The Ambassador
For a number of years the top of the line passenger set appearing in Flyer Catalogs in Narrow Gauge was The Ambassador.
I was recently fortunate to snag a complete set on eBay, and believe me it is just as impressive in person as it is in the catalog illustrations.
In 1928 and 1929 it was headed up by the manual reverse 3117
In later catalog listings it had the remote-control reverse 3187. Some 3187s come with the 3117 metal plates.
The consist is made up of the 11 inch passenger cars (cataloged from 1928 to 1935).
The 3380 Club Car
The 3381 Pullman
And the 3382 Observation
The pieces of this set all match as far as color, and type of trucks and air tanks, so I am faily confident that it is an original set and from 1928 or 1929. I should look so good when I am 80 years old. The wheels on the 3117 are swollen but it still runs, even if it does look like a drunken sailor going down the tracks. Someone replaced one of the couplers on the Club Car which I will get around to replacing at some point.
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
skeptic49
to the forum and to the thread Jim,
It is an honor to have the publisher of Tinplate Times have his first post to the forums be to this thread. I have visited the Tinplate Times site many times, and have had some wonderful evenings of reading there. I've learned a great deal. If any of you reading this have not visited Tinplate Times and you like tinplate and prewar trains of any manufacturer, it is a must see site. Thanks for posting the picture with the 108 Switch Tower and the 2230/4230 Roadside Flashing Signal. I don't own either of them yet - but I have the collector gene so I keep looking. The Flashing signal is very difficult to find in original condition, the head rarely survives intact.
Thanks for posting, and don't be a stranger,
sanvtoman,
The Gilbert era of American Flyer has a charm and look all of its own. If you search for entries on here by Sturgeon-Phish you will find some great pictures of his S-gauge American Flyer trains. As far as the history of Flyer goes there is a fairly credible and short history of American Flyer on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Flyer This link should take you to the article. It discusses the prewar Chicago era of Flyer, the Gilbert years, and 1979 to the present. With the 980 series of cars you kept some of the most desireable cars for collectors. I must have about 300 pieces of S gauge Flyer from 1946 to 1957 - or at least until they went from the 3 digit to 5 digit numbering system. I made a decision in the effort to limit my collecting to not collect 5 digit items. For now the S gauge Flyer is boxed up, and the focus of my collecting efforts has been on pre-war o gauge. I'm hoping someone will start an S gauge thread soon.
Thanks for posting,
Very interesting thread, Greg! There are lots of great photos and a lot of information.
I found this discussion while doing some online research on AF. I collect prewar trains including AF Standard gauge trains and accessories. Here's a layout photo of mine that features a couple of my favorite AF accessories, the 108 Switch Signal Tower, and "The Monument" roadside flashing "Danger" signal, plus some AF street almps. This switch tower is a little unusual in that there is only one chimney centered on the roof. Usually there are two.
Some of my most favorite tinplate trains were made by American Flyer. Thanks for a really interesting thread on AF!
Jim Kelly
geeppe,
Its nice to hear from a fellow collector "across the pond". Its an honor to have you join us in the forum and to have your first post be to this thread. I hope that you do find some useful and entertaining information about tinplate here and American Flyer in particular. You will find that there are many friendly folks who are willing to share their knowledge with you. You will also find some interesting posts of tinplate in the Sunday postings. I hope you will visit often and ask questions, or better yet post some pictures of the items in your collection. I know very little about European trains, and I am always eager to learn. What items of O gauge Flyer do you have, and do you have any idea how they found their way to Scotland?
AND
sanvtoman.
Its great to have you join us on the thread too. I have a set of the All Aboard trains, mine is a 6 panel set, and a number of add on panels. These came late in Gilbert Flyer production and were a pretty interesting product. I've often thought that if they had been produced earlier they might have helped Flyer survive a little longer. I think that one of our other members, Sturgeon-Phish has some of these panels and might be able to post some photos. I'll try to locate my set and take a few pictures too. (Jim, I think you really do need to start a Gilbert Flyer thread)
Thanks for contributing.
