After reading mersenne6's last post I had to wander down to the #104 Kenilworth station and check into those soot belching steamers and spark showering electrics. I didn't have to wait very long before two of those thundering iron horses came by. What are the chances of a duel gauge meet right there at the station? Wow, tinplate railfanning doesn't get much better than this.
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Down by the American Flyer Station I
#96 and #104
We've spent time trackside counting freight cars, there've been so many steam engines through the previous pages of this thread that I'm sure your keyboard is covered in soot and your ceiling is scorched from all of the sparks from the pantographs sliding along the catenary wires as the electrics sailed past. With the exception of one brief pause at a few whistle stops awhile back (courtesy of Northwoods Flyer) we really haven't spent much time down at the depot so what's say we stroll down there and see what we can see in the way of American Flyer architecture?
Back in 1923 American Flyer decided it was time to give the Rug Central Magnate a depot that was something more than a whistle stop and something less than a big city main station.
Catalog Supplement
The result was #96, a respectable, all red brick station with a pleasing edifice, a smooth olive green painted roof and a matching all red brick chiminey.
#96 - 1923
In 1925 Flyer decided changes were in order so the all red brick litho became a variegated brick, they modified the litho window treatment, changed the length of the litho window shades, and the color of the door and window trim.
1925 Catalog Illustration
In 1925 they also introduced #104 which looked like #96 except it had an exterior electric light.
#96 - 1925
#104 - 1925
In 1927 Flyer published the prices of the #96 and #104. The price difference, courtesy of a single light bulb fixture was $1.35 - a fair amount of money for the day. The catalogs prior to 1927 illustrated both stations as having unbroken litho treatment. In 1927 the catalog illustrations indicated that the baggage door was now die cut and bent back.
#96 - 1927
#104 - 1927
In 1928 the stations received names and the roof changed from smooth sheet metal to embossed sheet metal. #96 was now Flossmoor and #104 was Kenilworth. Given the economic status of the two Chicago suburbs for which the stations were named the choice was appropriate - Kenilworth was a more upscale neighborhood.
In 1933 the catalogs illustrated the two stations as having a die cut and bent waiting room door, however, based on what I have seen I think this change in cut doors occurred before 1933. Along the way there were other small changes, the litho brick chimney changed from small to large and the embossing on the roof became less elaborate with the elimination of embossing around the region of the chimney. 6
#96 ca. 1933
#104 ca 1933 - small brick litho chimney
#104 ca. 1933 large brick litho chimney
In 1935 American Flyer completely changed the litho treatment for the two stations. The brick gave way to a clapboard and stucco look, the windows were punched out and frosted and, in the case of #104, the electric light was moved inside the station.
#96 - 1935
From the beginning it appears that Flyer tried to provide a color code for the two stations. More often than not #96 has some kind of a green roof and #104 has some kind of a red roof. The greens on the earlier version are more olive, followed by a dark green, followed by a medium green enamel. The #104 had, at first a more maroon colored roof followed by a dark red, followed by a lighter red ....and then with the advent of the last version in 1935 there was an explosion in the roof paint shop! Suddenly we had smooth enamel and crackle enamel. I've seen smooth enamels in green and red and crackle in green, orange, and red. The crackle roofs usually have a chimney attached that is painted the same crackle finish as the roof. As for the smooth enamels the chimney colors that I've seen include red, yellow, green, and orange.
#104 - ca. 1935-1939 - Crackle Orange Roof and Chimney.
#104 - 1935-1939 - Crackle Red Roof with Crackle Red Chimney
and now for an error....
If we take a close look at the front of the station above we note what appears to be a rivet in the bottom center of the front of the building. If we lift the roof we find the collectors daydream - a factory error. The litho sheet was fed into the die upside down so the tabs for the floor are on the ceiling (centered in the gray squares). To hold the front onto the base Flyer die punched a hole in the front and riveted a sheet metal "coffee dunkin' doughnut" (a thin metal washer with a tab - centered in the bottom gray square) to the inside so that the front could be tabbed to the base.
Sold as Shopworn
The station below has a red roof which would suggest, for the time period of construction (ca 1933), it should have had an exterior light. Other than this the station does not appear to be anything out of the ordinary.
However, if we look at the underside we find this rubber stamp
When I wrote this post back in 2008 (this is the 2021 upgrade )I not only didn't have this station but I had also not met Nationwide Lines (his first posts can be found around page 25 of this thread) who is a very knowledgable collector of pre-war American Flyer.
Based on his research and some articles which appeared in The Collector and the TTOS journal it looks like Flyer began selling "seconds" at the company store in Chicago around 1931. These "seconds" could be anything from an assembly error to something that had been refurbished at the factory. My guess is this station had been re-worked in some manner and was therefore not considered to be acceptable production product.
