Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer

strainst,

Nice find on the set!  As I posted before I passed up a set of the cars because I didn't think they were a real variation.  I have since learned my lesson.  I guess that is what happens when you don't have evey entry in the Greenberg Guide memorized.    I look forward to seeing the rest of Part 2.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

I was able to finish Part 2.  I will have Part 3 tomorrow with additional pictures of the passenger, baggage, and obstervation cars.

strainst

[Northwoods Flyer]

strainst,

Nice find on the set!  As I posted before I passed up a set of the cars because I didn't think they were a real variation.  I have since learned my lesson.  I guess that is what happens when you don't have evey entry in the Greenberg Guide memorized.    I look forward to seeing the rest of Part 2.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer    The Red Roofed Set (Part 2)

 

The locomotive for the set is a cast iron Type III No. 3197.  It is the later version with one of the domes removed, the rivets around the remaining dome removed, the window design changed, the cab roof extends farther back, and the highlighting color has changed to yellow.

The tender is the same Champion Type II No. 3181 with fake back-up light.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When looking this set over, I noticed on the bottom of the locomotive, there was a dot of red paint on the fiber board next to the rear collector.  The red paint looks to be a match the color of the roofs.  Was this a marking used by American Flyer to denote that this locomotive was supposed to go with a red roofed set?

Part 3 will have additional pictures of the passenger cars.

strainst

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer    The Red Roofed Set (Part 1)

I have tried to post this a couple of times and have been unsuccessful.  Maybe I had too many pictures attached, so this time I will post the Part 1 with general over pictures.

I just recently, within the last two months, came across this set with the red roofs.   I knew of its existence and was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.  The individual I received the set from lives in Organ.  I asked if he had any history on the set.  It has been in his collection for several years and he purchased at an antique mall in Vancouver, Washingtion.   There several differences between the orange roofed set and the red roofed set.  See the posting The Red Set (Part 2)

 

 

strainst

[strainst]

mersenne6

strainst, you say you dug out your pictures of your set - so does this mean you have a set box with a number for the set?  If you do, I'd love to know the set ID.

 Sorry, no set box.  I would love to see a set in the original set box.  When I dug the pictures of the set out, I used that term to mean to find the pictures I have on my hard drive.

 

strainst

[mersenne6]

strainst, you say you dug out your pictures of your set - so does this mean you have a set box with a number for the set?  If you do, I'd love to know the set ID.

[Nationwidelines]

I would guess that in order to save space, the Greenberg's guide only showed 1 coach.  The guide was not intended to show sets, rather it was designed to show variations, so there was no need to show the additional coach.  

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

 

[/quote]

strainst

Northwoods Flyer

I dug out the photos of my orange roofed American Flyer set.  In all of the photos of the baggage cars for this set posted on this site, the roof and the doors are painted orange.  When I looked at my set, my roof is painted orange but the doors are painted green.  I thought maybe somewhere in the past; the body was switched out for some reason???  I did notice while looking at the pictures, my baggage body is a bit darker than the passenger cars and the observation.  When I went back to the photos posted originally, the first picture is an image of the page in Schuweiler’s book.

 

Edit

 

 

In that photo showing the cars for this set, that baggage also has green doors, so maybe my set is ok!

The locomotive and tender for my set (AF 617-614 Type XIX Loco w/ 3181 Type II Tender):

 

My baggage car:

 

I think that your baggage with the green door is a legitimate variation.  I have seen others, but I don't have one yet.

 

Schuweiler's book on O gauge Pre-War American Flyer shows one passenger car, mersenne6 posting shows one passenger car, but Northwoods posting shows two passenger cars.  I guessing this set could have had one or two passenger cars when it was released.   My set has two passenger cars.

All o

strainst

 

 

 

My set came to me with the two passenger coaches, but I have not idea if that is how it started out its life.  I suspect that they were marketed as both 3 and 4 car sets.

 

 I'm glad to see that there was a 4 car set with squared roofs.

The search continues. 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

[strainst]

Nationwidelines

Strainst,

Set 1221 was cataloged between 1921 and 1926.  

During the period from 1921-1924 the set was comprised of a 1218 engine, 1200 series baggage car, two coaches, a #90 station, semaphore, and tunnel.

Between 1925 and 1926 the set came with a 3011 engine, baggage, coach, observation, mail bag set, #90 station, semaphore, and tunnel.

As for number 1F3389 that is a Butler Brothers number that corresponds to years 1925 (and possibly 1926, as my data source does not contain the info for 1926).  The Butler Brothers number for years 1921-1924 was simply F3389.

Since it is a Butler Brothers number, I can say that the items contained within the set would match the items described by American Flyer for that set.

