"OUR" PLACE - SEE NEW THREAD!

[coalminer3]

Good Afternoon All; Coffee and a sandwich, please; whatever the special of the day is, round for the house and $ for the mighty Wurlitzer. For our manager: I sent you an mial offline.

KCS - One of the last independents and always a target of speculation for the next round of mergermania.

The C&O car order information was useful, especially because it put all of it one place.
For those interested in such things, p. 138 of Karl Zimmermann's book on the 20th Century Limited has a color shot of The Commodore Vanderbilt in 1948; the entire train is NYC gray except for a Golden State Pullman off the Rock Island and right ahead of it a former C&O twin unit diner. This, of course, was in the days when we had true transcontinental Pullman service.

Well, I started looking around in the notebooks and here's something on C&O GP30s.

Great Howling Monsters - Chesapeake and Ohio’s GP30s

In October, 1961 General Motors’ Electro Motive Division (EMD) introduced a self-styled “revolutionary” new locomotive to its GP line. The new engine was the GP30.

The GP30 appeared as first generation units were reaching the end of their careers. These early diesel locomotives 1500 and 1800 horsepower. In the 1960s, however, American railroads went on a high horsepower binge as they began running freight trains on ever-faster schedules.

EMD hoped that the 2250 horsepower GP30 would fill the need of this expanding market. Contrary to what many believe, the GP30 was not the first supercharged EMD locomotive. That honor went to the 2000 horsepower GP20.

The GP30’s distinctive appearance with a high dynamic brake housing tapering into the locomotive’s long hood was a styling breakaway from earlier EMD cab units and GP types. The 30 also had some other new design features such as a low nose and a pressurized hood.

The GP30 internally was not much different from earlier models in EMD’s catalog. The power plant was a 16-cylinder EMD567D3 diesel engine, a model which had originally been used to power the SD24. In the case of the GP30, the engine was derated to 2250 horsepower.

From coupler face to coupler face the GP30 measured 56 feet 2 inches. It weighed approximately 131 tons. Customers buying 30s had a variety of options to choose from such as dynamic brakes, high short hoods, and steam generators. It was also available as a booster unit. EMD eventually sold 948 copies of the GP30 to 27 different railroads; 26 in the United Sates, and one in Canada.

The Reading Railroad received the first production GP30 in March, 1962. Union Pacific, as always dedicated to high horsepower diesels, owned the biggest fleet of GP30s (152 units - including EMD 1962, the GP30 demonstrator). The UP also owned the only GP30 booster units, and the only GP30s built with steam generators. Southern Pacific followed with 120 GP30s; Santa Fe had 85, and the Baltimore and Ohio 77. The Louisville and Nashville received the last GP30 in 1963. L&N 1014, one of 58 GP30s on the Old Reliable’s roster was the 25,000th diesel locomotive built by EMD.

EMD offered the GP30 as one of the first locomotives in its trade-in program. Under the terms of the trade-in plan, the manufacturer would accept (at terms favorable to them, of course) old locomotives in trade for new ones. The result was EMD’s production of some hybrid GP30s running on trucks that had formerly been on Alco FAs and RSs. Examples of GP30s on Alco trucks included the 30s that operated on the Gulf, Mobile and Ohio, Milwaukee Road, and the Soo Line.

The Chesapeake and Ohio swapped 14 BL2s as part of their order for 48 new GP30s which were delivered August, 1962 and August, 1963. The new 30s carried C&O road numbers 3000-3047. The railroad had EMD equip them with dynamic brakes, automatic train stop, and horns on both sides of their cabs. They had a 62:15 gear ratio which allowed a maximum speed of 71 miles per hour. Each unit weighed about 131 tons and generated 50 thousand pounds continuous tractive effort. As built, a C&O GP30 carried 26 gallons of fuel and 46 cubic feet of sand. They were equipped with the standard 27-point jumper cable for mu operation.

Delivery Dates for Chesapeake and Ohio GP30s

Number(s) Dates Delivered
3000 8/62
3001 10/62
3002-3015 12/62-1/63
3016-3017 8/63
3018-3047 8 – 10/63

The C&O’s GP30 fleet remained intact with six exceptions. The first of these occurred at Merlin, Ontario, in May of 1965 when C&O 3045 and 3047 wrecked along with a pair of GP35s. The wrecked 30s were sent to EMD and rebuilt into GP35s. The two rebuilds carried their old road numbers, but were eventually renumbered into C&O’s 3500 series. On October 18, 1976 a trio of GP30s (C&O 3003, 3005, and 3013 were wrecked and burned in an accident at Clifford, Michigan. These units were scrapped. The last wreck involving a C&O GP30 claimed engine 3042 when it was destroyed at Gera, Michigan on January 11, 1979.

Despite the GP30s powerful appearance, Chesapeake and Ohio engineers found them slippery and hard to handle, especially in mountainous areas. They ran all over the railroad, but eventually seemed to congregate in Michigan where the terrain and operating practices were more matched to their abilities.

The GP30s did not show up regularly in the coalfields until the late 1970s. They were the first turbocharged units to regularly appear at Raleigh, and the crews there started to calling them the “Great Howling Monsters” because of their size and distinctive sound when under load. The 3000s wandered off line now and then, and the author recalls seeing them somewhat regularly on the L&N’s Nashville Division in the early 1970s.

The railroad modified and rebuilt the GP30s over the years. Automatic Train Stop was removed after 1971. By the 1980s the 3000s were wearing out.

The C&O was now part of the Chessie System, and Chessie, after studying the situation, inaugurated a rebuild program for the GP30s. Most of the old 30s went through the shops and emerged as class GP30m locomotives.

The 30ms looked just about the same as the old GP30s except for a long slot cut in the battery box cover in the engineer’s side of the locomotive. Internally, though, the 30ms had new throttles for improved transition, and new solid state electrical components similar to those on EMD’s Dash-2 units for increased reliability.

In time, Chessie became part of CSX. The GP30s were renumbered into slots in CSX’s 4000, 4100, and 4200 series. CSX embarked on a program to convert locomotives into unpowered slugs to operate with powered mother units to provide additional traction. These combinations were quite common on mine shifters in the coalfields of southern West Virginia until they were replaced by six-axle EMD and GE units.

C&O road number CSX road number
3000 4200
3001 4201
3002 4202
3004 4203
3006 4204
3007 4097
3008 4205
3009 4206
3010 2210 (slug)
3011 4207
3012 4208
3014 4209
3015 4210
3016 4211
3017 4212
3018 4213
3019 4214
3020 4215
3021 4216
3022 4099
3023 4217
3024 4218
3025 4219
3026 4220
3027 4221
3028 4222
3029 4223
3030
3031 4101 (rebuilt to slug)
3032 4102
3033 4224
3034 4225
3035 4226
3036
3037 4227
3038 4228
3039 4229
3040 4230
3041 4104
3043 4231
3044 4232
3046 4233


C&O 3003, 3005, 3013: wrecked in 1976, traded to EMD and scrapped.
C&O 3042 wrecked in 1979, traded to EMD and scrapped
C&O 3045 wrecked in 1965, rebuilt as GP35 3045, subsequently renumbered 3583
C&O 3047 wrecked in 1965, rebuilt as GP35 3047, subsequently renumbered 3584

work safe

[siberianmo]

G'day coalminer3 CM3,

[wow]! That's just an overwhelming amount of info on the Geeps - well done! [tup]

While I can't count myself in on those who are "into" locomotives to the degree you have chonicled, I appreciate those who are. Mine has always been a love affair with the passenger train and their loco's. When the consists were matched and the motive power all in the same livery, well that's the "cat's meow" for me.

I know the Geeps have been 'round for a long time, seems just like yesterday when the GP9 came out. Anyway, they represent to me, the modern - the changing "face" of American railroading. Nothing "wrong" with 'em, mind you. But just the same, nothing in comparison to the loco's of the 40s, 50s and early 60s. (That should spur on some conversation!)

I still can't get used to seeing what should be a freight locomotive heading up a passenger train. Even the F40PH's leave me somewhat "cold," since they have that "freight look," if you know what I mean.