Well, so much for the ten cent tour. The limited is due in any minute so let's get out on the platform and watch her roll in.
Sheet metal steam engines.
In 1932 Flyer introduced electric steam engines with sheet metal and high pressure diecast superstructures. The first sheet metal engine was Champion Type XVIII (Greenberg).
It was illustrated in the 1932 catalog heading up set #941T - the Dictator.
The engine was offered in an 0-4-0 wheel arrangement as well as an uncataloged 2-4-2 wheel arrangement.
In 1933 Flyer offered No. 614 which was part of the 617 engine/tender combination (Greenberg Type XIX).
It was offered again in 1934 and 1935. The initial offering was a 2-4-2 wheel arrangement but it was also offered as a 2-4-0 and as an 0-4-0. The engine came with a number of different tenders and consists. One of the consists is pictured on page 5 of this thread.
In 1934 American Flyer introduced another type of sheet metal steam engine which would be the longest running of the sheet metal types. This was the Greenberg Type XX and it had a number of different treatments with respect to paint, trim, and wheel arrangements. The #4603 version of this engine from 1938 is pictured below.
Northwoods Flyer gave a thorough description of the engine and its variations on pp 5. so I will provide only the single picture as well as a picture of one of the sets which this engine headed - The Blue Streak.
The last of the sheet metal steamers is a small uncataloged 0-4-0 which is believed to have been made in the early to middle 1930's. It was not cataloged or numbered however in the Ameerican Flyer Electric Train Special announcement for 1936 it was shown heading up set #7467RT - Electric U.S. Fast mail train which was a consist of 4 wheel mail cars, a coach and an observation.
...and this where it gets interesting. Many years back I purchased the set shown below.
It came in a nondescript box with no markings. Given the time frame (well before the time of this original post) and my then general lack of knowledge about pre-war Flyer, my only interest was that it was a Flyer engine I had never seen. In light of the Fast Mail special in the 1936 pamphlet I have to wonder if this set wasn't supposed to be the freight equivalent of the Fast Mail. Since there is zero evidence of this, I'll just focus on the fact that it is a very interesting little set with no pedigree to speak of.
Streamlined Sheet Metal Steam
The rest of the sheet metal steam lineup were streamlined steamers. They were
The "Minniehaha" (Type XXII) #561
The PRR Streamliner #1686
The NYC streamliner #419
and the Sheetmetal Hiawatha
They were discussed and pictured on pp. 4 of this thread.
Steeple Cab Additions
I recently added another Steeple cab to the collection, thanks to eBay. I now have a 1270 to join the other examples. I have edited the information back on page 9 of this thread to include this engine with some additonal information, and some additional pictures.
1270
Cataloged in 1927
Thnks very much for the information on my dimly remembered AF set. The engine was a non-streamlined 4-4-2 and had neither smoke nor choo-choo, but did have the plug-in tether from the engine to the tender.
X2000
mersenne6,
I had a feeling that you would be able to identify spankybird's iron horse. That era is still a bit unfamiliar to me. We have all missed your expertise. I'm glad your abscence was nothing serious, and its good to have you back.
Now who has the next mystery equipment?
American
Flyer
Trains
Priceless
Spankybird,
The engine is a type XVII (Greenberg classification). It did not appear in any Flyer catalog (wholesale or retail) it is similar to the Champion casting (see the #915 in the above post on the last (cast) iron horse). The differences are as follows:
Windup has full air pump on left side and short and long air tank on right.
The electic version has a socket for a light bulb in the boiler front; the windup has solid front with a raised button in the center.
The electric version has a solid pilot with steps from running board to pilot deck; the windup has a more V shaped pilot with open slots in the pilot and reinforcing ribs from pilot deck to running board.
Based on your pictures I'd say this is your machine - no Flyer number known - construction early 1930's.
Northwoods, I'm sorry I haven't posted anything recently. I've been out of action for awhile (nothing serious). I'll try to see if I can get back to holding up my end of the picture offerings this weekend.
