American nasty export smokes? Not that I'm aware of. As a matter of fact if all those war movies I used to watch are to be believed people overseas were thrilled to get their hands on American cigarettes. As I've heard plenty of times in the movies...
"Ach! Amerikanische zigaretten! Wunderbar!" Or in some films...
"Ah-so! Amelican zigalettes!"
And I can tell you from first-hand experience (A NATO operation in the 1970's) folks in Europe were still crazy about American cigarettes! The troops were trading cartons of 'em to the locals for all kinds of stuff!
And unless I'm mistaken filtered cigarettes didn't show up until the post-war era, prior to then they all were unfiltered.
Certainly, brands have come and gone, for various reasons.
MiningmanNot railroad but Classic .. Sweet Caps are long gone
I enjoyed seeing that.
There was a time in Canada when there was price variation in cigarettes. Sweet Caps were the cheapest, except for single nickel ones.
I remember my uncle and Dad sitting around the kitchen table talking about how happy they were once they got good enough jobs that they could afford to no longer have to smoke Sweet Caps. Before my time, but I guess they were bad.
Did Americans ever have Export "A" or their brutal unfillterd counterparts, Export?
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Phoenixville! I know where that is, I've been there! Just down the road a bit from Valley Forge National Park. Those were Reading tracks, now they're Norfolk-Southern.
I'm sure most of you have figured it out already, but the name Phoenixville comes from the Phoenix Iron Company.
Yes, the old Reading station is still there. The last time I saw it it was a restaurant-brew pub-sports bar. Or something similar. Anything but a train station.
Nice, interesting old town is Phoenixville. Here's the historical society website...
https://www.hspa-pa.org
And for the story of the "Griffen Gun," otherwise know as the US Three Inch Ordnance Rifle made by the Phoenix Iron Works during the Civil War...
https://www.hspa-pa.org/picture_gallery_griffengun.html
A good piece of gear, that Griffen gun. None were known to fail, that is crack open or blow up during the war years, and many stayed in service until the 1890's. In fact they were so strong many were used in breechloader conversion experiments.
CN and CP both ran open-air observation cars well into the 1960s.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Miningman #2 Sticking with the elevated, here's an interesting perspective on the operation, from its security guards on high.
#2 Sticking with the elevated, here's an interesting perspective on the operation, from its security guards on high.
One of my top three time travel destinations, the Art Deco paradise that is long gone; there were the terminals of American's best crack trains and ocean liners, vintage elevator that took people to the top of the World, extinct historical cuisines inside or outside the dining car; home of legendary musician, writer, and entrepreneur; the capital of everything that you don't want to miss... (except those negative things that you could find in this article: http://lifewithoutbuildings.net/2013/12/design-decoded-traveling-in-style-and-comfort-the-pullman-sleeping-car.html)
Miningman#3 Along the Reading. The rather oddly named Phoenixville sports a beautiful station. Research has told me that the towers are gone but the main part remains, however, not railroad related any longer.
A History of Rail in Phoenixville:
Phoenixville Mayor Peter Urscheler has been working on bringing back the rail service to Phoenixville. An article from April 2019:
https://www.pottsmerc.com/news/phoenixville-hosting-rail-service-town-hall-on-monday/article_c61edfd4-6147-11e9-aae1-9f132a03942d.html
Miningman4) Another pleasant scene. I could hang out here on a nice spring day even if nothing was happening. Virginian electrics and a Trainmaster. Not bad.
That Virginian EL-2B on the right-hand side missing one truck!
Miningman6) Another look at those Canadian Pacific Dome cars , 40 years before Dome cars!
CP also had "sunbathing car" like this:
Miningman 8) What's your Slumber Number?
2046
Jones 3D Modeling Club https://www.youtube.com/Jones3DModelingClub
Well then how about this as a reasonable and not too far fetched alternate take.
After WWII the USA and Canadian Governments agree to electrify all railroad main and major branch lines, gratis, free of charge, complete and total, power stations and all. This as a reward and recognition for the Herculean effort provided in winning the war. Also in the best interest of both nations, an eye to the future and national security.
