Hi bsm699,
Thanks for posting the great pictures of your Christmas layout. You have some nice pieces in your collection, and they look great under the tree. I particularly like your 3315 bell ringing steam engine. Here are a few shots of mine.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Hello, Does anyone know where I can get a new pushrod for this engine? Mine are cast and one of the long rods is broken off. I figured I'd better get a complete set of the stamped ones so both sides will match. Also, I need the brass screw that holds the valve gear to the engine shell.
Thanks,
When you say "this engine" which engine are you referring to? The engine in the post just prior to yours doesn't have cast side or main rods.
Eric Trickel makes reproduction side rod assemblies for most of the prewar Flyer steam engines. His e-mail is TRICKELCASTPARTS@YAHOO.COM
The Other Freight Cars V - Addendum B
The Caboose 9.5 inch version
Back on page 24 Mersenne6 posted information on The variations of cabooses that Flyer produced.
"3201/3211/411 - 9 ½ inch cars
All of these cars share the same stampings. The differences are trucks, couplers, and markings which can be either brass plates, decals, or rubber stampings. This caboose is usually found lighted.
3201 – 1932 - non-illuminated, red body and darker red roof and/or cupola.
3211 – 1928-1938 – illuminated, red body and darker red roof, also red body and matching red roof.
411 - 1939-1940 - illuminated, red body and roof."
He posted some pictures along with the information. Here are a few more examples of the 9.5 inch enameled caboose. I have identified them using the system in the Greenberg Guide to American Flyer Prewar O gauge by Alan Schuweiler
3211 B (unlighted)
The Other Freight Cars VI
Dump Cars
I think that the dump cars that American Flyer made have some of the best play value of any of the cars that they produced. I can remember as a child when I played with the one that we had. I filled it with all kinds of small toys and other objects to haul. I never tired of opening and closing and locking the simple mechanism that held the sides of the car together.
Let me quote from the Greenburg Guide by Schuweiler:
"American Flyer made dump cars in 6 1/2- and 9 1/2-inch lengths. The 6 1/2 inch version came with both four and eight wheels and was basically a shorter version of the 9 1/2-inch cars. Although the 1939 variations had new numbers, the main difference was the type of coupler."
Dump cars were cataloged from 1934 to1939. I'll use the identification system that the Greenburg guide uses.
6 1/2 Inch Cars
3009 1934-1935
This is the 4 wheel version of the car. I don't have a picture of this variation (Do you have a picture of it Mersenne6?).
3019 (A)
1934-1935
This version is not listed in Greenburg but only varies in the color
3019 (B)
1938
1939
AFI
American Flyer Investigations
I have another engine that needs identifying. Since Mersenne6 did such a great job in identifying and giving information on my 3195 I thought I might try this one. Back on page 11 he gave a wealth of information on the 3195 and its variation. He mentioned that the Type III engine is sometimes found with 3185 plates. The 3185 is well known as a medium sized box cab engine. I'm wondering what anyone might know about the 3185 steamer.
Here are some photos.
I've done some research since posting the above entry. I gained some information from a similar engine that was listed on Ebay. The Ebay listing showed in its photo where an additional number had been rubberstamped on the underside of the engine shell. I took a closer look at my engine, and low and behold the same rubber stamping was present on my engine; it was just too faint for me to notice it at first.
Here is the engine with its unusual 3185 brass tag
The Other Freight Cars VII
Searchlight and Floodlight Cars
These cars were cataloged by American Flyer in 1938 and 1939. They are the same car, the only difference being the name and numbers assigned to them and the fact that they changed couplers.
The car is referred to as a Searchlight car.
This the 3213. It has sheet metal (curly cue) couplers
Backyard Railways and the Curious Case of Horace Wade
In 1921 American Flyer tried a new tactic to increase train sales at times other than the Christmas season. In April 1921 Flyer introduced the idea of outdoor backyard railroads and offered non-rusting track that could be used for such an effort. During the summers of 1921-1925 they
In October 1989 the TCA journal The Train Collectors Quarterly printed an article about Ned Norman the 1923 winner of this contest. The article was illustrated with pictures of Mr. Norman astride his then (as in 1989 then) current 1 ½” live steamer as well as a couple of pictures of his outdoor layout which had been taken in 1923.
Ned's Layout as shown in the TCA article
Dear Ned:
Here it is, the check your photograph won in our Grand Prize Contest.
We had hundreds of photographs from all over the country including Canada and Porto Rico (sic) and from all the photographs you won first prize.
