Dave:
Thank you for the explanation. Next question to you.
Ed Burns
Central Vermont/CN and Rutland trains operating into Montreal on CN trackage rights carried RPOs across the border. Depending on the RPO contract they were locked at Rouses Point NY or Alburgh Vt. on the Rutland, and St Albans or Enosburgh Falls Vt. on the CV/CN. CN/Grand Trunk trains to Portland Me. carried CNR-owned RPOs with "United States Mail Railway Post Office" lettering on the sides to handle Island Pond Vt - Portland Me mail.
Soo Line's Winipeger also carried a locked RPO from Noyes to Winnipeg and back. RPO clerks got off at Noyes.
In the years immediately before Amtrak and possibly into the Amtrak era and operated by Amtrak, there were two or four pieces of passenger rolliing stock that were clearly single-level cars, but had been modified with false high roofs to match the double-deck cars operated with them. Railroad, names of trains, and reason, please.
I am sure that the U.S. Post Office did not want to pay the clerks for time that they could not work, so they detrained in Noyes--and waited from about six in the morning to about nine at night before going back to the Twin Cities. I hope there was a decent place for them to sleep in Noyes.
Johnny
C&NW had two 56-seat diners and two tavern-lounge cars modified with false roofs to match the 12 long-distance bilevels they got in 1958 for Flambeau 400 and Peninsula 400 service. They served in Milwaukee 400 service as well.
AT&SF modified six baggage-dormitories with Hi-level roof adapters for El Capitan service.
The C&NW cars are the four I was asking for. Their false roofs were full-length. If I recall correctly, the AT&SF cars were rather odd, with most of the roof at regular level, and then at the dorm end a tapered rise to match the high-level cars. Much like the front of the Talgos matching FP40 Amtrak locomotives. The long-distancNW and converted to regular commuter gallery cars. Wha happened to the two diners and two lounges?
And your question, certainly.
The diners and bar-lounges were scrapped in the early 1970s. The one full parlor car was converted to a commuter coach and lasted into Metra service. The Coach-Parlor and coach-lounge were rebuilt into "sip'n'Snack" cars in the early 1960s with 24 lower- and 12 upper-level cafe seats and a small kitchen in one end of the car. Both coach-cafes and all 10 full coaches were leased to and later bought by Amtrak, most retired and scrapped in the early 1990s. Two of the full coaches were converted to cab-coaches in the early 1980s. Arthur Dubin's "More Classic Trains" (Kalmbach 1974) has interior shots of the parlor and coach-lounge on pages 490 and 491. Other than wider seat spacing and more padding, not much difference in the coaches.
So here's a new question on Dave's subject: Santa Fe's first production Hi-Level coaches had three series, two with 68 seats and one larger series with 72 seats. Why the two 68-seat series?
rcdrye The diners and bar-lounges were scrapped in the early 1970s. The one full parlor car was converted to a commuter coach and lasted into Metra service. The Coach-Parlor and coach-lounge were rebuilt into "sip'n'Snack" cars in the early 1960s with 24 lower- and 12 upper-level cafe seats and a small kitchen in one end of the car. Both coach-cafes and all 10 full coaches were leased to and later bought by Amtrak, most retired and scrapped in the early 1990s. Two of the full coaches were converted to cab-coaches in the early 1980s. Arthur Dubin's "More Classic Trains" (Kalmbach 1974) has interior shots of the parlor and coach-lounge on pages 490 and 491. Other than wider seat spacing and more padding, not much difference in the coaches. So here's a new question on Dave's subject: Santa Fe's first production Hi-Level coaches had three series, two with 68 seats and one larger series with 72 seats. Why the two 68-seat series?
If I remember correctly, they each had a conductor's office. Rode the train.But possibly others did have the step-down as discussed above.
Johnny's on the right track. There were two groups of five each of the 68-seat cars, and 25 of the 72 seat cars.
Take Johnny's answer and then think about the 1960s and 1970s, when the El Capitan was combined with the Super Chief riding behind the Hi-Levels...
THE SUPER WAS A SINGLE LEVEL TRAIN. IF THE SUPER'S EQUIPMENT WAS AT THE FRONT OF THE TRAIN, THE BAGGAGE CARS COULD BE AT THE FRONT AND ONLY ONE STEPDOWN CAR WOULD BE REQUIRED. BUT IF THE BAGS WERE AT THE FRONT AND THE SUPER'S EQUIPMENT AT THE REAR, TWO STEPDOWN CARS WOULD BE REQUIRED PER TRAIN. I ASSUME THIS WAS THE CASE BECAUSE OF THE SPECIAL EL CAP BAG CARS WITH THE RISING UP CEILING TO MATCH THE HIGH LEVEL CARS AT THE REAR OF EACH BAG CAR.
STILL, JOHNNY IS TH E WINNER IF THE STEPS ARE THE REASON FOR THE REDUCTION IN SEATING CAPACITY.
Hi-Levels 528-532 had steps at the front, and 533-537 had steps at the back. The 1964 Hi-Levels had some convertible cars with steps that could be made all Hi-Level if desired.
Johnny, Dave deferred to you, so go for it.
Various photographs and personal observations indicated that the Super Chief/El Capitan and the Texas Chief had their hi-level coaches at the front of the consist. The San Francisco Chief may have had the same arrangement.