This thread never gets old. Thanks spankybird for the photos. And kudos again to Northwoods and mersenne for the continuing blast from the past.... pictures, description, and history irreplaceable.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
I am a person with a very active inner child. This is why my wife loves me so. Willoughby, Ohio - the home of the CP & E RR. OTTS Founder www.spankybird.shutterfly.com
x2000 wrote: Hi Everyone, My first electric train was an American Flyer 3-rail set given to me when I was 4 years old. I can't recall the numbers but it had a die-cast Atlantic with metal tender. There was a plug-in tether connecting the engine and tender. The cars included a white box car, a flat car with logs wrapped onto the body, and a caboose. All of the cars were metal with link couplers. Over the years, I have casually looked for this set at train shows but have never seen one.It was an entry level set with no features other than a headlight, but I sometimes think it would be fun to own it again! The train ran well with my Lionels. It was probably among the last of the pre-war sets before Gilbert introduced 2 rail track.Any information about the numbers of the rolling stock and where a set might be had would be appreciated.Thanks, X2000
Hi Everyone,
My first electric train was an American Flyer 3-rail set given to me when I was 4 years old. I can't recall the numbers but it had a die-cast Atlantic with metal tender. There was a plug-in tether connecting the engine and tender. The cars included a white box car, a flat car with logs wrapped onto the body, and a caboose. All of the cars were metal with link couplers. Over the years, I have casually looked for this set at train shows but have never seen one.
It was an entry level set with no features other than a headlight, but I sometimes think it would be fun to own it again! The train ran well with my Lionels. It was probably among the last of the pre-war sets before Gilbert introduced 2 rail track.
Any information about the numbers of the rolling stock and where a set might be had would be appreciated.
Thanks,
X2000,
and welcome to the thread.
I've done a little research and this is what I have come up with on the equipment that you remember. During the prewar era Flyer marketed new styles of O gauge trains from 1938, when Gilbert took over the company from Coleman, until 1942. During that time they marketed three Atlantics. I assume you are thinking of the engine with the 4-4-2 wheel arrangement.
In 1940 there was the 545 with a 421 tender, and the 553 which is a gunmetal grey Baltimore and Ohio streamlined bullet. You didn't mention remembering that the engine was streamlined so I am assuming it isn't that one.
In 1941 they marketed the 565. It had a tender that was lettered for the Reading and it had a chugger in the tender(some versions didn't have the chugger). It would have had the wire tether between the engine and the tender as you remember, where the 1940 engines would not have had that feature. I think you will find that the engine you remember was the 565. I don't have the 1941 catalog or I would post a picture for you.
The cars that you remember are the
478 box car, it is white and would have had a red roof and doors
482 log car
484 caboose
I don't own examples of these cars yet or I would post some pictures. Perhaps someone else does and will post the pictures.
If you check on eBay these cars show up quite frequently, sometimes you can even get them in their original boxes. In fact there is a set similar to this on eBay right now.
I hope this helps. Every boy should have the train from his youth. Good hunting.
spankybird wrote: Here a great find that has been donated to The Western Reserve Model Railroad Museum. It is a Diecast Clock work engine.We even have the track!
Here a great find that has been donated to The Western Reserve Model Railroad Museum. It is a Diecast Clock work engine.
We even have the track!
Hi Spankybird,
Thanks for posting the pictures of a great American Flyer donation to your museum. I am not very familiar with the engines from this era, but let me give it a shot as to what it might be. Your engine is a clockwork, which I have not been able to find. The boiler casting looks like an electric engine boiler casting used in 1932-1934 known as the 915. It was part of the Flyer lower priced Champion Line.
The tender looks like a #119 Type III tender. Does it have the number 119 on the back? If it has a hollow frame, it carred a battery to light the headlight in the engine. The tender was used from 1930 to 1932.
I am not entirely sure of the vintage of the cars but both versions are mentioned in the Schuweiler book, and I would guess they are circa 1927 or later.
I went to my catalogs and had the typical experience of becoming more confused, trying to find illustrations to match actual pieces.
These pictures are from the 1931 catalog, showing mechanical sets.
This illustration shows two of your cars, the baggage and the coach, the engine is similar but not quite right, the tender in the catalog looks to have a light on it. And look at all the fun accessories that came with the set.
This set shows a similar configuration of engine, tender(this time with no light) and two cars, but not the right color livery.
So, its American Flyer and its old. How's that for a specific identification!
That is the best I can do, maybe mersenne6 will have some additional information or ideas.
Thanks again for posting.
I noticed a few of you out there looking for prewar american flyer parts as well as i few posts mentioning our parts . Just to let you know I have moved and we have a new catolog available , my new address is :
Eric Trickel
541 north charlotte street
pottstown pa 19464
trickelcastparts@yahoo.com
Wide Gauge Electric Outline Locomotives II
New York Central Style Box Cab Electric
Flyer entered the Wide Gauge market with their first style of electric outline locomotives, the New York Central Style engines, in 1925. Eventually there would be nine different numbers used for the NYC style engines. This style was used to pull all three versions of the top of the line sets - "The President Special". The numbers for this style include 4000, 4019, 4039, 4667, 4677, 4678, 4686, 4687 and 4689.
Here are several examples
4000
1927
This engine has been restored in a black color. Its original color is a very dark green that looks black. There are original examples of black engines in this number.