We expect to have a Photograph Contest again next year and will be glad to send you details of it early in the year.
I will appreciate it very much if you will let us know if the check arrived safely.
With best wishes for a Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.
The text below the photo of Horace Wade states:
“Of course, you know Horace Wade! He’s the chap who cut his teeth on a dictionary, knew grammar by heart when 7 years old and wrote a famous novel, “In the Shadow of Great Peril,” when he was 11 years old. He is 13 years old now and has made his mark as a newspaper reporter and magazine writer. He was formerly an active Lone Scout. You’ll like this story because it is a story about a boy who did something in a big way.”
I had the pamphlet in my possession back in 1989 when the TCA article came out and I sent photocopies of it to both TCA and the author along with some thoughts about the two Horace Wades – there was no reply and I let the matter drop. A few weeks ago I was rummaging through my files and I found the folder with the TCA magazine and the pamphlet.
One thing not available in 1989 was Google search. Since I was still curious about Horace Wade I sat down last night and put him through the search engine – I found a few things:
Name: Horace Atkisson Wade – born 1908
Published Books:
It appears Wade was part of what sounds like a 1920’s fad – child authors. According to the John Hopkins Project Muse most of these individuals faded away but Horace was one of three who actually wrote as an adult. In 1925 he wrote G.B. Shaw asking him to write a preface for his latest novel – Shaw was very firm in his refusal and it is unclear if the book is the Hollywood book above or another “Tracking Whiskey Wolves” which, according to my search, was completed around 1925 but apparently was never accepted for publication. It appears in later life he became a publicity man for the horse racing industry (hence the book Tales of the Turf).
My questions then and now are pretty much the same- was this just one of those interesting coincidences – a friend and an author of the Flyer pamphlet who happened to have the same name or is this a case of the memory playing its usual tricks over time and transposing the name of a forgotten friend with a name on a pamphlet?
Based on the Google search I’m sure Horace the author and Horace the third boy in New Jersey is not the same individual. Horace, the author, was living in Chicago in 1923 and working for a Chicago newspaper. What I do wonder about is the possibility that American Flyer might have retained Horace Wade, the author, to write copy about the 1923-1925 winners. If they did his copy would most likely have been used for the pamphlets announcing the 1924 and 1925 contests and there might be a chance that Ned Norman, or at least a picture of his layout, was featured in these later announcements. On the other hand, by 1923 Flyer might have been having second thoughts about the contest in which case they could have just as easily used the 1923 pamphlet with updated dates of contest entry.
When I wrote the above paragraph the reference - American Flyer Digital Archive - was something in the future. Now that the future has arrived we have an addendum: The pamphlet for the 1924 contest had no writeup about any of the previous contest winners. The pamphlet consists of an announcement of the contest along with the rules on one page and pictures of some previous winner's layouts as well as some previous entries which did not win and a note to dealers to feature the ad in their store window. There is no pamphlet for 1925.
Pamphlet 1924 American Flyer Contest Announcement
Mersenne6,
What a great story on the American Flyer Backyard Railroad contests. I enjoyed your research. Its amazing what you can discover with the internet. The access to information is incredible. Are you familiar with the old publication of the American Flyer Collectors Club called The Collector? It was published quarterly for 21 years by Frank Hare (who died last October). It ceased publication in 1998 but copies of it ocassionally show up at shows and on Ebay. It had several articles about the contests and at least one was written by someone who had actually participated in it.
Type II tender - 3196
Not only does the internet provide access to information, as we all know it also provides access to train items that many of us would only see in photos and articles. In the entries above on my 3195X engine I mentioned that it did not have a tender with it. Thanks to Ebay that situation has been rectified. Earlier this week the postman delivered this example of a 3196.
Questions answered elsewhere.
The Iron Horse
The Iron Horse passenger set appeared in the 1930 and 1931 catalogs. It had the nice enameled passenger cars with plenty of brass accents and two shade of orange.
Delighted to see that the interest in pre war Flyer continues. This photo shows one of the post Gilbert pre war locos, built to 3/16 scale but running on 0 gauge track, pulling Marx tin passenger cars. I think the cars and loco look perfect together.
Hi Graeme,
Its nice to have you post here again. I agree that the Marx cars look very nice with the Gilbert engine. If I were ever to expand beyond Flyer items I would consider a set of those cars. I'm not sure which of the Gilbert O engines you have but here is a picture from the 1941 catalog that I think might be your engine. Gilbert only produced these 3/16" O gauge engines from 1938 to 1942.