Northwoods Flyer wrote:Thank you for all the kind comments about the thread. I started it because I enjoy American Flyer trains, and I look for any opportunity to read about them or see examples. In my opinion part of the enjoyment of collecting anything is to be able to share the collection, the information about the items, and the stories of how I aquired them.
Thank you for all the kind comments about the thread. I started it because I enjoy American Flyer trains, and I look for any opportunity to read about them or see examples. In my opinion part of the enjoyment of collecting anything is to be able to share the collection, the information about the items, and the stories of how I aquired them.
Good evening Northwoods Flyer, and everyone. Have just discovered this thread, and am slowly reading all 13 pages (so far!). What a wonderful thread - there is probably more pre war Flyer information here than has been seen in one place since Greenberg published their guides 20 or more years ago.
My own interets are mainly tinplate, which means mainly pre war, from Britain, Europe and, of course, the US. My Flyer collection is modest, 0 gauge only, with a few locos and freight cars, plus a very few passenger cars. I do enjoy running Flyer, although do find some of the mechanisms to be a little idiosyncratic. I'm slowly learning!
PreWar Enamel Box Cars
Flyer's production of these cars illustrates their willingness to carry a theme throughout the Wide and Narrow Gauge lines. They used a similiar design and color scheme for both lines on their box cars.
Here is the 4018 Wide Gauge Box car known as the Automobile car.
the 3208 Narrow Gauge 9 1/2" Box Car
and the 3015 Narrow Gauge 6 1/2" box car.
There are a number of variations of each of these cars, but I wanted to show the similarities between the lines.
All of my collection is made up of 8 wheel cars, however Flyer did produce some versions in the Narrow Gauge line that were 4 wheel cars.
Northwood Flyer
billbarman,
I can sure give it a try. If you want to post the number or a description of the car, or a picture if you have it, I can try to identify it further. If you don't have a picture of the item I can try to post one from my collection if I happen to have it, or I can try to find a picture of it. It may take me a while to do some research and figure out what the item is. Someone else might be able to identify it if I can't.
Nice! So if I posted some of the numbers do yuo think you would be able to identify them?
"No childhood should be without a train!"
I have not been able to detect a pattern for how Flyer stamped the numbers on the bottoms of their freight cars or their passenger cars. My observation is that the shorter freight cars tend to show up more often with the numbers stamped on the bottom. I have some 6 1/2" freight cars with 8 wheels that are stamped.
Hi billbarman,
None of the examples of the box car that I have are stamped on the bottom. In fact the only one that has a number on it is the first example that I show, and that is because it has the brass number tag. I don't know what the pattern is for Flyer stamping the numbers on the bottom of box cars, but I have seen examples shown on eBay where the number is stamped and sometimes the inspector number is stamped as well. I have also seen some for sale that have the patent date sticker on the bottom and even one that had the "how to oil" sticker. Some of the other types of freight cars (and some passenger cars) that I have do have the number rubber stamped on the bottom. Also, some of the box cars make use of the caboose frame with the hole stamped for the light fixture. I don't have an example of that one either.
3208 9 1/2 inch Enameled Box Cars
Back on page 10 I posted some pictures of a string of 9 1/2 inch box cars that were bringing supplies into Wausau Widgets. I promised to post some additional pictures and I am now finally getting around to it.
Flyer produced the 3208 box car from 1928 to 1938, and Gilbert continued to carry it into 1939 and 1940 but numbered as 408. The enameled cars were intended to replace the 3008 which was the lithographed version of the Box Car, of which mersenne6 has posted the variations available. The 3208 has a variety of colors on the body from light orange or cream to light yellow or tan. Greenburg's guide lists a total of 12 variations. When I have tried to identify my examples using the descriptions in the book I rarely can identify my versions. I think this is another example of being able to make a mini collection out of box cars alone. This comes from Flyer's willingness to use up old stock as they were making transitions to new catalog descriptions and not being too worried about quality control, or what collectors 75 years in the future might think.