This is a comparison of the size of Wide Gauge and Narrow Gauge or O gauge.
Perhaps a contrasting color would help.
4019
1925 - 1927
4039
1926
This is the locomotive used to head the first version of the President's Special
Mine is in very poor shape and a candidate for restoration one day.
4678
1928 - 1929
This version had the most brass accents of all the NYC style engines
It also had a unique ringing bell mechanism that rang an internal bell and moved a bell on the top of the engine.
It headed up the Hamiltonian Set shown on the top shelf in this picture.
Street Lights
Flyer marketed street lights as early as 1914. They cataloged street lights that could be used with either Wide or Narrow Gauge. Here are several examples.
2109
This Single-Arm Arc Light was marketed in 1926 and 1927.
2110
The Double Arm Lamp Post was also marketed in 1926 and 1927. It matches the color of the earliest President's Special.
In 1928 Flyer upgraded these styles of lamp posts by adding a brass colored finial to the top and changing colors. These stlyes appeared in that catalog until 1935 and went through several changes. (My aplogies for the poor framing of the picture. I cut the top off, but this version was without the finial anyway.)
2209 Single Arm Lamp Post
All green version - green base, post and lamp shield
medium blue base, turquoise shaft, medium blue lamp shield
2210
Double Arm Lamp Post
There are several versions
This version has lost its finial
Original Box
Notice the difference in the shades of orange used
And the difference in the colors of the lamp shields
And one final version in my collection
There is one version of the 2210 that has a simulated concrete base and the orange post and lamp shields that has eluded me up to this point.
Edit 06/12/2008
All good things come to those who wait. I finally came across an example of the 2110 with the simulated concrete base so I thought I would add it in here. There are a few more pictures of it up ahead on page 12.
Wide Gauge - Electric Outline Locomotives I
New Haven Style II
Here are two additional examples from the American Flyer roster of New Haven style locomotives.
4654
This engine number was cataloged from 1928-1931. It is basically a renumbered 4644 that is now painted orange.
Front view. The brass overlay on the front is one of the upgrades that Flyer did between 1927 and 1928.
My 4654 had its wheels replaced at some point. The replacements are solid brass that have been drilled to simulate spokes.
But for some reason only 3 of the wheels were replaced. Has onyone ever seen this kind of replacement wheels?
4684
This engine appeared in the catalogs from 1928 to 1931. It is very similar to the 4644 and the 4654 except that it has a remote control reversing unit instead of the manual version. It comes with green, red, or orange cabs.
During the years of production of Wide Gauge American Flyer had three different styles of Electric Outline Locomotives. They called these The New York Central Style Box Cab,The New Haven Stlye Box Cab, and The St. Paul Style Box Cab.
New Haven Style
The New Haven was the second style introduced, in 1927. The numbers for this style include 4643, 4644, 4644 R/C 4653, 4654, 4684, 4743, 4753.
I have several of these in my collection.
4644
This version has a grey frame
Front view
This is the version with a black frame, which is identical to the grey frame version except for the frame color.
And a red version with a grey frame.
All three of these examples have a manual reverse that is activated by a lever that extends through the roof of the engine cab.
Steeple Cabs (Addendum)
Here are a few additional photos from my collection to illustrate mersenne6's entry
1218
Side stamping
End Stamping
Headlight Placement
1201
This is a scaled down version of the 1218
End stamping
1217 this appeared in 1921
Side Stamping
3110
This is the version from 1928-1929
The 3110 had two oval metal plates on each side
My stable of steeple cabs
1201 1217 1218 3110
Notice the difference in the handrails on the 1218 and the 3110
And the back end of each engine
Here is a recent aquisiton to the collection of Steeple cabs. The 1270 was cataloged in 1927.
It has the same mounted in the body headlight and a bell. This one is abviously missing the bell, which I will be replacing.
The rear is also rubber stamped with the number.
The 1270 is basically a 1218 without its handrails, which you can see if you compare the two. side by side.
Edit 9/27/2008
We have a new addition to the stable of steeple cabs. This is a recently arrived 1218 in yellow. It has definitely been well loved and used. It runs like a well oiled machine and the headlight still operates, it is missing its bell. I think some cleaning will improve its appearance. I have more pictures of it ahead on page 17.
Steeple Cabs
The steeple-cab engine is probably the most common of the American Flyer O gauge electric trains. The engine in various configurations was produced from 1920-1931.
There are 3 basic types of construction
1. All sheet metal construction - that is both the superstructure and the chassis are stamped sheet metal.
2. Sheet metal superstructure and sheet metal chassis with cast iron pilots.
3. Sheet metal superstructure and extended chassis with cast iron pilots.
The numbers one can find on the sides either as a rubber stamp or as part of a brass plate are 1101, 1201, 1211, 1217, 1218, 1270, 3103 3110, 7010, and 7011.
