In the Surface Lines era (1913-1947) only Chicago Railways and Chicago City Railways were assigned new cars (C&SC got one as a replacement). CRys lines were on the North and West sides, CCRY the South side, C&SC the far South and Southeast sides. Southern Street Railway only had one line - Roosevelt Road. That line was unique in that the last mile on the west end was paired track with Chicago & West Towns Ry., since the city limit with Cicero was Roosevelt Rd.
After all of these New York-oriented questions, it's time for a change. Provide the names of the four underlying traction companies that operated as Chicago Surface Lines.
still waiting
WAiting for CSS's question
That's what I was looking for. There were a couple of Parlors as well. GM&O's heavyweights were just as good as or better than some of the lightweight cars that replaced them in service. GM&O and later ICG also used heavyweight coaches on the Joliet locals until RTA supplied newer equipment in 1978.
Thanks for the hints. The cars in question would be the GM&O dining cars in Chicago-St. Louis service and the brief Milwaukee-St. Louis service.
P70s are considered semi-lightweights, but they didn't stray off PC much if at all. The onew I'm looking for looked like they belonged with lightweights by roof profile but rode on six-wheel trucks. The farthest they got from home rails was less than 100 miles. (also, if it's not giving it away, they were a lot closer to you not counting the Valpo dummies)!
I'm going to say that the road is question is Penn Central, based on re-habbed P70 coaches in service on the Northeast Corridor.
Some passengers on Amtrak trains on this railroad rode in upgraded heavyweight cars for most of Amtrak's first year. The heavyweights even strayed off line on occasion.
Thanks
I'll post something later today.
Still awaiting your qestionm RC
Great! Look forwrd to your question,
The first T routes I can find that went directly from subway to bus without an intermediate time as surface-only lines would be the 58 Cypress Street and 60 Chestnut Hill, both of which were replaced by the Chestnut Hill-Kenmore bus route when the Subway extension and Kenmore Station opened in 1932. The last was the "A" Green Line replaced by the 57 Watertown via Kenmore bus. The "A" line had a long stretch of street running and local opposition to safety isands in Newton Corner, and a history of poor schedule keeping. The bus conversion was only supposed to be temporary due to a shortage of PCCs but the drawn-out process of replacing PCCs on other routes with Boeing-Vertol SLRVs never released enough. Tracks remained in place to Watertown which was a primary shop for work equipment into the early 1990s.
Noit counting Easter Massachusett's several Boston-to-the-north routes, there were nine Boston Elevated routes that used part, mosr, or all of the current "Green Line" Subway. Today. there arer four, three remaining from Boston Elevated days and one newer.
Which was the first route replaced by buses and why?.\ It was after WWII.
Which was the last?
Like many midwestern interurbans the CO&P ran from nowhere to near somewhere, but not near enough to make its bond payments. The lightweight equipment probably bough the line a couple of years at most. Sandwiched between the Rock Island (that actually went to Peoria) and the Burlington it had only one real city on its line.
The C&JE was part of Insull's empire but had the same issue that fellow Insull property C&IT had - both ended more than five miles from downtown Chicago. While C&IT passengers could transfer to the South Side "L" at Halsted & 63rd, C&JE passengers transferred at Cicero and Archer on the southwest side, near today's Midway Airport. The Archer line ran at an angle to Chicago's grid system streets. At one time Archer streetcars were hauled as trailers by State Street cable grips before Chicago permitted overhead wires downtown.
Chicago Ottawa and Peoria Ry. Connected to Chicago via the Joliet and Eastern Ry. at Joliet. Never did reach Peoria.
The troller wasn't used in Boston, though there were a number of installations. Boston tried the Bentley-Knight conduit system for about an 18 month period in 1889 and 1890. In addition to the same problems with electric motors that plagued other pre-carbon-brush installations the Bentley-Knight system was designed to be cheap, using a box conduit on top of the same ties the rails used. Later, successful conduit systems in New York and Washington either re-used much deeper cable conduits or built new ones using a similar yoke system. Bentley-Knight's sytem had trouble with slot closures and with "stuff" in the slot, which had to be cleaned manually.
The Illinois Traction System, later the Illinois Terminal, was one of the largest interurban systems in the country. Although it never achieved its goal of a direct route to Chicago, it did own and run another line within 50 miles by which it was possible to get to Chicago on electric cars, but with two changes and the last nine miles on Chicago streets.