Quarters always appreciated - Wurltizer says <burp!> and the round will go down smoothly as the bar is beginning to look more like a Friday afternoon! [tup] Boris ring the bell!

By the by - Email received and responded to. Thanx!

Next up - the NOSTALGIA piece.

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

G’day All!

Here’s something to ponder with regard to our appreciation and fascination with
Classic Trains. Check this ad out (from The Official Guide of the Railways – 1956) [located on page iii]

You make a 10% commission every time you reserve a Hertz car for a passenger!

May I reserve a Hertz car for you at your destination?”

That question is loaded – with potential profit for you. Ask it every time you sell a ticket. When the passenger answers “Yes” make the reservation and Hertz will send you 10% of the total car rental.

Chances are good he’ll say “Yes.” This year hundreds of thousands of wise rail travelers will take advantage of this easy, low-cost way to take the train and have a Hertz car waiting when they arrive.

Your part is easy. Fill out the triplicate form supplied you free by Hertz. Send one to the proper Hertz office, give the passenger one, and keep one.

The handy Hertz directory lists more than 1,000 offices around the world. So you’re assured of Hertz service (and that 10% commission) wherever a passenger is going. Hertz’ low rates include all gasoline and oil, plus proper insurance, and Hertz cars are new Powerglide Chevrolets or other fine makes.

Start now! Write today for details and reservation forms Hertz Rent A Car, 218 So. Wabash Avenue, Chicago 4, Ill.

. . . . .More people by far . . . use . . . . .
. . . . . HERTZ . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . Rent a car . . . . .


Enjoy! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

CHECK THE MONDAY SUMMARY and INDEX PAGES FOR MORE GREAT NOSTALGIA POSTS!

[Trainnut484]

Good afternoon Tom and all [:)]. A little too early for ML so I'll have a cup of java. Great info on the ol' KCS, Tom. I know little of the road even though it's in my backyard. I was fortunate to catch one or two of KCS's 'white ghost" locomotives painted in all white with red lettering, and I enjoy seeing their MP15AC's working through Santa fe junction. Michael Haverty of course started with MoPac and had a huge career with the Santa Fe as being the one to bring back the Red and Silver Warbonnet. I had the chance to see him at one of KCS's Christmas train appearances here at Union Station.

Ted, interesting insight of the street cars that once traversed KC. I've heard there is still evidence, although small, of the lines here. Everytime major elections come up, the "revival of small rail service" drum takes up the familiar beat. I won't go into the political riga-ma-roe.

Coalminer3, yes I do hear about the potential partner that will merge with KCS, but one does grow a deaf ear to it.

Gotta tend to other stuff. Take care for now,

Russell

[BudKarr]

Hello Captain Tom,

I just posted this on your new thread, "Let's talk about Classic Passenger Trains!" and with your permission, would like to provide it for the guys at the bar. However, before I do - please fill up one of those frosty mugs with some draught on whatever tap happens to be closest to you. A sandwich would be nice as well - one of those submarines made up with every lunch meat in the fridge.

My story involves a trip between Göteborg and Stockholm, Sweden back in the mid-90s aboard the "tilt train" referred to as the X2000.

My memory is not quite as vivid as many of you out there who thrive on these kinds of recollections. I prefer rail travel, but am not what one may consider to be a rail fan nor am I a hobbyist. Mine is to use that mode for travel when it best fits into the time I have available.

X2000 provides all types of innovative approaches to passenger rail travel, many of which have since been incorporated elsewhere. For example: Automatic Train Control which can stop the train should a signal "back" not be received; Parking brakes and anti-slip devices that are electronic in operation; magnetic emergency braking that can stop a speeding train at 125 mph in about 3/4 of a mile; asynchronous traction motors used to power the car's four axles; and of course the "tilt" mechanism that kicks in when rounding curves.

The consist we had that particular run featured the locomotive and I believe 5 or 6 cars, each with specific interior designs and purposes. I traveled in First Class in the 2nd car back from the locomotive - I think.

I recall the cars being "done" rather fashionably, although a bit on the "plastic" side - sterile might be a better word. Some passengers appeared to be a bit uncomfortable with the motion of the car, causing a feeling of "sea sickness." Fortunately, no one found a reason to experience projectile vomiting in the car I traveled in!

My recollection is that I had no dificulty navigating the passageways heading to and from other cars, asI visited the bar car a few times to sample the Swedish brew and other delights. I could have waited for the on board Hostess, but wanted to stretch my legs during that just a bit under 4 hour journey.

I do not wi***o make comparisons with other trains, such as the French TGV or German ICE, etc. The X2000 is a distinctive engineering accomplishment and stands alone in my mind as worth the expense of time and money.

The Swedish countryside seemed to zip by and as I had read from someone's Post elsewhere - looking from the window was as is a slide show was taking place. They advertised the speeds in excess of 100 mph, perhaps even 125. All I can report is that we were moving and moving quite well. The ride was fine and stops minimal.

Today, as I understand it, the X2000 runs link most of Sweden's major cities. I travel to that part of the world rather frequently, but have not availed myself of a repeat train trip. Next time, I plan to.

One more brew, please.

BK

[BudKarr]

Hello again Captain Tom,

Seems that I am remiss in mentioned your work for this day. Thank you for your efforts, once again as the Fallen Flags and Nostalgia submissions are always something to enjoy.

I particularly got a kick out of the Hertz advertisement. In those days the rental car businesses were trying their best to get a foot hold. Today, try to get a rental car at any but the largest U.S. rail terminals. Just the wording tells a story, all geared to the rail passenger. Not so in 2005.

When your Monday list comes out, I would imagine you will have a page full of reference material for anyone desirous of catching up or rereading your efforts. As you say, [tup].

There are two gentlemen at the bar who deserve my kudos too - one Mr. CM3, the coalminer, and the other Mr. Al of passengerfan fame. Your continued contributions in excellence only leads to the contention several have already aired that this is the finest exchange of information available on the forums. I wonder if Kalmbach knows of this gold mine in terms of relevant, factual and interesting input?

Okay, Captain Tom - one more beer, please and I will get back to finishing my sandwich. That is quite a lot to consume, is it not?

BK

[pwolfe]

Hi TOM and all.

A bit early but I,ll try a pint of the usual please.

A real busy Friday at the bar[tup] with very knowledgeable postsTHANKS PASSENGERFAN AL CM3 TED ROB RUSSELL BK and TOM.

ROB The railway in the U.K. is I think really trying to compete with the airlines and certainly time wise with checking in etc but our distances are so much shorter the main worry is that they don't price themselves out of it. It will be interesting to see when the High speed line in England opens to the Channel Tunnel how much effect it has on the Airlines to and from the continent.

Tom Thanks for the KCS flag and Hertz nostalgia I think car rental in the U.K. was a lot later than 1956.

Also thanks for the COOKER link it reads as a possable source of power in the future.
The reason I asked was in the CHESSIE flag it mentioned 3 cookers in their fleet.

Another British Pullman was what was known as the Blue Pullman it was classed as a DRC with 2 power cars and in a 8 or 6 car formation. They were built by Metro- Cammell of Birmingham in the Midlands of England in the early 1960s an ran until 1973. The Western Region ones (8-Car) ran between London Paddington and Swansea. and Paddington to Wolverhampton via Banbury and Birmingham Snow Hill.

The 6-car units were used on the ex Midland main line between london St Pancreas and Manchester. This was during the electrification of the West Coast route to Manchester and Birmingham where train times were much longer and services much reduced during the work. When it was completed in 1966 the Birmingham and Manchester service were withdrawn.

The livery when new was blue with white window surrounds the ones that survived were gray with blue around the windows at the end.

I have heard that the sevice on them was excellent although the units were a bit rough riding. The engineers wore a white long coat while driving these in the early days looking a bit like a motor coach driver.

One story I heard was that one of the Pullmans failed on the Western and the only loco nearby was a scruffy 2-6-2 steam tank engine despite its appearence the loco was said to have put in a very spirited performance [;)].

