I got about 50-75% of the answer, since eating dinner on the Tennesean while in Alexandria gave the right train and the right answer for one of the two meals, without the name of the diner being necessary. But I'll be glad to defer to Johnny for the next quesiton if he wishes to ask it. He probably knew the complete answer without looking at mine, since he actually ate meals on the trian, where I brown bagged it, since I was a youngster and my parents had equipped me with the food to eat on the train, the one time I actually did ride the Tennesean.
AWP290 In the later years of the Georgia Group of railroads (A&WP-WofA-GaRR), the diesel units were run interchangeably between roads (GaRR and West Point Route.) This practice started only in the early 1960's, however, and in the 1950's the units stayed on home rails. Why?
In the later years of the Georgia Group of railroads (A&WP-WofA-GaRR), the diesel units were run interchangeably between roads (GaRR and West Point Route.) This practice started only in the early 1960's, however, and in the 1950's the units stayed on home rails.
Why?
Public relations. The first diesels were bound to get noticed, so they let people see their own state or capital city painted on a locomotive.
Another wild guess is some kind of legal impediment until the ownership changed.
Mike
It wasn't public relations.
Your second guess is a bit vague. Can you elaborate?
Bob
About this time SR and L&N were brougt up apart of these lines since the early 50s. They were aquire as a parnership. They lines still run under thier old names until the 70s. Just look at the early diesels some were painted like SR and L&N but had diffent names. L&N even paid for the restoring of the General and the Texas for the 100 anniversary of thier famous trip.
The exact legal impediment remains unknown. The change of ownership was Southern Ry's purchase of Central of Georgia, which, jointly with L&N , had leased Georgia RR from the State.
Right forest, (legal) wrong tree (lease.)
The Georgia Railroad was owned by the Georgia Railroad & Banking Company, not the State of Georgia. (The Western & Atlantic was, and still is, owned by the State of Georgia.) By the time we are discussing (circa 1962), it was leased jointly by the Louisville & Nashville Railroad and the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad, the Central's interest in the lease having been eliminated in the early 1890's and assumed by the L&N (which assigned it to the ACL.)
The Southern had nothing to do with it, nor did the fact that the Georgia Railroad was a leased property
Good shot, but off the mark.
Bob Hanson
Gee, if you're gonna make us sweat all the details, I have two guesses for no. 2:
The change of diesels from road-specific to run through was occasioned by:
The new technology of diesels, which didn't have to be refuled so often, and never needed the ashes removed, and so could run for hundreds of miles, allowing, say, a diesel to run thru Atlanta or nearby division points (and involving two or more of the constitutent companies' lines) without decoupling the engine for "feeding and watering" and putting on a different one; and/or
A change in labor practices under which the union allowed some runs to be run-throughs (e.g.., CoG/SouRwy a possible example) whereas the individual lines' terminals in the past had been end-of-line = mandatory crew change.
Notice that I set it up as an "and/or" for any of you Philadelphia lawyers lurking out there.
BTW if I have somehow stumbled over the line into completing the answer, I don't think I deserve the win. Give it to Mike, as he furnished most of the correct info. - al
I am just guessing but two possibilities come to mind.
I know the Ga RR never had it but there may have been Automatic Train Stop installed on the West Point Route at one time. Since the Ga RR's engines were not equipped for ATS they had to stay on their home rails.
The other possibility is that radio communications were used on one road (probably the West Point Route) but not yet on the other (Ga RR). Of course the reverse could have been true but in any event since the engines of one road were not originally radio equipped they could not run on the rails of the other.
Mark
I'll give it to Mike for his generic "legal issues" answer, although in my opinion it was a little too generic.
The first generation diesels were purchased under a Conditional Sale Agreement (CSA) that contained language confining the units to home rails except in cases of dire emergency. This wording kept the units on their respective roads until they were paid for in the late 1950's and early 1960's. In later locomotive purchases, the term "home rails" was broadened to include the affiliated roads so this restriction was removed.
Go to it, Mike.