Here are the 6 examples that I have to date.
I believe this is the earliest example of the enameled freights that I have. It has the older style of frame painted black, brass steps, type VII trucks, brass tags for number identification and "American Flyer Lines". It also has a peacock blue roof and door, very similar to the color used on the Wide Gauge stock car. It also has two brake wheels, but mine is missing the one on the left side even though the supports is still there.
This example shows a shift to a newer style of frame with the steps being integral to the frame, the door color and roof color are now actually a dark green and the identification tags have now switched to decals. It has the Type VIII trucks that followed the Type VII trucks.
The details on this 3208 are the same except for one major one. Can you see what it is?
If you guessed that it was the brake wheel being on different ends you are very observant.
This is a variation noted in the Greenburg book and comes from using old stock or stamping from old dies. The majority of the box cars were constructed with the side and right end stamped as one piece. The less common variation is with the side and left end stamped as one piece.
This version is similar to the variations listed above with the new frame, and Type VIII trucks, and decal identification tags, but it has a light green roof, and a dark green door. The light green roof matches the color used on some tank cars and other pieces in the 6 1/2" freight car line.
In 1938 Flyer introduces its sheet metal coupler - Type X, and Type XII truck. The color of the body becomes much more orange.
Gilbert takes over in 1939 and that year and 1940 it catalogs the box car as #408. It is still a dark orange and has Type XII trucks but now comes with the link and pin Type XI coupler. My example had the link and pin couplers but my father converted it to the new Gilbert knuckle couplers some time after they introduced them in 1957. He did this to a number of prewar cars that we owned.
This is the original box it came in so I am certain it is a 408.
These are the variations that I have to date and of course having a collector gene I am still looking for others. If you have additional variations please post them.
Street Lights - Addendum
Back on page 9 I posted a number of pictures of Flyer street lights. Since that posting I have come across another version of the 2110 that I did not have at the time. This is the version that has a rectangular base that is supposed to simulate grey concrete. It is missing a finial, although I am not sure that all of the streetlights had finials.
And a closeup of the base with the American Flyer Lines sticker.
Some of the other versions of the street lights produced and marketed by Flyer are back on page 9, but it isn't all of the versions that that they produced. The hunt continues.
Thanks for the detailed answer to my questions.
The date of 1939 for both new locomotives (4-6-4 and 4-8-4) means that Lionel were first with the Hudson in both 1:48 in 1937 and 1:76 in 1938.
The reception for the Lionel scale O Hudson, both 700E and 763, may have influenced the decision to go for nearer scale models, but the high price of the 700E and the large radius required might have influenced the choice of 3/16" scale by Gilbert.
As things turned out, the 700E Hudson was really a one-off, and Gilbert's models formed their standard range, and were a better investment in the long run. I would guess that the change to S scale may have been part of the plan from the beginning, in the same way as Lionel tried out OO scale from 1938.
It is interesting to consider what would have happened had Lionel concentrated on OO post WWII - it is possible that HO might not be the main scale today, and O may have been less important as well.
On the subject of the 4-8-4, I believe the AF 3/16" chassis was used for a PRR Electric similar to a GG1. There were two prototypes for this, the classes R1 (rigid) and DD2 (articulated), but I believe it was generally thought of as a GG1.
M636C
M636C wrote: Having thus summarised the history of the whole industry, my questions are:Were Lionel or American Flyer the first with these scale models? In particular, since both had scale NYC Hudsons, who produced the first Hudson?Is it possible that Lionel adopted the two scales either side of American Flyer's scale intentionally to remain distinct, rather than competing head on in the emerging scale model field?Was there a transition period with American Flyer producing the same models in both O and S gauges?M636C
Having thus summarised the history of the whole industry, my questions are:
Were Lionel or American Flyer the first with these scale models? In particular, since both had scale NYC Hudsons, who produced the first Hudson?