Well TOM I have just noticed that the bar is about to reach 150 pages, for my generation this figure is when most railway celebrations are held. WELL DONE and a have a drink on me PETE>

[Anonymous]

Back after lunch and a couple of Alka Seltzers. Hi Tom, can't handle anything just now but probably will after I honor my commitment for the Pacific Electric installment. It seems the P. E. is a Road marked by superlatives from every stand point of electrified rail operations. P.E. served over 125 cities and communities in 4 Counties around Los Angeles and included over 1,000 miles of electrified rails in all directions from its Hub. The Southern Pacific R.R. owned P.E. but it was managed by Collis P. Huntington's nephew, Henry E. Huntington. The Line became recognizable as the such in 1911 with the merger of 3 other Lines: the L. A. Pacific, the L.A. & Redondo and L.A Interurban Co. It is hard to imagine that in 4 short years (1915), this huge system was complete with the aquisition of the last of 72 seperate traction companies.

The P.E. was divided into 3 major districts: the Northern (the largest); the Western and Southern. Some 400 miles of trackage and 33 lines served the Northern district. Four track mainline carried passengers north to Pasadena (600 v. ROW) and west to San Bernadino (1200 v. ROW).

The Western Division included destinations: Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Glendale, Burbank and the San Fernando Valley. Also, the beaches of Santa Monica and Venice (complete with canals) were extensions of the Western Division. The often photographed mile long "subway" tunnel from Hill St. Terminal (downtown L.A.) gave Los Angeles Pacific cars a "jump start" smack into congested city streets. There were early plans for extending the "subway" lines but the Wall Street panic of 1907 killed that idea for good.

The Southern District went south to Long Beach and San Pedro and southeast along Pacific beaches to Newport, Balboa Beach and southwest to Redondo Beach. The L.A. to Watts 4 track mainline was the busiest leg on the Southern Division. M-U freight shared the mainlnes with box motors hauling mail and express along with frequent passenger car M-U trains. This must have been Train Watcher's heaven during "rush hour" periods.

P.E.'s peak year was in 1945, when 110 million passengers were logged in and the need for bringing back the aging wooden coaches and another 80 big steel interurban cars from the abandoned Southern Pacific traction lines (San Francisco) was necessary to handle the volume.

Well, that should be ample for a first installment. I don't care to expand into a laborious Tome of data at one sitting. There is, hopefully, plenty of time to savour the compelling qualities of this "one of a kind" electricfied Road that did so much to expand a "turn of the century" town of Los Angeles into the megalopolis of the mid 20th century.

Now, Tom, I'll try a Guiness on for size, if you please. Later, I have my "chops" set for a top Sirloin, medium well, smothered with mushroom gravy, baked potato, sour cream and butter. That is, unless I am enticed away by some selections from Nick's Picks later on. CM3, "All I wanted to know about Geeps and was afraid to ask." Congratulations on this "tour de force," herculean Post.[tup] Rob, yes the Brill Witts did have a longevity problem. Perhaps they over extended thamselves during the late Twentys into the Thirties? The St. Louis Cars seemed to hold up well to "the test of time." Pete, I was happy to see the British Pullman inquiry was mostly resolved. I'm going to search a bit for some photo examples.[^]

Nice of you to drop by BK. Come again when you are able to stay longer. It does appear as if a choice of "quality vs. quantity" is eminent for "Our" Place. Personally, I do not find that to be unique or a problem in any manner. Au contrar, if anything is to be sacrificed, let it be the mindless rants to be found in industrial numbers throughout other Threads. I would hate to think that "Our" Place is on that level of competition.[V] If "that level" becomes an obsession here, then perhaps it is time to "call it quits" after all![xx(]

Don't forget to pick up your costumes by Ms Beaver'smuff's Sundry Notions and Pin Cushion Emporium before Boris' [bday] Bash on Halloween. We will have the Ladies in appropriate disguise as Bikini Black Magic Witches serving up your favorite potions and elixers; gauranteed to add straw to any broomstick.[}:)] Did I mention there will be a raffle for Boris' old Boondockers? A kitchen garbage disposal will accompany the prize[tup] Happy rails to all and to all a good night.

[siberianmo]

G’day Guys!

Let’s get right to the acknowledgements, for we’ve had quite a continuing bit of activity ‘round here this afernoon …….

Trainnut484 Russell Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 12:55:56

I thought the Purple Flag KCS would “draw” you out! [swg] There doesn’t seem to be very much available in my modest library of “stuff,” so we’re depending on our guys to come forth, as did passenerfan Al.

Once again for anyone out there wanting to tell us that KCS still exists, the use of the term only applies to passenger operations ……

BudKarr BK Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 14:25:21 and 14:44:06

Nice job with the X2000 Post! Also, appreciate your being the first to Post on the new thread. [tup] Perhaps one day …. Would like to try it out. I did see the “demonstration” train that was here in the St. Louis area some years back. In fact, the ICE train also appeared shortly before or after X2000.

Thanx for stopping by and whenever and wherever you travel – be safe.

pwolfe Pete Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 15:02:50

I type each and every Fallen Flag and NOSTALGIA piece and read ‘em through before Posting. I completely missed the “cooker” reference! [%-)][%-)][%-)]
So we BOTH learned something! [swg]

Appreciate the drink for the (almost) 150th page for ”Our” Place! [tup] One cold Keith’s Pale Ale comin’ up! [swg]

That’s some fine info on those British Pullmans. Looks like there should be a “source” out there for a compilation. Whadyathink [?]

Theodorebear Ted Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 15:46:00

Nice work and interesting “stuff” on the Pacific Electric! [tup][tup] Too bad West Coast S Dave isn’t ‘round to pick up on and enjoy this topic.

I knew a guy out in Long Beach who was really “into” the electrics of past decades. He could talk the ears off a brass monkey on the subject. Lots of deep feelings existed amongst several of the inhabitants of those parts over the demises of those services. Some blamed a conspiracy on the part of the petroleum and tire industries to do ‘em in. Who knows [?] Facts are that the infrastructure was huge, was effective and is sorely missed. Same can be said in many of our major metro areas throughout the U.S.

Okay guys, it’s Steak ‘n Fries Nite as well as Pizza Nite! [dinner] begins at 5 PM!

So, whatillyahave [?]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[passengerfan]

Good Afternoon Tom Time for a CR and a round for the house.
Checked with my local Hertz rent a car and asked if they mean.t passengers arriving by train and they said they did it quite often since the local airport no longer has any commercial flights. All the information they require is a reservation and which train the passenger is arriving on. They will then pick up the passenger in the car and drive to the office where the paperwork is completed and the passenger is on his way. To return the car they ask you arrive at the office about 30 minutes before train time and they will give you a ride to the train. I don't know if this is true of all Hertz offices but our local edition provides this service.

[siberianmo]

Evenin' Guys!

Been quite the Friday 'round here and good to see some semblance of a return to "normalcy." There has been quite a bit of dialogue to digest. One can easily find themselves behind the [8] Eight Ball in terms of catching up.

Commentary from the Proprietor: No one 'round here is pushing numbers. Rather the idea is to keep our thread up on the page. To do that, those who consider themselves regulars can be helpful by picking a time slot - and trying to stick to it for Posts. If duirng the course of a day one can find the time to visit us more than once, that's surely appreciated. But the idea has NEVER been to amass numbers. When it comes time to pull the plug on this idea of mine, I'll be the first to let y'all know. But as I see it, we're not heading in that direction.

passengerfan Al It doesn't suprise me at all to learn that there may be a Hertz office in California who happens to be responsive to rail travlers. California happens to be perhaps the leading state for passenger rail travel. Why wouldn't they, especially in light of little or no passengers at the local airport [?]

I tried to arrange for a car at KCity's Union Station through Hertz - following THEIR web site and it was a disaster. Wound up walking over to Crown Center and getting one from a competitor. At best it's situational, I would think.

Thanx for the round! Boris ring the bell and don't forget the track gang in the pool room! [swg]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[trolleyboy]

Good evening again gentlemen and Boris.I'm back for my late night catch up, we have had quite a good day today I'm glad to see that. Tom I'll nab a Keith's and help myself to some of the left over peperoni pizza.

