January 22, 2008 - January 22, 2019
Celebrating
11
years
of
Pre War American Flyer Pictures
Eleven years! Where has the time gone? How did it get to be the time for me to wish all of us another Happy Annniversary? It seems appropriate that as I sit writing this it is a cold and snowy night here in Wisconsin just as it was 11 years ago when I wrote the first entry in this thread. The snow is falling and it feels good to be safe and warm sitting in my train room listening to the clatter of tin wheels on tinplate track.
I am thankful for the opportunity to partcipate in this wonderful hobby and to share it with a knowledgeable and friendly group of people. One of the highlights of this past year was the opportunity to go to York in October. I met several of the folks who contribute here regularly. I travelled with NationWideLines and we talked American Flyer almost non-stop on the drive. Thanks NWL for a great trip. I finally met mersenne6 who has been an invaluble resource and contributor. I also met folks who read the thread but haven't taken the plunge and contributed yet. One of the most interesting experiences was walking through the Halls at York and seeing things I had only read about in books. I wore my TCA generated name tag, but I added my name here, Northwoods Flyer, to it. As I walked the halls and stopped at tables, several times I heard "Northwoods Flyer! Are you the guy who hosts the thread on the CTT website?" I smiled a lot, talked a lot, and met numerous new friends. I guess I am notorious. I added items to the collection while I was at York. Some of them I have already posted. I will post more in the coming year.
Once again I want to thank Kalmbach for allowing this thread to run for these 11 years. What a great ride. It makes me excited to think about what we will discover this year. And thanks to all of you who contribute. I look forward to checking on this thread every morning to see what new photos and interesting bits of information have been posted or what question needs to be researched.
So it is 11 years. I've been wondering what photos I would could post this year. I decided on posting the Type XI tender. While American Flyer didn't use that label for it, it is a designation that the Greenberg Guide uses for this tender.
And it is part of my favorite engine tender combination - The Hiawatha
The Type XI tender is sleek and fits well with streamlined engines.
And if you stand them on end next to each other and squint they look like the #11.
Join me in the new year of gathering and posting information, and asking questions.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
One would hope there is some way to capture this entire thread and do something like publish it!
Regards, Roy
Accessories.....
Here is a more unusual accessory, the 209 Telegraph Pole.
Ok, nothing unusual about the ones above, but how were they packaged?
The box is stamped 1/2 Dozen in the upper left corner (or Lower Right, when viewed upside down).
To me, the most interesting observation is that the label for the 209 Telegraph Poles, which is largely missing, was pasted over the label for a Danger Signal. I have never observed a box of 6 Danger Signals, but I have seen at least 2 other boxed sets of 6 Telegraph Poles, one an early set like the ones I have and the other a late set, which were the stamped sheetmetal telegraph poles.
NWL
truly a work of art
Accessories
#2010 Double Arc Light
Do you have one particular type of engine or car or accessory that you like more than others? Over the years I have come to realize that I have a fondness for streetlights. I have managed to gather quite a few of them from a variety of manufacturers. Two that have eluded me over the years are the #2009 and the #2010. At the Fall 2018 York I finally found a #2010 Double Arc Light within the first 10 minutes of browsing at the Wyndham.
I have always been fascinated by the fancy filigree work on the top section.
Greenberg dates it as being available Circa 1920 - 1926
along with its single lamp sibling the #2009.
It is a fairly tall lamp but can be used with either Wide or Narrow gauge as this photo illustrates.
I am still looking for a #2009, but as usually happens, in short order I found a second #2010 to keep the first one company. That satisfied my other goal of having at least a pair of the examples of streetlights that I have.
The hunt continues.
Hmmmm....now things get really interesting. I went upstairs and checked the set and the spare car. The tender on my set does indeed have a butterfly coupler. Both cars match with respect to frame, body and coupler. The car couplers are Type 4a. which, according to Greenberg is consistent with 1914.