Some of the cars from this line ended up on the ITS where they ran into the 1950s, and at least one is preserved at the Illinois Railway Museum. Name the interurban and its connection to Chicago - a line which had some very innovative lightweight cars.
I think the troller experiment was on a different line, didn't last, and was before Beacon Street's, which was a Srague electrification. riefly with conduit. But I think West End did experiment briefly with conduit at one point.
You are correct about the line being relocated into the Subway being done in stages, and on that basis, by all means ask the next question, as well on checking on my statements.
Was not there a third stage, in that Kenmore Station was first on the surface and later moved underground?
Also, I believe the original route was from Allston, running down Harvard Street to Beacon Street, and the extension out Beacon to Riverside came a year later. You can check on that as well.
Sorry - didn't realize you were waiting on me. I think the Beacon Street line was originally equipped with "trollers" which ran on two overhead wires and look sort of like a roller skate with double flanged wheels. The route downtown changed twice - first with the 1897 opening of the Subway, later when the Subway was extended and the portal was moved out past the edge of the Public Gardens in 1914.
Joe, you probably did not know that on both Classic Trains Question threads, he who answers is expected to ask the next question.. We were waiting for you to do just that. And I sent you a private email note "Please ask the next question."
Frankly, I am still hoping that RC will answer the question that I sustituted for Joe. Being an active Seashore member, RC probably knows more than I do abot the subject, and I am still hoping to learn from his reply. And I think that applies to others, including Joe.
Dave --
I have no idea WHAT you mean when you wrote that I "will not ask the next question". !!! I have no idea what you want me to ask? Do you ?? I don't think anyone else here does either ! Also, I am basically not a historian on Boston transit - tho I do have an interest in Boston transit. (Joe F)
Joe Frank apparently will not ask the next question, so here goes:
Boston's Beacon Street, between St. Mary's Street and Harvard Street at Coolidge Corner, has the oldest operating electric railway tracks in North America, a horse-car line electrified in 1889. It should have National Landmark status, in my opinion.
Today's route differs in two major ways fron the originsal route. Today's route does use a facility with Landmark status. What are the differences between the oiriginal route and today's?
Optional: What was the experimentation with a different form of current collection on the original route?
Can you ask the next question?
RC: Note that when referring to the BMT's Manhattan Broadway Subway, I always referred to it as the Manhattan Broadway subway, hoping you would catch on that indeed the BRT-BMT had another Broadway Line, their Brooklyn Broadway Elevated. And today, The J and its rush-hour only Z express are the only NYCTA routes that are primarily elevated routes, other than the M on Myrtle Avenue only during those periods when it is a shuttle from Metropolitan Avenue only to Broadway and Myrtle and does not contintue via the Broadway Elevated. Williamsburg Bridge and much subway mileage to Forest Hills, Queens.
The route's structure on East Fulton Street, east of Eastern Parkway - Broadway Junction is the oldest actual structure on the entire system, strengthened, but not replaced.
Your historical comments are all correct, Dave. The LIRR "Steam" Forney Loco hauled trains of their center door "EL style and size" gate cars (later those cars electrically wired and converted to run between electric LIRR MP-41 MU cars) - originally via the 5th Ave EL (Atlantic Av -Flatbush Av connection to LIRR) and via Hudson Street connection to Myrtle EL's to Sands Street, used the UPPER LEVEL Loop tracks at Sands Street --- and retuned to the LIRR at Atlantic & Flatbush Ave BRT 5th Ave EL connection that way. That was prior to the opening of the Willy B Bridge of 1903 and prior to the actual start of BRT EL Gate Car (and LIRR MP-41 MU Cars) trains across the Bridge in 1908 via the BRT broadway EL Line. The LIRR MP-41 steel MU "Gibbs" cars (they were the same appearance as the IRT-1904 built Gibbs cars) entered Manhattan ONLY via the Williamsburg Bridge via the BRT Broadway EL via the Chestnut Street ramp connection from that EL to the LIRR (then a 4 track surface line) main along Atlantic Avenue.
Of course you know this also Dave ! ONLY the steam hauled LIRR center-door Gate Cars with Forney Locos used the BRT 5th Ave EL to Sands Street Station - operating & connecting via the Hudson-Myrtle EL connection. LIRR MP-41 cars never ran that service, as those two EL structures (BRT 5th Ave. EL & BRT Myrtle EL) were not strong enough for steel cars loaded with passengers.