Tom I never figured Hertz to have started in the 50's[:0] Though the cross promotion of modes of travel dosen't seem like that much of a stretch. We all know as has been stated that the car rental places went whole hof with the airports in the 60's. I can't remember being in too many airports that haven't had at least three different car rental companies with offices on the grounds.

You would be amazed at how much people do buy with their CDN Tire money. There was a guy in Montreal that paid for an entire rebuild of his transmition with the stuff. Obviousley he had collected vast quantities of it from family and friends,but amazing none the less.

I've never taken a Via trip in Via 1 class,I've always purchased reg coach. What is the difference for the money ?

Ted excellent first installment.I'm simply amazed as to how such an extensive rail network as the PE could have been simply blown off and dismantled. espeacially in a state that is so needy of public transit. absolutly boggles the mind.[V]

Yes the Canadian Brill Witts had absolutly awfull bodies. Alot of this is due to the lack of modern equipment in the factory. Preston car and Coach had for the most part built wood cars,bus bodies and some rail coaches. They only just began doing rivetted cars in 1917 when a massive fire took out half of the plant, and several completed cars that were being preped for shipping. They never really got back on their feet when Brill bought them out to gain a foot hold in the Canadian market. alot of the designers and workers left before the Brill takeover and the resulting rproducts spoke for themselves.

Now the Witt's that were built by Cancar in Montreal and by the Ottawa car company were of much better quality,we have two cars from each manufacturer at the museum. At least 4 or 5 others also ex TTC exist at US based trolley museums. And one Ottawa built car 2766 is still owned by the TTC and used for charter work today !

CM3 Wonderfull bit on the GP30's. An ugly duckling to be sure but one of the railfan favourites. Even today many of the CSX slugs still are in use. BNSF( still don't like that merger or name[xx(][:(!] ) did a major rebuilding of their existing ex GN and other BN predissesor locos. They were rebuilt to GP38-s electrical standards and are used on secondary trains and hump yard service. Just can't keep a good geep down. Only one minnor ommission. CPR bought two 5000 and 5001. Both were retired in the last 5 years along with the 30 or so GP35's that they owned. Neither the GP35 or 30 had much popularity up here. CN bought two GP35's and no GP30's. Both CN and CP felt thast the GP7's and 9's were more suited to the lighter roles. That and the late desilization up here ment that GMD started later in the building of the higher horse power 30's and 35's

BK Wonderfull post. It's always nice to here of the continental trains as well. Gives us that needed balance around here. Thank-you


Well folks I'll catch up with everyone tomorrow.

Rob

[siberianmo]

SATURDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

Good Mornin’ Gang! Why not take advantage of our freshly brewed coffee, pastries from The Mentor Village Bakery and the <light> breakfasts before beginning your chores for this fine day [?]

Info for the Day:

(1) Today is ENCORE Day! I will resubmit some NOSTALGIA and Fallen Flag Posts.

(2) Sunday is Photo Posting Day! THE BAR IS CLOSED!

(3) Monday is Boris’ Bash and Halloween Party! Plan to be here between Noon and 7 PM! Given the vast differences in time zones, let’s just call it “Eastern Time,” since this is Manager Ted’s show. [swg]

INDEX Monday’s only!

SUMMARY

Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 06:16:19 (148) Friday’s Info & Summary

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 06:17: 28 (148) Fallen Flag – KCS

(3) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 06:20:08 (148)

(4) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 07:58:11 (148) reply to: trolleyboy, etc.

(5) passengerfan Al Posted:28 Oct 2005, 08:59:20 (148) KCS passenger car info

(6) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 09:03:27 (148)

(7) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 09:17:52 (149)

(8) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 09:31:38 (149) reply to passengerfan & trolleyboy

(9) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 09:51:28 (149) reply to trolleyboy

(10) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 10:02:48 (149)

(11) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 10:06:18 (149)

(12) BudKarr BK Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 10:17:38 (149)

(13) Rob Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 10:27:26 (149)

(14) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 10:36:34 (149)

(15) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 10:59:53 (149) reply to Theodorebear – BudKarr – trolleyboy

(16) coalminer3 CM3 Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 11:28:10 (149) C&O GP30s

(17) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 12:11:36 (149) reply to coalminer3

(18) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 12:17:01 (149) NOSTALGIA – Ad HERTZ

(19) Trainnut484 Russell Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 12:55:56 (149)

(20) BudKarr BK Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 14:25:21 (149)

(21) BudKarr BK Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 14:44:06 (149) X2000

(22) pwolfe Pete Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 15:02:50 (149)

(23) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 15:46:00 (149) Pacific Electric, etc.

(24) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 16:35:16 (149) reply to Trainnut484 – BudKarr – pwolfe – Theodorebear

(25) passengerfan Al Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 18:00:33 (149)

(26) siberianmo Tom Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 18:43:16 (149) reply to passengerfan, etc.

(27) trolleyboy Rob Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 23:42:14 (149) Inclusive Post!

=======================================
That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo) [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

[siberianmo]

. . . . . ENCORE! ENCORE! . . . . .

Previously Posted on page 103:

A bit of info regarding a Fallen Flag - The Southern Pacific : (from: Classic American Railroads)

Headquarters: San Francisco, CA

Mileage:

1950: 15,039 (including subsidiary St. Louis-Southwestern)
1955: 178,340 Including subsidiaries, SW, SPCSL, and D&RGW)

Locomotives in 1963:

Diesel: 2,096

Rolling stock in 1963:

Freight cars 77,401 - Passenger cars: 1,002

Principal lines as of 1950:

Los Angeles-San Francisco via San Jose
San Jose-Ogden, Utah
Davis, CA-Portland, OR, via Chemult and Eugene, OR
Eugene-Black Butte via Roseburg, OR
Sacramento-Burbank (LA) via Bakersfield
Lathrop-Martinez, CA
LA-New Orleans via Phoenix, AZ
El Paso, TX-Tucumcari, NM
Galveston-Dallas/Denison, TX via Houston and Hearne
Rosenburg-Brownsville, TX
San Antonio-Corpus Christi, TX
Houston-Shreveport, LA
St. Louis-Dallas/Ft. Worth (SSW)
Memphis, TN-Brinkley, AR
Mt. Pleasant-Waco, TX (SSW)
Lewisville, AK-Shreveport, LA (SSW)

Principal added lines as of 1996:

Tucumcari-St. Louis via Kansas City
St. Louis-Chicago via Bloomington, IL
Kansas City-Chicago via Quincy, IL (trackage rights on BNSF)
Kansas City-Chicago via Ft. Madison, IA (trackage rights on BNSF)
Ogden-Pueblo, CO via Salt Lake City, UT and Salida, CO
Dotsero-Pueblo, CO via Grandby and Denver
Pueblo-Kansas City via Salinas, KS (trackage rights on UP)

Notable passenger trains:

Argonault (LA-New Orleans)
Cascade (Oakland-Portland)
City of San Francisco (Oakland-Chicago via Ogden; joint with UP and C&NW) – Milwaukee Road after 1955)
Coast Daylight (San Francisco-LA via San Luis Obispo; for a time also known as Morning Daylight)
Del Monte (San Francisco-Monterey, CA)
Golden State Limited (LA-Chicago via Tucumcari; joint with Rock Island)
Hustler (Houston-Dallas)
Imperial (LA-Chicago via Tucumcari; joint with Rock Island)
Lark (Oakland/San Francisco-LA via San Luis Obispo)
Owl (San Francisco-LA via Bakersfield)
Sacramento Daylight (Sacramento-LA via Bakersfield)
San Francisco Overland (Until Oct 1955, Oakland-Chicago via Ogden; joint with UP and C&NW; after 1955 Oakland-St. Louis joint with the Wabash Railroad)
San Joaquin Daylight (Oakland-LA via Bakersfield)
Shasta Daylight (Oakland-Portland)
Starlight (San Francisco-LA)
Sunbeam (Houston-Dallas)
Sunset Limited (Initially San Francisco-New Orleans via San Joaquin Valley; later cut back to LA-New Orleans).