Also included is a major upgrade in Interurbans and Streetcar lines, a transformation from rickety shoestring operations to world leading cutting edge services and equipment. Also very much in the national interest and a terrific investment in the future.
General Electric and Westinghouse and minor players would benefit. EMD would not dominate the market and the steam builders, no strangers to electrics, such as Baldwin, would be on an even par.
Keep steam on a retreating basis as the new system was built, maybe 10 years.
Smaller branch lines and yards would remain the stronghold of Diesel switchers of which everyone built a good one. This also avoids complicated and rather ugly catenary situations.
That could have happened and perhaps should have happened. Maybe those P-1a's may still be in use today.
I know pie in the sky but we would be better off today.
MiningmanCatenary coming down anywhere is short sighted and backwards.
Certainly NOT in Cleveland. The double engine change added cost and aggravation, even if it did simplify run-through fueling for engines to the east and west of the electrified section. Note that the true fast trains had to be routed via the lakefront line as they couldn't afford the delay to do it smoothly for sleeping passengers twice, and steam power couldn't transit the Terminal Tower complex.
With the introduction of dieseliners, this problem goes away. Bingo! instant 15-minute or more reduction of time possible, fewer costs, less overhead... no issues balancing or assuring run-through power.
Meanwhile NYC indeed WAS considering extended main line electrification ... but not on 3000VDC. And of course no application for it in the Park Avenue tunnels (we would be renaming it Spark Avenue in no time!) so ... no use for catenary as built in Cleveland.
That the motors themselves were extraordinary can be easily shown by their long life as rebuilt. I saw no other electric power on Amtrak or other conventional PC trains at Harmon any time in the early '70s (there were FL-9 trains but they invariably departed southbound under typically asthmatic diesel power).
I was certain they were keeping the one in 'lightning stripe' for preservation, as it hung around for so long; I still can't quite believe they are all gone...
Miningman The P-1a's were also good looking locomotives, although most electrics were, and that's without any sort of streamlining. Most look every bit as good as a GG1 which had that benefit. They definitely had a railroad look to them, powerful and mysterious.
The P-1a's were also good looking locomotives, although most electrics were, and that's without any sort of streamlining. Most look every bit as good as a GG1 which had that benefit. They definitely had a railroad look to them, powerful and mysterious.
The P-1a's were indeed good looking locomotives. I reviewed the characteristic curves for the GE-278-C-1500/3000 motor, looks like the P-1a would have been good for at least 6,000dbhp short term.
Imagine taking the design for the P-1a, adding another powered axle to each truck (2-D+D-2 instead of 2-C+C-2), changing the gearing to 80/21 instead of 74/27 for more mountainous service, adding regenerative braking and a longer streamlined cab - the result would be a Little Joe.
The suicide curve on the old NY City elevated, but this time under steam power!
#3 Along the Reading. The rather oddly named Phoenixville sports a beautiful station. Research has told me that the towers are gone but the main part remains, however, not railroad related any longer.
4) Another pleasant scene. I could hang out here on a nice spring day even if nothing was happening. Virginian electrics and a Trainmaster. Not bad.
5) CN/Wabash service facilities and yard in Fort Erie. It was a very busy place for a hundred years, even into the modern era, but no longer! Everything is gone except for a portion of the locomotive service building. It is the home of a struggling Railroad Museum.
6) Another look at those Canadian Pacific Dome cars , 40 years before Dome cars!
7) A sad thing. Big Oil, Big Rubber, Big Auto did their job well. Beware the Military Industrial Complex. The Good News is Streetcars and Interurban type operations are making a comeback and it seems to be accelerating. Perhaps we are coming to our senses, in a sense anyway.
8) Sleeping cars making a huge comeback in Europe. Maybe it will begin here anew as well! Climate, Privacy and a Bed! Sounds good to me ! Get there rested, not all flustered. An airplane can't do any of those things.
What's your Slumber Number?
The Lehigh Valley 4-8-4 Wyoming's were beautifully proportioned locomotives, every bit as iconic as the NYC Hudson's but certainly less well known or at least talked about. Gone far too soon.