Is it possible that Lionel adopted the two scales either side of American Flyer's scale intentionally to remain distinct, rather than competing head on in the emerging scale model field?
Was there a transition period with American Flyer producing the same models in both O and S gauges?
I'm not very familiar with Lionel's production. My knowledge of Flyer comes from reading the resources out there and some personal observations. Let me quote some sections of the Greenberg Guide to American Flyer PreWar O Gauge by Alan R. Schuweiler.
From Chapter 4 - Electrically Powered Steam Locomotives
Pg 65
"American Flyer's production of O Gauge electrically powered steam locomotives began in 1918 with cast iron shells used for windup locomotives. These locomotives quickly gave way to electric-outline models. Steamers returned in 1930, again with shells from windups, and little conformity to scale. When this line ended 10 years later the models had die cast boilers, a reasonable approximation of scale, and a much greater degree of detail. Streamlined sheet metal locomotives completed the offerings of electrically powered steam locomotives. The 1930's represented a fascinating and productive period in the evolution of toy manufacturing. There were extraordinary developments in the toy train locomotive during these years, and this progress is especially apparent in the development of American Flyer steam locomotives....
The electrially powered steam engines appeared in American Flyer catalogs until 1924 and then returned in 1930, remaining in the product line until World War II. The year after A.C. Gilbert aquired American Flyer (1939) 3/16 inch scale were offered, and by 1941 these scale engines were the only electrically powered steam engines in the catalog."
A typical die cast engine from the Chicago Flyer era
Chapter 14 - 3/16 Locomotives and Rolling Stock
pg 216
"After the A.C. Gilbert Company of New Haven Connecticut, purchased the American Flyer Manufacturing Company in February of 1938, the new owners began phasing in an entirely new line of toy trains in a different scale from those that had been made by American Flyer in Chicago. The new trains were built to a scale of 3/16 inch to 1 foot, instead of 1/4 inch. But the first new trains were designed to run on existing O gauge tinplate track; after World War II, they were retooled to run on smaller two-rail track (S gauge) to match the new train scale.
The 1939 catalog included two new 3/16-inch locomotives, and seven die-cast freight cars, and two die-cast passenger cars. Apparently much of the new die work was done in 1938, so that the trains would be ready in the new year for the New York Toy Fair.
Gilbert issued annual catalogs from 1938 to 1942 (the 1942 catalog is the same as that for 1941....). By 1940 the new 3/16 trains dominated their offering. The 1941 catalog showed O gauge trains that were switched completely to 3/16 versions. It is not known how long or to what extent American Flyer was able to supply trains once material restrictions were imposed by World War II. While there is a 1942 catalog it seems reasonable that the 1942 sales were from previous years production.....
The 1945-1946 O gauge locomotives were not illustrated in a consumer catalog. However, collector reports have verified 1945 and 1946 sets - although availability appears to have been limited...."
That is lot of reading but my impression is that Lionel produced the first true scale hudson (isn't that in 1937?), since the transition to more scale trains did not occur for Flyer until Gilbert took over the company.
I think that Flyer was always the one to be in competition with Lionel, I doubt that Lionel followed Flyer's lead except in a very few instances.
It appears that for a very short time Gilbert marketed both O and S gauge trains after the war, but my assumption is that the O gauge trains were left over production from before the war, and that the intention of the company was to be more competitive with Lionel with their "realistic two rail track".
If anyone has other information or opinions please feel free to post them.
Northwoods Flyer wrote: 1939 Double HeaderIn 1939 American Flyer was now owned by the A.C. Gilbert Company. It was clear that Gilbert had a new direction in mind for the look of his company's trains. 1939 was still a transition year, so many old items from the days of Chicago production were still listed and available. One of the sets that has always intrigued me appeared on the cover of the 1939 catalog along with the symbol of the 1939 World's Fair.
