Greg,
That could be the one.I had an uncle that had those two locos,got then in 1939 and 1940.When he died they were to go to me bu,unfortunately for me,they were stolen about two years before he died.There were also about 30 cars that were taken.We have one train show a year in our area but these never show up.Would like to see them again.Thank you.
Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama,saving for a trainarama,saving for a trainarama, . . . . I'm slipping, saving for a trainarama,
Jim
Hi rogruth, and ,
Edit 7/2021: The original link to an ebay listing no longer exists This is a photo of the Flyer Hudson that I currently have in my collection. - Northwoods Flyer
Is this the engine that you were thinking of? I found this one on eBay, its a repaint. I don't have one like it myself, but it is a collecting goal of mine for 2008. I don't have the switcher or a picture at the moment. Perhaps someone else will post it, or I will when I find it. I agree the proportions and general "heft" of these Flyer engines just feels right.
Greg
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Here is another Pre-War O gauge set. I believe this was shown in the 1926 or 1927 catalog. I do not have either of those catalogs yet, so I am going by information from the Greenberg guide, where the cars for this set are pictured. It is another of their typical 4 unit sets. This set came with some very nice repainting of the roofs, and I believe the frames, and some new wheels. It at least gives me an idea what it would have been like to own some of these beauties straight out of the box. It runs like a top.
The engine is a 3011 - number plate on one side
Coach numbered 1206
There are several other sets from this era that I would like to have, including the Broadway Limited set and the Prairie State set, and a yellow and green Oriental Limited set. I have plenty of hunting to do for the next few years.
So the focus has been O gauge Pre-War Flyer for a while. Perhaps its time to look at some of the Wide Gauge production.
To be continued...............
Beautiful pre war. Please keep posting. It has been busy around here and not much time for trains.
Allow me to introduce you to The Bluebird. This is another one of the named trains that Flyer marketed in the late 20's. I don't have the catalogs yet to verify this but I believe that the set first appeared in the catalog in 1927. It is another 4 unit set consisting of an electric outline engine, baggage, coach and observation.
In the 1927 set I believe that the engine was the 3013
Baggage
Greg Northwoods Flyer
As much as I love the tinplate accessories, my real love is the trains that Flyer produced. In the late 20's they introduced several named train sets that were very popular and which sold many sets. They show up quite frequently, and as with all of Flyer production there are plenty of variations. I have two versions of the train called "The Oriental Limited". Its a 4 unit set consisting of the engine, baggage, coach, and observation. If I have done my research correctly the set on the left was produced in 1927 - the only year that it had red windows in the lithography. I believe the set on the right is from 1929. All years other than 1927 had a blue color to the windows. My set also has some nifty opaque windows that I believe were added later. This is the only set that I have seen like this. It gives the cars a nice glow as they rattle down the track.
The engine on the left is a 3012, on the right a 3112
Does anyone have other variations of this set?
As I look at my Wide Gauge sets I see that the Yorktown and Bunker Hill cars come with the orange or blue window colors as well. I wonder if that was also typical of 1927-1928?
Scott and Jim,
I love the look of lithographed tinplate, which must be the reason that I continue to seek it out.
Scott ,
I love the picture of your nephew. I can remember playing with our family's trains for hours as a child. My favorite memory is of laying on the living room floor watching the trains speed around the track. Each time the headlight would shine on the metal track as it approached I remember feeling a surge of excitement. I also remember wishing that I was a person small enough to be standing on the station platform as the train pulled in or rushed past. I know that one of the reasons I collect is because it puts me back in touch with those memories. I am happy to share my toys with others Scott, that's why I keep posting pictures of them here.
mersenne6,
Thank you for all of the great information to help with identification. For a long time I paid more attention to collecting Flyer S, until I started looking at the items that my dad had purchased second hand right after the war. I became interested in them as well and discovered the whole world of O Gauge Flyer. I have enjoyed learning the history of the company, especially as it relates to the contemporary historical scene. Many of the articles I have read give insight into the mindset of the people who ran the company as they tried to produce toys that the consumer would purchase. I also like to see the ways in which Flyer adaptively used the items that they had on hand. I also have this desire to support the underdog, so seeing how Flyer competed with its larger competitors in the market is a great study in psychology and strategy as well.
Here is a picture of my 102 Central Station.
Thanks again everyone for your participation in this thread. I have looked forward to the posts.