The first of the series was 1218 and its poor cousin 1201. The difference between them was the matter of an operating headlight. 1218 had one and 1201 didn't. As with the cast iron 1226 discussed earlier the headlight was recessed into the front of the cab. Apparently, in an attempt to use up the 1201 superstructures American Flyer reworked some of the 1201's and added a headlight.
1218 and its variants (1201, 1211, 1217, 1270) is typically found painted black with rubber stamped identifying numbers. It can also be found in green, red, or yellow livery and with either a bell and a pantograph or just a bell. 1218 was last cataloged in 1926.
In 1928, along with all of the other train products, the steeple cab was given a facelift. The chassis and superstructure were the same but now all of the rubber stamping, as well as some aspect of the stamped details of the 1218, were changed. The door handrails became separate stamped brass attachments as did the journal box covers. Etched brass plates replaced the rubber stamped identification on the locomotive side. The new number was 3110
In 1930 the chassis of 3110 was changed to sheet metal sides and cast iron pilots. The new engine was given the identification number 3103.
3103
A comparison of the picture of 3103 with 1218 above highlights the different treatment of the handrails. The first handrail stampings stuck out like fins at either end of the cab body whereas the second version twisted the handrails as they pass the end of the cab nose.
#3103 made its debut in the American Flyer Catalog with the 1930 set The Clipper.
AF Set #1316
The Montgomery Wards catalog for 1929-30 illustrated two Flyer engines #7010 and #7011. 7010 is very similar to 1218 but it is painted green and has rubber stamped "Motor 7010" on the sides. #7011 was the upgraded 1218 superstructure (3110) but painted green with rubber stamped identification "Motor 7011" instead of etched brass plates.
Uncataloged versions
There is also an uncataloged version of the 3110 which looks like the #7011 except it has the #3110 superstructure and is all black. I've seen two examples of this engine. Once as part of a general collection of steeple cabs and once as part of a passenger set.
Wide Gauge - The Eagle II
This is the page from the 1928 catalog showing the Eagle with the 4644 and the cars with grey trucks.
On the same catalog page is listed an entry level freight set - The Trail Blazer
Here are the components of the Trail Blazer
It also used the 4644, but in red.
The 4017 Sand Car in Emerald Green
The 4011 Caboose in Ivory and Khaki
Billboard Reefers
Consider, if you will, the 4 reefers in the picture below:
Now, let's turn the cars around and look at their opposite sides.
Question: Which one of these cars is the rare variation (factory error) and which one of these cars is normal production?
Answer: Some people would say the Morris reefer in the lower left hand corner fits the description because it has mismatched sides but they would be wrong. In fact all four cars are normal production - there isn't a rare variation or factory error in the group.
The reason for pairing the two American Flyer Morris refrigerator cars with the two prototypically correct Atlas billboard reefers is to point out yet another case of a toy manufacturer incorporating elements of the prototype in the toys they produce. In this case we are looking at the sometimes prototype practice of different ads on either side of the same freight car (the Krey's is symmetrical and the Nuckoll's Packing isn't).
According to the Greenberg reference and an article in the TTOS journal the lithoed sides for the Morris cars were delivered to the assembly point in bulk and the factory worker would just reach into the supply of car sides, draw out two at random, and begin the assembly process. As a result you could have cars with either matched or mismatched sides.
Until Atlas began producing their series of scale 36' and 40' billboard reefers the fact of asymmetrical advertising on the sides of a billboard reefer was not widely known even among scale modelers. This, coupled with the general lack of knowledge concerning Flyer's assembly practice for these cars, has resulted in a lot of people thinking a Morris reefer with mismatched sides was either a rarity/factory error, a toy train flight of fancy or perhaps a little of both.
Not counting the Nationwide reefer (which does have symmetrical side litho) there are 6 different Morris ads (Supreme Marigold Oleomargarine, Hams & Bacon, Canned Goods & Specialties, Large Fancy Eggs, Full Cream Cheese and Fancy Creamery Butter).
This means if you are lucky/persistent you could have all six sides in a collection of 3 cars. Add the Nationwide and you could have it all in 4 cars. Of course, if you are a glutton for punishment, you could decide that to be a truly complete collection of Morris cars a person would need to have a collection of all possible side combinations. Including cars with matching sides and the Nationwide car this would require 22 cars.
Morris Side 1
Morris Side 2
Morris Side 3
Morris Side 4
Morris Side 5
Morris Side 6
Nation Wide Lines
The cars came with Type III and Type V frames, doors that were either painted or lithoed in five or six panels, and black, green, or orange roofs.