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[siberianmo]

Good Morning!

Just a reminder that on Saturdays, due to the relatively low level of Posts, I will be providing some Encore! resubmissions of Fallen Flags and NOSTALGIA pieces - just to keep the interest level going.

I see there is a late night Post awaiting an acknowledgment, so here goes:

trolleyboy Rob Posted: 28 Oct 2005, 23:42:14

The Hertz ad jumped out at me when I first saw it in the 1956 Guide to North American Railroads. There's a bunch of nostalgia in those editions and I'm really pleased to have the one I've got. A gift from my youngest son who found it, and a companion freight edition, at a flea market., Nice gift for sure! [tup] Glad you appreciated it! [tup]

Canadian Tire has a good thing going with those dollars and there's no doubt that given a choice, one would prefer to make the purchase(s) there, as opposed to somewhere else where no "reward" is provided. Good marketing!

Remember the "trading stamps" era [?] I recal that we purchased our coffee table, end tables and a lamp or two from the S&H Green Stamps redemption center. Used to get those with gasoline purchases, supermarket shopping, etc. Was quite the thing ..... the as with the passenger railroads, they just folded the tent, so to speak. Gone-zo! [tdn]

Your Email was received and responded to - thanx! [tup]

The diference in fares for VIA1 and coach is - in a word - significant. It really is geared for the business traveler who can "write it off," or have the company pick up the tab right off. Another word - expensive! Check out www.viarail.ca and run through a few trip itineraries and you'll see ...... My attitude on things like this is and has been that I'm all for going 1st class on those trips that I may never have the opportunity to experience again. I'm not interested in "skimping" on my cherished times for fun, when they should be - well, fun! Just the way I am. I've turned down more than one chance to go here or there because we couldn't get the "bookings" we wanted. I'm not about to sit in coach on overnighters, nor sit in a cramped airplane for flights of 5, 7 or more hours .... Those days (daze) are looooooong gone for this guy.

Enjoy the weekend and thanx for the (always) Incluisiveness of your Post! [tup][tup]

Tom][4:-)][oX)]

[Anonymous]

Good mornin' all of you "sleepless in Cyberville." Since I just "blew off" 6 paragraphs of text, this will be an abbreviated version (soft bound). If it happens again, I'll meet you at Boris' Birthday bash Monday. Tom, just a Folger's and a Bavarian today please. Let's see where were we? Oh yes, Installemt Two of the Pacific Electric! Your "Encore" on the S.P. could not have been better timed Tom. Since P.E. was owned by S.P., this page has unexpected continuity.

Every type, classification and genre of electric power could be found on the P.E. Let's start with the more well known 1000 series cars with the "wrap around" end windows, 2 trolley poles, and monitor roofs. These cars were designed by P.E. and built by the Jewett Car Co., circa 1913. Many could still be found operating through 1949 and they were admired by L.A. riders even after they were "put out to pasture." The largest of the interurbans was the #600-759 series called "Hollywood" cars and ran on virtually every line until abandonment. The "Blimp" #400 series cars were ex-Southern Pacific passenger coaches and weighed in at 63 tons and were 72 feet in length. A distinctive feature of the "Blimp" was the "Owl eyes" on the bulkheads, like some early Pennsy coaches you may recall. Of course, P.C.C. cars were later added, some single end, some double ended. They served the Glendale Burbank run for 16 years. There were Parlour cars for the "boat-train" service to San Pedro and Observations for celebrities and Road dignitaries. Henry Huntington had a private car at 63 feet and 52 tons which was reportedly one of the fastest and most luxurious cars ever "under the wires." E.P. also ran "Doodlebugs" to more remote locations.

Steam, diesel, and all electrics were used for mail, express and freight on the line. During W.W. II all 3 were used in tandem on some heavy freight consists. I will be searching for photo varification on this. Imagine the logistical power puzzle on operating them. Electrics had to accompany steam for trolley controlled signals operation. This bazaar combination must have been a sight indeed. There were a profuse number of tower, rail grinder, wire greaser, crane, wreckers, weed burners, portable substations and vacuum-cleaner cars, as well. Ill be back with a final note on the P.E. Monday.

Rob I know that all Memebers of "The Order of the Stools" will agree with you that to witness whole rail empires "go to the torch" in two generations is gut wrenching. Worse, a "whole" social value system went down in the same "flush." Not here, not so long as that epoch may be kept alive in these various posts from our esteemed Members.[tup]

One proverbial trap in any special interest is "exclusivity." Believe you me, when all other aspects of R.R.ing are closed to "tunnel vision," the seeds of "self destruction" are firmly planted. Thankfully, "Our" Place has not fallen to such a limited loss of input and, hopefully, never will. Which brings us to the Photo Ops Sunday feature which is everyone's chance to "say a thousand words..." Hope there will be participation by all who are able.

Okay, Monday will be a "Creature Feature" in more ways than one. From Noon 'til 7:00 p.m. (Tom says: Eastern Standard Time) the first ever "Our" Place Halloween and Boris' Birthday Bash will be celebrated in this "den of inequity." Scroll back for more details on what may be expected. For now, I must bid all a fine weekend and happy rails.

[passengerfan]

Good Morning Tom and the rest of the gang. Time for Coffee and a diet pastrie from the Mentor Bakery.

Wow what can be said the Southern Pacific is todays fallen flag.

At one time the SP operated the following All Pullman trains over their lines the TREASURE ISLAND SPECIAL, FORTY NINER, OVERLAND, LARK, and CASCADE. Not all were fully streamlined but several were the LARK and CASCADE. The latter has the distinction of being the shortest operated all pullman streamliner. The train was inaugurated as an All Pullman streamliner August 13, 1950 and coaches were added October 11, 1950. Four through sleeping cars from the CASCADE ran to Seattle from Portland.

The SHASTA DAYLIGHT was the only SP DAYLIGHT to cross a state line all others (MORNING, NOON, SAN JOAQUIN, and SACRAMENTO ) operated entirely within the state of California.

The SP had three major transcontinental routes the Sunset route between New Orleans and Los Angeles. The Overland route Between Chicago and San Francisco operated jointly with the UP and C&NW. And finally their was the Golden State Route between Chicago and Los Angeles via El Paso operated jointly with the CRI&P.

Each route featured a Premier trains and at least one secondary. On the Overland route it was the CITY OF LOS ANGELES and the SAN FRANCISCO OVERLAND.
On the Sunset Route it was the SUNSET LIMITED and ARGONAUT and on the Golden State Route it was the GOLDEN STATE and IMPERIAL.

The Coast Line provided day service with the MORNING and NOON DAYLIGHTS and all Pullman service overnight with the LARK.

The Valley line operated the SAN JOAQUIN DAYLIGHT with a postwar connecting daylight the SACRAMENTO DAYLIGHT between Sacramento and Lathrop. And overnight on this route it was the OWL. Never a all pullman train but never the less a very comfortable train indeed.

The line from Oakland to Portland operated the SHASTA DAYLIGHT and overnight CASCADE. Besides these trains their were other trains operated on all of the routes,

The SP some say were operating one of the finest passenger roads in the country when they suddenly began turning their backs on passengers . One of the reasons was the SP was faced with spending tons of maney rebuilding the prewar Daylight cars that were self destructing with corrosion and rust. Dining car s were removed from trains and replaced with the much hated Automat cars.
Whatever all the resons were the SP took a viable passenger operation into the sewer in just a few short years.

Ta Ta For Now

[passengerfan]

PS I meant to say CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO not CITy OF LOS ANGELES in the sixth paragraph

[siberianmo]

. . . . . ENCORE! ENCORE! . . . . .