I have a small area in the house for displaying some of the trains/accessories. I change the display every month or so. Currently I have 6 Flyer sets on display. Pre-war Flyer makes up a large part of the collection. My interest in Flyer was the result of a "poorly written" article on toy trains that appeared in the local paper many many years ago. The piece was illustrated with a picture of some toy trains sitting on 3 rail track. One of the trains was a 3/16" Flyer Royal Blue which I "knew" didn't run on 3 rail. A week or so later I mentioned the article to one of the long time collectors and I commented on the "fact" that the writer couldn't even get the trains and their track right. His response was to tell me, in so many words, that I was wrong and that Flyer had been 3 rail before WWII and that they had originally made their 3/16" for O gauge track. My first reaction upon learning this was "I've go to see one of these things" and, as luck would have it, at the very next train meet I found a 3/16" Royal Blue for 3 rail which I promply bought....and with that purchase the hunt for pre-war Flyer was on.
Getting back to the stations - the #97,98,99,105,107 series had the same approach to roof colors as the 96/104. The thing to remember about 97 and 98 is that these numbers applied to two different stations - a passenger and the freight which you have shown in this series of posts.
The first 97,98,99 series had
97 - green roof-no embossing , gray base, litho walls, doors, and windows - Door cut out and bent back, no lights.
98 - red roof, window panes cut out and frosted plastic inserted - single lamp inside
- there is a variation of the #98 all of the above except a green roof and instead of an actual lamp it has a large hole with "ears" punched into the center of the base. The hole will accomodate a small porcelain lamp socket which would have been very common in the 1920's. In short, the station didn't have a lamp but was built so the budding railroad CEO could upgrade the station as finances permitted. As far as I know Flyer never gave this version a number nor mentioned it in their catalogs.
#99 - red roof-no embossing, everything else like #98 but with the addition of two external lamps.
#105 - red roof - no embossing - two external lamps - lithoed walls, doors, and windows. Windows not cut out, door cut out and bent back.
Finally in 1928, along with the general upgrade of the accessory/station line the station became the Terminal Station #107 - orange embossed roof with green dormer and brass tag with the station name, side lithography same as all of the above, windows cut out with frosted plastic inserts, a single inside light and two outside lights. Base embossed to look like flagstone and panted a reddish maroon. The only variations I've seen on the #107 are the external lamps and the paint color of the base. The early external lamps were painted green on the outside with white reflectors whereas the later versions were all brass stampings. The base at some point changed from the reddish maroon to a bright red.
Well said,
it is my opinion that the more toyish it is the more satisfaction I get out of it. some guys get too wrapped up in scale and realism. more power to them but for me its all about the play value. I think that is the best thing about the prewar tin stuff. there is no hope of figuring out scale. I love that my Marx guard shack has a guy who is 35 feet tall and all blue and lets not forget he's pinned to the door! I love to watch my Flyer run around the track at several hundred miles an hour (adjusted for scale). I think the Flyer and Marx litho stuff is absolutely the greatest. and as for you Greg, I feel you have entirely too much way cool stuff and think we need to redistribute it among us with less. to stimulate the hobby. its for the best really. the photo is for all the scale modelers. to me this is what it is all about. My nephew pumping gas into the cars on his layout.
Scott
It is really neat to see the tin litho. My only piece similar is a Marx Station. I don't have a picture of it. I will try and take a picture and post it.
I think the tin litho has a charm all it's own. It may not look "real" but I feel good when I look at it.
I grew up on the Northwest side of Chicago in the Logan Square area and the names of the Flyer Stations have always fascinated me. It makes sense since Flyer was manufactured in Chicago during those years. It makes me feel right at home to be surrounded by those names.
Thanks for all of the information on the 96/104 variations. It helps to have the progression of changes listed in one place instead of hunting through each entry in the Greenberg guide. I have two of the variations of the #90 station and hope to have other representative samples at some time.
Do you have a place to display your collection? Do you focus on Flyer or does your collecting include other manufacturers? My wife and I have been married 25 years and I started collecting shortly after we were married, with the family trains being the core of the collection. She has always been very supportive.
Yes, my wife is very much aware of the hunt for variations and the number I have. Since train collecting/running is my only major hobby I made sure she understood the pecularities of the hobby and the fact that I had no desire to drop the hobby after marriage. We agreed on a budget and we also agreed that it could be negotiated up or down depending on such things as desires and family needs. Obviously family finances come first. We've been married for 20+ years and the arrangement has worked very well.