Hi,
Tinplate Pullman 496 and Observation 497 were made in tuscan color and match the cars in the photos except they are 6-6 wheel sets. They were made both illuminated and non-illuminated. These were offered in tuscan, green, and blue. In addition, in tinplate, a green operating RPO #492 and a gray whistling baggage car #490 were mad,.as well, as a non-whistle baggage car was offered in green, tuscan and blue.
Of those offered your picture shows the baggage (# unknown by me) and the coachs # 495
Diecast 521 Pullman Baggage/Club and 524 Pullman in 6-6 wheels were made but no diecast observation was offered in O gauge. Post-war the S gauge observation 6-6 in plastic was made as 654. All were offered in green and in tuscan.
Best,
Hank Betz
Hi 3railphillyoprerator,
Hank,
Thanks for providing the information on the 3/16" O gauge passenger cars above. I have very little of the prewar 3/16" equipment in my collection, so any information on it is very welcome.
The Other Freight Cars V - Addendum B.1
Back on page 29 I posted some pictures of variations of the 9.5 inch caboose to fill in the information that Mersenne6 provided. Since that time I have added an example of the 3201 Caboose to the collection.
The 3201 was produced in 1932. It is a non-illuminated enamel version of the 3211. The photo does not show it, but the roof and the cupola are a darker shade of red than the body of the caboose.
It has two brass American Flyer Lines plates per side.
Accessories
2042/4042 Crossing Gate
In gathering my collection I have always tried to have the best example of an item that I could afford. Sometimes that means I have a well used example of an item that ranks somwhere low on the TCA grading standards. On occasion I have upgraded on an item if I it is a good deal. I have not often sought out pristine boxed items simply because they are usually priced well beyond my budget. But on occasion an item that is "in the box" has come my way. I have learned to recognize the type of boxes that American Flyer used in the prewar era. And I will admit, when I see one at a meet or in a shop or in an Ebay auction, my heart beats a little faster.
Crossing Gate 2222 (a)
Over the years American Flyer produced a wide variety of trackside accessories, including crossing gates. This particular model was cataloged in 1928-1934 and again in 1936-1939. While the crossing gate carries the same number during those time periods, it is actually two different designs.
This is the early version from 1928-1934.
Crossing Gate 2222(b)
American Flyer used the same number for a crossing gate of a different design. This version was marketed from 1936-1939.
3210 9.5" Tank Cars
Way back on pages 9 and 10 of this thread Mersenne6 and I covered the Tank Cars that were produced by American Flyer in the Pre War era. I recently aquired another variation. So I decided to quote the entry about the enameled cars and add the new variation at the end.
Northwoods Flyer Let me return to Flyer Tank Cars for a moment. Here are some examples of the 9 1/2" enameled tank cars. They were cataloged from 1928-1939. This car constitutes a small collection in its own right. By my count in the Greenberg book there are at least 20 variations. These variations occur with changes in the color of the tank, the color of the frame and the difference in trucks. These three cars all have the same frames and trucks (known as type VIII). The third one has been altered by a previous owner who must have taken a tin snips to the truck to give it the look of a step in the middle of the truck. This version is from 1938 which you can tell by the trucks and more obviously by the sheet metal knuckle "Curly Q" coupler. This one is not listed in the Greenberg Guide, so I guess this makes 21 variations. This is the 410 cataloged in 1939 and 1940 with its original box. The car should be equiped with Flyer's link and pin couplers. This car is original to my family. My father bought conversion kits sold by Gilbert to change the link and pin couplers to knuckle couplers. He managed to do the conversion on several of the cars. At some point I plan to change them back to the original link and pin. If anyone has other examples of these cars please post them. Northwoods Flyer
Let me return to Flyer Tank Cars for a moment.
Here are some examples of the 9 1/2" enameled tank cars. They were cataloged from 1928-1939. This car constitutes a small collection in its own right. By my count in the Greenberg book there are at least 20 variations. These variations occur with changes in the color of the tank, the color of the frame and the difference in trucks.
These three cars all have the same frames and trucks (known as type VIII). The third one has been altered by a previous owner who must have taken a tin snips to the truck to give it the look of a step in the middle of the truck.
This version is from 1938 which you can tell by the trucks and more obviously by the sheet metal knuckle "Curly Q" coupler. This one is not listed in the Greenberg Guide, so I guess this makes 21 variations.