Catanery coming down anywhere is short sighted and backwards.
rcdrye gmpullman Are these the M-G sets? The electrical machines are rotary converters. Basically a large 3 phase motor connected to a DC generator.
gmpullman Are these the M-G sets?
The electrical machines are rotary converters. Basically a large 3 phase motor connected to a DC generator.
Slight nit-pick on terminology, "rotary converter" is usually considered to be a synonym for "synchronous converter", which is a machine with a single armature with a commutator on one end (DC) and slip rings on he other end (AC). The windings are connected to both the commutator and slip rings. Since much of the conversion is effectively done by mechanical rectification, the synchronos converter is typically cheaper and more effeicient than a motor generator (M-G) set. The down side is that a 60Hz synchronous converter is limited to about 750VDC. The IC and South Shore 1500VDC electrification had several substations with two converters in series.
FWIW, a "Dynamotor" has a single armature with commutators on both ends and is used convert on DC voltage to another. On the CUT locomotives, the dynamotor has two essentially identical sets of windings insulated from each other and each winding set is connected to just one commutator apiece (i.e. one winding connected to the "A" end commutator and the other winding connected to the "B" end commutator). The brush connections for the two commutators are connected in series, so each set of windings is carrying 1500VDC, with the winding connected between +3000VDC and +1500VDC acting as a motor and the winding connecting +1500VDC and +0VDC acting as a generator. As with a synchronous converter, the dynamotor is cheaper and a bit more efficient than a DC to DC motor generator set.
Dynamotors were used in tube type mobile two way radios to provide the high voltage for the B+ supply (typ 250 to 400V).
To gmpullman: Those were indeed the M-G sets used to supply the 3000VDC for the CUT electrification. They consisted of a 360rpm synchronous motor in the center and two 1500VDC generators (one at each end) wired in series.
And thank you very much for uploading the scans of the GE CUT bulletin to flckr!
The last two T-3 Wyomings, just after the locomotive pictured, had roller bearings on all axles (probably a result of the Four Aces demonstrator). They are notable in being a 'high-speed' design just at the dawn of the age of true high-speed balancing and design, the best of 'conventional' wisdom just before things would change dramatically.
Very few people know about them ... which is a shame.
Miningman#3 A Lehigh Valley hat trick tonight. Nice to know the Central had some competition on the Honeymoon business!
"Ernest Lehr, Superintendent of Motive Power for the Lehigh Valley Railroad, watches as the last westbound "Black Diamond" leaves Sayre, PA on May 11, 1959."
Sayre Evening Times photo.
Richard Palmer collection.
https://scotlawrence.github.io/BDE1896/BDE-page3.html
"The final run of the Black Diamond Express occurred on May 11, 1959, 63 years after the first run on May 18, 1896."
LV Class T-3 (77" driver):
https://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr2821.htm
"Although the pacifics were the primary power, the new 4-8-4 Wyomings did haul the train on occasion, when super-power was needed. Although the 4-8-4 Wyomings were used primarily as freight power, five of the type, the T3 class wyomings, were designed as dual-service engines and did see some use in passenger service."
gmpullmanAre these the M-G sets?
The "Dynamotor" in the carbody served two functions, providing 1500 VDC so a single compressor could be operated by itself and providing a shaft for a low voltage (74VDC or 32 VDC, maybe with taps for both) generator for headlights and control circuits.
CUT's electrification is the only one I know of that used chain in some of the catenary "pull-offs".
Penny TrainsToo bad neither the locomotives or their facilities survived into the museum and restoration era.
The P1a shed has survived. Not sure if CSX uses it for anything anymore. It was unoccupied a few years ago when I took this shot:
P1A_shed by Edmund, on Flickr
The Linndale inspection shed still stands. It borders a junk yard near W. 130th St.
Linndale_P1a-Inspection1 by Edmund, on Flickr
P-1a New at Erie:
CUT_1050crop by Edmund, on Flickr
— and a whole gaggle of them:
GE_Erie_p1a by Edmund, on Flickr
Not all of the catenary supports survived,
CUT_R-of-W by Edmund, on Flickr
Here's the equipment layout inside the carbody:
P-1a_General Apparatus by Edmund, on Flickr
Are these the M-G sets?