Your Kenilworth is the last of the series before the transition to the new lithography in 1935. Your Flossmoor is the second version. The general order for those two stations is as follows:
1923-24 - No 96 only - solid red brick litho with an olive roof - no embossing on roof and no light available.
1925-26 - No 96/104-Variegated brick and the green roof/red roof with external light option - no embossing on roof and neither the baggage nor the waiting room door cut.
1927 - Same as above except baggage door cut and bent in.
1928?-1932 - same as above except roof now embossed - earliest embossing included ridge lines around area where chiminey is tabbed - later versions did not have this. 1928 - first time catalog gives the stations names - Flossmoor and Kenilworth - Trivia - These places, like Hyde Park (the very small #90 station) and Terminal and Union are all places/stations in the Chicago area. Flossmoor was more of a blue collar neighborhood and Kenilworth was more upper class. These stations cover all directions from Chicago except west. Hafner - a competitor - chose Glen Ellyn for their station name. This town is west of Chicago.
1933?-1934 same as above but cut door changed from baggage to waiting room.
1933? Chiminey litho changed from small brick to large brick.
1934? External lamp changed from brass stamping to chromed steel. Change to enameled chiminey.
1935 Complete change in litho treatment - light now internal for 104 or not present for 96. Roof/Chiminey treatments - many - smooth enamel/crackle enamel in red/orange/green. Chiminey treatment smooth or crackle enamel red/green/yellow/orange.
Throughout the run the base was painted gray. However, sometime between 1930 and 1935 for a very brief period the base was painted tan. There is a possibility that this was done only for stations included with train sets because the only time I've ever seen one of these stations was as a part of a boxed set, however, this is my conjecture and since I've only seen 3 of these the sample size is rather small.
There are some interesting factory errors. I have one station with two fronts, a red roof, and no light. I have another where the walls were fed into the cutting press upside down and all of the tabs are on the roof line which makes the roof sit higher. With no tabs on the base, small holes were punched into each side and a brass washer with a tab was riveted to the inside and the tab bent over to hold the wall to the base. The last one really makes me wonder about the actual cost of station production vs. the sales cost. That is a lot of re-work.
Thanks for the information. I always have difficulty identifying which one of the stations that I have. I went and took a look at the ones I do have and I think I have it figured out now.
This is the early 104 Kenilworth Station. It has the light and a red roof.
This is the 96 Flossmoor Station. No light and the green roof. This is a piece that has always been in our family and interestingly it has a Christmas tree socket and bulb inside, odd when you think that the only way it shows is through the door that is slightly ajar. I just noticed that the lithography on the two chimneys is different
This is the later 104 Kenilworth station. It has an interior light. It has a crackle orange roof and a green chimney. I also have another one that is boxed and has a grey base, smooth red roof and a red chimney. The variations just go on.
By the way, my wife wants to know; if you are married, does your spouse know how many variations you have and that you are still looking? (Please say yes - my continued collecting depends on it.)
I have one of each of the main base/crane base color combinations, one with the crane base made from the #90 bases, and both of the #98's. I have a left and a right hand crane and I've got one with the short and the long decal. I've seen all of the versions listed but, I too have a way to go.
My perception is that Flyer was never as tight as Lionel when it came to variation on the product line - they were toys and as long as they more or less resembled what was in the catalog and they passed the QC with respect to operating - they were shipped. So I would agree - variation is more the norm with AF as opposed to Lionel.
With respect to the #96/104 station (Flossmoor and Kenilworth) station all of those stations I have strongly suggest the green roof was supposed to be used on the #96 and the red roof on the #104. This color difference along with the presence of an operating light appears to be deliberate. It is also obvious that if green or red roofs were not ready at the assembly point then whatever was available was attached and shipped. With the advent of the new litho treatment of that station in 1935 there were more colors/finishes available for the roofs but, Flyer still appears to have tried to use the roof color to differentiate between the lighted and the unlighted versions.
The Winter 1989 issue of CTT has an article on the #96/104 stations, The January 1996 issue has a follow up to the Winter 89 article and the March 2002 issue has an article on the freight stations.
Do I even dare ask how many of those variations you have? I will admit that this is the first version that I have aquired of the station set. I will have to watch more carefully now. Somehow I feel as if you just fed my addiction. I do have 3 variations of the watchman's tower, and I am working on a fourth, so this is not a new addiction I can assure you. I have heard it said that it really isn't difficult to find variations of Flyer items; it is more difficult to find two items that are the same.
