Billbarman, the #614 came with a number of different tenders and, in addition to the cataloged sets, it was included in a variety of uncataloged sets as well so the fact that the tender differs from the one in my picture and the one in Northwoods catalog shot isn't too surprising.
Northwoods, thanks for the compliment concerning my collection but before you start imagining that my collection occupies a small warehouse I should tell you that, based on your pictures, your collection is much larger than mine. Most of what I've posted is stored in a small filing box in the library and, prior to my decision to start scanning them into the computer, they existed only as strips of negative film. Early on, I was fascinated by the similarities and differences of the prewar toy train offerings from the various manufacturers and I take delight in seeing how different manufacturers treat the same subject (hence the post on the IC cars).
Since collecting to the degree of my interest was simply out of the question (and since at that time no references worthy of the name existed) what I did was figure out a simple photographic setup I could take anywhere and whenever the occasion arose I would get permission to take pictures of trains in various collections. I've changed the setup over the years which is why the backgrounds of the various pictures differ. Of the group of pictures so far only the Flyer station, the Blue Bird, and the #16 set are mine. The single biggest area of actual collection of real objects would be the Flyer train stations.
Thats defenetly the locomotive exept it came with the tender shown here: http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-AMERICAN-FLYER-O-GAUGE-STEAM-LOCOMOTIVE-TENDER_W0QQitemZ330210661539QQihZ014QQcategoryZ19146QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
They cars had 4 wheeled trucks and 8 wheels in all. that orange boxcar as well as the caboose came with it too. also that yellow tanker shown above that mersenne6 posted. The set it still at my Grandparent's house so Il have to wait to get the numbers.
"No childhood should be without a train!"
Sturgeon-Phish wrote: Evening allI stopped by the local hobby shop as he sometimes has old train items and he had two prewar locos, a freight set and a passenger car set. He also had a tim litho station. He is getting a price from the owner. I have no idea of the value. I did not get the car numbers. They were in good shape and one of the locos only neede new wheels. This may be destiny. He has held on to things I've gotten from him before to allow the train budget well to fill up again.Jim Jim
Evening all
I stopped by the local hobby shop as he sometimes has old train items and he had two prewar locos, a freight set and a passenger car set. He also had a tim litho station. He is getting a price from the owner. I have no idea of the value. I did not get the car numbers. They were in good shape and one of the locos only neede new wheels. This may be destiny. He has held on to things I've gotten from him before to allow the train budget well to fill up again.
Jim
Jim,
Welcome to the thrill of the hunt. It sounds as if you have stumbled across the beginnings of a nice O gauge contingent to your collection. If you have numbers and descriptions it might be possible to identify the equiptment and give you some idea of value. My only word of advice is to use the same skills and standards at aquiring O gauge that you use for you S gauge collecting. Its easy to be lured into buying something just because its available, and you think there will never be another one like it. Keep us posted and let us know if you need any advice.
Northwoods
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Billbarman,
mersenne6's pictures give a great example of the engines and cars available during that era. Here is an illustration from the 1934 catalog. My catalogs only go up to 1934 at this point
Edit: I'm not sure which catalog page I originally posted here.
If you provide a bit more information about the cars and the engine we might be able to identify them further for you. Do any of the cars have numbers on them or stamped on the bottom? Do the cars have 4 or 8 wheeles? Does the tender have 4 or eight wheels, or look like either of the tenders we have here? If there is a way to post pictures, that would be helpful.
You are very fortunate to have you grandfather's trains. It is always nice to have something that has a sentimental value to it, that connects you with the family member. If the wheels on the leading truck and the trailing truck have been changed because the originals deteriorated it is very possible that the original trucks were still used with only the wheels being replaced. The wheel arrangement is most likey as it was originally.
mersenne6,
As usual I must tip my hat to you in appreciation for your willingness to post pictures. I would love to see your collection some day. I am certainly enjoying seeing it here. I also have the two tone cars, all three of them, but I don't have the matching engine. Its on my "to get" list. My Frontenac set (all green) is missing a baggage car.
