hope to take them on a train tour one day and introduce them to some of the old locomotives. There are some tours within reasonable distances and then there is one that goes across Canada. I want to work up to that.
My wife is an artist. She has absolutely no interest in this except for the creative and educational opportunity it provides for the kids. She would have preferred if I had kept this to a 4x8 maximum.
The kids are crazy about the solar system right now so I imagine their first additions to the layout will be planets, moons and the sun.
I'm planning on 2 locomotives - diesel and a steam. I want them to learn about those.
Lately I'm planning on an elevated circuit that is not attached to the main layout. I want to use a subway train set for that. MTH is coming out with a model of the NYC subway trains. I am now planning to use them on the elevated circuit. Truth be told, I used to ride the subways in Brooklyn and Manhattan as a kid. I plan to get the earlier model subway from MTH. I say its for the kids, but its for me - nostalgia beckons. When I'm asked what I'm planning by putting a subway above the main layout, I ask, "Haven't you ever ridden the el?" Consistent with that is my fervent desire to put a model of the Empire State Building with King Kong on top and bi-planes circling above.
So I guess my operational goals are educational and creative opportuinty for the kids and a little zanniness for me.
I'm using DCS locomotives and a DCS controller. DCS is not all that popular on the forum, but it meets my needs.
I have learned a lot about model trains in the last few weeks. My first big challenge was reversing loops with DCS, but I got that resolved. I found 2 ways to automate it, but decided to do manual polarity reversing because it would give the kids one more thing to learn. I want to teach them about DC and AC and manually reversing polarity with a few leds showing what happened is a great aid.
I've made a table I can walk on. It kept growing and I had to just stop before it consumed the entire basement. I'm using AnyRail software for layout design. I would have been lost without it. I can't imagine doing any kind of involved layout without it. I have backed off from an incline. I have become an s-curve policeman. I have used flex track for the first time and soldered track for the first time. I've done a lot of electronic soldering and even plumbing soldering, so the soldering was not a bid deal. My eyesight - or lack thereof - is a big deal. I don't anticipate any problem with the electrical wiring. It is all pretty basic. When I bridged the gap on the left corner of the table yesterday, that was a big deal. It was a big deal because the table has grown and it was not supposed to - talk about the blob. Of course it was only done to eliminate a giant s-curve.
These trains are nothing like the trains I grew up with. We had Lionel around the Christmas tree. I had an American Flyer set when I was a kid. From about 10 to 70 I didn't touch a train. I can't imagine the kind of commitment it takes to replicate a real train line or a train yard. The closest I will come to anything like that is figuring out and building the scaffolding (?) for my el. I'm working on some designs now. The Empire State Building will be another challenge, but I can cheat on that. If you have King Kong and the solar system on your train table, an authentic looking el layout doesn't seem like it would be a high priority, but I want to try and make it look right in case anyone from Brooklyn should happen by.
Brendan BuschiThe Empire State Building will be another challenge, but I can cheat on that. If you have King Kong and the solar system on your train table, an authentic looking el layout doesn't seem like it would be a high priority, but I want to try and make it look right in case anyone from Brooklyn should happen by.
Hey Brenden - Carroll Gardens "F" train to Manhattan. I used to ride them end to end. There is a dealer I seen in the back of Model Railroader to get MTA style train cars, also I have seen H.O scale whimsey items such a large bugs etc. When my kids were young they did all sorts of crazy things to the layout and I admit I had fun watching them I still have some of the cars they painted. I rediscovered model railroading when I found the box they were in on my last move. I have 10 diesels various road names and 9 Steam locomotives and a boat load of rolling stock I am having fun building and weathering model homes and industries same goes for the rolling stock. A lot of trial and error and lots of help from the guys and gals on this forum!! I was going to wire my layout with DC and block wiring etc, Atlas has a good how to on DC wiring and so on, I decided to go with Digital Cab Control and bought a NCE beginner pack. Among all my other on going projects I now have to add the DCC chips to add my locomotives. Well dinners ready, gotta go, talk with you soon :-) Regards Angelo
Brendan,
I don´t think the folks in here are biased when it comes to MTH´s DCS. It´s a simple, economic reason. DCS is limited to locos made by MTH, which excludes the user from all those bargains you can enjoy when you go down the DCC route. While DCS locos can be operated with a DCC controller, a DCS controller cannot operate a DCC loco - it´s as simple as that. DCS is purely proprietary, which, in itself, is not bad at all, when you don´t plan on having any number of locos of "foreign" make on your layout.