The Big Domes on the Texas Chief and SF Chief always sat right behind the Hi-Levels, with the diner and sleepers behind them. Each train of whatever kind had a transition car on the front and back of the Hi-Levels, meaning two Hi-Levels was the minimum. The pre-production test pair 526 and 527 always operated together before ending up in the pool.
When the El Cap ran separate, would it need steps down at the rear?
103 years ago, a certain railroad operated an overnight train which is described in the February, 1912, issue of Travelers Railway Guide Western Section as 'The ____ ________ night train between ___ and _______ Has become known as the "TRAIN THAT IS ALWAYS ON TIME."' This train took 10 hours and 20 minutes to travel the 238 miles in one direction and 10 hours to travel in the other direction. The name of the train had a connection with one of the two cities, it and carried "through Pullman cars." three years later, it had no name, and carried a tourist car. There was a competitor which was part of a much longer route (about 2000 miles)--and the name of the competing train is still in use.
Three years later, the train had no name
"When the El Cap ran separate, would it need steps down at the rear?"
Santa Fe preferred it that way. It made switching at the endpoints easier, since the carmen could climb up the end instead of going through the car. It also made it possible to add conventional coaches if needed, though the full twelve car set (2x bagg/exp, bag-dorm transition, step-up coach, two coaches, diner, lounge, three coaches, step-down) seated almost 500. There was a Drumhead that rode the rear car, at least while it still ran as 21 and 22.
The "Train that is always on time" was the "Davy Crockett" of the San Antonio and Aransas Pass, which carried through Pullmans from San Antonio to Houston on a zig-zag route that more or less parallelled SP's Texas and New Orleans, where the still-operating "Sunset Limited" ran. Davy Crockett died at the Alamo, which was the San Antonio link.
From what little I can find it looks like the liesurely schedule included a long stop in the middle of the night to swap a San Antonio-Brownsville Pullman for a Brownsville-Houston car.
The SA&AP competed with the San Antonio Uvalde and Gulf which was part of the Frisco and later of the MoPac systems. SP's T&NO picked up the pieces, all but a couple of which have been abandoned. Pasenger service lasted long enough for T&NO to get a bunch of passenger GP9s, which either went to SP proper or went quickly into freight service. SA&AP's bankruptcys left behind a legacy of expensive directors' cars and the failure of the New York Locomotive works.
Well done.
The Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio's route btween Houston and San Antonio is 210 miles long--and the westbound Sunset took 7:10 and the eastbound took 8:00--2-3 hours faster than Davy ran. The stop in Kenedy, where the Corpus Christi car was added/taken off, was half an hour westbound and fifteen minutes eastbound; the San Antonio-Corpus Christi car sat for more than three hours in each direction--giving Houston-Corpus Christi (no through car) service. I wonder if the cowcatchers on the engines had much business.
Concerning the SAUsaGe--it did not exist when the guide I referred to was published. Railroad Names, by William D. Edson, shows that it came into existence in February of 1912, and its predecessor was the Crystal City & Uvalde, which ran from Carrizo Springs to Uvalde Junction (completely abandoned now). It apparently was incorporated in February of 1912--and it was absorbed into the MoP in 1956. The February, 1915, Guide shows it with through service San Antonio-Corpus Christi, Uvalde Junction-Crystal City, and San Antonio-Carrizo Springs. It really sprang into action in those three years. There may have been other predecessor roads, but the book I have does not show them.
It looks like the SA&AP's first bankruptcy was in 1890 since most of the luxury equipment that led to the bankruptcy had platforms on both ends. Jay Gould couldn't resist buying the car "Electric" for his use as a Western Union director. SP got control after the bankruptcy, was forced to divest in 1903, regained control in 1924 and merged it into the T&NO in 1934.
This train was the only "400" to carry sleeping cars on a regular basis.
How about the Dakota "400"? It carried a 12 section, 2 bedroom sleeper between Mankato and Rapid City. The train was advertised as being a streamliner--but I doubt that the sleeper was streamlined.
Correct. The Dakota 400 carried the heavywight until the C&NW dropped "City" trains, then it got a prewar "American" 6 sec 6 Rmt 4 DBR. Photos from 1959 show a "Northern" 16 DupRmt 3DBR 1Cpt car, but I'm not sure if that was regularly assigned. The Dakota 400 ran from Chicago to Rapid City from 1950-1953, to Huron until 1960.
I am puzzled; Webster's Third International Dictionary gives two definitions of "wight"--a man, or a preternatural creature such as a fairy or witch. Which kind of heavywight did the train carry? I usually think of a "wight" as being an undesirable creature to have around.
I first wrote "usually" as usua;;y."
Give me a little time, and I will come up with another question.
It was a "heavywight" trying to pretend to be a streamlined sleeper.
What road operated a through coach between two points that were about 431 miles apart--and the westernmost 90 miles were in a mixed train that ran on trackage rights to reach a major city? At the eastern end, it connected from/to two trains, each one of which had an important city as its eastern terminus; one of the two trains continued southwest to a junction with another road, but did not go past that junction. Name the road, the host road, the junction points, and the major cities.
A little help here... Could you give us a year or at least a decade?
Try March of 1953.
I'm working this one as hard as I can. CRI&P had 90 miles of UP trackage rights to get to Denver, but ran Rockets, not mixed trains. And I haven't found a line with enough miles sporting a mixed train.
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