Northwoods Flyer
Billbarman, Flyer made a number of sheet metal steam engines that bore a strong resemblance to the engines Northwoods Flyer discussed in his post. Given your description of a 2-4-2 wheel arrangement the engine closest to the 2-4-4's in appearance would be the #614 which was part of the #617 locomotive tender combination. This engine came with a number of different sets between 1933 and 1935. An example of this engine is illustrated below as part of the #1301T set....any chance this is the engine?
Northwoods Flyer, in an earlier post you mentioned the Frontenac set. I like that engine and car series but I like the two tone blue version - The Blue Bird set #1328 from 1931.
This set came with the Hoosac tunnel, a manually operated semaphore and warning light, and a #96 Station with a tan base.
here is a link with some stuff
http://www.norcaltca.com/pages/news.htm
I don't do much over on the bay so I agree - I don't think there is too much to worry about. . Before moving on to other aspects of prewar Flyer trains there are a few more things I'd like to add concerning lithography and the use of prototype railroad names.
A brief comparison of freight car litho treatment across manufacturers - Illinois Central
Train equipment with the names of real railroads had as much, if not more, appeal to the toy train buyer in the prewar period as they have today. While the variety of prototype names on toy trains in the prewar period was not nearly that of the postwar period the fact remains that among all of the major manufacturers they did manage to offer a reasonable representation of the names of the railroads of the day.
American Flyer freight cars carried heralds of railroads that, for to most part, would have been part of the real Chicago railroad scene. The breakout for the freight cars is as follows:
Gondolas (all sizes): PRR, CB&Q, NYC, IC, EJ&E, CM&St.P, LV, and UP
Boxcars (all sizes): B&O, IC, NKP, ART (reefer), GN, Southern, CP, MDT(NYC), SP, Morris (reefers)
Caboose: IC
Of these real railroads, the one that appeared most often in the Flyer lineup was the IC. With the exception of the 9 1/2" gondola, all of the IC offerings were in the smallest sizes. There was the small 4 wheel caboose which came in tuscan or bright red litho.
Then there was the small IC boxcar which was the first litho boxcar American Flyer offered with an actual railroad name.
... and the small American Flyer IC gondola
... and the large rose colored 9 1/2 inch gondola with its IC herald on the side.
Flyer, of course, was not the only toy manufacturer to offer cars for the Illinois Central. Bing offered an IC boxcar in both 4 and 8 wheel in four different shades of prototypical boxcar colors - caboose red, tuscan, brown and dark brown.
and Fandor offered one in chocolate brown in different sizes in 4 and 8 wheel.
Lionel, of course, wasn't much into litho but they did offer an enameled car (#820) with IC markings rubber stamped on the side.
All of these cars could be coupled together so, if the rug central magnate had the resources he could have assembled an IC freight consist that would have mirrored the real trains he might have seen rolling through his Chicago neighborhood.
Great Pictures as usual mersenne6. I appreciate all of the pictures that you have posted. Your focus of collecting so far appears to be in other eras of Flyer than mine. Its good to see what the early Flyer items that you have posted so far look like. The other good thing is that it looks like you and I won't be bidding against each other on eBay.
I thought I would take a foray into PreWar Flyer motive power for a while.
The pictures are of the Type XX sheetmetal locomotive and some of its variations and the tenders associated with it. The Type XX was introduced in 1934 and appeared again in 1935, It was not in the 1936 or 1937 catalog, but reappeared in the 1938-1940 catalogs. It was in a number of uncataloged sets in 1936 and 1937, and during several other years. It spanned the transition from Coleman ownership to Gilbert ownership.
The first version is an uncataloged locomotive from 1935. It usually appears as a 2-4-2 wheel configuration, but in this version it has a gear driven whistel unit that was attatched to the motor. The whistle takes up the space for the rear truck so it is acurately a 2-4-0. I don't have the appropriate tender for it yet, but it was a low end sheet metal tender similar to the grey one posted below. The siderods are also different on this locomotive, and mine is missing the cowl around the headlight.
