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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 1, 2022 2:49 AM

Union Railway 0-10-2?   Or was there a B&O 0-6-6-0?

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Posted by Backshop on Tuesday, March 1, 2022 7:56 AM

You are correct with the Union 0-10-2, since I specified 2 cylinder.  Your turn...

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 1, 2022 9:36 AM

Well, first, I hope someone attemps an answer to my questions on the other question thread.  A look at the summer anf autumn 1944 Official Guide might give the answers.

In what year did Long bIsland Railroad electric multiple unit trains first enter Manhattan?

As a bonus, describe the eequipment and route.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, March 2, 2022 8:30 AM

There was a physical connection between the LIRR and IRT near Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn which was never used for regular revenue service, but was used for a few test runs with LIRR's subway-sized MP41 cars, similar to the Gibbs cars used on the IRT.  I think the test runs were in 1908, not long after the Subway extension to Brooklyn opened. The first revenue runs of LIRR MUs into Manhattan came in on what is more or less today's route from Jamaica via the East River tunnels in 1910.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, March 2, 2022 11:46 PM

I was referring to revenue runs, only.   As far we know, if the connection at Atlantic avenue was ever tested, it was with the IRT"s Mineola, Aועודא Belmont's private car,  with modified composite body and Gibbs car electricals and mechaniucals.  You may have additional information.  

The first revenue service of LIRR MUs to Manhatan was over a year earlier than the LIRR opening of Pen  nsylvanias Statuion, which preceded PRR's use.  It was to different Manhattan extination, to a station that still exists in use, and was a service that lasted through summer 1916, and was even slightly extended to another Manhattan stationchaa. still in use.  Except for two short double-track connections, some remnants can still be seen from specific rapid transit lines, all the route is still in use, except for some different connecting tracks in two locations, but no possible direct duplication of the service is possible.  Instead you would have to change trains once during rush hours, twice at other times.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, March 7, 2022 4:02 AM

The sevice the  LIRR MUs that were the first to enter Manhattan and was run jointly with Brooklyn Rapid Transit.  LIRR never ran over the Brooklyn Bridge, although they bought cars for the purpose. Sand Street was the closest they came.

The LIRR had  0-4-4T Forney steamers, similar to those on the elevateds.  The service was inaugurated in July 189i8, from a ferry terminal, with thr BRT and LIRR equipment alternasting, continuing as a summer-only service.  In 1904, all BRT cars were MU motors and trailers, and only LIRR then provided the equipment.  Throughout the existance of the service BRT and LIRR crews changed at the elevated station closest to the connection, regardless of  which equipment was used, but both crews stayed on-board for the entire trip.

In 1906 the connection was electrified, and then only BRT equiopment was used.  In 1908, the service was diverted from thr ferry terminal to Manhattan

The elevated structure, which is still in use and is the oldest on the entire system, was strngthened, and on May 13th, 1909, LIRR MUs entered Manhattan for the first time, and BRT and LIRR trains then alternated in this summer service.

The service was extended two stations in Manhattan on 4 August 1913.  All three Manhattasn stations are still in use.  Steel BMT equipment was never used in this summer service.

The service last operated in September, 1917.  The specific LIRR MUs were never regularly scheduled for Penn Station trains, and  thus did not run to Manhattan again in regular service..

  

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, March 11, 2022 8:06 AM

Regarding RC's answer concerning the Flatbush Avenue Atlantic Avenue LIRR - IRT single-track connection, verbal history had its only use fior the Mineola, August Brlmont's private IRT composite subway, restorable at Branford, which could MU with the IRT Gibbs cars and composits, for trips with friends to Belmont Race Track and to his LI summer home.   No written record or picture has yet been found.  But LIRR equipment was not involved.

RC did nam the right LIRR equipment for the correct answer, and the LI destination of the correct summer service remained one destination these cars regularly had, the other being the Flatbush Avenue Terminal (instead of the two stations in Manhattan for the 1909 - 1917 summer service).

Since these cars did not use Brooklyn Bridge, and the two subway stations still are in use, the answer should be easy to find.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, March 11, 2022 11:30 AM

I'm thinking Whitehall Street (South Ferry) and either Cortland Street or City Hall.  The track map suggests Cortland Street might hae offered a good turnback location.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, March 12, 2022 12:35 PM

No.     Courtland Street and Whitehall Street stations were cinstructed under the duail contacts and were not open in 1908 when the operation rerached Manhattan with BRT MU elevated cars and in1909 when LIRR MP41s started providing half the service, nor in 1913 when the Manhattan end was extended by two stations to a new terminal, with all three stations still very much in use today.  Also in use the strengthened elevated structure, where steel cars replaced elevated cars, but only after the summer LIRR-BRT joint service ended.  And it is the NTCTA's oldest structure, dating back to steam says.