The LIRR MP-41 "Gibbs Cars" as built, were designed to IRT dimensions ( 51 feet long, and just under 9 feet wide. These dimensions were used because the LIRR MP-41 Gibbs cars were planned to operate on IRT Subway lines via Atlantic-Av-Flatbush Terminal track connections (but NEVER DID) as well as on the BRT Broadway EL which - at that time as did ALL BRT lines) run with trains of BRT wooden gate cars of 46 to 48 feet length and just under 9 feet wide.
When joint LIRR-BRT EL operation ended the LIRR had already just prior dcdided to use their parent-company Pennsyylvania Railroad's 10' wide new MP-54 electric MU car bodies as their new MU car fleets - which became the LIRR MU Car standard until the 1960's. Thus the MP-41 LIRR Gibbs cars had to have new steel trap doors on their vestibule platforms stepwells that protruded 6 inches out beyond the 9' wide car body sides at floor-line so as to meet the high level station platforms on the LIRR that were ALL clearance-fitted for all the various TEN FOOT WIDE freight cars, LIRR MP-54 MU Cars, and heavyweight LIRR locomotive hauled passengers cars !
It is the one single NYCTA route that still is mostly, probably about 75% or 80% on structure above grond level.
When you transfer at the elevated station to a trsin in the subway below, that train's route includes city-built subway (both pre- and post-WWII, some replacing BMT elevated service), other BMT-originally-used city-built elevated structure, and lots of LIRR RoW and replacments for LIRR strcture and a bit of re-used LIRR structure. It does not use the short stretch of LIRR Atlantic Avenue tracks that the joint service did (obviously still in use by orther LIRR services).
You got one station name right. There is a BMT, former BRT. station by that name, at it was for the 1913-1917 BRT elevated-train cars and the LIRR MP-41s. But an Atlantic Avenue Station as either a connection point for through service or where you have change trains today to dupoklicate the trip as closely as possible, and Bowling Green have zero to do with answering the question. And since Bowling Green is an IRT Station, you may be thinking of the IRT (7th Avenue) IRT Station. The correct Chambers Street Station was a BRT (became the BMT after Malbone Street victim compensations and reorganization() station for BRT & LIRR joint service. IRT Chambers and the Atlantic Avenue Flatbush Terminal and the IRT in general were simply not involved in any way.
Today, the transfer points: All the time including rush hours, between an elevated and a subway station (that did not exist until after WWII) requiring use of stairs or the elevator. 2nd non rush-hour transfer point, ground-level station, same platform, same track, just wait for the next train, probaly signed "S" foir shuttle outbound.
The BRT portion of the route is in use today, Most of it is elevated, including the city's oldest elevated structuure. Berfore 1916 most New Yorkers did not consider these three iManhattan (in-use today) subway stations as subway stations, but as underground elevated-train stations. Steel cars came to just one of the stations in 1916 with the opening of the BRT's (to be the BMT's) first subway line.
3 September 1917 saw the end of the BRT - LIRR joint service, which was not revived for the 1918 summer season. The very next day the first portion of the BMT's Broadway (Manhattan) subway opened, with steel cars, of course, bringing steel cars to a second of three Manhattan stations served by the joint summer service, but at a different platform on a different level, with elevated-train cars continuing through the station as before. The first potion of the Broadway (Manhattan) BMT Subway was from Manhattan Bridge to 14th Street, Union Square. Elevated-train cars continued to serve the three Manhattan stations that had been served by the joint service, including the BMT Chambers Street Station, until 22 August 1927, when enough "D-Types' arrived for steel standards released from Brighton and Sea Beach service to replace the elevated-train cars. (Some steel cars did appear on the line beginning in 1918.)
As late as 1995, neighborhood people still referred to the BMT line used by summer joint service as "the elevated." Probably still do!
Whitehall station saw first use as a non-passenger change-end station and Rector Street for passengers on 5 January 1918, as the new south end of the BRT-BMT Broadway (Manhattan) Subway, and the north end was now Times Square. The south end did not reach Brooklyn via the Montague Street Tunnel until 1 Augost 1920.
's'
Bowling Green and Chambers St.
The later "joint service" involved transfers at Atlantic Avenue.
Here are MP-41s in-between runs from their outer terminal adjacent to this yard and the Flatbush Avenue Terminal. This was also the terminal for the joint service that allowed them to reach Manhattan. This yard has not changed, bit sees subway cars, not LIRR cars. The terminal now has high platforms.
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