This Fallen Flag was previously shown on page 106! from Classic American Railroads:

Missouri Pacific

Headquarters: St. Louis, MO

Route mileage in 1950: 9,700

Locomotive fleet in 1963: Diesel: 724

Rolling stock in 1950:

Freight cars: 44.923 Passenger cars: 533

Principal lines in 1950:

St. Louis-Sedalia-Kansas City, MO-Omaha, NE
Jefferson City-Boonville-Kansas City
St. Joseph, MO-Stockton, KS
Kansas City-Pueblo, CO
Osawatomie, KS-Wagoner, OK-North Little Rock, AR
Pleasant Hill, MO-Wichita-Geneseo, KS
Fort Scott-Larned, KS
Rich Hill-Joplin, MO
Carthage, MO-Diaz, AR
St. Louis-Little Rock, AR-Texarkana, TX
East St. Louis, IL-Poplar Bluff, MO
Bismark, MO-Salem, IL
Bald Knob, AR-Memphis, TN
Little Rock-McGehee, AR-Lake Charles, LA
Memphis-McGehee
McGehee-Vidalia, LA
Pine Bluff-Hot Springs, AR
Gurdon, AR-Clayton, LA
Longview-Laredo, TX
Palestine-Galveston, TX
Brownsville, TX-Baton Rouge, LA-New Orleans
New Orleans-Donaldson-Alexandria, LA
Forth Worth-Spring (Houston), TX
San Antonio-Corpus Christi, TX
El Paso-Longview, TX-Livonia, LA-New Orleans (T&P)
Fort Worth, TX-Cypress, LA, via Texarkana & Marthaville, LA (T&P)
Texarkana-Longview (T&P)

Passenger Trains:

Aztec Eagle (San Antonio-Mexico City)
Colorado Eagle (St, Louis-Denver)
Houstonian (New Orleans-Houston)
Louisiana Sunshine Special (Little Rock-Lake Charles)
Missouri River Eagle (St. Louis-Omaha)
Missourian (St. Louis-Kansas City and Wichita)
Orleanean (Houston-New Orleans)
Ozarker (St. Louis-Little Rock)
Pioneer (Houston-Brownsville)
Rainbow Special (Kansas City-Little Rock)
Royal Gorge (Kansas City-Pueblo)
Southerner (St. Louis-El Paso & San Antonio & New Orleans)
Southern Scenic (Kansas City-Memphis)
Sunflower (St. Louis-Kansas City & Wichita)
Sunshine Special (St. Louis-Hot Springs & San Antonio)
Texan (St. Louis-Fort Worth
Texas Eagle (No. 1 & 2: St. Louis-El Paso, TX)
Texas Eagle (No. 21 & 22: St. Louis-Houston & San Antonio)
Valley Eagle (Houston-Brownsville)

Of note: National Railways of Mexico operated the Aztec Eagle between Nuevo Laredo-Mexico City.
T&P operated the El Paso trains out of Texarkana and handled Texarkana-Longview trains.
Denver trains out of Pueblo were operated by D&RGW.

Enjoy! [tup]

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[Anonymous]

hello every one I am new to the forum and have asimple question,I have been collecting o and Ho for around 20 years and want to get into weathering some of my beatup stock,and ideas ? ore good sites online for free advice on this topic,thanks

[siberianmo]

G'day!

Another realy Q-U-I-E-T day 'round the Place, but I thought it best to acknowledge a couple of regulars before this day passes me by .......

Theodorebear Ted Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 09:32:41

Nice effort - too bad about that problem you've encountered with the loss. Surely seems like doing your work on a WP program would save you lots of aggravation ....

My selection of the SP for an "ENCORE!" run was deliberate given your Pacific Electric theme begun yesterday. I agree, a nice fit. You may want to consider rerunning today's work on Monday or Tuesday given that we most probably will have very few readers - plus when the guys return Monday, it's anyone's guess whether the previous Posts will be read. Just a thought ....... That's precisely why I've resorted to "reruns" on Saturdays .......

We'll see what the 'morrow brings - hope it's better than last Sunday given only two of us took the time to particpate in the Sunday Photo Posting Day! - I think it was only two - Rob and the "Proprietor." Seems like we had more "conversation" than pix - which is the opposite of the intent. Oh well ........

passengerfan Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 10:36:36

Looks like the ENCORE! of the SP "worked" for you too! Did you miss the first Posting back on page 103 [?] No matter - the idea is to generate conversation and that it did! Thanx for the commentary and added info ......... This one "flicked" West Coast S' switch first time 'round ....... [tup]

Okay guys - I'll check back later in the day and maybe provide one more ENCORE! piece.

Enjoy!

Tom[4:-)][oX)]

[BudKarr]

Hello Captain Tom,

I just provided one of my repeat performances over on your new topic and hope it helps to keep the idea moving forward. If you win even one newcomer for the bar, it is worth the effort.

What to have on this day? How about a brew from the tap and an Italian sub - hold the onions please.

You inquired regarding my use of the term Adventurer in my profile. Perhaps better expressed from days of yore than present times. Best explained in other than cyber space.

I always enjoy those Fallen Flags of yours even with my rather limited experience compared to the majority of your customers. My European rail travels have been more extensive, but alas, I only have my memory to rely upon for data. And waht is that saying? The memory is the second thing to go! My contribution to humor this fine day.

The Southern Pacific was surely an interesting railroad and one that enjoyed immense success in their day. Don't know too much about the Missouri Pacific, but I do recall the trains with suffix names of Eagle. Nice color scheme.

Thank you Mr. Trolley Rob and Mr. Peter Wolfe - my contributions pale in comparison with the rest of you. However, it is always gratifying to receive some recognition for the effort.

Looks like a quiet day at the bar, so I will just enjoy the sandwich, perhaps have another beer and then get going. Have some things to take care of for my Monday departure.

I will try to stop by tomorrow - if only to view the photographs.

BK

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone. Tom, I'll take a cold water with a lemon-it helps clear the lungs. Been catching up and neglected to take notes until almost the last page so I may be a bit more scatter brained than normal.
Tom, the Classic Trains issue about the coast to coast Boy Scout trip is Summer 2003. The majority of the issue is about the B&O so look for the Mikado on the cover. I liked the fallen flag on the KCS. It's always seemed weird to me that this rr has been around for years but very little is published about it in any of the rail press. Even here in SW Mo, very little is discussed about the KCS. The widecabs are, along with the ex SD45s, are probably the most notable of KCS' recent prevelence of buying most of its power secondhand. All this stopped a few years ago when KCS ended their all EMD streak by buying new GEs.(yuk!)
CM3, I appreciate the detailed info about the C&O GP30s. The dispositions are most helpful-Diesel Era mag does similar articles. Question however. The Kansas and Oklahoma rr, a Watco company, has an exChessie GP30 which I rode in the cab of earlier this year. I seem to remember the number being 3016. It also had a interesting device on the control stand allowing the engineer to vary the power--kind of like the fast/slow switch on some locos to change the way they load up for road or switching. I agree about the particular noise the locos make when under load.
Trolleyboy, let me get this straight. You think that the EMD E8 is not an attractive locomotive? Did I read too quickly? I do agree about the long nosed Es being nice looking. My favorites were the purple ACLs, the SALs with the retractable nose door, and of course, the Rock's 630.
Well, the official season for the Midland ends tomorrow. Probably for the good as our 2 primary locos are broke down. The 142 fried its auxiliary generator and the 8255 quit loading then dropped a bunch of lube oil.
The pneumonia is still present but I feel a little better every day. Some days are better than others, though. Enjoy all the posts and encourage more first person accounts. Personally, since discovering Our Place, I don't even check any other places out on the web for interaction. I feel the best info is here, along with good hospitality and the greatest group to hang with.
Don't forget to set the clocks back for our US group.

[passengerfan]

Good Evening Tom Time for a CR and a round for the house.

The MP was an interesting passenger road in that in the streamline era they owned cars from all four major manufacturers (P/S,AC&F, Budd and SLC.
One of their most interesting streamliners was the COLORADO EAGLE introduced six months after WW had began on June 21, 1942. The seven car streamliners were combination Budd and P/S built cars the first five cars the Baggage , Baggage 30'RPO, 56 Seat Coach, 48-Seat Grill Coach and the Dining Lounge Cars were Budd built and the two trailing sleeping cars were P/S built. Actually their was an eigth car in each consist a modernized heavyweight sleeping car west of Geneseo Kansas to Denver. This car originated in Wichita westbound and terminated in Wichita eastbound. The train was operated over D&RGW rails north of Pueblo to Denver, and the diesels showed both roads names to reflect this.
Following WW II the train received three Budd built domes which have an interesting story behind them . First why was their three when their was only two consists necessary for daily service. It was initially planned that the COLORADO EAGLE would be part of the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR and through cars would operate west of Denver in that train so the CZ would have two eastern terminals Chicago and St. Louis. Talks broke off just after the MP had ordered the domes from Budd. These Budd domes were exactly the same as the Budd dome coaches operated in the CZ with 46-reclining leg rest seats on the main level and the 24 standard seats in the dome. Talks broke off but the MP was already committed to the domes so they took delivery. Each COLORADO EAGLE was assigned one and the extra operated in one of the two consists of the MISSOURI RIVER EAGLE. When the MP purchased their P/S domes they ordered five knowing the TEXAS EAGLES 1-2 would only require two and the TEXAS EAGLES 21-22 would only require two so the extra went to the other MISSOURI RIVER EAGLE. The MISSOURI RIVER EAGLE was the only trains operating one consist with a Budd built dome and the other with a P/S built dome.

TEXAS EAGLES 1-2 were actually two trains in one Although the schedule said operating between St. Louis and El Paso the train operating west of Fort Worth was far different then the one arriving in Fort Worth each morning. The Dining car was replaced by a Dining Lounge and only two of the trains sleepers ran through and a single coach. Other then the head end cars it was practically a totally different train departing west and east from Fort Worth.

Ta TA for now.

[siberianmo]

Evenin’ Guys!

Even though it’s been a slooooooow Saturday, nice to see some regulars stop by …. Some acknowledgments are in order:

BudKarr BK Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 15:31:27

Good to see ya BK and thanx for the Post over on the new thread. You’re correct, Sir – the idea is to try and generate some interest in discussing passenger trains PLUS perhaps win over a few new customers. Worth a try ….

Your contributions to our group are always appreciated! Hope your trip doesn’t take you away for too long ……. By the by, your Email arrived – thanx! Response has been sent …..

earlydiesels Dan Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 19:48:09

Hey Dan! Each visit lately seems to bring back the “old” earlydiesels we’ve missed ‘round here! Cheers, Mate – water ‘n lemon will “work”! [tup]

Thanx for the info on that Classic Trains issue ….

I’m a fan of EMD E8s and think they are perhaps one of the finest of the classic diesels. Ain’t no way one can disparage them without hearin’ from me! [tdn]

Glad the Fallen Flags “work” for you … that’s the idea! I’d like to see a bit more on the KCS myself. My modest collection of RR books doesn’t have a whole hulluva lot, but what I have read is quite interesting. A couple of years ago I met the guy who is (was) the CEO of the road. He attended a meeting I was at in JCity. We were discussing the possibility of Amtrak expanding passenger service down to Oklahoma City from KCity, MO. This was right around the time when Amtrak introduced the Oklahoma run between Tulsa & OKCity. Anyway, nothing ever came of the idea – although he expressed interest in bringing back passenger service even if under someone’s else’s banner. Interesting guy ….

Hang in there! [tup] Hope to see ya again real soon.

passengerfan Al Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 20:42:23

Figures that you would provide some meaningful input regarding the MoPAC – thanx! [tup][tup] That’s really good “stuff” you’ve provided and perhaps you might want to think about Posting it again either Monday or Tuesday, just to ensure that it gets the attention deserving.

Of all the runs MoPAC had, I’d sure love it if the link between St. Louis and Denver could be brought back. What a shame that was disbanded, for there surely is a market between these two locations. [yeah] Iknow I’m a dreamer …. Domes - diners - bedroom cars, ahhhhhhh. [swg]

Okay – Leon the Night Man has arrived. I’ll see y’all on Monday and don’t forget that tomorrow is Sunday Photo Posting Day!

So, whatillyahave [?]

Tom [4:-)] [oX)]

[trolleyboy]

Good evening folks. Tom It's a bit late so I'll just do a tea this evening ( have to work again tomorow )


Tom and Al Loved the encores , always nice to reread. I've always said that one can never get to much information on the things one loves.I will add a couple of photo's to this weeks extravaganza and I do hope more than two of us partake in the action.


Tom Thanks for the VIA info.I shall check it out. Also I'm glad that you approve of CTC's amrketing operations. They still bill themselves as Canada's hardware store. I do try to shop with them first before I resort to the HD or other such retailers.

Dan and Tom A point of clarification. I don't strictly speaking hate the E8. I just feel that it did not in my mind have the same estetic bang for your buck as did the earlier E's 6's 5's etc. Kinda like comparing a 57 buick to a 97 buick just not as exciting.My opinion only not ment to offend one way or the 'tother. Hey at least it sparked some debate and interaction which is a good thing. [tup][:D]


BK No problem, I feel that it is important to acknowledge one another's efforts here. As I've stated other times on this site most of the information here is good information, and as such everyones imput is important.[tup] Your contributions here are just as important as mine and Ted's ,Tom's, and everyone elses of the regulars. I hope you can drop a few more on us in the comming weeks and months . [tup]


Ted A nice second installment as well. I'm having a hard time picturing the multi mode trains on the PE [:O] but hey what ever works [tup] I think a couple of the "blimp" cars have survuved in some of the US museum collections. Most likely at the Orange County museum. Hopefully when Dave gets back he can confim or deny this.

The PE was one of the few traction systems thatutilized the double ended PCC's they were / are a bit of a rare bird ! I've always loved the bright snappy paint scheme on them. Shades of SP's daylight passenger cars and deisels,no suprise there given the ownership [tup]

I won't have any of your recent pictures ready for this weeks picture day, sorry next week for sure. It's taken a bit longer to sort through ( my problem not your pictures ) procrastination and too much forum time[:(]. I'm big enough to pointout my own short commings. Honesty is the best policy [tup][^]


Well that should catch me uo for the day I'll pop back in a couple of minutes with some pictures for this week.


Rob

[trolleyboy]

Okay pictures for this week. As always I shall try to produce a couple of shots that will coincide with my classic juice posts from this week. So with Ted's approval I'll post a couple shoys of the museum's Witt's one large and one small. I don't have any shot's of traditional nearside cars but a couple of the museums "clones" will be posted in their stead.




This is a large Toronto TTC Witt from the first 1921 order,built by Canadian Car and Foundry of Montreal ( cancar ) Bertha or the "beer" car 2424




This is small Witt 2786 from the 1922 order built also by Cancar. sister car 2766 is still owned a run by the TTC. It is available for charter work and once in a while it and TTC two PCC's also used for charter work will get the occational running time on the Harbour front line during the summer.




This is a shot of small Witt 2894. This is from the last Witt order in 1923. This car was built by the Ottawa car company. 2894 is the backbone of our operating fleet. It is used daily during our operating season.She replaced 2786 as the go to car 10 years ago. 2786 is waiting for some restoration time. Next year 2894 will get a bit of a beak as 2424 will be back in the regular rotation.




This is a shot of TR car 1326. This car was built in 1910 by the Toronto Railway Company in their own Witchwood shops. She is one of over 400 double truck TR's built between 1903 and 1911. An all wood car it was built originally before the PAYE system of fare collecting occured. This car was rebuilt in 1919 as a PAYE car following the lead of the nearside cars. 1326 is also the museum's reason for being.The saving from scrap of this car was what prompted the founders to start the museum.


Rob

[siberianmo]

SUNDAY’s INFO & SUMMARY of RECENT POSTS

It’s SUNDAY and the bar is CLOSED! You may drop off your Posts through the mail slots in either set of front doors.

It’s also SUNDAY PHOTO POSTING DAY! So, c’mon, show us what you “got”! [swg]

Info for the Day:

Monday is Boris’ Bash and Halloween Party! Plan to be here between Noon and 7 PM! Given the vast differences in time zones, let’s just call it “Eastern Time,” since this is Manager Ted’s show. [swg]

INDEX Monday’s only!

SUMMARY

Name - Date/Time - (Page#) – Remarks

(1) siberianmo Tom Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 06:07:12 (150) Saturday’s Info & Summary

(2) siberianmo Tom Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 06:13:10 (150) ENCORE! Fallen Flag – SP

(3) siberianmo Tom Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 08:59:40 (150) reply to trolleyboy

(4) Theodorebear Ted Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 09:32:41 (150) PE, Part II

(5) passengerfan Al Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 10:36:36 and 10:39:53 (150) SP

(6) siberianmo Tom Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 12:43:05 (150) ENCORE! Fallen Flag – MoPAC

(7) siberianmo Tom Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 15:00:30 (150) reply to Theodorebear & passengerfan

(8) BudKarr BK Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 15:31:27 (150)

(9) earlydiesels Dan Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 19:48:09 (150)

(10) passengerfan Al Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 20:42:23 (150)

(11) siberianmo Tom Posted: 29 Oct 2005, 21:24:16 (150) reply to BudKarr – earlydiesels – passengerfan

=======================================
That’s it! [tup][;)]

Tom (Siberianmo) [4:-)] [oX)]
Proprietor of “Our” Place, an adult eating & drinking establishment!

[Anonymous]

Good day gents ... long time no see ... and how about them Sox? I'll just slip this note in the door slot here. I do keep up with the posts even when extremly busy, and am always amazed at the information y'all regulars are posting. The fallen-flag series is a wonderful addition to this thread. You fellows are an incredible resource of information!

Tom, just prior to your Mo. Pac. fallen flag, you posted the Southern Pacific. We only have a single 1918 Alco 2-10-2, 400,000 pounds and classified F1 at our museum. Unfortunately, it's one of several steamers on our locomotive line that sit outside in the elements to slowly rust away.

We also have a Pacific Fruit Express boxcar, that has a tie-in to the Southern Pacific.
(Sorry ... I don't have a photo) <I snatched this info from the internet>

It is through the Pacific Fruit Express Company that the Southern Pacific Railroad Company is provided with refrigerator car equipment for the heavy and fast movement of fresh fruit and vegetables to markets; special equipment for heater service also is provided.

At the time the company was organized by the Southern Pacific and the Union Pacific in 1906 the relatively small tonnage of perishables moving to eastern markets was handled by a limited number of cars owned by private interests. Pacific Fruit Express started its operation with 6000 refrigerated cars. By mid-1955 it had nearly 39,000 refrigerator cars in service. Included were 337 mechanically operated "super-giant" refrigerator cars designed to serve the frozen food industry. Starting in 1951 mechanical icing machines were being installed progressively at a number of major terminals - Hearne, Texas was included in this installation.

Cars of the Pacific Fruit Express Company operate over most railroad lines in the nation, also in Mexico and Canada. Icing platforms, icing plants, and car shops are located in 15 states. More than 465,000 carloads of perishables were handled by PFE in the peak year of 1946. In 1954 the total was almost 400,000 cars.

The Pacific Fruit Express Company began operations in Hearne in 1929 when a 45 car icing platform was constructed. The operation of this platform during the peak season requires the services of 30 workmen. An average of ten to twelve thousand cars are iced at the Hearne platform annually.

Phillip J. Haas has served the Pacific Fruit Express Company as Agent for the Hearne icing platform since 1929. The company has recently placed an order for a thousand new mechanical refrigerator cars which will bring the total to 1800 mechanical refrigerated cars on the system.


Everyone remember my mystery passenger car from a few weeks back? Now it looks like this.

It certainly has the appearance of being scrapped, but I'm hoping instead that the ultimate plan is to salvage/morph from another car. I'll be watching. We easily have 100 years worth of restoration on the property.

[passengerfan]

good Morning Tom Guess I'll just have a coffee.
This week and next am going to be very busy with the books getting ready for final exams. And for someone suffering from CRS it seems i have to study twice as hard.

I did not have time to include this in yesterdays MP post so amd putting it in now for anyone interested.

The Missouri Pacific and Texas & Pacific inaugurated the lightweight streamlined TEXAS EAGLES 1-2 on August 15, 1948 sometimes referred to as the WEST TEXAS EAGLES between St. Louis, Little Rock, Texarkana, Dallas, and Fort Worth then on to El Paso. The new lightweight streamlined TEXAS EAGLES were not operated witha lightweight streamlined observation due to the amount of switching in route.

The TEXAS EAGLE between Fort Worth and Dallas was a much different train that the one that arrived from St. Louis that morning. The TEXAS EAGLE west of Fort Worth operated a single through sleeping car from St. Louis to El Paso and one or two through coaches. A full dining car operated in the TEXAS EAGLE trains only between St. Louis and Fort Worth. West of Fort Worth the TEXAS EAGLE operated a Dining Lounge Car. The TEXAS EAGLE west of Fort Worth carried a lot of head end traffic so anyone seeing the train in the distance would thgink it was the same train that arrived Fort Worth in the morning. It might be the same number of cars but most were head end cars.
The new TEXAS EAGLES were generally assigned a pair of EMD E7A units or ALCO PA-! units for power. The consists of the TEXAS EAGLES were comprised of cars from AC&Fwho built all but the sleeping cars and Pullman Standard who built the sleeping cars and sleeper lounge cars.
CONSIST ONE (Inaugural)
7004 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

7004B EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

100 (T&P) Baggage 30'Railway Post Office Car
(St.Louis - Dallas)

804 (MP) Baggage 15 Crew Dormitory Car
(St. Louis - Fort Worth)

451 (T&P) 60-Revenue Seat Coach
(St.Louis - El Paso)

896 (MP) 24-Seat Planetarium Dome 42-Revenue Seat Coach
(St. Louis - Fort Worth)

460 (T&P) 60-Revenue Seat Coach
(St. Louis - Fort Worth)

840 (MP) 44-seat Dining Car
(St. Louis - Fort Worth)

EAGLE CLIFF (MP) 5-Double Bedroom Soda Fountain 24 seat Lounge Car
(St. Louis - Fort Worth)

EAGLE GLIDE (MP) 14-Roomette 1-Drawing Room 2-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(ST. Louis - Fort Worth)

EAGLE CHAIN (MP) 14-Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(New York - St. Louis - El Paso)

EAGLE CREST (MP) 14 Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Washington - St. Louis - Fort Worth)

EAGLE DIVIDE (MP) 14-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Memphis - Fort Worth via Little Rock)

CONSIST TWO (Inaugural)

7010 EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

7010B EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

101 (T&P) Baggage 30' Railway Post Office Car
(Dallas - St. Louis)

304 (T&P) Baggage 15 Crew Dormitory Car
(Fort Worth - St. Louis)

450 (T&P) 60-Revenue Seat Coach
(El Paso - St. Louis)

200 (T&P) 24-Seat Planetarium Dome 42-Revenue Seat Coach
(Fort Worth - St. Louis)

461 (T&P) 60-Revenue Seat Coach
(Fort Worth - St. Louis)

500 (T&P) 44-Seat Dining Car
(Fort Worth - St. Louis)

18 EAGLE CANYON (T&P) 5-Double Bedroom Soda Fountain 24-Seat Lounge Car
(Fort Worth - St. Louis)

17 EAGLE FLIGHT (T&P) 14-Roomette 1-Drawing Room 2-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Fort Worth - St. Louis)

1 EAGLE BAY (T&P) 14-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(El -Paso - St. Louis - New York)

3 EAGLE ISLAND (T&P) 14 Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Fort Worth - St. Louis - Washington)

5 EAGLE PATH (T&P) 14-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
(Fort Worth - Memphis via Little Rock)

The two planetarium cars in the above consist were not added until June - July 1952. They actually replaced two 60 revenue seat coaches.

The westbound TEXAS EAGLE was discontinued between Fort Worth and El Paso beginning in 1964.

The TEXAS EAGLE was combined with the LOUISIANA EAGLE between Longview and Fort Worth in 1969.

The remnant of the TEXAS EAGLE(No sleepers no dining) was thankfully in 1971 at the start of Amtrak.

Ta Ta for now