1939 Double Header
In 1939 American Flyer was now owned by the A.C. Gilbert Company. It was clear that Gilbert had a new direction in mind for the look of his company's trains. 1939 was still a transition year, so many old items from the days of Chicago production were still listed and available. One of the sets that has always intrigued me appeared on the cover of the 1939 catalog along with the symbol of the 1939 World's Fair.
I thought (as a foreigner) I might ask some general questions, knowing very little about American Flyer generally. This thread has generally covered the pre-Gilbert products to date, with some references to pre (and post) WWII Gilbert era products.
The comments I have quoted above suggest that the semi scale products were Gilbert's preference and I'd like to draw some comparisons with Lionel (with which I am only slightly more familiar) who had adopted scale models about the same time.
To some extent both were exploiting the improvements in reproduction using die castings to meet a demand for more accurate models. What is of interest is that I assume that this catalogue cover shows how what were O-27 models in the form of the pre-Gilbert models led initially to 3/16" scale models on O gauge (the NYC Hudson, UP 4-8-4 and I guess the 0-8-0 just visible at the spine fold).
Meantime Lionel had produced the scale Hudson (and the PRR B6 switcher) to 1/4" scale, but hadn't produced a "full line" of scale O models, and had also produced the 1:76 OO Hudson (again never expanded to a full line, and not produced post WWII).
Post WWII Gilbert basically converted their whole line to S gauge while retaining the smaller scale bodies. Lionel produced both 1/4" and somewhat forshortened O-27 models.
3016 Sand Car - Addendum
There is another posting for the 3016 back on page 5. I have edited a picture into that post.
I just picked up another variation of the 3016. I have noticed that most of these sand cars/gondolas have a lot of play wear. They must have carried lots of loads of toys and stones around their previous owner's railroad empires.
This version has the American Flyer Lines decal, so I assume that it is from later in the years of production of the 6 1/2" enameled sand cars - 1930-1932 and 1934-1935.
And here is a comparison of the lettering and trucks used on the sand cars that I have up to this point.
I ought to be able to haul plenty of Tootsie Rolls around the Blueboard Central Division of American Flyer Lines in these.
to the thread M636C and Eriediamond,
I wondered the same thing M636C when I first investigated the catalog page for the set. It would seem to be a good idea to list the configuration for both engines, and in fact when you read the copy describing the set it does mention the two wheel configurations. I agree with Eriediamond that it is probably because the powering loco has the 2-4-2.
The type XX 2-4-4 is listed in only two other sets for that year and they are an entry level passenger and freight set, both coming in at a whopping $5.00, $7.50 if you want a transformer with it.
My suspicion is that Gilbert inherited a lot of the type XX engines with the purchase of the company and this was one way to clear them out quickly. I don't have the 1940 catalog, but by the 1941 catalog all evidence of the producion from the Chicago era is gone.
Thanks for posting the question.
M636C wrote: Without trying to sound stupid, the dummy "XX" locomotive is clearly a 2-4-4 rather than a 2-4-2, so why did the catalogue refer to "2-4-2"? Was there a particular reason that the powered and dummy locomotives were not similar except for the motor?M636C
Without trying to sound stupid, the dummy "XX" locomotive is clearly a 2-4-4 rather than a 2-4-2, so why did the catalogue refer to "2-4-2"? Was there a particular reason that the powered and dummy locomotives were not similar except for the motor?
Catalog reference to the 2-4-2 was because it was the powering lead loco of the set. As to why the "dummy" loco was different, I can only answer that Mr. Gilbert wanted it that way. I would offer this though, and it's just a wild guess. The powered loco is cast iron. It's weight provides traction. The dummy is tin, less weight and cheaper to make. As for the wheel configuration, refer to Mr. Gilbert. Ken
There at the top of the front page is a double headed train. The page inside the catalog featuring the set describes it as "Railroading's most impressive sight" and names it the "Mountain Red Ball 2-4-2 Double Header."