Even though I didn't win the engine/tender combination to go with the second car I did keep a screen shot of them. It turns out I was so focused on the cars that I didn't really look at the engine and tender. A check of the screen shot indicates the engine matches mine however the tender is a #328 with the shorter black frame ... and the coupler on the rear of the tender looks like a Type V. It is definitely not a IVb with the extra bend at the bottom of the hook. If Greenberg is correct, the Type V dates from 1918. I guess I really don't know what to make of the tender differences. What I do know is I wish I had put in a higher bid for the engine and tender...
mersenne6 American Flyer’s use of leftover parts inventory The set below looks very much like Flyer’s set M0 from 1914. However, in 1914 Flyer introduced a new litho treatment for the passenger car body style with a car number of 102 and a new frame. Greenberg has designated the new frame Type III. The frame on the car in the picture is a Type III but the car body is the older Chicago litho style which does not match the 102 litho nor the window treatment of that car. I purchased this set about 9 years ago, added it to my collection and didn’t think much more about it. Sometime later as I was looking at the set it occurred to me the Chicago car didn’t look quite right. I pulled out my copy of the Greenberg Guide to pre-war American Flyer and was somewhat surprised to find this car was not listed and, based on the guide, shouldn’t even exist. With this in mind I took a closer look at my car and found small skid mark indentations on the underside of the frame which radiated out from each of the body tabs which were bent to hold body and frame together. The set is/was like new so I thought it odd someone would have taken a perfectly new Chicago car and installed it on a 1914 frame but then people do make changes even to brand new items all the time so perhaps someone had done just this back when the set was new. A few years back a west coast seller put a set exactly like mine up for bid on e-bay. He split the train set into two separate auctions – engine/tender and the car. I tried to win both but was outbid on the engine/tender combination. When the car arrived the first thing I did was turn it over to check its assembly. Just like the others it had assembly skid marks. The fact that I had purchased my set in the east and the car above came from the west coast got me to wondering about the how and why of this car. One car – a home modification, two cars on almost opposite sides of the country…well, maybe there was more than one person who didn’t like the 1914 102 car and decided to do something about it. On the other hand maybe it was something else. About a year after purchasing the above car I found another fairly beat up example at a local train meet. A check of the underside showed the same build skid marks. Time passed, I found other examples both at meets and in other collections. My current count for the number of cars of this type is 11. As attested to by trains in numerous collections American Flyer was well known for using old parts inventory on trains of later manufacture. A single example of this car could easily be attributed to a home modification but when the count reaches 11 and the cars are present in collections in a number of different states the odds of home modification dwindle to almost zero. This, in turn, would argue either Flyer or one of their customers set up a manual assembly line and turned out as many cars as there were leftover bodies. At this late date, the only way to be absolutely certain that this happened would be to find a boxed M0 set with the contents shown above.
Mersenne6,
Thanks for posting this. I don't think there is much of a question that Flyer made the Chicago cars with the frame as you have shown. I think it is just due to the fact that they ran out of frames before they ran out of bodies. I have one of the early wooden tank cars, which is on the same frame, even though the Greenberg's guide shows the same tank on the similar style frame on the early 4 window Chicago cars.
To me the most interesting item in your set is the 328 tender with the orange/red frame. I would have suspected that would be an earlier era tender than 1914. I know the early Chicago cars and 328 tenders with odd color frames are typically early production and after a certain point they become black painted frames. However, I know the orange/red framed 328 tender is a later tender due to it having a butterfly style coupler (if I remember correctly).
3007 Sand Car
I know that this car has been posted before on the thread. I recently got my first one to add to the collection and thought I would share it.
The Greenberg guide lists this as version (A) Union Pacific. The #3007 was cataloged from 1925 -1927, but this version only appeared in 1925 - 1926.
There are three other variations of this car listed. The hunt goes on.
Sherman (NationWideLines),
I think most of us would like to take a ride (or several) on the Wayback Machine. Just imagine all of the goodies we could find, and the questions we could find answers to. Nice find on the Brigadier set.
#2018 Block Signal Lights
When NWL and I were at York back in October he found one of these signals and pointed it out to me. It was missing its light hoods and the paint was in very rough condition. I debated about buying it for a while, because I didn't have one in the collection and they don't come up very often. In the end I decided to pass on it. Instead I came across a repainted one recently and in one of the rare examples of adding a repaint to the collection, I snapped it up.
