Still early 30's , Mark? I keep wanting to say the City of Miami / Dixie Flagler / South Wind to FEC #3 at JAX but that's wrong due to time frame. I think I'm close in the neighborhood though, just not the right era.
Buck, you're getting very close but FEC No. 3 was not one of the trains.
Remember we're looking for four different trains, three of which were all Pullman while the coaches carried in the fourth one did not run through to the common end point terminal as did the sleepers.
Mark
Although I knew the IC's Seminol as a secondary train, I believe at one time it was the flagship of the IC's M<idwest - Florida service, so I would hazard a guess it is the train you are refering to. I think it was all-Pullman at one time. South of Jacksonville, it would probably use the best FEC traini to Miami to handle its sleepers, and that would certainly be the Florida Special. It would be better to use one SAL train to both Tampa and St. Pete than two ACL trains, so the St. Pete section of the Orange Blossom Speical makes sense. But to get to Manatee and Sarasato, a through Pullamn probably was carried in a coach and sleeper train from Tampa.
There were all sorts of bizarro world connections down here in Florida. Most think, natually, that the OBS came to JAX when, in fact, in the glory days of the OBS, you had to take a bus from JAX to Baldwin, FL to catch the train as it did not come into Jax terminal but took what is known as the Yulee Cutoff. The other weird connection was the pickup and dropoff (not the Russian limo company) of sleepers from trains at this fire plug called Hampton, FL.
Mark, I'm besides myself trying to figure this out.
For all I know a Florida sleeper off the Seminal might have been handled to and from St. Louis from and to Cairo by a gas-electric coach-baggage-mail car.
Going southbound, the train that ran on the common leg carried all but two of its Pullmans to one terminal city. The two exceptions were dropped off 67 miles short of that city.
Keep after it Buck. You got the route correct in one of your earlier replies but mis-identified the train.
Yes Buck, one was an all Pullman FEC train that ran between Jacksonville and Miami. It carried 13 sleepers that ran north of Jax in three other trains. Six of the Pullmans were Chicago-Miami cars, two were St. Louis-Miami cars and one each were Detroit, Cleveland and Cincinnati-Miami cars. The two dropoffs were Chicago-West Palm Beach cars. All that's needed to wrap up this question are the names of the trains.
I expect everyone's grown pretty tired of this question by now so here are the answers.
The FEC train was No's 39 & 40 , the Biscayne, which ran between Jacksonville and Miami. It carried six Chicago-Miami sleepers; three of these ran north of Jax in the all Pullman Dixie Ltd., two in the all Pullman Floridan and one in the coach and Pullman Flamingo. The same two trains carried both a St. Louis-Mia and a Chi-W. Palm Beach car. The Flamingo carried a Detroit-Mia, a Cleveland-Mia and a Cincinnati-Mia car. The St.L section of the Dixie Ltd. carried coaches but only between between StL and Evansville. Between Evansville and Jax the DL ran as an all Pullman train.
Since Buck Dean was the only one to get any part of this question he gets to field the next one.
No problem, but I would point out that I did give a technically correct answer to the first question as stated: eastbound only, true, but still, the Super to the Broadway, Century, and Capitol. So in compensation, please answer something that puzzles me. The three "streamliner" carriers for the Florida trade leaving Chicago were the C&EI, PRR, and IC. But I also recall the Southern's Ponce de Leon and Royal Palm, Cincinnati-Jacksonville, with through cars Chicago - Miami, possibly St.Pete as well on the south and DEtroit and Cleveland on the north. Chicago cars were handled by the NYCentral. How did the overall running timje compare with the three majors, both in the heavyweight era and post WWII? Is my memory correct on this?
And am I correct that the IC's Seminol was once all-Pullman?
Dave, while there were minor differences in their schedules, the City of Miami, Southwind and Dixie Flagler all made their Chicago-Miami runs in about 30-1/2 hours. The Royal Palm ran Chicago-Miami in just under 40 hrs. The pre-WW2 Florida Sunbeam had a 34 hr - 45 min schedule making it the Southern's fastest Chicago-Miami train.
I can' speak to all times, but as far as I know the Seminole was never all Pullman.
So basically, the Southern route was competitive in the heavyweight era, but pretty much dropped out of the competition when the streamliners were introduced. Is my understanding correct that there were never any through coaches via Southern in this market, just Pullmans.