This is the only double headed set that Flyer produced during the prewar era. It consists of a powered 420 .
and a dummy type XX engine
It has always been one of my collecting goals to own and run this set. I have owned three of the four pieces that make up the motive power for a while and I was just recently able to obtain the unpowered type XX engine. It is the only really unique part of the set.
The set of engines is impressive when sitting on the track or speeding along the rails.
Both of the engines have headlights that function, with the dummy having its own set of pick ups.
The set makes use of the sheet metal knuckle couplers from 1938 to lash up the tender of the 420 and the dummy XX, the tender accompanying the dummy has the link and pin coupler that Gilbert was transitioning to in 1939.
The dummy XX has the "curley cue" coupler in the front and a frame with the motor removed, but it maintains the two pick ups to power the headlight.
I wonder what the old guys down at the coffee shop will have to say when these beauties make there way into town.
Wide Gauge Passenger Cars - II
14 inch Passenger Cars - Body Stlyes
During the years of production of Wide Gauge Trains Flyer used 5 (possibly 6) different body styles to produce a large assortment of trains. Each set of cars had unique characteristics and details that make collecting these cars fun and at times a challenge. The details changed from year to year and it can be difficult to find cars where all of the details match if you happen to collect them piecemeal instead of in an original intact set. The different details include: lithography vs enamel paint, style of door : swinging spring loaded, solid brass, or decal, flex trucks vs rigid trucks, style of roof, whether the roof slides on or has a locking cam device, type of air tank, and there are other detail differences
For now lets focus on the styles of the bodies.
I will be illustrating these body styles by using the first Wide Gauge passenger set Flyer produced and a top of the line later set called the Pocahontas.
Flyer called this body style its Mail/Baggage (1)
The Pocahontas had a Club car (2), which had both baggage and passenger areas
This is the Pullman (3)
For now just notice the similarities between this pullman and the pullman from the Pocahontas set
The Pocahontas had a Dining Car (4)
And of course last but not least, the Observation (5)
The Pocahontas also has an observation, but its windows are obviously very different, so this could be considered a seperate body type (6).
So the 5 body types are:
mail/baggage
club
pullman
dining
observation (2 styles)
From these body types Flyer made a large array of cars.
envfocus,
Congratulations on your aquisition! I don't know how to tell you this, but to quote an old potato chip commercial...No one can stop at just one. You may find that you want more Flyer items to add to your collection.
You do indeed have a #234 Suburban Station. It was cataloged by Flyer from 1933-1938. I posted the variations that I own on page 8. You have an uncataloged variation. Alan Schuweiler in the Greenberg guide to Wide Gauge identifies it as being uncataloged, and if you follow his listing it is the 234(B). There is no picture of it shown, but apparently the example that he used came in its original box and from that evidence he places the date of production in the mid to late '30's.
One of the caveats of collecting seems to be that you may not see an example of an item for a while and then suddenly there are multiples of it. I have noticed that on eBay. I had never seen an example of your 234 until recently on eBay, and then recently there have been 3 of them, and yours is now the 4th. Most of them went for pretty high prices. I think all of that economic stimulus money has found its way into buying trains. I don't have that variation yet, so I congratulate you with just a bit of an envious eye.
I do have a similar variation with the same red roof and green base, but a different station shack.
The 234 came in lighted and unlighted versions, with the light being placed in at least two locations.
The pictures above and below show the bulb sticking out through the end support.
Some versions have the bulb further back under the canopy, coming out of the shack.
And then some of the variations have no light at all. I would assume this was an economy measure.
This unlighted version does have the neat lithographed end piece.
The versions that I have came with bulbs, and they appear to be 18v. You will notice that one has a white bulb that is most typically used in streetlights.
You have a nice example of a typical small Flyer station. I'll be looking for an example for myself. I hope it leads you to add more Flyer to your collection and layout. Thanks for posting your find.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month