The Greenberg guide lists it as being cataloged in 1925 - 1926 but does not have a picture or an illustration of it.
These are from the 1925 catalog page of accessories.
Most of the time when I have seen examples of the #2018 they are missing the light hoods, or they have been replaced with Lionel switch light covers. This one has two original Flyer hoods.
And with the bulbs lighted.
I guess this car just shows that some items don't stand the test of time. At 111 years old, the litho is peeling/flaking off the body of the car, which renders it to the parts bin.
Yesterday, Mr. Peabody and I fired up the wayback machine and went back to 1934 to pick up this beauty!
The Brigadier, first cataloged in 1934, is a freight set consisting of 3315 engine and tender, 3046 log car, 3019 dump car, 3018 Air Service tank car, and 3017 caboose.
Sherman
Northwoods,
I had never keyed into how the observation cars look different due to the observation platform and the cuts required to make it.
But yes, there is only a single stamping to make a car, using 2 identical halves.
Oddly, the only Flyer item that I am aware of that had 2 different halves to create a car is the 5-window standard gauge caboose. In order to have the window configuration match, there had to be 2 different halves, each with two windows on one side of the center plate and 3 windows on the other side of the center plate, but configured so that when the car was assembled that the window configuration matched up on both sides of the car. That is likely why the 5 window caboose is very rare, Flyer figured out quickly that the two individual halves were more costly and/or time consuming to put together than two identical halves.
Great posts on the Illini cars guys. The variations on these cars and how they were marketed in sets is difficult to keep track of. At least it is for me. Something was rumbling in the back of my mind after I posted my set with the brown door baggage. Something just didn't seem right in the comparison of the observation cars.
This is NWL's observation
This is mine:
I didn't notice it at first because the cars are sitting in opposite directions. But look at what happens when I reverse the direction of my observation:
Now it matches the order of the windows of NWL's set, and the set that he posted that has the same same trucks as my observation.
So the explanation must be that there was only one lithographed side for these cars, but it was cut differently when it was used for the observation, making the order of the car windows appear to be different on each side.
mersenne6 NWL - the 3195 was a good guess. Way back before I was into taking pictures of train sets and formally documenting what I had seen, a collector I knew had purchased that same set from its original owner. There were no boxes and no one could remember the circumstances of the purchase but they did insist the set was as purchased.
NWL - the 3195 was a good guess. Way back before I was into taking pictures of train sets and formally documenting what I had seen, a collector I knew had purchased that same set from its original owner. There were no boxes and no one could remember the circumstances of the purchase but they did insist the set was as purchased.
I admit to being puzzled by the set when I first purchased it. I bought it at an estate or garage sale over 20 years ago, as just the tender and cars. One of my friends later confirmed it as being a set and sent me a copy of the page similar to the one Northwoods posted. I believe my friend has a boxed set that is identical.
I know the seller of my 1929 7011 set indicated that he could recall going to Montgomery Ward's warehouse in Chicago and picking the set up with his parents.
Since Northwoods posted about both late Illini cars and Montgomery Ward sets, I thought I would post photos of these three sets, all Montgomery Ward sets.
First, is my late 7011 engine and late Illini cars.
Next up is my early 7011 engine and Illini cars.
There are two obvious differences between the two above sets. First the different color trucks on the cars, where there are black painted trucks on the early cars and gray painted trucks on the late cars. Second, are differences in the engines. The early engine has gold lettering and track trip reverse and the late engine has white lettering and a reverse lever sticking up through the top of the engine. Here are some close ups of the engines.
Here is the late engine
Here is the early engine
Lastly, Northwoods mentioned a set pulled by a steam engine. This is one of the Montgomery Ward steam engine illini sets. I acquired these cars and tender (no engine) together and based on the tender, put a 3195 engine with the set.