KCSfan I know the Ga RR never had it but there may have been Automatic Train Stop installed on the West Point Route at one time. Since the Ga RR's engines were not equipped for ATS they had to stay on their home rails. Mark
I, also, had no idea as to the basis for the change in operation.
Johnny
The installation of an utomatic block system (using semiphores) was begun on the West Point Route in 1917 and was completed in 1922, after being interrupted by World War I. The Georgia Railroad had a color light block system. Neither road had ATS.
Bob Hanson , Loganville, GA
He was in charge of laying the first section of passenger railroad track in the U.S. He built the Boston & Albany line through the Berkshires for the Western RR of Massachusetts. In what year did the American civil engineer selected by the Russians to build the St. Petersburg & Moscow Railroad graduate from West Point?
Whistler's Father, George Washington Whistler, graduated from West Point in 1819. Most people know of the portrait, "Whistler's Mother," painted by James McNeill Whistler, the first son of George Washington Whistler and his second wife, Anna Matilda McNeill.
Johnny, yes your turn. George Washington Whistler. With a cool name like that, he should be more famous than what's his name, the artist.
wanswheel Johnny, yes your turn. George Washington Whistler. With a cool name like that, he should be more famous than what's his name, the artist.
In 1930, the Illinois Central participated in through sleeper service between Chicago and Mobile. What other road participated, and where was the transfer between roads made?
Johnny,
I am not familiar with this sleeper route but I'll hazard a guess (several in fact). Your use of the word raod not roads suggests only one railroad other than the IC was involved.
By 1930 the IC had absorbed the Gulf & Ship Island so a route over the former lines of the latter would not count as a separate road. The most direct route would be IC between Chicago and Gulfport and L&N between Gulfport and Mobile. Of course a hand off between the IC and L&N could also been made at either New Orleans or Birmingham. I consider these last two less likely since they both are longer.
The only other route that seems likely to me would involve the Gulf Mobile & Northern. If this was the other road the transfer probably would have been at Jackson, MS though it conceivably could have been at Jackson, TN or even Laurel.
Sorry, Mark; you missed the mark, for the L&N and GM&N were not involved; the route was shorter than either one via Jackson, Miss.
IC interchanged a sleeper with the FRISCO at Memphis. Then to Mobile via Aliceville, AL and York.
FlyingCrow IC interchanged a sleeper with the FRISCO at Memphis. Then to Mobile via Aliceville, AL and York.
If there was only one road in addition to the IC this couldn't have been the route. In 1930 the line from Aliceville to Mobile was the AT&N which wasn't acquired by the Frisco until later.
The Mobile and Ohio comes to mind as a possibility. Perhaps the car was handled in that roads Gulf Coast Special from a connection with the IC at either N.Cairo or Memphis.
Oh, darn...that's right. So it WAS the IC - M&O connection at Cairo.
Scratch Memphis from my last reply. I meant to say Jackson, TN - the M&O didn't run to Memphis. The tranxfer point could even have been St. Louis which was another connection between the IC and M&O.
I should have done more research before writing replies. A 1937 OG is the closest one I have to 1930 and it DOES show a M&O line from Corinth to Memphis but lists it as freight only. Perhaps there was passenger service on that line in 1930 in which case Memphis could actually have been the possible transfer point. Corinth itself comes to mind as another possibility whIch I had previously overlooked.
KCSfan FlyingCrow: IC interchanged a sleeper with the FRISCO at Memphis. Then to Mobile via Aliceville, AL and York. If there was only one road in addition to the IC this couldn't have been the route. In 1930 the line from Aliceville to Mobile was the AT&N which wasn't acquired by the Frisco until later. The Mobile and Ohio comes to mind as a possibility. Perhaps the car was handled in that roads Gulf Coast Special from a connection with the IC at either N.Cairo or Memphis. Mark
FlyingCrow: IC interchanged a sleeper with the FRISCO at Memphis. Then to Mobile via Aliceville, AL and York.