This is the 403 Locomotive/Tender combination. It has the Type XX locomotive(401) 2-4-4 and a Type IV tender(421). It has nickel trim and therefore comes from early in 1940. It is Gilbert production.
This is another version of the 401. It was offered in 1939 as the 403 combination. It has the 2-4-4 configuration and copper colored tubing. It came with a Type IV tender. The tender that came with my example has the sheet metal curly Q coupler.
This type of engine also appeared in a very interesting combination in a double hearder set in 1939. I have componets of the set but not the complete set yet. I am working on that one too. Its the only double header set that I am aware of that Flyer marketed in the PreWar era.
Edit: There are plenty photos of the double header set up ahead.
And here is a parting of view of my stable of Type XX iron(sheetmetal) horses
American Flyer 5 1/2 inch lithoed gondolas
See updated re-posting of this post - page 82 of this thread
Seeing all the prewar cars, locos, tunnels and stations is like going on a guided muesum tour!
Please keep sharing the pictures and info.
Your pictures of the lithographed stations are great. I have never seen some of the examples that you show. I have focused on American Flyer production and I had no idea of the variety and detail of the buildings produced by other manufacturers. Your collection is impressive in its variety and depth.
3016 Sand Cars
Edited 5/31/2008
I enjoyed your pictures of the lithographed 6 1/2 inch cars. I have only collected the enameled version of freight cars up to this point. One of my collecting goals has been to have trains to display that all have the same couplers and trucks. Not all cars were produced in all truck and coupler combinations. If you throw in color changes and Flyer's practice of using the materials that they had on hand, this can get to be quite a goal. So far I have two examples of the 6 1/2" enameled sand cars. I am very liberal in what I will accept as far as condition is concerned. Most of my collection is made up of operator quality pieces.
Notice the difference in the trucks and the indentification painted on the bodies.
Let me quote the Greenberg guide (published by Kalmbach and now out of print) about these gondolas - also called sand cars.
"From 1919 through 1937 cars were lithographed. Enameled cars debuted in 1930, with either 4 wheels (1930-1935) or eight wheels (1930-1932) The first 6 1/2" sand cars were catalog numbers 1113 and 1116. The 1919 catalog illustrated both lithographed "1116", so the only difference was the wheels on the frame. The catalog number changed in 1930 to 3013 and 3016, signaling the addition of the new enameled cars with brass journals, brass ladders, and brake wheels."
There are other variations including an orange bodied sand car, which I have heard is relatively uncommon.
Edit: For some addtional pictures see the post on page
Bob Nelson
Hey Northwood,
The engine belong to my grandfather then my dad and now became mine and one day it will become my sons. It's been running every christmas and alot of other times since my grandfather bought it in the 30's. A few years ago it up was upgraded with an e-unit, and i would love to put the level control back in, the way it came in the 30's, the problem is i cant find the parts nor do i know the part numbers. It's been running almost 80 years and still purs like a kitten. It's Amazing.
QueensNY wrote: mersenne6 you can use photobucket to store you pictures and then post them here. Here is my AF 4692. If anybody knows where i can get parts for this please let me know. I know about Olsen but they do not have the lever assembly. Thanks. Been running for 70+ years and still going. [/img][/img][/img]
mersenne6 you can use photobucket to store you pictures and then post them here. Here is my AF 4692. If anybody knows where i can get parts for this please let me know. I know about Olsen but they do not have the lever assembly. Thanks. Been running for 70+ years and still going.
[/img]
QueensNY,
to the thread and thanks for posting the picture
Your steam engine is a beauty. Are you the original owner? I am aware of Olsen, and there is another supplier that I have heard of but not contacted yet or dealt with. It is Eric Trickel. I have an address and phone number for him. I have an email from him that says he has a catalog, but I have not sent away for it yet. Perhaps someone else has dealt with him to know what kind of parts he has.