The 1914 terminal I find is now a terminal only for rush-hour short-turns, since the regular route goes another two stations before reversing, a 1931 extension.

You had the right general neighborhood but wrong specific subway line.

And Courtland and Whitehall always have had trains using either no elevated structure or one in South Brooklyn without any possible connection with LIRR passenger operations, other than Manhattan Beach, and no LIRR operation there ever used MP41s in any joint LIRR-BRT operation, or in any LIRR Manhattan Beach operation at all.   Correction, trains at Courtland and Whitehall did use the Queensboro Plaza Station, which can count as an elevated station, and some today during late night hours use that station and the elevated Astoria structure, but there is no and was no connection to the LIRR there, except a very temporary one to transfer or deliver IRT subway cars for the initial opening of the "Stineway Tunnel" as a Grand Central - Vernon Blvd. IRT subway line, part of today's "7."

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, March 12, 2022 1:03 PM

Here are MP-41s in-between runs from their outer terminal adjacent to this yard and the Flatbush Avenue Terminal.  This was also the terminal for the joint service that allowed them to reach Manhattan.   This yard has not changed, bit sees subway cars, not LIRR cars.  The terminal now has high platforms.

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, March 12, 2022 3:25 PM

Bowling Green and Chambers St.  

The later "joint service" involved transfers at Atlantic Avenue.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 13, 2022 4:54 AM

You got one station name right.  There is a BMT, former BRT. station by that name, at it was for the 1913-1917 BRT elevated-train cars and the LIRR MP-41s.  But an Atlantic Avenue Station as either a connection point for through service or where you have change trains today to dupoklicate the trip as closely as possible, and Bowling Green have zero to do with answering the question.  And since  Bowling Green is an IRT Station, you may be thinking of the IRT (7th Avenue) IRT Station.  The correct Chambers Street Station was a BRT (became the BMT after Malbone Street victim compensations and reorganization() station for BRT & LIRR joint service. IRT Chambers and the Atlantic Avenue Flatbush Terminal and the IRT in general were simply not involved in any way.

Today, the transfer points:  All the time including rush hours, between an elevated and a subway station (that did not exist until after WWII) requiring use of stairs or the elevator.  2nd non rush-hour transfer point, ground-level station, same platform, same track, just wait for the next train, probaly signed "S" foir shuttle outbound.

The BRT portion of the route is in use today,  Most of it is elevated, including the city's oldest elevated structuure.  Berfore 1916 most New Yorkers did not consider these three iManhattan (in-use today) subway stations as subway stations, but as underground elevated-train stations.  Steel cars came to just one of the stations in 1916 with the opening of the BRT's (to be the BMT's) first subway line. 

3 September 1917 saw the end of the BRT - LIRR joint service, which was not revived for the 1918 summer season.  The very next day the first portion of the BMT's Broadway (Manhattan) subway opened, with steel cars, of course, bringing steel cars to a second of three Manhattan stations served by the joint summer service, but at a different platform on a different level, with elevated-train cars continuing through the station as before.  The  first potion of the Broadway (Manhattan) BMT Subway was from Manhattan Bridge to 14th Street, Union Square.  Elevated-train cars continued to serve the three Manhattan stations that had been served by the joint service, including the BMT Chambers Street Station, until 22 August 1927, when enough "D-Types' arrived for steel standards released from Brighton and Sea Beach service to replace the elevated-train cars.  (Some steel cars did appear on the line beginning in 1918.)

As late as 1995, neighborhood people still referred to the BMT line used by summer joint service as "the elevated."  Probably still do!

Whitehall station saw first use as a non-passenger change-end station and  Rector Street for passengers on 5 January 1918, as the new south end of the BRT-BMT Broadway (Manhattan) Subway, and the north end was now Times Square.  The south end did not reach Brooklyn via the Montague Street Tunnel until 1 Augost 1920. 

 

 

 

's'

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, March 13, 2022 10:25 AM

It is the one single NYCTA route that still is mostly, probably about 75% or 80% on structure above grond level.

When you transfer at the elevated station to a trsin in the subway below, that train's route includes city-built subway (both pre- and post-WWII, some replacing BMT elevated  service), other BMT-originally-used city-built elevated structure, and lots of LIRR RoW and replacments for LIRR strcture and a bit of re-used LIRR structure.  It does not use the short stretch of LIRR Atlantic Avenue tracks that the joint service did (obviously still in use by orther LIRR services).   