Wide Gauge - The Eagle
The Eagle first appeared in Flyer Catalogs in 1928. It continued to be cataloged until 1931. It is a nice entry level passenger set.
It is the green set on the lower shelf. The red set is the Hamiltonian
During the run from 1928 through 1931 it was made up of the same three units.
The 4644
The 4151 America Coach
The 4152 Pleasant View Observation
This is a comparison of the Wide Gauge and a Narrow Gauge (O gauge) observation, in case you are unfamiliar with the difference in size. It takes a lot of living room floor to run Wide Gauge trains.
really diggin the fire box glow!!
Scott
Steel Mogul (continued)
Thanks for the great analysis and pictures of the cast iron locomotives produced by American Flyer. It is very helpful and has already helped me in making some decisions about purchases.
In one of your earlier posts you showed a picture of the Steel Mogul set pulled by the 3198, and I followed up with pictures of some of the cars that I have and the catalog illustration from 1930. I have done a bit more work and have some pictures of the Steel Mogul set as cataloged from 1930 to 1934. I am missing the catalogs from 1935-1938 at this point. I know the Steel Mogul did not appear in the 1938 catalog, but I am not sure about the years '35,'36 and '37.
Update: mersenne6 provided the information that the "Steel Mogul" also appears in the 1935 catalog for the last time. The same consist appears in the 1936 catalog, but Flyer renamed it as the Baltimore and Ohio Freight set. Thanks mersenne6
1930
The Steel Mogul #1349
This set has the 3194 engine and tender combination consisting of:
3198 Type IV Cast Iron engine 0-4-0 No reverse
3199 Type IV tender
Consist:
3216 log 3207 Sand (gondola) 3208 Automobile (box car) 3211 Caboose - lighted
Cars have black frames with type Vb black trucks
These are pictures from mersenne6, posted earlier, that illustrate the Steel Mogul set from 1930.
1931
New Steel Mogul #1349
The catalog uses the same illustration from the 1930 catalog
The set has the 3191 engine and tender combination consisting of
3190 Type V cast iron engine 2-4-0 with remote control reverse, it has a pilot truck with brass stantions for flags
The consist contains the same four cars.
There is no description of the trucks , but it is likely that they are the same Type Vb black truck, car frames may have changed to to match the color of the body of the car.
Dates for the use of specific frames and trucks can be difficult to determine because Flyer may have shown old stlye frames in catalogs and ads after changes were implemented, or they may have used up old stock on uncataloged items in later years - a point that mersenne6 makes in his final comments about cast iron engines.
1932
Steel Mogul #1352
This set has the 3316 engine and tender combination consistion of
3315 Type IX Die Cast Locomotive 2-4-2 with remote control reverse and a ringing bell
The consist has the same four cars.
The catalog illlustration shows the change of engine style and illustrates that the frames of the cars match the body colors of the freight cars, the trucks are grey Type VII.
1933
Steel Mogul # 1352 RC
The catalog illustration and description of the set are identical to the set shown in 1932
This is a picture of the 3115 and 3199 tender
1934
Steel Mogul Set #1377RCT
This set has the 3323 engine and tender combination consisting of:
3322 Type VIII Die Cast locomotive has remote control reverse, no ringing bell, but now has a red firebox light
3199 Type IV 3199 tender with Type VIIIb trucks
Same consist of four cars.
The catalog illustration shows the correct model of the engine and has a red glow under the engine to illustrate the glow of the fire box. The trucks on the tender and cars have changed to grey Type VIIIb
This is the 3323 and 3199 tender
1935
mersenne6 checked his catalogs and provided the information that the Steel Mogul also appeared in the 1935 catalog for the last time.
1936
In 1936 Flyer renamed the same same consist the Baltimore and Ohio Freight
Electrifying Steam VI
915
The Last (Cast) Iron Horse.
In his book The Glory and the Dream, William Manchester's chapter title for the history of the year 1932 was "Rock Bottom". A reading of the opening paragraphs of American Flyer's Set Composition List for that year suggests it was indeed.
"Simplified Line
Complying with countless request we have restricted our train numbers to representative popular sellers. You can carry twice the stock with the same investment and half the space. Obviously, a "boiled down" line reduces sales resistance to a minimum in that the prospects can quickly determine his requirements."
In other words "build to suit" didn't work so now it was time to make some drastic cuts, tighten the belt, batten down the hatches, jettison all excess baggage, and try to ride out the economic storm. Cast iron was part of the baggage that was thrown overboard. 3198, 3195, 3195X, 3190, 3180, 1084 were past tense and all that remained was a hint of what had once been - a new addition to the bottom of the line train sets - #915.