CUT_GE_1930_06 by Edmund, on Flickr
P-1a No. 218 was the first to be trial-converted to third rail. Retired in 1948 and the work was done at Harmon in 1951.
The very last operation of the P-1a in Cleveland was on November 16, 1953.
Around 1954 the other motors were returned to Erie to be converted to third rail. Anyone know what the story is behind No. 220 that was destroyed by fire? Was it actually in Erie or did it not make it there and caught fire somewhere else?
CUT_P1a_Erie by Edmund, on Flickr
Thank you, Ed
Two of the M-G sets used to provide the 3,000VDC for the locomotives were bought by the Milwaukee. these sets were rated for 3MW coninuously, 4.5MW for two hours and 9MW for five minutes. One went to Janney, where it assisted the three existing 1.5MW sets for powering trains over the continental divide and the other went to Tacoma, so the existing 2MW set could be added to the Doris substation.
These sets were beefy enough that the caternary could be hit by lightning with only a hort growl coming out of the commutators on the DC generators.
CUT class P1a:
Collinwood Yard repair facility on the east end of CUT:
Cab view:
Linndale facility on the West end:
This photo is labled "First crew of student engineers for the CUT electrics."
Too bad neither the locomotives or their facilities survived into the museum and restoration era.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Of course the CUT with P-motors was Cleveland. The catenary bridges are still in use by Cleveland's RTA.
The CUT P1 motors as built had GE278C motors, just slightly larger than the 746 motors used onthe Erie-builts and Virginian's EL-2B motors. As P2 motors on the NYC, they had 755A motors, which were similar internally to the 746, but had different cases.
Ah, pictures three, four, and five...
If I remember the drill correctly, Lehigh Valley trains were pulled into and out of New York's Pennsylvania Station by the PRR. They were received from and handed off to the Lehigh Valley at the Waverly Avenue interchange in Newark NJ. Obviously the Valley's locomotives (steam or diesel) couldn't operate through the Hudson River tunnels.
Awesome shot of that Erie diesel "blowing it's nose!" I don't think it's Jersey City, Chicago maybe?
Nice nostalgic shot of that corner store, a nice reminder of the days when most neighborhoods had one. I think "Sweet Caporals" lasted into the 1960's, in the American market anyway. I've heard of O'Keefe's Ale but don't know when they passed from the scene. A lot of old-time brews fell by the wayside when tastes changed or they were bought out by other breweries.
That old house to the right of the corner store is interesting as well. I wonder how old, and what kind of story it has to tell?
Wow. Jackpot! Thanks Dude, really interesting and great info.
Miningman Great discussions. Someone will know what's happening here. Lehigh Valley with FA-FB-FA, ( think that's a 5 not a 6, but maybe it is 6 then it's a PA) a long string of heavyweights and a switcher on the end. Must be at one of their shops? It's a bit unusual.
Great discussions.
Someone will know what's happening here. Lehigh Valley with FA-FB-FA, ( think that's a 5 not a 6, but maybe it is 6 then it's a PA) a long string of heavyweights and a switcher on the end. Must be at one of their shops? It's a bit unusual.
I see steam generator vents on all three units.
The lead unit is FPA-2 594, one of two purchased by LV. They also got two FPB-2's. So that photo contains 75% of the small fleet.
For about a year in 1954-1955 594 and B-unit 583 were used to test the then-new ALCO 251 engine.
#2 Sticking with Lehigh Valley. This is just too great!
#3 A Lehigh Valley hat trick tonight. Nice to know the Central had some competition on on the Honeymoon business!
4) One for the Erie fans. A very proud moment, all is well on the Erie.
#5 Not railroad but Classic .. Sweet Caps are long gone, O'Keefe Ale long gone, suspect the store is long gone as well... and the cart. Corner of Markham and Queen in Toronto. The Streetcars still roam Queen though!
rcdryeCincinatti Union Terminal "P Motor"
That was another Ohio city, Cleveland
I think this is right about the motoring - single motor and pinion, but if I remember correctly the motors built in a CUT P-motor are a bit different (and this facilitated their rebuilding from 3000V to 750V when opportunity came; we had a thread on these.)