Great post! I have studied the Illini car set variations and, as you saw when visiting, I have numerous variations of the Illini cars. I am not sure how late these cars were sold, but the steam engine set, suggests at least through 1932, as the die cast steam engine in that set was not introduced until 1932.
Here is another late Illini set on gray trucks.
Note that this set features the two-tone green 3115, which features four 3115 number plates and no American Flyer plates. This set was likely done for a retailer, possibly Wards or Penney's, who wanted no visible indication of who manufactured the set.
Also the set of cars features all of the arched windows punched out. I am not sure why some of the late sets feature unpunched vs punched out windows, but realize that the reason is likely due to the Nation Wide Lines cars not featuring the arched windows in these locations and the windows in these locations not being punched out. So the dies for punching out the Illini cars were changed to remove the punching out of the windows. So the question is, were the bodies with punched out windows on cars featuring gray trucks produced before or after 1929? (the theoretical date of the NWL blue cars being produced). I cannot answer this, but it may be that Flyer made a large run of the lithographed bodies for these cars c. 1928-1929, a point which the cars were not being featured in the catalogs, and then continued to use up the parts in special sets for a number of years afterward.
I have one more late Illini set on gray trucks, but have not photographed it. So I will have to get some pictures tomorrow and post them. It is a slightly earlier set than the other two I have, as it has the trucks similar to your observation car (I forget the descriptive type at the moment).
Several entries back when we were discussing Type X engines NationWideLines posted the following uncataloged set. What caught my eye was the late Illini cars.
Nationwidelines Here is a more unusual version, which I believe dates to 1932. It is a 3357 Locomotive, which does not appear in the Greenberg's Guides. The number appears on the original engine box, which came with the set/engine. This engine/tender came with a set of late Illini cars, which were uncataloged at the time the set was made. The cars feature gray trucks and are one of the latest sets of Illini cars that I have observed. NWL
Here is a more unusual version, which I believe dates to 1932.
It is a 3357 Locomotive, which does not appear in the Greenberg's Guides. The number appears on the original engine box, which came with the set/engine.
This engine/tender came with a set of late Illini cars, which were uncataloged at the time the set was made. The cars feature gray trucks and are one of the latest sets of Illini cars that I have observed.
About the time that he posted this set I spotted a similar set on ebay. I put a relatively low bid out and got it.
I believe the set is original because all of the cars have about the same amount of wear and they "feel" right together.
I started to do some research on the cars and discovered a few interesting things about them. And I compared them to NationWideLines set.
Lets start with the #3000 Railway Post Office
NWL's car has dark green doors (from an earlier version of the Illini cars)
Mine has brown doors, which I suspect come from the Columbia cars.
Greenberg does not list a variation with dark green doors. (a previously undocumented variation?) Variation (I) describes my brown door variation:
"...unlighted; four brown doors with die-cast handles; Type VIIIa trucks without journals; Type VII couplers."
#3001 Pullman
NWL's car
My car
We both have variation (I):
"...green frame; arched windows unpunched; Type VIIIa trucks without journals; Type VIIa couplers."
#3001 Observation
NWL's observation does not completely match any of the variations listed in the Greenberg guide.
His car has a medium green body, roof and frame, brass plated platform and brass plated steps at both ends, all windows are punched out, Type VIIIa trucks and Type VIIa couplers.
My car does not completely match any of the variations listed in Greenberg either.
My car has medium green body, roof, and frame, brass-plated platform and brass steps at both ends, arched windows not punched out, Type VIIa couplers and what I believe to be Type VIb trucks without journals.
Some of the variations in the observation cars are minor, and I am not sure they should be considered real variations, but they are pieces that have come from the factory and do not appear to be altered. Are they the result of Flyer cleaning out the stock in the factory?
More to come....
Nationwidelines #97 Station Here is an early #97 Station. It appears to date to late 1924 or early 1925, based on date codes on the labels. I know that this type of box is early, likely from 1924. A couple of interesting features of the station, the doors are not cutout, there appear to have been window inserts in the front and back of the station at one time, and the windows on the end are not punched out. NWL
#97 Station
Here is an early #97 Station. It appears to date to late 1924 or early 1925, based on date codes on the labels.