The engine has two different configurations - often referred to as the "inside gear" and the "outside gear" these indicating the location of the reduction gear connecting the engine drive wheels to the electric motor.
Inside Gear
Outside Gear
The engines came with the small, single piece, lithoed sheet metal passenger cars or with the 5½ inch lithoed freight cars. The engine can be found with either die cast or stamped steel drivers. #915 was cataloged with set #907T but it is obvious that it was head end power for a large number of uncataloged sets as well.
Set #907T
Uncataloged Freight Set
Some final comments on cast iron steam.
While #915 was only shown for one year the shear number of these engines that show up suggests it was either produced for a much longer period of time, it took American Flyer several years to move the trains they had produced in 1932, or perhaps like other American Flyer engines, it was offered for separate sale by one of the big outlets like Montgomery Wards.
An examination of the set pictures in the posts preceding this one indicates Flyer did not scrap anything during that period and they continued to produce trains of a given type as long as there were parts that could be used to build them.
I have no proof other than my own observations but given what I have seen and photographed over the years I think the sequence of reduction of parts inventory for the cast iron engines was as follows:
Superstructure castings for everything except #3190/3180 were exhausted by the end of 1931. I suspect, but can't prove, this may have been a result of simply stopping production of everything except the #3190/3180 casting early in 1931 and then trying to build engines using only the 3190 superstructure. I say this because I have seen more variations of the 3190 than any of the others and I have seen these variations in sets that otherwise were the same as those illustrated with a #3198 in the 1931 catalog.
Freight car trucks were used up next. The #3199 tender for 1930 and 1931 came with the Type VII trucks as did the cars in their sets - The Steel Mogul Set (The Steel Mogul and Electrifying Steam III) is a good example. According to the Greenberg reference these trucks were made 1930-1932 with the Type VIII replacing them in 1933. If you look at the pictures of The Railroader (Electrifying Steam IV) it has all Type VIII trucks and this on a set that came and went from the catalog illustrations in 1931.
The next thing to go was the sheet metal visor and the lead truck assemblies. I have seen many 3190 castings with paint filled machined and tapped holes on the boiler front. These same engines have either a 2-4-0 or an 0-4-0 wheel arrangement and come with either 4 or 8 wheel tenders that may or may not have finishing details like brass grab irons.
Finally, the early version of the #3199 tender was replaced with the newer 1932 version. The last thing to be used up was the cast iron 3190 superstructure.
The very last of the remaining #3190 castings needed some minor machining on the left side to permit clearance for the manual reverse lever of the motor used in the new for 1932 #3307 engine.
To be fair to those 1932 managers, even without the world economic crisis, the dictates of economics and technology which favored sheet metal and high pressure die cast would have resulted in the end of cast iron as a material of choice at some point in time.
Electrifying Steam V
1084
The Great Depression was on and so was the demand for less expensive trains. American Flyer offered the 1084 to their dealers in the Set Composition List for 1931 but never illustrated the engine or its sets in the catalog. The Composition List indicates two sets were offered: Set #932 - a two car passenger and Set #933 - a two car freight.
The two car freight consisted of one of the 5 1/2", 4 wheel litho gondolas and a 5 1/2" IC caboose. In keeping with Flyers choice of names for its low priced sets these were called "Express Electric Trains" - a close verbal relative to the American Flyer clockwork Express trains.
The engine was painted a glossy, deep black finish, with highlights in either all red or red and yellow. The highlighting was applied to the piping, cast railing, windows and cowcatcher. The "two tone" version had red window trim and pale yellow highlights on the boiler piping and hand rails. There is also a version that has a single band of red paint across the center part of the cab.
The engine itself has all of the features of a real steam engine of the period - Elesco Feedwater Heater, tapered boiler, and a center mounted headlight with visor. The "problem", if you want to call it that, is the size. The engine has been called a cast iron cartoon and it certainly looks like one. I have one of these engines and every time I run it the first comment from almost any observer, regardless of gender, is "it's cute."
As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Flyer attitude in 1931 seemed to be "build to suit" as far as set consists were concerned and it appears the two sets for the 1084 were not exempt. In addition to boxed 932 and 933 sets I've also seen a boxed 932T set with 1084 and 3 passenger cars. What I find interesting is that the cars, unlike most of the toy passenger trains of the period, are not a matched consist.
Set 932 - engine with all red highlights
Set 932T - engine with red and yellow highlights
...and, just like the situation with the #3198 mentioned in a previous post, when Flyer ran out of components for the sets headed by #1084 they just substituted another low priced cast iron engine and shipped it.
Set #933 with a #915 locomotive
Neat story.
Jim
DMUinCT
Don,
My collecting began with Gilbert S gauge and has expanded to Pre War Flyer O gauge and Wide Gauge. I have to admit that I have not put a great deal of effort into collecting those Pre War items produced after the sale to A.C. Gilbert in 1938. Once I reach my limit in these other areas I think I may put some effort there.
The engines that you describe are indeed impressive and it is obvious that Gilbert was changing the look of the entire line. And the roots of S gauge are to be found in the items that were produced before the war.
I would echo mersenne6's information about the castings and the tendency to warp and deteriorate. There was one engine from this era in my family collection. It was a 435. By the time I had possession of it the boiler casting was swollen and distorted and as I handled it, it crumbled into pieces. I still have the rubber stamped "435" piece of the casting from under the cab window somewhere in my parts box I think, but the rest of the casting is long gone. I have always heard that this occured because of impurities in the metal.
Use the skills that you have developed from collecting Lionel in selecting a Flyer engine.
As a Lionel collector you might enjoy this story. My very first purchase on my own of a toy train was when I was 12, back in 1966. I stopped in a hobby shop near my home in Chicago on my way to the library one Saturday. The owner was chatting with a customer about a box of old trains that he had just taken in and wanted to unload. I peered into the box that he had sitting on the counter and saw a steam engine, cars, and lots of track. I must have been a collector even at that age. I asked how much he wanted for the box, and he said $15.00. (Remember this was 1966). I asked him to hold it for me and I ran the 5 blocks home, begged my dad for the money and ran the 5 blocks back to the store pulling my sled through snow. The shop owner was delighted to get rid of the stuff and I trudged home with the heavy box on my sled. When I got home I started going through the items. At the time I just thought it was a bunch of fun trains. In later years I came to realize what I had purchased. It was a 226 and tender and almost all of the 2800 series cars with the automatic couplers. Some of the cars have the nickel plates and some have the rubber stamping. I have a black hopper with rubber stamping and a red hopper with nickel plates. The engine purred like a kitten and I felt very fortunate to have a "new" powerful steamer. Years later when I discovered the Touhy and McComas books I found out what a real treasure I had discovered. Nothing like starting a collecting career with a find that was going to be very difficult to match.
Good luck in your hunt for these Flyer beauties. Keep us posted when you come home with your treasure.
Electrifying Steam IV
3190
The top of the line steam engine for 1931 was #3190. The engine is essentially a stretched #3198. The casting featured a different treatment of the cab windows and the front pilot was turned into a separate casting with the pilot moved further forward to permit clearance of the lead pony wheels. The screw support for the more advanced valve gear meant the loss of the simulated brass air tank on the side of the locomotive and the bell was moved from the position on the visor to a place just behind the smoke stack. The engine had "American Flyer" on brass plates below the cab windows, a blue green running board stripe and gold paint highlights on the inside of the smoke stack and the running board steps on the front.
From the standpoint of scale the engine is comparable in size to a small O scale engine ( note the O scale Lobaugh 4-4-0 in the background). With its tapered boiler and center mounted headlight the engine also has the visual appearance of then current real steam engines.
The engine came as either a 2-4-0 or a 0-4-0 without any reverse, with a manual reverse or with a remote control reverse. Identification numbers for the engine were rubber stamped on the underside of the pilot.
The numbers for the various combinations I've seen are
3190 R/C - 2-4-0 - remote control
3190 M/C - 2-4-0 - manual reverse
3180 - 0-4-0 no reverse
3180 R/C - 0-4-0 - remote control
3180 R/C - 2-4-0 - remote control
As mentioned in Electrifying Steam III there is also a hybrid that isn't part of the above number sequence. Some of the Iron Duke sets in from 1931 came with a 3190 casting with an 0-4-0 wheel arrangement and a manual reverse identical to the #3197. The ID number on the underside of the pilot is #3198.
Tenders were either a #3189 4 wheel tender or a #3199 8 wheel tender. Based on the catalog it appears Flyer intended to use the 4 wheel tender with the 3180 and the 8 wheel with the 3190 but I have seen all possible combinations of the engine ID's above and these two tender types.
The earliest valve gear consisted of die cast main and connecting rods with plated sheet metal piston rods.
The die cast valve gear is very fragile and I suspect the fragile nature made itself apparent even when the first 3190's were rolling off the assembly lines because there are a number of variations of the valve gear each one stronger than the last. The first thing to change was the connecting rod which became a sheet metal stamping.
Next the main rod became sheet metal which meant the final valve gear assembly was all sheet metal. It was the valve gear used on the die cast #3308 steam engine in 1932.
Some of the train sets:
The Paul Revere - engine has die cast main rod and connecting rod
and
The Railroader - engine has all sheet metal valve gear
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