Soooo.....one down 13 to go and the addiction begins....you have the main base red/crane base gray with the crane on the left hand side now you will need
1. Same but with crane on the right
2. Same as above but with short decal on side of crane
3. main base tan/crane base green crane on right and crane on left
4. Same as above but crane base made from leftover #90 station bases - look for hole pattern to confirm.
5. Main base red/crane base green crane on right and crane on left crane with short and crane with long decal
6. #98 - main base red/crane base gray - crane replaced with new A.C. Gilbert crane.
7. #98 - main base red/crane base gray - A.C. Gilbert crane and freight shed roof changed to bright crackle green, red chiminey, and no dormer.
....and then, of course, there are all of the possible variations with the chiminey colors .....
O Wow! Look its a box for me. Its from eBay!!!!. I hope I can get it into the train room before my wife sees it.
I wonder why it took so long to come. I'm sure that I mailed that money order at least 6 months ago. Well, maybe it was only last week. I can't wait to see it.
Hmmmmm "Fra-gee-lay" I don't remember sending to Italy for it. Gosh this packing tape is really tough.
Wow look at all that paper. At least it isn't packing worms. I think I have the largest collection of those in North America.
Alright! He remembered to send the roof. Now where is the rest of it.
Ahh there it is. What a great job of packing.
Its a bit different than I remember the picture in the auction. Maybe if I squint.....
Yes! The Blueboard Central has a new station.
Bring on the freight.
This is the No 97 Freight Station Set offered from 1936-1939. Flyer also used this same kind of configuration in its S gauge line after the War. The number for that one is 712. I have one but its packed away somewhere. Jim do you have one to show?
You have some beautiful items in your collection.
Jim,
Its a good thing that Gilbert production was made of sturdy plastic. I'm guessing that many trains have met their end by being stepped on.
I have one more example of the sheet metal streamliners made by American Flyer. This is one called The Comet. It was produced in 1936 only. It never appeared in the Flyer consumer catalog, but I have read that it did appear in a seperate train brochure that featured low-end trains. It is a another delicate train that could have been easily damaged.
Leaning out the window looking back
The Comet is unique in that it has a powered head car and an identical unpowered car as the tail car rather than an observation.
There are two other sheet metal streamliners. The Hiawatha and the Minnehaha which is sometimes known as the New York Central. I am still looking for good examples of these to add to the collection.
Beautiful! My bride accidently kicked my Franklin 88 and 20, 30 & 40 cars that were under the tree, luckily they are pretty tough.
This is another of the sheet metal streamliners that American Flyer produced. It only appeared in the 1935 catalog. It is known as the Illinois Central Streamliner. It has also been known as the Green Diamond. Mine has some issues with its paint, but it tends to be difficult to find. All of the sheet metal sets are prone to damage by being bent or crushed. I can just imagine someone stepping on the train by accident under the Christmas tree.
I just got high speed internet today. I can't believe how much easier it is to upload and post pictures.
Northwoods Flyer wrote:Staying with a theme, here are some pictures of the Lithographed version of Flyer's Burlington Zephyr. It was only listed in the Flyer catalog in 1935, although it was listed in other specialty catalogs for several years after. It was intended to be a lower cost alternative to the cast aluminum set. It came in several sets with different numbers of cars. It came in either 3 or 5unit sets. I have a 4 unit set. So that means that either I have an extra car that got added along the way, or one of the original cars got lost somewhere. Ahhhh, another reason to cruise Ebay!.Sturgeon-Phish, Jim,The background is actually a few pieces from the 790 Trainorama. I thought you would like to see it.Greg
Staying with a theme, here are some pictures of the Lithographed version of Flyer's Burlington Zephyr. It was only listed in the Flyer catalog in 1935, although it was listed in other specialty catalogs for several years after. It was intended to be a lower cost alternative to the cast aluminum set. It came in several sets with different numbers of cars. It came in either 3 or 5unit sets. I have a 4 unit set. So that means that either I have an extra car that got added along the way, or one of the original cars got lost somewhere. Ahhhh, another reason to cruise Ebay!.
Sturgeon-Phish,
The background is actually a few pieces from the 790 Trainorama. I thought you would like to see it.
You are right! When I saw the Trainarama, I did get excited. The trainarama is a beautiful accesory. Maybe one day . . .
PATtheHAT.
Thanks for the lead on eBay. Flyer's Hudsons are beautiful. That model is one of my collectiong goals for 2008. I already have it on my watched items.
Thanks
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