Sturgeon-Phish wrote: Northwoods Flyer wrote: Sturgeon-Phish wrote: Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, . . . . I'm slipping, saving for a trainarama, Jim Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a prewar train,saving for a prewar train, saving for a prewar train, . . . . Jim you know that prewar Flyer would look great with a trainarama.All Aboard! GregWon a 790 Trainaram on ebay, train budget shot for now but now it will recover.
Northwoods Flyer wrote: Sturgeon-Phish wrote: Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, . . . . I'm slipping, saving for a trainarama, Jim Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a prewar train,saving for a prewar train, saving for a prewar train, . . . . Jim you know that prewar Flyer would look great with a trainarama.All Aboard! Greg
Sturgeon-Phish wrote: Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, . . . . I'm slipping, saving for a trainarama, Jim
Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, . . . . I'm slipping, saving for a trainarama,
Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a prewar train,saving for a prewar train, saving for a prewar train, . . . . Jim you know that prewar Flyer would look great with a trainarama.
All Aboard!
Greg
Won a 790 Trainaram on ebay, train budget shot for now but now it will recover.
Congratulations Jim!
Now that you have the backdrop, you can begin the collecting phase of putting Prewar lithographed Flyer on display!
I bet it won't be long.
Lithographed Freight Stations - A Comparison
Northwoods, those tunnel pictures are very interesting. I guess the two that I have predate 1928 because neither one has an interior label - I didn't realize Flyer had done anything like that to their tunnels.
Getting back to your freight shed. The long base Flyer shed with the crane was the largest of the US made freight stations and the most elaborate. Ives made a nice sized shed but you have to go across the pond to find freight sheds that are on par with the Flyer station.
This is a right hand version of the long base Flyer station with a green crane base and green chiminey. The crane base has slots in it - which makes it one of the leftover #90 station bases. The decal on the crane is the long one.
Bing's mid sized freight shed is a very close copy of the Ives station. Given that Ives, not Lionel, was the competitor for Bing at the time Bing was choosing their offerings to the U.S. market this really isn't too surprising.
Not to be outdone, KBN made a variety of freight stations as well. This one, while for the European market, was also exported to the U.S.
I don't know too much about Hornby's export efforts but I do know they made a series of fantastic freight sheds for the British market. This one is their "long base" version with two exterior lights and a manually operated crane.
As has been noted on this thread - love that litho.
Here is my Wide Gauge tunnel. It is another example of variations in Flyer production. The Greenberg guide lists this as produced in 1928, but the paper label should have a different spelling of Allegheny.
The cars are o gauge, from Flyer's line of 9" enamel cars, for size reference.
Side one
great pictures of the 6 1/2 litho cars. I will post some of the 6 1/2 enamel cars next.
American Flyer Tunnels - a listing
The tunnel with the set is the short one in your series of pictures. As with their stations, 1928 was the year Flyer gave their tunnels names. Prior to 1928 they were just tunnels with different catalog numbers. They are
O Gauge
251 - Hudson - 8 inches long
252 - Hoosac - 11 inches long
253 - Moffat - 15 inches long
Standard Gauge
4254 - Allegheny 19 1/2 inches long
4257 - Cascade (with two telegraph poles) - 23 inches long
American Flyer 6 1/2 inch litho gondolas
While Ives cornered the market as far as litho boxcars are concerned Flyer was the name if you wanted litho variety for your gondola string. The mid sized gondola litho started with a "generic" litho in either red or green with the simple label "Sand Car" to one side of the car. The number 1113 was supposed to be reserved for the 4 wheel version and 1116 was supposed to be reserved for 8 wheels but, as with so many other things about Flyer - whatever was ready for use on the assembly line was used. (This same thing occurs with the boxcars - 1112 was supposed to be 4 wheel and 1115 was supposed to be 8 but you can find the numbers on either wheel arrangement).
The first cars, like the one above, were made in 1919.