Actually, Dave, the Southern never was much of a player in the Chicago - Florida market. Its Florida trains mainly served Detroit, Grand Rapids, Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo, Cincinnati and intermediate points. Until the late 40"s or early 50"s SR trains carried a single Chi-Mia sleeper which ran northbound in the Ponce de Leone and southbound in the Royal Palm. Circa 1930, both the Royal Palm DeLuxe and the Suwanee River Special carried a Chi-Mia sleeper. Both these were winter season only trains.
I looked back as far as 1930 and could find no SR through coach service to any city in Florida except Jacksonville.
Travling to Charlottesville at age 10 on the Southener and returning to NY on a C&O local and a regular Washington - NY PRR train was my first experience traveling on railroads that did not serve NYCity directly or via ferry boats, and I remember being intregued by the names of the two Southern Cincinnati - Jacksonville trains as I studied the timetable. But later I never rode those trains. Did ride the City of Miami, probably twice, and the Southwind once. The latter in PC days, with slow orders on the PC track from Chicago to Lousiville and the equipment not in the best shape. The IC did keep things up, howeverm on the City of Miami.
If I am truely up, then here's a real easy one so that the next quiz master can step up.
Of all the innovations in passenger railroading of the 1950's, which is the only one that worked; albeit too late to do any good?
slumbercoach/sleepercoach. magnetic credit card readers and cards and aceptance for meals as well as tickets. Low center-of-gravity and tilting equipment, like the the PRR Keystone (low center-of-gravity).
I would be tempted to add double-deck long-distance cars, the Sante Fe highlevel cars, except they were of great use, since the Superliners were based on their design.
TV in lounge cars.
I'm going with the RDC.
Ok, gang, the KEY word here is ONE. So, to be fair, somebody pick the correct ONE and tell me what it is. No "skeet choke" here hoping to hit something.
Dome cars?
OK. But you are asking us to read your mind, since obviuosly there are several correct answers.
RDCs cannot be right, since some are moving people today.Domes still bring riders to the Canadian.
From those I posted, I'll pick TV in lounge cars.
Sheesh,Dave. If that were true then most all your questions would require only the latest in smart-crystal ball technology. ONE thing please. Dome cars are 1940's but that would be the answer for that decade. 1950's. Somebody already mentioned it.
rcdrye I'm going with the RDC.
I agree if in fact the RDC is an eligible contender. Budd introduced the RDC in 1949 but none went into revenue service until 1950 when the NYC bought them for its B&A line. Does this make the RDC an innovation of the '40's or '50's?
If the RDC is ruled ineligible then I'll opt for the slumbercoach.
KCSfan I can' speak to all times, but as far as I know the Seminole was never all Pullman.
For most of its life, the Seminole operated as a coach-Pullman train except during several mid-1920's winter seasons when regularly scheduled separate Pullman and coach sections were operated, the latter sometimes called Seminole Express.
KCSfan I looked back as far as 1930 and could find no SR through coach service to any city in Florida except Jacksonville.
SR sometimes handled south-of-Jacksonville coaches, primarily in winter season trains. Examples are, the Suwanee River Special to St. Petersburg (winter season and year-round versions), the Florida Sunbeam to Miami and St. Petersburg, and the New Royal Palm to Miami.
SHAMELESS PLUG -> For those who are interested, the second volume of "From the Midwest to Florida By Rail, 1875-1979", produced by PRRT&HS, which is in production and should be available in May 2015, will have a large section devoted to SR Midwest-Florida operations.
Somewhere in the midst of SOUTHERN "coach-ology", I declare Mark the winner with
SLUMBERCOACH.
All yours bud.
SHAMELESS PLUG #2 - also FRISCO, C&EI. The ACL & SAL Historical Society will be carrying the book in their company store.
END OF SHAMELESS PLUG #2
Except for a one letter difference the names of two trains were spelled the same but pronounced differently. The two served the same market but not at the same time. Name the trains and their routes.
You happened to catch me after I just put down a book on Santa Fe passenger trains. The ANGEL, SFO-LA and the ANGELO, Ft. Worth- San Angelo.
the Northbound version of the ANGEL was the SAINT.
Do I get a cookie?
No you don't because the two trains do not serve the same market.
Still searching.
Sorry, no cookies for you for the reason Dave has pointed out.
Here's today's clue. While the two trains I'm looking for served the same end point cities they took different routes in doing so.
Well, you've got me. I've been burning up the OG's and the internet and cannot come up with anything.
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