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Monday, March 14, 2022 3:20 PM

Your historical comments are all correct, Dave.  The LIRR "Steam" Forney Loco hauled trains of their center door "EL style and size" gate cars (later those cars electrically wired and converted to run between electric LIRR MP-41 MU cars) - originally via the 5th Ave EL (Atlantic Av -Flatbush Av connection to LIRR) and via Hudson Street connection to Myrtle EL's to Sands Street, used the UPPER LEVEL Loop tracks at Sands Street --- and retuned to the LIRR at Atlantic & Flatbush Ave BRT 5th Ave EL connection that way.  That was prior to the opening of the Willy B Bridge of 1903 and prior to the actual start of BRT EL Gate Car (and LIRR MP-41 MU Cars) trains across the Bridge in 1908 via the BRT broadway EL Line.  The LIRR MP-41 steel MU "Gibbs" cars (they were the same appearance as the IRT-1904 built Gibbs cars) entered Manhattan ONLY via the Williamsburg Bridge via the BRT Broadway EL via the Chestnut Street ramp connection from that EL to the LIRR (then a 4 track surface line) main along Atlantic Avenue. 

Of course you know this also Dave !  ONLY the steam hauled LIRR center-door Gate Cars with Forney Locos used the BRT 5th Ave EL to Sands Street Station - operating & connecting via the Hudson-Myrtle EL connection.   LIRR MP-41 cars never ran that service, as those two EL structures (BRT 5th Ave. EL & BRT Myrtle EL) were not strong enough for steel cars loaded with passengers. 

 

The LIRR MP-41 "Gibbs Cars" as built, were designed to IRT dimensions ( 51 feet long,  and just under 9 feet wide.  These dimensions were used because the LIRR MP-41 Gibbs cars were planned to operate on IRT Subway lines via Atlantic-Av-Flatbush Terminal track connections (but NEVER DID)  as well as on the BRT Broadway EL which - at that time  as did ALL BRT lines)  run with  trains of BRT wooden gate cars of 46 to 48 feet length and just under 9 feet wide.

When joint LIRR-BRT EL operation ended the LIRR had already just prior dcdided to use their parent-company  Pennsyylvania Railroad's 10' wide new MP-54 electric MU car bodies as their new MU car fleets -  which became the LIRR MU Car standard until the 1960's.  Thus the MP-41 LIRR Gibbs cars had to have new steel trap doors on their vestibule platforms stepwells that protruded 6 inches out beyond the 9' wide car body sides at floor-line so as to meet the high level station platforms on the LIRR that were ALL clearance-fitted for all the various TEN FOOT WIDE freight cars, LIRR MP-54 MU Cars,  and heavyweight LIRR locomotive hauled passengers cars !

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, March 15, 2022 1:28 AM

Can you ask the next question?

RC: Note that when referring to the BMT's Manhattan Broadway Subway, I always referred to it as the Manhattan Broadway subway, hoping you would catch on that indeed the BRT-BMT had another Broadway Line, their Brooklyn Broadway Elevated.  And today, The J and its rush-hour only Z express are the only NYCTA routes that are primarily elevated routes, other than the M on Myrtle Avenue only during those periods when it is a shuttle from Metropolitan Avenue only to Broadway and Myrtle and does not contintue via the Broadway Elevated. Williamsburg Bridge and much subway mileage to Forest Hills, Queens.

The route's structure on East Fulton Street, east of Eastern Parkway - Broadway Junction is the oldest actual structure on the entire system, strengthened, but not replaced. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, April 2, 2022 8:29 PM

Joe Frank apparently will not ask the next question, so here goes:

Boston's Beacon Street, between St. Mary's Street and Harvard Street at Coolidge Corner, has the oldest operating electric railway tracks in North America, a horse-car line electrified in 1889.  It should have National Landmark status, in my opinion.

Today's route differs in two major ways fron the originsal route.  Today's route does use a facility with Landmark status.  What are the differences between the oiriginal route and today's?

Optional:  What was the experimentation with a different form of current collection on the original route?

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Posted by Joseph Frank on Sunday, April 3, 2022 12:51 PM

Dave --

I have no idea WHAT you mean when you wrote  that I  "will not ask the next question".  !!!   I have no idea what you want me to ask?  Do you ??  I don't think anyone else here does either !  Also, I am basically not a historian on Boston transit - tho I do have an interest in Boston transit.  (Joe F)

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 5, 2022 9:58 AM

Joe, you probably did not know that on both Classic Trains Question threads, he who answers is expected to ask the next question..  We were waiting for you to do just that.  And I sent you a private email note  "Please ask the next question."

Frankly,  I am still hoping that RC will answer the question that I sustituted for Joe.  Being an active Seashore member, RC probably knows more than I do abot the subject, and I am still hoping to learn from his reply.  And I think that applies to others, including Joe.    