The litho quickly got more interesting:
PRR - Green
CB&Q Red
The 6 1/2 inch gondolas were made from 1919-1935. In addition to those above Flyer also made 6 1/2 gondolas for Nation Wide Lines. I've seen these in both green and red.
I'm glad the information helped. Thanks for posting the photos. I hope this will encourage you to post even more.
I do not have any clockwork engines in my collection at this time, although I find them very interesting and they are an important part of the history of the items produced by Flyer. I had to draw the line somewhere...at least for now. Who knows what direction my collecting will take in the future.
You mention that the set came with a station and a paper mache tunnel. It motivated me to go find some of the tunnels that I have in storage.
I think these may be from shortly after 1925. They are not labled with names.
I played with several of these when I was a child, and it amazes me that they have held up so well considering the material that they are made of. I have a Wide Gauge version that I will post later.
The predecessor to the 1929 Prairie State Set was Train Set #16 in 1924. The set came with a station and a paper mache tunnel (note- the tunnel in the picture is a later version - not one from 1924). The locomotive was the largest of the AF clockwork trains. This one has a very strong spring and, as long as the wheels on the passenger cars are well oiled, it will loop several times with the whole consist.
Ok, Northwoods, thanks for the info now let's see what we shall see.
You mentioned the American Flyer Prairie State Set
Here's one.
Imagine that it is 1925. You are looking through one of the magazines that are delivered to your house. Suddenly there in front of you is an advertisement from your favorite toy maker, American Flyer. There are sketches and a description of a new train that they are going to produce, something that they are calling Wide Gauge trains. The trains look great and you begin to hatch a plan of what to ask Santa for Christmas.
Its Christmas morning and there is a huge box under the tree, you tear open the wrappings and see the lable American Flyer. You open the box, and this is what you find.........
(Of course in 1925 it looked a lot better) This is the 4019, produced from 1925 - 1927. It was Flyer's first entry into the large train market. Lionel had been producing this size train for a while already and now Flyer was set to compete. This first set included the 4019 and three cars;
Baggage car #4040
rogruth wrote: Greg,That could be the one.I had an uncle that had those two locos,got then in 1939 and 1940.When he died they were to go to me bu,unfortunately for me,they were stolen about two years before he died.There were also about 30 cars that were taken.We have one train show a year in our area but these never show up.Would like to see them again.Thank you.
Greg,
That could be the one.I had an uncle that had those two locos,got then in 1939 and 1940.When he died they were to go to me bu,unfortunately for me,they were stolen about two years before he died.There were also about 30 cars that were taken.We have one train show a year in our area but these never show up.Would like to see them again.Thank you.
rogruth,
Sorry to hear about your loss. I know how much I enjoy having the "family trains" They have far more sentimental value than anything else. They are all operator quality, but I know that the major operators were my family members. In some way I feel like I am preserving some small part of the history of other families with my collection. I have often said, "If this train could talk I wonder what stories it would tell of the day it was opened on Christmas, or how many Christmas trees it has run around, or layouts it has run on." I hope you have the opportunity to own items like the ones that were stolen, or at least enjoy looking at them.
mersenne6 I'm sure this has been asked many times but I can't seem to find anything - how are you getting pictures to accompany your posts? If there's some simple way I'll add a few more to the thread.
I asked the same question and had great support from other participants.
It is a relatively simple process, and if I can do it, you will be able to as well.
The first step is to establish an account with an online photo hosting site. There were several that were suggested to me but I tried Shutterfly and I have stuck with it. http://www.shutterfly.com/
I take the digital pictures of my items, store them on my computer and then upload them and store them at my shutterfly account. You can set up a number of "albums" and organize your pictures any way you like on the site.
When I want to add them to my post on the thread I keep the message box open and open a second window with shutterfly. I have the picture I want in the viewing window on shutterfly (this will make sense once you see how the site is set up). I copy the picture from shutterfly and paste it into the message as I am writing it, (or after I have written it).
I hope this works for you. It would be great to see pictures of your collection.
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