This is the 410 cataloged in 1939 and 1940 with its original box. The car should be equiped with Flyer's link and pin couplers. This car is original to my family. My father bought conversion kits sold by Gilbert to change the link and pin couplers to knuckle couplers. He managed to do the conversion on several of the cars. At some point I plan to change them back to the original link and pin.
If anyone has other examples of these cars please post them.
Northwoods Flyer
This version of the 3210 was cataloged in 1928 and 1929.
The early versions of the 3200 cars had lots of brass accents, including identification tags with the indiviual car numbers.
I realized not too long ago that I have been collecting trains for over 25 years. If you take into account that I actually bought my first "old train" when I was 12 years old it is a lot longer than that. The real collecting began shortly after my wife and I were married and I wanted to set up my old trains around the tree for our first Christmas together. It may come as no surprise to those of you who also have the collector gene that the focus of my collecting has changed several times over that period of time. I won't go into great detail about the directions my collecting has taken but let me say that as the direction changed there have been a number of boxes packed up and stored in the darker areas under the train table. The day of reconning eventually comes, and it becomes necessary to go through those boxes just to find out what is in them. I've been doing that during the last few weeks. What I have found has amazed me at times.
While I have always had American Flyer as my primary love I have dabbled in Lionel as well. While going through the boxes I discoverd that I did more than dabble on a few occasions. Before I began to collect American Flyer Pre War trains in earnest, I collected Lionel Pre War trains. That "old train" that I bought when I was 12 was a Lionel. I discovered that I have both small and large sized freight cars from the Pre War era. So I decided that I would post some pictures of what the two compaines were producing at about the same time. I am far from an an expert on Lionel Pre War trains. In fact the only reference books I have on Lionel are the series of books produced by Touhy and McComas.
The Flyer items that I will be posting have also been posted earlier on the thread. Those entries show details and variations of the items I could take pictures of in my own collection, or that Mersenne6 had in his collection.
Lets start with the small sized freights
Lionel 651 flatcar and American Flyer 3046
Lionel 652 Gondola and American Flyer 3016 Sand Car
Lionel 653 Hopper and American Flyer 3019 Dump Car
While these two cars are not exactly of the same design they do serve similar functions and both of them have added play value because they both have a manual operation function.
The 653 was Lionel's 8 wheel version which was cataloged in this color through 1939.
I have very little American Flyer and thought I would post this. I would guess later twenties for the production years. I you can tell me anything,it would be aoppreciated.
I can offer no information, except that the roof from this car was put on an 801 Lionel caboose from 1915 somewhere along the line in our family. I finally corrected that this year and now have the roof made by AF as a leftover family heirloom. The AF roof is similar to a Marklin but differs in the size of the roof dimples and the contoures of the end slopes. I have noticed an article from TCA publication that showed a similar car along with a baggage car led by a cast metal wind-up 0-4-0 American outline steam engine and tinplate tender. Time frame about 1913. my dad was born in 1908, and I in 1942. I vaugely remember a wind-up loco, but can't be sure if it was the same as in the article published within the last year. other research seems to indicate the same or similar up to the mid 20's.
It's a lot earlier than that - check pp.10 and 18 of this thread for more information/pictures
Dub I have very little American Flyer and thought I would post this. I would guess later twenties for the production years. I you can tell me anything,it would be aoppreciated.
Dub,
Your car is sometimes referred to as one of the "Lightning Bolt" or "Sparks" cars. The pattern of the lithography was first introduced in 1918 and refers to the sparks or lightning bolts that are at both ends of the name board and the design of three lightning bolts beneath the windows.
The Greenberg guide indicates that the Lightning bolt cars numbered 1206, as your car is, are from the early 1920's. Your car looks as if it has Type II, eight wheel trucks, which were used from 1914-1924. A car that is very similar to yours is illustrated in the Greenberg guide on page 125, although the lithography is just slightly different - the windows on that car have an additional yellow center to the windows on the doors.
The entries on pages 11 and 18 that Mersenne6 mentions show some additional pictures.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Lionel 654 Tank Car and American Flyer 3018 Tank Car
Lionel 655 Box Car and American Flyer 3015 Box Car
Good evening,
I have been following this thread for some time and find it very interesting even though I am not an American Flyer collector, nor even a prewar collector. I am a volunteer at the TCA library and have been cataloging photographs for quite some time in anticipation of the future posting on line of the TCA collection. I wanted to let the contributors to this thread know that TCA welcomes and appreciates contributions of photographs such as those posted on this thread. If anyone is interested in making such a contribution, please contact me via an email and I will respond with further information.
I don't think I am violating any forum rules in posting this, but if so please let me know.
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