Suspect UP would still be comparing these to a FEF, "100%" of which would be 'derated' if not working. I think E2s still had those cable hoists on runners so riding maintainers could change out engine components on the fly...
It is possible that the GE turbines were billed as 'low maintenance' especially compared to contemporary reciprocating steam power. They certainly had a better water rate ... even at the worst of times! ... compared to any other Union Pacific steam power.
The electric motor noise would depend on how the motors were mounted in the trucks. My guess is that the chassis is basically a Cincinatti Union Terminal "P Motor" with GE 746 motors, which would be about the right size for the job. A GG1 would have more clicks due to the quill drive and dual motors per axle.
UP already had 5400HP E2s in service at the time the steam turbines showed up. My guess is that the relative ease of maintenance was pretty obvious to UP folks, along with the ability to de-rate the E2s in blocks of 900HP, not 2500.
All the discussions I've read indicate the brown running gear. I wholeheartedly believe that gray would have been better even if retaining brown on the car body; I did not like the brown roof, either, and would think it better in the later Harbor Mist.
I don't think any modeler has much of an idea what these things would sound like in operation, and have just assigned likely files to various CVs as they think seems appropriate. There would be flash-boiler noise reasonably predictable from the sound signature of something like a big OK-series Vapor-Carlson steam generator, and probably some blowing or gurgling from condensate ... but little audible steam hissing, even when running at high power but low speed. This raises the question of the sound of train-heat steam generation, which sure didn't come from the distilled water in the turbine circuit...
Plenty of gear noise and various ticks and spangs from the underframes. with age. This might be cribbed from GG1s, with editing of frequencies and power spectra to reflect the differences in motors and final drive.
Most of the noise is indeed going to be condenser and other fan noise, and it will need to be varied in 'swell' as the louver sections modulate open and closed and various winter panels come to be applied behind the grilles.
Looking at the early colour film, it appeared to me that the turbines were grey below the yellow and not brown. The first City trains were brown but LA4/5/6 and SF 4/5/6 were grey. Since the Turbines were between these either is possible but it looks grey to me.
Shouldn't the model sound be that of the condenser cooling fans rather than the hiss of steam?
Peter
Overmod Hey, I didn't realize the Overland used electroluminescent panels on the nose! I could put them on mine! Sad that neither engine did the chassis with proper detail. It deserved better than to be painted brown.
Hey, I didn't realize the Overland used electroluminescent panels on the nose! I could put them on mine!
Sad that neither engine did the chassis with proper detail. It deserved better than to be painted brown.
It is modded. There was a video showing a collector modifying the UP steam turbine. The original panels had a tiny light bulb under it. Toleration is inevitable even after you spent several thousand for an HO scale model; there is always at least one mistake, some minor damaged parts, and running problem...
Overmod The nose is nowhere near as bulbous in line as it appears in some of those photographs, including at least two in the YouTube pastiche that are displaying in 'stretch' aspect ratio to common effect. The 'streamliner' corrugated siding around the windows is not metal fluting, as on passenger cars: it is vent grilles. As I recall there was a lot of optional venting, much of it made to be blocked off in the wintertime. You would not run these back-to-back because the condensers would interfere with each other if you did. There was a relatively large swept area back there. My HO scale models have a fun little detail: all the vertical louvers move in sync when you push them with a toothpick!
The nose is nowhere near as bulbous in line as it appears in some of those photographs, including at least two in the YouTube pastiche that are displaying in 'stretch' aspect ratio to common effect.
The 'streamliner' corrugated siding around the windows is not metal fluting, as on passenger cars: it is vent grilles. As I recall there was a lot of optional venting, much of it made to be blocked off in the wintertime.
You would not run these back-to-back because the condensers would interfere with each other if you did. There was a relatively large swept area back there. My HO scale models have a fun little detail: all the vertical louvers move in sync when you push them with a toothpick!
Interesting detail on the real engine and your HO scale model as well! This is the lighting mod on the Overland version:
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