Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[rcdrye]

If it's not in our time frame it sure was once.

Market Street Railway 578, a single-truck "California Car" with a resemblance to a cable car of the same era, was built in 1896 by Hammond, a major west coast builder of horse and cable cars.  Acquired by SF Muni 1n 1944 along with the rest of the Market St Ry. (a successor to the original) it was used in work service as a sand car from about 1908 to 1956, when it was restored by Muni for a parade commemorationg the 1906 earthquake.  It sat at the Western Railway Museum in Rio Vista from 1957 to 1984 when it was brought back to San Francisco, and is used occasionally in F-Line special service.

All this from http://www.streetcar.org/streetcars/578-578s-msry-dinky/ and a couple of other sources.

[narig01]

I was not sure how long it would take to get an answer. 578 is a fun little car to operate. I'd run it any number of times at Rio Vista. One other footnote Richard Nixon rode on 578 in 1956 when he ran for reelection as VP. 578 is a very simple car. An early version GE K controller. Hand brake(lever like a cable car). During its time at Rio Vista we put some old style low wattage carbon filament bulbs in it. It was a treat to look at nite. All things considered it is a surprise to have lasted as long as it has. First a lot of Market St Ry cars were wrecked or burned during the 1906 earthquake and fire. Then the lasted as a sandcar for 30 some odd years on Market St and Muni. Then in 1956 it was rebuilt back to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the 1906 earthquake and fire. According to lore Charley Smallwood tucked it away with a few other gems in the back corners of one of Muni's shops. When the car returned to San Francisco during the rebuild of the cable car system 578 was run on Market St. Then it was run under the Embarcadero Fwy(now gone thanks to the wrecking ball of the 1989 earthquake) with a generator. Now it gets run from time to time along the Embarcadero from downtown up to Fisherman's Wharf. RCDye your question. Thx IGN

[rcdrye]

All trains headed for this western city, regardless of railroad or origin, were headed in the same timetable direction.

[Deggesty]

That sounds like San Francisco--even though most trains headed for the city never reached it (unless you count the service that ran from San Jose to the City).

[narig01]

This is a description of both San Francisco and Oakland, Ca Rgds IGN

[rcdrye]

Johnny has it correct.  Even though Oakland was the actual destination of many trains, the timetable direction was based on the idea that the Ferry Building in San Francisco was the actual train destination.

This applied to WP, AT&SF and SN trains as well.  NWP had used north- and southbound at one time, but by the turn of the century it, too had adopted San Francisco as the "West Pole".

[narig01]

I will withdraw both San Francisco and Oakland from the list on 2nd thought and a little research. 1 Oakland. The Bay Bridge went west by timetable from Oakland to San Francisco. On it traveled the trains of the Key System, the SP's Interurban Electric Ry, and the Sacramento Northern. 2. San Francisco. The Ocean Shore by timetable one went Westbound to Pacifica and Half Moon Bay. Rgds IGN PS I'm looking to see where the end of the line was. Also I would think some of the either GN or NP branch lines in Oregon or Washington.

[daveklepper]

oldest streetcars built for electric operation, Lynchburg, VA, then Wildwood, NJ, single-truck open No 34 at Branford (Shore Line Trolley Musuem) and the oldest, a Providence, RI, United Railways single-truck closed car there, 1889, I believe.

[Deggesty]

Eighty plus years ago, Pullman had four lines of sleepers between St. Louis and Jacksonville. Two lines ran over two roads; one line ran over three roads; the fourth line ran over four roads. All were two-night-out lines. What roads were used, and what were the connecting points?

[FlyingCrow]

Since this is where I live, I'll take a crack at (some) of it.

STL-JAX

via IC, CofGA and ACL    Birmingham and Montgomery

via IC, CofGA, AB&C, and ACL   Birmingham, Albany, Waycross

via SOU.  GS&F     Atlanta

via L&N, ACL     Montgomery

I dunno..I'm getting lost..

 

 

[Deggesty]

FlyingCrow

Since this is where I live, I'll take a crack at (some) of it.

STL-JAX

via IC, CofGA and ACL    Birmingham and Montgomery Montgomery requires backtracking.

via IC, CofGA, AB&C, and ACL   Birmingham, Albany, Waycross AB&C was not it it--nor did it go to Albany; also, IC was in only one.

via SOU.  GS&F     Atlanta You are taking a long way; GS&F was not in it.

via L&N, ACL     Montgomery Bingo! To me, this was the really obscure one.

I dunno..I'm getting lost..

 

 

 

[rcdrye]

I'll take a stab at this... Here they are in two, three, four order.