I know that this type of box is early, likely from 1924.
A couple of interesting features of the station, the doors are not cutout, there appear to have been window inserts in the front and back of the station at one time, and the windows on the end are not punched out.
Great find NWL! The variations just keep coming. Given the condition of that almost 100 year old box and condition of the station itself, I just have to wonder where it has spent all of these years.
Keep up the hunt.
LL675 I think I need to start thinking about looking for a Flyer steamer to pull these.
I think I need to start thinking about looking for a Flyer steamer to pull these.
JamesDill I have this exact set from 1938 and a color movie of it running around my 6 year old mother's Christmas tree in 1938. I also have the individual boxes for the cars. It was gift for my mother that year but really it was the depression and a guy needed $5 dollars for something so my grandfather offered to gift it to him. The man refused the charity and instead offered to sell him the new train set. Mine works perfectly but is in rough shape. My Mom and her older brothers played with it during their childhood and then it was handed to my 3 brothers and me and we played with it hard. My Dad bought me a lionel missle launch set in 1969 and sent the Flyer to a friends for reconditioning (new wheels). It is very popular around the Christmas tree every year. The only problem is it only has two speeds "Off" and "Full Speed" and it doesn't love FasTrack. It is nice to see another set like it thanks for the pictures! Jim
I have this exact set from 1938 and a color movie of it running around my 6 year old mother's Christmas tree in 1938. I also have the individual boxes for the cars. It was gift for my mother that year but really it was the depression and a guy needed $5 dollars for something so my grandfather offered to gift it to him. The man refused the charity and instead offered to sell him the new train set. Mine works perfectly but is in rough shape. My Mom and her older brothers played with it during their childhood and then it was handed to my 3 brothers and me and we played with it hard. My Dad bought me a lionel missle launch set in 1969 and sent the Flyer to a friends for reconditioning (new wheels). It is very popular around the Christmas tree every year. The only problem is it only has two speeds "Off" and "Full Speed" and it doesn't love FasTrack. It is nice to see another set like it thanks for the pictures!
Jim
Jim,
to the thread and thanks for sharing the story of your family Zephyr. Being able to hear stories like yours is one of the reasons that I started this thread. Its exciting to see NationWideLines' very unique Zephyr on display as a paprt of the Museum's display too.
I also have a set that sounds like the one that you have.
It isn't a family piece, but it is one that I acquired early in my collecting career.
I grew up in Chicago and made many trips to the Museum of Science and Industry where the Pioneer Zephyr was on display. It has always had a special place in my memories.
Back in 1984 the Museum had a special celebration of the 50th anniversary of the Pioneer Zephyr.
The above poster was a promotional item for the display and celebration. I didn't get back to Chicago to see the display until late in September. By that time all of the copies of the poster at the museum gift shop were sold out. This is the poster that was still hanging in the gift shop on display and it had gotten quite beat up. I talked the person at the counter into letting me buy it, but instead of having to pay for it, he just gave it to me. I had it mounted at a framing shop and while it is a bit rough, it has its own unique story.
My father worked for the Railway Postal Service. He started riding the RPO cars out of Chicago in 1929. So I also have an interest in the Postal Service and the transportation of mail by train. Some time ago I added a piece of mail that was carried on the Zephyr on its inaugural run in 1934 to the collection.
And just for the record, American Flyer also made a sheet metal version of the Zephyr.
It seems like there is always something new to add to the collection.
Dave,
The 43224 / 432 (same casting used on 43226 / 435) is prone to warpage and zinc pest, including the smokestacks and sand domes. Also the front marker lights on these engines tend to break off.
The Hudsons do not seem to have any issues, other than with the lead and trailing wheels, and sometimes the drive wheels.
Good luck on your search.
Thanks Greg, Is there any trouble items to watch for...zinc pest, hard to find/$$ parts on the Prewar Flyer steam?
If you are looking for a steamer to pull them, I would recommend either the 1680 Hudson or a 43224 / 432 Atlantic, because the larger drive wheels look great when running these engines.
these showed up at my door yesterday.
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