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, April 6, 2022 9:25 AM

Sorry - didn't realize you were waiting on me.  I think the Beacon Street line was originally equipped with "trollers" which ran on two overhead wires and look sort of like a roller skate with double flanged wheels. The route downtown changed twice - first with the 1897 opening of the Subway,  later when the Subway was extended and the portal was moved out past the edge of the Public Gardens in 1914.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 7, 2022 1:33 AM

I think the troller experiment was on a different line, didn't last, and was before Beacon Street's, which was a Srague electrification. riefly with conduit. But I think West End did  experiment briefly with conduit at one point.

You are  correct about the line being relocated into the  Subway being done in stages, and on that basis, by all means ask the next question, as  well on checking on my statements.

Was not there a third stage, in that Kenmore Station was first on the surface and later moved underground?

Also, I believe the original route was from Allston, running down Harvard Street to Beacon Street, and the  extension out Beacon to Riverside came a year later.  You can check on that as well.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 7, 2022 6:47 AM

The troller wasn't used in Boston, though there were a number of installations.  Boston tried the Bentley-Knight conduit system for about an 18 month period in 1889 and 1890.  In addition to the same problems with electric motors that plagued other pre-carbon-brush installations the Bentley-Knight system was designed to be cheap, using a box conduit on top of the same ties the rails used.  Later, successful conduit systems in New York and Washington either re-used much deeper cable conduits or built new ones using a similar yoke system.  Bentley-Knight's sytem had trouble with slot closures and with "stuff" in the slot, which had to be cleaned manually.

The Illinois Traction System, later the Illinois Terminal, was one of the largest interurban systems in the country.  Although it never achieved its goal of a direct route to Chicago, it did own and run another line within 50 miles by which it was possible to get to Chicago on electric cars, but with two changes and the last nine miles on Chicago streets. 

Some of the cars from this line ended up on the ITS where they ran into the 1950s, and at least one is preserved at the Illinois Railway Museum. Name the interurban and its connection to Chicago - a line which had some very innovative lightweight cars. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2022 3:11 AM

Chicago Ottawa and Peoria Ry.  Connected to Chicago via the Joliet and Eastern Ry. at Joliet.  Never did  reach Peoria.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, April 8, 2022 6:48 AM

Like many midwestern interurbans the CO&P ran from nowhere to near somewhere, but not near enough to make its bond payments.  The lightweight equipment probably bough the line a couple of years at most.  Sandwiched between the Rock Island (that actually went to Peoria) and the Burlington it had only one real city on its line. 

The C&JE was part of Insull's empire but had the same issue that fellow Insull property C&IT had - both ended more than five miles from downtown Chicago.  While C&IT passengers could transfer to the South Side "L" at Halsted & 63rd, C&JE passengers transferred at Cicero and Archer on the southwest side, near today's Midway Airport.  The Archer line ran at an angle to Chicago's grid system streets.  At one time Archer streetcars were hauled as trailers by State Street cable grips before Chicago permitted overhead wires downtown.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 8, 2022 8:48 AM

Noit counting Easter Massachusett's several Boston-to-the-north routes, there were nine Boston Elevated routes that used part, mosr, or all of the current "Green Line" Subway.  Today. there arer four, three remaining from Boston Elevated days and one newer.

Which was the first route replaced by buses and why?.\  It was after WWII.

Which was the last?

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 14, 2022 10:21 AM

The first T routes I can find that went directly from subway to bus without an intermediate time as surface-only lines would be the 58 Cypress Street and 60 Chestnut Hill, both of which were replaced by the Chestnut Hill-Kenmore bus route when the Subway extension and Kenmore Station opened in 1932.  The last was the "A" Green Line replaced by the 57 Watertown via Kenmore bus.  The "A" line had a long stretch of street running and local opposition to safety isands in Newton Corner, and a history of poor schedule keeping.  The bus conversion was only supposed to be temporary due to a shortage of PCCs but the drawn-out process of replacing PCCs on other routes with Boeing-Vertol SLRVs never released enough.  Tracks remained in place to Watertown which was a primary shop for work equipment into the early 1990s.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 14, 2022 1:27 PM

Great! Look forwrd to your question,

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 20, 2022 4:54 AM

Still awaiting your qestionm  RC

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, April 20, 2022 7:39 AM

I'll post something later today.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 20, 2022 9:14 AM

Thanks

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 21, 2022 6:00 AM

Some passengers on Amtrak trains on this railroad rode in upgraded heavyweight cars for most of Amtrak's first year.  The heavyweights even strayed off line on occasion.

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