L&N via Evansville to Montgomery ACL Jacksonville

B&O Cincinnati SR Jacksonville

IC Birmingham CofG Albany GA ACL Jacksonville

L&N via Evansville to Nashville NC&StL Atlanta AB&C Waycross ACL Jacksonville

I'm least sure about the B&O/SR routing.. I can also come up with an L&N/SAL routing via Flamaton AL but that seems really unlikely.

[KCSfan]

St Louis -Jacksonville Express: L&N StL-Montgomery, ACL Montgomery-Jax

Memphian: Frisco StL-Birmingham, SR B'ham to Jax

Dixie Ltd & Dixie Flyer: L&N StL-Nashville, NC&StL N'ville- Atlanta, CofG Atl-Albany, ACL Albany-Jax

Seminole & Floridan: IC StL-Birmingham, CofG B'ham- Albany, ACL Albany-Jax

Mark

 

[Deggesty]

rcdrye

I'll take a stab at this... Here they are in two, three, four order.

L&N via Evansville to Montgomery ACL Jacksonville Yup, still right on.

B&O Cincinnati SR Jacksonville No, B&O was not in it--and a bit long. 

IC Birmingham CofG Albany GA ACL Jacksonville Aha, another good one.

L&N via Evansville to Nashville NC&StL Atlanta AB&C Waycross ACL Jacksonville No, AB&C did not figure at all.

I'm least sure about the B&O/SR routing.. I can also come up with an L&N/SAL routing via Flamaton AL but that seems really unlikely. Absolutely out of it.

 

[Deggesty]

KCSfan

St Louis -Jacksonville Express: L&N StL-Montgomery, ACL Montgomery-Jax

Memphian: Frisco StL-Birmingham, SR B'ham to Jax

Dixie Ltd & Dixie Flyer: L&N StL-Nashville, NC&StL N'ville- Atlanta, CofG Atl-Albany, ACL Albany-Jax

Seminole & Floridan: IC StL-Birmingham, CofG B'ham- Albany, ACL Albany-Jax

Mark

 

 

Hey--you slipped in between my reading Buck's second reply and my answering him--and you got the roads and junctions right! But, it was the KC-Fla Special east of Memphis, and the Floridan and Dixie Limited had St. Louis-Miami sleepers but no St. Louis Jacksonville sleepers. Be glad I did not ask for the names of the trains!

I don't think that the AB&C entered the Mid-west and Florida traffic until the Dixie Flagler was inaugurated.

[FlyingCrow]

According to Mr. Charles Lawrence Goolsby , the author of the book on the AB&C (and he shamed me for even asking him), the AB&C did take part in through Pullman lines to the midwest.    He very gruffly said "Read MY BOOK".   Sheesh

Good job Mark!  

Oh, yeah, he really thought I'd lost it when I said AB&C out of Albany, GA.   Duh.  Now that, I know 

 

 

[KCSfan]

Deggesty

But, it was the KC-Fla Special east of Memphis, and the Floridan and Dixie Limited had St. Louis-Miami sleepers but no St. Louis Jacksonville sleepers.  

Johnny, the StL-Jax sleeper was carried in the Memphian between StL and Memphis and in the KC-Fla Spcl (which I failed to mention) from Memphis on to Jax. As you know the KC-Fla Spcl did not serve StL. I included the Dixie Ltd and Floridan since one could travel to Jax in the sleepers which were not dropped off there but continued on to Miami.

Mark

[Deggesty]

Mark, I perhaps should have approved  your naming the Memphian as far as it went; I knew how it was carried south and east of there.

[ZephyrOverland]

Johnny - 

I would like to chime in with some additonal St. Louis-Jacksonville sleeping car routes that existed before WW1:

- Mobile & Ohio - St. Louis-Montgomery; Montgomery-Jacksonville via Plant System/ACL.  This route existed for a brief time around the turn of the 20th Century.

- SR - St. Louis-Louisville-Lexington-Asheville-Columbia-Jacksonville; this was a temporary reroute of the Cincinnati-Asheville-Jacksonville sleeper during the run of the St. Louis Worlds Fair in 1904.

- St. Louis-Holly Springs, Ms. via IC; Frisco, Holly Springs-Birmingham; SR Birmingham-Everett; FC&P Everett-Jacksonville.  This was the routing St. Louis sleepers used before Frisco had its own St. Louis-Memphis line.

- St. Louis-Martin, Tn, via IC; Martin-Nashville via NCStL; beyond Nashville via Dixie Route.  The IC and NCStL operated a St. Louis-Nashville Dixie Flyer that connected with the Chicago-Jacksonville Dixie Flyer at Nashville.  After WW1 this routing was discontinued and St. Louis Dixie Route cars began operating via L&N to Evansville. 

This information (and more) is included in the new two volume set "Midwest to Florida by Rail 1875-1979" published by the PRRT&HS, a publication which I was proudly involved with.