NWL

 

Thanks NWL, I need to slow down when looking for set numbers and the years they were used.  I did find a couple of images of the set from 1925-6 from a Stout Auction listing for their 5/15/2010 auction.  this set looks like it was missing the tunnel.

 

strainst

 

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer

I dug out the photos of my orange roofed American Flyer set.  In all of the photos of the baggage cars for this set posted on this site, the roof and the doors are painted orange.  When I looked at my set, my roof is painted orange but the doors are painted green.  I thought maybe somewhere in the past; the body was switched out for some reason???  I did notice while looking at the pictures, my baggage body is a bit darker than the passenger cars and the observation.  When I went back to the photos posted originally, the first picture is an image of the page in Schuweiler’s book.  In that photo showing the cars for this set, that baggage also has green doors, so maybe my set is ok!

The locomotive and tender for my set (AF 617-614 Type XIX Loco w/ 3181 Type II Tender):

My baggage car:

Schuweiler's book on O gauge Pre-War American Flyer shows one passenger car, mersenne6 posting shows one passenger car, but Northwoods posting shows two passenger cars.  I guessing this set could have had one or two passenger cars when it was released.   My set has two passenger cars.

Second passenger car:

Here is the obstervation:

 

All of these cars have Type VIII(a) trucks and Type VII(b) or (c) couplers.

[“As I mentioned a few posts back I have been putting together a set of the green litho orange roofed passenger cars.  I have the cars with the rounded roofs with ventilator bumps.  The set I am working on has the squared roofs with ventilator bumps.” Northwoods Flyer]

These cars all have the square ends roofs. 

The observation car has a green end with a white canopy with no signage on the observation railing.

strainst

 

 

 

[Nationwidelines]

Strainst,

Set 1221 was cataloged between 1921 and 1926.  

During the period from 1921-1924 the set was comprised of a 1218 engine, 1200 series baggage car, two coaches, a #90 station, semaphore, and tunnel.

Between 1925 and 1926 the set came with a 3011 engine, baggage, coach, observation, mail bag set, #90 station, semaphore, and tunnel.

As for number 1F3389 that is a Butler Brothers number that corresponds to years 1925 (and possibly 1926, as my data source does not contain the info for 1926).  The Butler Brothers number for years 1921-1924 was simply F3389.

Since it is a Butler Brothers number, I can say that the items contained within the set would match the items described by American Flyer for that set.

NWL

[strainst]

I came across this set box several weeks ago.  The set box is stamped 1221.  When I looked it up I found this set list for just one year, 1926.  After I received the box, I saw it also has another set number stamp on the same end as the 1221 stamp.  It is either IF3389 of 1F3389.  Is this a set sold by Montgomery Ward?  Do you think it had the same contents as the 1221 set?

Box Front

Here is the side with the stamps.

Any thought?

 

strainst

 

[strainst]

While searching for the American Flyer 2009 Single Arc Lights, I was also on the lookout for the 2010 Double Arc Lights.  Most of the 2010 I found were more than I wanted to spend, but eventually I found one and purchased it.  Now I had the three versions of the 2009 Single Arc Lights and the Double Arc Light that was listed in Schuweiler’s “Greenberg’s Guide to American Flyer Wide Gauge.”  Like Northwoods Flyer, I like to have at least two of each of the different versions.  I kept looking at these lights as I would see them at shows and on the internet.  I found the second Double Arc Light at an auction on line.  There was one lot of five Standard Gauge Lamp Posts in this auction.  This lot was the only toy train lot in the whole auction.  I submitted a bid and I was the lucky winner of the lot.  When I received it, I noticed right away, it was different than the one I already had.  I went to Schuweiler’s book and could not find it in the book.

The first 2010 Double Arc Light is the same version Northwoods Flyer posted.  This version is very much like Version (b) of the Single Arc light.

 

 

This version of the Double Arc Light seems closely related to the third version of the Single Arc Light.  The wire that goes to the lamp socket no longer goes through part of the filigree and the uses of clips to connect to power wires has replaced the two screw posts used in the previous version.   Unfortunately this lamp post is packed away, but if I remember correctly, I think this light post is shorter than the previous version.  If I can lay my hands on it soon, I will update this fact.  There is no reference of this version of the 2010 Double Arc Light in Schuweiler’s reference book.

This leads to the question; if there are versions of the Double Arc Light that a line with versions ‘B’ and ‘C’ of the Single Arc Light, is there one that would a line with version ‘A’ of the Single Arc Light? 

strainst

 

[Nationwidelines]

I can only guess this was produced late on a Friday or early on a Monday.

 

Here it is side by side with a normal variation.

The obvious difference is that the center piece goes up and down on the odd variation, rather than across.  Less obvious is that the lithograph in its entirety is rotated from the original version, so that the only way to read it correctly is to mount it in the manner that it is mounted.  The face of the sign is also punched with rivet holes to mount it the correct way.  

Interesting that there is no center writing/lithograph.  I wonder if this version was produced before or after the version that has the center American Flyer lettering?

Oh, and I should note that I have seen at least one other of these odd variations.

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

strainst,

Great job on finding all three variations.  

I tip my hat to you.

You have great determination, and it has paid off.  I haven't seen that many of the 2009 to remember the variations.  I'm looking forward to your post on the 2010.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer 

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer

Accessories - Update

#2009 Arc Light and

#2010 Double Arc Light

As I posted back a page, street lights are my favorite accessory to collect. In the previous post I was on the hunt for an example of the #2009 Arc Light.

Well I found it.

 

In fact I found two; from different sources.

 

The colors are different and I suspect that the one on the left is a repaint, but a very old repaint.

Here are the #2009 and the #2010 together.

I was surprised to see the difference in size.

Their catalog illustration shows a slight difference in size and I guess I never bothered to read the descriptions of each of them which indicates an almost 2" difference in height.

 

A comparison of the filigree on each:

And here is a family photo:

On the new layout I hope to have a Wide Gauge and a Narrow Gauge section.  These will look great with one of the stations.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

Northwoods Flyer

The American Flyer 2009 Single Arc Light and 2010 Double Arc Light have always been a favorite of mine also.  I first came across of the Single Arc Light on eBay back in 2000.   I was able to find one that I could afford in 2001.  After getting one, I went to Schuweiler’s “Greenberg’s Guide to American Flyer Wide Gauge” to find out the history of the light post.  I found that there a three versions of the 2009 Single Arc Light.  The one I had obtained was Version ‘B’, which turned out to be the common one that I have found of the three versions.  The hunt was on.  It took many, many years to find examples of the other two versions.

Here is 2009, Version A with an early bulb.  Notice the filigree; the ends have curved hooks instead of tying into the main curved frame.

  

 

 

Here is Version B.  American Flyer, in this version, removed the hook ends and tied the filigree in the main curved frame. Of all of the ones I have come across and seen on the internet, this version seems to be the most prevalent.

 

The last version, Version ‘C’, American Flyer removed the small casted spur the wire went through after exiting the lamp post and before tying into the lamp socket at the top of the shade.  They also changed how they connected the power wires to this accessory.  Instead of using two screw posts, you now used two clips.

 

My next post will deal with the American Flyer 2010 Double Arc Light.

 

strainst

[Nationwidelines]

3110's

The 3110 engines are listed in the Greenberg's guide as being produced in 1928-1929 & 1931.  This engine body is an updated version of the 1201/1218 engine, which features the addition of brass name/number plates.

Greenberg's lists version A as having a dark green body, gold window trim and grills, oval plates with 3110 and American Flyer Lines on each side and red painted pilots.  Pictured below is an example of version A.

Greenbergs listes verion B as the same as version A, but with black body.  Pictured below is an example of version B

One difference in the example I have is that there are no 3110 plates, but instead 4 American Flyer plates.

Version C is listed as Red Body, 2 American Flyer Lines plates on each side (ie 4 American Flyer Lines plates), hole in each door for motor lubrication.  Below is an example of version C.

However, it appears that there are other variations that are not listed in Greenbergs.  

The red engine pictured below, features a 3103 frame, which has cast iron cow catchers instead of the sheetmetal cow catchers of the 3110.  This engine is rubberstamed on the bottom with 3110 and Sold as Shopworn.

The last variation is assumed to be a 3110, based on the brass trim and sheetmetal frame with sheetmetal cow catchers.  The body appears to have been produced in between versions 2 and 3, as there are no holes in the sides for motor lubrication.

As for the color, it is 100% original, no repaints, has paint filled grilles, gold overspray on the inside of the body.  The motor appeared to have never been taken apart, until I disassembled it for cleaning and wheel replacement.  

Here is a grouping of the color variations.

NWL

 

 

 

 

[LL675]

those are a thing of beauty!

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories - Update

#2009 Arc Light and

#2010 Double Arc Light

As I posted back a page, street lights are my favorite accessory to collect. In the previous post I was on the hunt for an example of the #2009 Arc Light.

Well I found it.

 

In fact I found two; from different sources.

 

The colors are different and I suspect that the one on the left is a repaint, but a very old repaint.

Here are the #2009 and the #2010 together.

I was surprised to see the difference in size.

Their catalog illustration shows a slight difference in size and I guess I never bothered to read the descriptions of each of them which indicates an almost 2" difference in height.