Mark, thank you for the response about the Frisco/AT&N. I do not know just what year the Frisco took control of the AT&N, but it was not until 1971 that the Reform-Mobile road was fully absorbed; until then it was listed as a separate road in the Guide, but always next to the Frisco’s representation. The Frisco did have through freight service into Mobile, interchanging with the AT&N in Aliceville. I regret that I did not pursue the idea of riding it Aliceville-Mobile when I lived in Reform.
Also, you kept trying when you were ahead. In the same post, you gave the correct answers, although in 1930 what came to be known as North Cairo was known as Cairo Junction.
The other routings were possible, especially when roads had such interesting routings as Mobile-Chicago via Southern to Chattanooga through Selma, Alabama, and Rome, Georgia, thence Queen and Crescent to Cincinnati and then Big 4 to Chicago.
As to M&O into Memphis, the road had trackage rights from Corinth on the Southern, but no passenger service is shown in the Guide. There were also trackage rights from Corinth to Birmingham, over the IC’s route, which had trackage rights Haleyville-Jasper over the Southern and Jasper-Birmingham over the IC; again, there is no passenger service shown.
As to St. Louis, the GM&O had, for several years, a Chicago-Mobile sleeper that ran entirely on the GM&O–Alton Limited/Gulf Coast Rebel southbound, and Gulf Coast Rebel/Abraham Lincoln northbound. It did not compete successfully with the C&EI/L&N Hummingbird’s Chicago-Mobile service.
It’s now your question.
Unlike most of our questions this one deals with freight rather than passenger service.
In the 1930's a certain road inagurated a fast freight service which they named the xxxx Komet (the xxxx being the name of the railroad). What was the full name of this service, the cities between which it operated and the OFFICAL name of the railroad over whose lines it ran?
Mark, I finally looked it up in my 1930 GUIDE and the IC - M&O deal is it.
In this question, you are referring to the KATY KOMET, Missouri-Kansas-Texas of course, but my guessing part is Kansas City-Dallas.
Gee, I wish I'd started reading this forum a long time ago...I've been a subscriber to CT since issue one and before...when it was Vintage Rails. This is fun.
FlyingCrow In this question, you are referring to the KATY KOMET, Missouri-Kansas-Texas of course, but my guessing part is Kansas City-Dallas. Gee, I wish I'd started reading this forum a long time ago...I've been a subscriber to CT since issue one and before...when it was Vintage Rails. This is fun.
I know I speak for other fans when I say welcome to the CT forums. It's good to have you aboard.
Good job - The Katy Komet is correct but you're a bit off base on the cities served.. Also the M-K-T was not the OFFICIAL name of the railroad. Do a little more checking and/or guessing to see if you can clear up these points.
The Katy Komet ran from St. Louis and Kansas City to San Antonio and operated over the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad Company and its Texas subsidiary (to satisfy the Texas corporation laws) the Missouri-Kansas-Texas Railroad Company of Texas.
Bob Hanson. Loganville, GA
The KC to Texas fast freight was the Katy Klipper. The St. Louis - Texas route was the Komet. I had them backwards in my mind last night.
As near as I can determine from the representation in OG's of the period, the Katy Komet was not a single train but the name given to the Katy's fast, overnight freight service between Dallas/ Ft. Worth and San Antonio/Houston/Galveston. Southbound cars were carried in one train originating in Dallas and another originating in Ft. Worth. At the junction of the two lines near Hillsboro they were combined into a single train for the run to Granger. At Granger the train was again split with cars running in one train to San Antonio and in another to Houston and Galveston. This situation was reversed for cars running northbound. The OG's that I have of the late 1930's list the schedules of the Katy's other fast freights running between KC and StL and Texas but none of these are named. They are merely designated by train numbers.
The offical name of the road over which the Komet service ran was the Missour-Kansas-Texas Railroad Company of Texas.
I declare Flying Crow the winner and he has the opportunity to ask the first of what I expect will be many questions we'll see from him.
According to the March 1956 Official Guide the Katy Komet ran from both St. Louis (Tr. 81) and Kansas City (tr. 281) and they were combined at Parsons, KS.
This may have been a short-lived operation, but the train did, in fact, run from both STL and KC.
Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!
Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter