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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, August 26, 2022 3:41 AM

THe Northeast Regional Central Vermont, owned by CN, had its navy,  not the answer to your question, which operated until WWII, 1939 in Canada, so CV-CN coud compete on price NY-area - West Coast.  Boat-rail interchane at New London.

So---  I assume the othyer CN-owned Northeast regionasl, the Grand Trunk, had an ocean-going navy, that with the  CN, and CN boatws in thye Pacific, could compete for Asia-Europe qand/or West Coast - Europe freight traffic, until the opening of the Panama Canal, with an economical all-water route possible.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 26, 2022 6:14 AM

The Grand Trunk was unaffected by the Panama Canal Act.  CV's boats on Long Island Sound survived until nearly World War II. 

The railroad I'm looking for operated its line at least somewhat in competition with the major railroad system that had a controlling interest for a number of years after 1900.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, August 26, 2022 8:12 AM

Well. the New York Central had a controling interest in the Rutland, and the Rutland  did have a "navy" operating on Lake Erie (Oswego, the port (Sp?)?).  This did enable the Rutland to compete to some extent with the Central for some east-west traffic.

The 1915 vact had provisions beyond just use of the Panama  Canal, possibly even affecting the Rutland's use of the Welland canal.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 26, 2022 10:07 AM

Section 11 of the Act regulated railroad ownership of shipping lines, and turned the regulation over to the ICC.  It may have been that ICC rate regulation simply made the lake boat operation (from Ogdensburg NY) uneconomic.

The lake boats started as the Northern Transit line (Northerr Ry. of N.Y), became the Ogdensburg (sometimes Chicago & Ogdensburgh) after the NRofNY became the Ogdensburg and Lake Champlain, and finally the Rutland Transit Co.

Note that Ogdensburg seems to have gone this whole period without picking up the "h" on the end that came and went at Alburg(h) VT during the same period, and was finally adopted during WW I.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, August 28, 2022 7:20 AM

During WWII, there were open-platfoe cars in FIVE North American systems, railroads and  transit systems, that used open-platform cars in electric train operation.  Name all five.  No partial credit given in this case.

Hints:

All this equipment dated  from before WWI.

But one system's were relatively new, and all their's were steel.

On only one system, all were wood and all were trailers.

Despite thye age of the equipment, two systems' lines opened during WWII with these cars.   One of these lines survives today, through routed with modern equipment. Another system opened a new line during WWII, ut not with these cars.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, August 30, 2022 3:32 AM

RC, please put on your thinking cap and answer the  question.  I'm certain you are familiar with all five,

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, August 30, 2022 7:02 PM

daveklepper
I'm certain you are familiar with all five,

"Familiar" might be a bit strong but here are six I can think of:

New Haven (by WWII New Canaan and maybe Danbury shuttles) steel cars

IRT various lines including Third Avenue

BMT Myrtle Avenue and maybe others

CRT (Chicago) systemwide including Dempster Avenue (Skokie)

Shipyard Railway Oakland-Richmond CA built "new" from salvage parts.  ex-IRT El cars equipped with pantographs.  Dismantled after war, mostly the same route as BART Richmond line.

Salt Lake Garfield & Western used its open-air open platform cars behind Baldwin-Westinghouse motors to carry bathers to the Saltair resort until September 1942, then to move Air Force personnel  to an air base from 1943 to 1945, when the Saltair resort reopened.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 31, 2022 12:10 AM

You got six instead of five, because you counted the IRT and BMT as separate systems, whereas after June 1940, they were both part of NYCity Transit.

Chicago opened  the State St. Subway, but no wood cars used it.

Shipyard Railway was a WWII temporary operation.

NYCity Transit opened the Dyre Avenue line over part of the old New York Westchester and Boston RoW with open-platform cars released by bthe 1940 3nd Avenue Elevated abandonment.

A sixth or seventh system/line can be added, the Quebec - St. Joachim Canadian National Mont Morency Division electric  operation.  Jackson & Sharp "duck-bill" coaches as gtrailers.  Is not there one at Seashore?  And next question, please.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, August 31, 2022 8:18 AM

Seashore has QRL&P 454, a large and heavy steel car.  I'll post a new question later today.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 31, 2022 3:16 PM

But duesn't Seashore have a "duck-bill" wood comnine?  Perhaps people forgot where it camr from. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, August 31, 2022 5:33 PM

No duck bills.  Just a bunch of deck roof cars.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, August 31, 2022 5:38 PM

Alco-GE (and earlier Alco-GE-Ingersoll Rand) built tri-power engines for New York Central.  NYC used them in two different places, and sister two-power engines were used in two different railroad terminals.  In one of them similar engines were owned by another station owner.

Name both districts where tri-power engines were used, and the two large stations where two-power units were used.  For extra credit name the other railroad (besides NYC) that had an Alco-GE tri-power.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, August 31, 2022 9:32 PM

New York Central's use of tri-power locomotives in the New York City area, mostly in Manhattan itself, is widely known.  Two NYCentral terminals that saw them regularly did not include Grand Central Terminal, which they visited rarely.  St. Johns Freight Terminasl in lower Manhattan was one, anf the 30th Street Post OLffice Annex Terminal, also the terminal for the West Side two morning southbound snd two evening northbound passenger services, as long as they ran, was the other Manhattan terminal.

I don't know much about other tri-power users, but I suspect that the Central probably used them in the Detroit area during the era of the Detroit - Winsor electrification.  Also, Niagra Junction and South Shore had dual-power locomotives, and the North Shore had battery-trolley-pole electrics.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, September 1, 2022 7:24 AM

The question was about NYC use of Alco-GE diesel-battery(-electrics) . Tri-powers were used in Detroit.  At the other two terminals, NYC used Alco-GE bi-power units at one (the other used electrics and later diesels)  At the other NYC and another owner both used bi-powers.  The non-NYC tri-power was only used for freight service.

I'm not aware of any CSS&SB tri-powers.  North Shore had a pair of battery-electrics (755 and 756) built by GE for freight service.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, September 1, 2022 9:52 AM

The Manhattan operatuion, West Side Line, to St. Johns Terminal at thec 430th Street yard  and station, withv3rd rail lacking south of 609th St., used what were called "oilo-electrics,' and T thought this was what you were referring to.  I believe some could also move, at leat for short distances, by battery power.  But oil-electric ismn't diesel-elecgtrivc, and probably those loconotives had spark-plug ignition and not the diesel's compression-ignition.

I'm not aware of New  York Central electrifications that involve freifght bother than the New York area and  Detroit.  So, if you rule out the West Side, the only other possibities are isolated waterfront operations, freight terminals  reached b car-float.  One was apparently located nwar the Liberty Street DL&W Ferry terminal.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, September 1, 2022 10:09 AM

NYC used dual-powers in Chicago at La Salle Street Station.  Rock Island also had a dual-power at La Salle Street.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, September 1, 2022 10:12 AM

Leaves only one more place NYC used dual-powers.  There was a photo of them at that station a while back in the Photo of the Day feature. Like LaSalle, these were used to switch passenger equipment.

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, September 1, 2022 7:16 PM

Now that I have gone back to the books here's some more on tri-power and dual power locomotives:

NYC had 46 tri-powers.  One was built by Alco-GE-IR, all of the others by GE-IR. Except for the Alco carbody, the original was followed exactly.  NYC also had two classes of electrics with the same motors and trucks.

NYC had six dual-powers.  Two of them, lettered for NYC, worked with one owned by another railroad at one passenger terminal.  The other four, lettered for a member of the NYC System, worked at the other passenger station, briefly with Baldwin-Westinghouse electrics owned by another railroad, later with diesels including some GE-IR boxcabs without batteries.  The other railroad did buy a gas-electric-electric from St. Louis Car, but returned it as unsatisfactory.

The other railrod with tri-powers had two of them.  They were the only ones not equipped for third rail.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 2, 2022 4:14 PM

Wasn't the other railroad using tri-powers the Lackawanna?

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, September 3, 2022 7:30 AM

The Lackawanna's two tri-powers were used in freight service, running off DL&W's 3000 VDC overhead.  Each was equipped with a single pantograph.

Still looking for the dual-powers.  All of them (NYC, MC and the other railroad's unit) worked in the same city.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, September 4, 2022 10:53 AM

Was Central dual-power at La Sall battery-and-diesel  Or  wasthere actally some  third rail or catenary?

Had never learned  about this,   Thanks!

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, September 4, 2022 3:16 PM

LaSalle did not have any third rail.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, September 5, 2022 2:10 AM

Enough energy storage for equipment transfer station - yard, or just pulling a cut iout of a siding?

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, September 5, 2022 3:14 PM

At both locations the dual-powers were primarily used to move postal and express equipment.  They were comparable in tractive effort to the 0-6-0 switchers assigned to the same stations.  The diesel engine was adequate to keep the batteries charged with the way the engines were used.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 6, 2022 6:10 AM

The other city must be Buffalo, with  Toronto Hamilton & Buffalo the third railroad.   (Michigan Central included Canada Southern.)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, September 6, 2022 6:29 AM

Both locations where dual-powers were used were in the same city.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, September 6, 2022 7:53 AM

I'm confused, obviously.  The same city must then e Chicago, since La Sall Street Station has been established as one location.  Michigan Central and the Big Four ran into the Illinois Central's Central Station, so that is the other locationj. andcthe Big Four (Chicago Cleveland Cincinnati & St. Louis?) the third railroad.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, September 6, 2022 8:39 AM

At one of the two stations, the other railroad used electric and later diesel switchers to replace steam for switching.  The electric operation lasted only a few years in the intercity station itself but longer elsewhere.  NYC trains on the Big Four were handled by the other railroad as if they were their own, but with NYCS equipment.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 7, 2022 1:31 AM

So the other  railroad must be the IC itself, which did haveelectric freight switchws, and, of course, its electric suburban service is  still with us.

Or was there any railroad outside the IC itself and componants of the New  York Central System that used the IC's Central Station.  UI seem to recall that there vwas one other.  The B&O for a time while Grand Central was remodeled.  But the IC seems the obvious answer.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, September 7, 2022 1:38 AM

A further thought, the B&O at both Mt. Royal and Camden Stations in Baltimore, with the electrification elsewhere being its Staten Island subsidiary.

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