It´s the same in my country with Marklin´s 3-rail AC system and their digital control system. Purely proprietary, but, as Marklin is by far the market leader, not as limiting as it is the case with MTH. Most mainstream manufacturers offer locos compatible to Marklin.
Hey Ulrich,
I understand and agree with everything you just said. It makes sense. It especially makes sense if you are planning on grander/larger layouts that are prototypical.
What doesn't make sense is any anger coming through when the topic is discussed or even mentioned. I have no problem with biases based upon factual criteria.
In my post I was just commenting on my observations of this forum.
On another thread I was amazed at some of the responses I got in regards to reversing loops. I was seeking help with how to do it using DCS. In that context it was not helpful hearing people bash DCS/MTH. It didn't help solve the problem.
I am amazed at how I find myself getting focused and refocused on different things as I progress. I had decided to use a foam roadbed. Then I decided not to use any roadbed. I am on the verge of hardwiring everything and last night I decided to use the foam roadbed again. So now I have to order that and that will take another day or so before it comes in.
The most interesting thing I have become aware of is just how much of an art form model railroading really is. I think most of the serious model railroaders are artists when you get right down to it. I'm not sure many of them would agree. There is so much opportunity for creativity and expression and it's everywhere. I'm looking at more layouts than ever. What people do is just incredible.
Brendan BuschiWhat people do is just incredible.
Brendan - you can say that again!
A Swiss friend of mine is building a layout based on the Ospizio Bernina station along the Bernina line in Switzerland. He is a master in creating scenery!
Take a look at the following picture and compare it with the prototype location!
Or take this one - a model or reality?
I am beginning to make plans for my maybe final layout - a Z gauge layout in a suitcase!
This is my plan so far:
The whole layout is only 2 by 4 ft.!
Beautiful work Ulrich.
I just finished applying Woodland Scenics foam roadbed for the first time. I did about 20% of my layout and have to wait for an order to come in to complete it.
The first curve I did was awkward, but then I came up with a method that made it a snap. I'm learning.
I'm also using the ATG tape to apply the roadbed to the table. If you haven't tried it, I strongly recommend it. It makes it so easy.
Things are progressing. The biggest news I have is about AnyRail software. I used it for my layout and it was great. Now I'm using it to cut my flex track and make templates for the curves on my roadbed. It will print out the centerlines. I can do that for a curve, cut on the centerline and have a perfect template for the roadbed because I cut the roadbed along its center when I do curves. I can print out each flex track section with sleepers instead of centerlines and have a perfect template for cutting the flex track.
I printed the entire layout with sleepers. That way I could just lay my track out on top of it. I've made seperate images for the curves because I need to cut them to the centerlines for the templates.
I hope what I just said makes sense. I'm new to all this so maybe you all know this already. If you don't and you are designing a layout I suggest you look into it. You can download a free version that is limited to 50(?) track segments to try it out.
I tried a few other programs. I couldn't get to first base with Atlas software and it was totally free. There was another free program that was nice, but it couldn't do what I'm doing with AnyRail. This was the best investment I've made to date.
In case I haven't mentioned it, I am a professional printer. I do fine art reproductions, so I have a printer that takes 24" roll paper. If I didn't this would be an entirely different story. You could print out an entire layout on 8x10 paper, but you would have too many sheets to line up and put together. I was able to do my entire layout with 5 long printouts. Lining them up was a snap.
I've seen people in videos do the centerlines with string and a pencil. I'm not sure I could do that and get the same results.
Brendan Buschi In case I haven't mentioned it, I am a professional printer. I do fine art reproductions, so I have a printer that takes 24" roll paper. If I didn't this would be an entirely different story. You could print out an entire layout on 8x10 paper, but you would have too many sheets to line up and put together. I was able to do my entire layout with 5 long printouts. Lining them up was a snap.
Hey Brendan, just to let you know, you don't need to print every page with AnyRail. I'm no professional printer and printed my entire "track" layout on 8x10 sheets and my layout is 20' by 40'. Basically I printed only where there was tracks.
Hey Hawkes, I have a flat table surface. It was easier to do what I did. I'm also new to all this and the less adjusting I have to do the better off I am. Do you use trackbed? If so, how to you position it. I've seen people in videos just lay it over the printout and then cut the paper away from the edges, but that leaves the paper under the trackbed. I wanted to remove the paper so I could use the ATG tape to secure the trackbed. When I nail the track down that further secures everything.
Do you have any pictures of your finished layout? The picture you posted looks interesting.