 

A comparison of the filigree on each:

And here is a family photo:

On the new layout I hope to have a Wide Gauge and a Narrow Gauge section.  These will look great with one of the stations.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

 Thanks for the clarification Malcom.

I decided to bring both of the posts on page 71 dealing with the Lionel set closer to your response. And thanks for the identification.

dougdagrump

Hi Greg.

My BetterHalf surprised me some years back with a prewar Lionel set and those happened to be in the same trunk. Unfortunately time has really taken a toll on the set. The engine wiring insulation is disintegrating as well as other problems with the cars.

 

 

Doug,

Is that at #252?  I have a smattering of pre war Lionel in the collection, but I am by no means an expert.  I justify owning Lionel by telling myself I should have some examples of the products of the other manufacturers for comparison.

 

Greg, You are correct as to that being a 252, believe it was designated as Olive Green model( just had to use the olive green text). If memory is correct these were in production from 1931+/- til 1936. Hopefully one of these years I'll break down and get the whole set refurbished, the loco has seen rough times as well as the passenger cars that make up the set. The outer box is in pretty good shape for it's age but the inner boxes are missing some end flaps but are still legible. It will give me something to do when I get older. 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Malcolm Laughlin]

Actually I was answering a question about a Lionel set that had a photo on your p. 70.  But that ought to be a separate thread.  I'm about to start that elsewhere following up on a weekend tinplate post.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Malcolm,

It sounds like you are describing some Lionel equipment.  Did this get posted to the wrong thread?

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Malcolm Laughlin]

 I ran across this one as I was browsing the collection from page 70 on after looking at the index.  With the help of Greenberg's new O gauge book, we can pin down the year more closely.

The journal boxes on the cars make it 1928 or later.  I’m not sure from the photos, but it looks like your cars have red inserts.  Greenberg shows those for 1928 and 1929 and that the last year for light olive was 1926-26 and 1931. 

The 252 was in light olive with a passenger set until 1929.  Putting that all together, it looks as if you have set 294 from 1928 or 1929.

I notice a missing headlight.  You can get the parts for less than $10.00.  I’m putting one in a restoration job that I’m doing now.  It’s not difficult.

[Malcolm Laughlin]

Thanks.  I took a look at that, copied it to Word and now it's in my AF folder.

[RHicks309]

Thank you!  As for the tender, I already had an engine and tender, so it was surplus and went into the parts bin.  Here's what the train looks like:

I'm always looking on eBay for basket cases like this that can be acquired at low cost.  And while we're at it, this is what the mechanism for the whistling baggage car looked like:

It's pretty ugly.  This train must have been stored underwater.  Anyway, from left to right we have the DC relay, the reverser, and the whistle.  I was able to save 2/3 of it.  I gave up on the reverser and replaced it with a spare S gauge reverser, but the irreplaceable DC relay and the whistle itself could be made operational.  So it's a real favorite!

[Northwoods Flyer]

RHicks309

Hello, I'm another new member, and just as a test I'm hoping these pictures will show up.   Before and after.

Randall

 

RHicks309,

Randall its good to have you join us here on the thread.  Nice job on the restoration of the Royal Blue cars!  You are obviously a person who has the vision to see what is "not there" and picture "what could be".

Your work is top notch.  I see the tender in the "before" photo.  Have you restored it too? Did you get an engine with it as well?  

I think your work stands up quite well to an original.

Please show us more of your work.

Welcome Aboard

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

mersenne6,

Thanks for the reminder that you put together that index on accessories.  I edited that information into my post above, and here is a link to page 70.

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/116423.aspx?page=70

You have to scroll down almost to the bottom of the page to find it.

Enjoyng the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

Malcom, in the event that you have other questions about accessories , if you go over to page 70 of this thread about half way down the page is a post with a post page index for all of the accessories covered in the first 70 pages.

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods Flyer

Malcolm,

I see that you were able to post the photo and questions over on the OGR Tinplate Forum. I hope you won't mind that I am re-posting your photos here along with my response.

What you have is the Roadside Flashing Signal.

 

The Roadside Flashing Signal was given two numbers. Both the 2230 and the 4230 were cataloged 1928 - 1935.  They are not two different sizes.  The difference in the numbering indicated the size of the track that was included in the box.  The 2230 is for Narrow Gauge track and the 4230 is for Wide Gauge Track.  It is very difficult to find the lighted head in an undamaged condition.

Enjoying the World's GreatestHobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

Given the condition of the paint on the base and the condition of the paint on the head of the signal, I would guess the head of the signal is a reproduction.  However, it is hard to determine this without a close up of the head.  There are ways to tell if one compares an original to a reproduction.

NWL

[RHicks309]

Hello, I'm another new member, and just as a test I'm hoping these pictures will show up.   Before and after.

Randall