Myron

 

 

[Deggesty]

Thanks, ZO. It is well that I specified a time frame in my question, else it would have been really wide open to these routings, which existed especially before there were even the beginnings of half-way decent highways. Night Trains, by Peter Maiken, has some interesting routings, but it does not go back as far as your reference.

In 1892, the Dixie Flyer was a Nashville-Jacksonville train, which ran over the NC&SL, CG, GS&F, and FC&P. This intrigued me, since the FC&P became part of the SAL, the arch-rival of the ACL.

[ZephyrOverland]

Deggesty

Thanks, ZO. It is well that I specified a time frame in my question, else it would have been really wide open to these routings, which existed especially before there were even the beginnings of half-way decent highways. Night Trains, by Peter Maiken, has some interesting routings, but it does not go back as far as your reference.

In 1892, the Dixie Flyer was a Nashville-Jacksonville train, which ran over the NC&SL, CG, GS&F, and FC&P. This intrigued me, since the FC&P became part of the SAL, the arch-rival of the ACL.

 

Johnny,

Actually, the 1892 Dixie Flyer was officially a NC&StL Nashville-Atlanta train which featured Nashville-Jacksonville sleepers.  The problem in looking into early Dixie Route operations is that, at the time, Dixie Flyer was promoted as a through Florida train service, but in reality only a few through sleepers were handled on the Flyer to Atlanta and were transferred to other regularly scheduled connecting trains running south of there to Jacksonville.  The Dixie Flyer became so well marketed that connecting roads wanted to bask in some that that marketing power off of the main Dixie Flyer.  Eventually, the connecting segments of through Dixie Flyer sleepers eventually morphed into a through Chicago-Jacksonville train route in 1908. 

As for the south of Atlanta connecting railroads, up to WW1 through sleepers and trains operated via routes that were always changing due to the fact that there were a number of railroads (far greater in number than those who were involved in northeastern-Florida operations) that could be used in getting through cars and trains from the midwest to Florida.  Dozens of routes were utilized, but eventually railroad alliances started forming (as well as mergers of lines), which eventually cemented the routes that would become familiar.  

[ZephyrOverland]

Johnny,

 

Has your question been answered?  If so, who is slated to ask the next question?

[Deggesty]

ZephyrOverland

Johnny,

 

Has your question been answered?  If so, who is slated to ask the next question?

 

Myron,Mark, I am sorry. I should have been more specific when responding to Mark's listing of the trains and the routing when he answered several days ago.

I could not answer at all yesterday, since I left Salt Lake City about 3:30 yesterday morning, and arrived in Chicago this afternoon. Amtrak just does not provide internet access to passengers on the California Zephyr, even when they have paid for their meals when they bought their space.

[KCSfan]

ZephyrOverland

Johnny,

Has your question been answered?  If so, who is slated to ask the next question?

Reading back I think Johnny may have considered me to have answered his question so I'll pose another one.

The name of this railroad always intrigued me but the information I've been able to find about it is a bit sketchy. The representation for this road in a 1910 OG states, "Logging road. No freight or passenger service". Since it was not a common carrier at the time, the fact that it even appears in the OG is unusual. The first portion built was narrow (3') gauge and motive power was Heislers and Shays. In 1917 it was acquired by a major city and the mayor of that city became its president. Under city ownership it was converted to standard gauge and extended to reach its ultimate destination. It operated as a common carrier of both freight and passengers from 1918 to 1925 when it reverted to hauling only materials and workers to a massive public works project being built by the city which owned it. It was abandoned in 1949. What was the name of this railroad and what city owned and operated it?

Mark

[narig01]

NOTICE of my error. Last week I posted a question about the oldest electric streetcar. As Dave Klepper pointed out 578 is not the oldest electric streetcar built as a streetcar. There is at least one or two older cars at the ShoreLine Trolley museum in Branford, Ct. http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/viewcar.pl?car=61 My apologies for the error. Rgds IGN

[FlyingCrow]

Mark...that would be the O'Shaugnhessy Dam project for the City of San Francisco.  The Hetch Hetchy Railroad.    I have the book by Ted Wurm.   All contractors and engineers should have it.

ABD

[KCSfan]

A+ Buck, you've nailed it. 

Mark

[FlyingCrow]

Well, as long as we are "on the subject" my question is..

What place billed itself as the RR Tie Capital of the World, but would find itself eventually buried by the construction of what dam?

 

[ZephyrOverland]

FlyingCrow

Well, as long as we are "on the subject" my question is..

What place billed itself as the RR Tie Capital of the World, but would find itself eventually buried by the construction of what dam?

 

 

Bagnell, Missouri

The Bagnell Dam that was built at the site, creating the Lake of the Ozarks reservoir. 

[FlyingCrow]

Give this man a CIGAR!      Very good, ZO...yours to continue!